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New Day
Carly Fiorina on the Big Stage; Reviewing Performances at Last Night's GOP Debate; Fact Checking Debate Claims. Aired 5:30-6a ET
Aired September 17, 2015 - 05:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[05:29:51] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to this special post-debate edition of NEW DAY. Or as we like to call it, Michaela, SAME DAY.
(LAUGHTER)
CAMEROTA: There hasn't been a lot of sleeping. It is September 17th and we are live here in Simi Valley, California, at the Reagan Library. Michaela is in New York for us.
So how did Donald Trump do last night? Well, there are different conclusions after last night's bruising three-hour debate on CNN. And Trump's rivals came out swinging.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. As predicted, the race changed last night. What's the name that everybody is saying? Donald Trump? No. Carly Fiorina. Could she make it on the big stage? Make it? She owned it at times. Jeb Bush, he needed to have a big night. Did he? It seems that the field will be shuffled after last night.
Let's find out how. Beginning our comprehensive coverage of debate, Mr. John Berman. J.B.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR, "EARLY START": You know, you walk through the library here this morning and it feels like the morning after the battle. You know, everything strewn about. I was looking for limbs on the ground to see if anyone was really torn apart. And to extend the battle metaphor, these candidates went in with a strategy to win. Some people succeeded. Others? Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BERMAN (voice-over): From nearly the minute the debate started, Donald Trump was the man in the middle. The middle of a pile-on.
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: His visceral response to attack people on their appearance. Short, tall, fat, ugly. My goodness. That happened in junior high.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I never attacked him on his look, and believe me, there is plenty of subject matter right there. That I can tell you.
BERMAN: There was Trump v. Paul, Trump v. Fiorina about the "Rolling Stone" article where he talked about her face.
CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think women all over this country heard very clearly what Mr. Trump said.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: I think she's got a beautiful face and I think she's a beautiful woman.
BERMAN: No, she did not seem impressed. Nor was Jeb in Trump v. Bush. The subject: remarks Trump once made accusing Bush of being soft on immigration because his wife was born in Mexico.
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I hope you apologize for that, Donald.
TRUMP: Well, I have to tell you, I hear phenomenal things. I hear your wife is a lovely woman. I don't know her.
BUSH: She is. She's fantastic.
TRUMP: And this is a total mischaracterization --
BUSH: She's absolutely love of my life and she's right here.
TRUMP:
BUSH: And why don't you apologize to her right now.
TRUMP: No, I won't do that because I said nothing wrong. But I do hear she's a lovely woman.
BERMAN: The 11 candidates were begging our moderator for their chance to get in the game.
PAUL: Jake, Jake. Jake.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Jake.
FIORINA: Jake.
BERMAN: All of the need to break through. Carly Fiorina, the newcomer to the main debate stage, touched the crowd with a reference to sting videos targeting Planned Parenthood.
FIORINA: Anyone who has watched this videotape, I dare Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, to watch these tapes. Watch a fully formed fetus on the table. Its heart beating. Its legs kicking. While someone says we have to keep it alive to harvest its brain.
BERMAN: Marco Rubio flashed passion and knowledge on foreign policy.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The number one issue that a president will ever confront and the most important obligation that the federal government has is to keep this nation safe. And today we are not doing that. We are eviscerating our military and we have a president that is more respectful to the Ayatollah in Iran than he is to the prime minister of Israel.
BERMAN: While Trump and Fiorina flashed their business backgrounds in a tit for CEO tat.
FIORINA: And I led Hewlett-Packard through a very difficult time, the worst technology recession in 25 years.
TRUMP: She can't run my of my companies. That I can tell you.
FIORINA: You ran up mountains of debt as well as losses using other people's money. Yand you were forced to file bankruptcy.
TRUMP: I've made over $10 billion.
BERMAN: So what? Who cares? says Governor Chris Christie.
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The fact is that we don't want to hear about your careers. Back and forth and volleying back and forth about who did well and who did poorly. You're both successful people. Congratulations.
BERMAN: The debate did have lighter moments or higher as the case may be.
BUSH: 40 years ago, I smoked marijuana, and I admit it. I'm sure that other people might have done and may not want to say it in front of 25 million people. My mom's not happy that I just did.
BERMAN: The big laughs came with Bush and Trumps's proposed presidential code names.
BUSH: Ever Ready. It's very high energy, Donald.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: Humble.
(LAUGHTER)
BERMAN: And not to be outpartied, Lindsey Graham, who made waves in the first debate with some hard edged anti-terror policy.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDDIATE: I have a plan to destroy radical Islam because it has to be. These are religious Nazis running wild.
BERMAN: He also came out for hard liquor.
GRAHAM: That's the first thing I'll do as president. We're going to drink more.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BERMAN (on camera): Now people we haven't mentioned in the debate -- Ben Carson, Scott Walker, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee. And that in and of itself is telling. It shows you just how hard it is to break through in a debate with so many candidates.
CUOMO: All right, so now this is the point of figuring out what happened last night, what it means. All right, so please, stay with us, J.B., will you?
[05:35:00] Let's bring in big brains on this situation. We have CNN national political reporter Maeve Reston and CNN senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny. Maeve, let me start with you because I have been leaning on you about Carly Fiorina. And you said don't worry about her making it on the big stage; worry about anybody else being able to keep pace with her. What did you see last night that showed her at her best but also revealed a concern about her going forward?
MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, I think that what's so fascinating about that performance was the strong moments for Carly Fiorina. I mean, she really blew people away at various points. But you also saw what is her biggest vulnerability emerge, and we know, have seen that here in California. And that is her record at HP. Trump came after her really hard on that. And Democrats did as well. And there's just so much oppo out there about that. And she hasn't really had to deal with that yet in this campaign. And last night we saw the first beginning of that last night, and it really could see her slide as more of that record starts to come out.
CAMEROTA: Also, Jeff, I mean, she got more zingers and more one- liners and more applause line than anybody. The crowd clapped for Carly Fiorina's lines more than they did the other candidates, but her demeanor, I mean, it didn't sort of -- the tenor never changed.
RESTON: Hard.
CAMEROTA: It was hard, and she wasn't smiling. She wasn't cracking jokes. What was your impression?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: That she was serious. And she had command of that stage from the get-go. This is the same Carly Fiorina that we see out there campaigning. She's been drawing big crowds in Iowa and New Hampshire. This was her chance to be on a big stage and show that she belongs there. Her command of foreign policy and her grasp of things far exceeded a lot of her rivals on that stage. It's one of the reasons that Donald Trump sort of receded to the background. She knows her issues. This was the Hugh Hewitt radio interview that we talked about a few weeks ago coming to life on television. She's ready for the job.
So I think the HP stuff aside, I think she did herself very, very good last night. Her stock rises last night more than anybody else.
RESTON: Oh absolutely.
CUOMO: Well, that will be interesting to see because I really think the theme of the night was survival. You know, this is not about who wins the situation. People are going to have more attrition just like Governor Perry. Now, one of the moments that we were all looking forward to last night
was how Carly Fiorina would deal with what Donald Trump said about her in "Rolling Stone". And she did it in a way that may have taken some people off guard, especially Donald Trump. Take aListen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FIORINA: You know, it's interesting to me. Mr. Trump said that he heard Mr. Bush very clearly in what Mr. Bush said. I think women all over this country heard very clearly what Mr. Trump said.
(CHEERS & APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: I think she's got a beautiful face and I think she's a beautiful woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Now, let's look at it from a plus/minus perspective. J.B., in terms of how she handled it, but then also the look on her face when Trump was trying to make light of it and move on. What did you see?
BERMAN: Oh, I mean, I think the look was everything. The look after was almost as important as the word she used when she said it. And she knew that was coming and that was one of her planned lines.
I actually think her entire performance was a plan that was executed very well. She was never off message or off plan. And I think that's what we might see as a problem going forward for her when she has to go off script.
Donald Trump maybe blushed a little bit there. And that may be the first time I have ever seen him look maybe sheepish. But at the same time, I don't think it was knockout blow from Carly Fiorina to Donald Trump. He said what he said and then he moved on.
CAMEROTA: Yes, but she just let it hang. Her timing. She just let it hang out there after she made her line.
RESTON: I mean that was just one of those moments where you gasp in the debate. It was such a strong, disciplined moment for her. Showed how she's able to just hold perfectly for the timing.
I also thought that his comeback, just as a woman, did not land.
CUOMO: They groaned in the spin room where we were.
RESTON: Yes.
BERMAN: But look, it was the same thing as the original comment to begin with. I mean, here's a guy who had the --
RESTON: But that mistake, right? I mean, he almost doubled down with that comment.
BERMAN: If you're a normal human being judging it, yes. But if you're Trump in Trump world, in Trump's head, the same kind of guy who make those comments to begin with, that's how he justifies it.
ZELENY: But this is a moment that was done -- the "Rolling Stone" article was done print. This was live in live television, real-time. So many people saw that. And she's right, what she said. Women were watching, and they were watching in droves last night. We're already seeing women in Iowa, New Hampshire, these Republican activists, that didn't play well with them guaranteed.
BERMAN: But weren't they watching when Trump went after Megyn Kelly? Weren't they watching everything he said after that?
ZELENY: I think it's a different scenario, watching them in the split screen there.
CUOMO: And I'll tell you, it's not over either. Because I was on stage when that debate ended. And there was more glad handing after this debate than there was after the first one. And I was there when Carly Fiorina was addressed by Mr. Trump. He put out his hand, took a moment. She reached out, shook his hand, she said, "Good luck, Mr. Tump." And turned around.
[06:40:00] He was looking to talk to her a little bit; it wasn't happening. She turned around and she got out of there.
CAMEROTA: So what about Jeb Bush? We all were looking -- watching Jeb Bush because he announced that he was going to have a stronger performance and he was going to go after Donald Trump. Did he deliver, Jeff?
ZELENY: I think he did by the end of the night. In total, he may have. But, boy, it took him a long time to get there. His advisors -- this is always the risk when advisers say he's going to be sharp and aggressive. It seemed like it took him a while to sort of rev up. But the end, in the sum total, I think he did. He landed a few punches, and that moment with his wife, Colomba Bush, I thought was very powerful. And she said --
RESTON: Well --
CUOMO: You thought that helped him or hurt him?
ZELENY: Well, I thought he was weak in the moment, but overall, the -- when he was bringing her into this. And then she tweeted right after it.
CUOMO: Let's watch it and then we'll attack Jeff's assessment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Did Mr. Trump go too far in invoking your wife?
BUSH: He did. He did. You're proud of your family just as I am.
TRUMP: Correct. BUSH: To subject my wife into the middle of a raucous political
conversation was completely inappropriate and I hope you apologize for that, Donald.
TRUMP: Well, I have to say to you, I hear phenomenal things. I hear wife is a lovely woman.
BUSH: She is. She's fantastic.
TRUMP: I don't know her and this is a total mischaracterization --
BUSH: She's absolutely the love of my life and she's right here.
TRUMP: Good, good.
BUSH: And why don't you apologize for her right now?
TRUMP: No, I won't do that because I said nothing wrong. But I do hear she's a lovely woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: Some people saw that as cringeworthy.
ZELENY: Perhaps, but look at the smile on Jeb Bush's face. I think he handled that OK. But a few minutes later she tweeted out, or someone on the staff tweeted out under her account, "I came to America because I love this country. Donald Trump is wrong."
An aide told me afterward, this is the beginning of a new engagement for her in the campaign. She's going to be out a lot more talking about this. Jeb Bush, he wasn't perfect there. Maybe looked a little bit weak. But I think overall, that was a bad moment for Donald Trump.
BERMAN: Let me give you the bizarro world reinterpretation of that moment. If you're asking someone to apologize to your wife, for -- you have to follow through. You have to either make it happen or you have to raise the stakes. Jeb was like apologize to her, apologize to her. Trump's like I'm not going to. And Jeb's like OK then, that's fine.
CUOMO: Yes, I got to tell you -- Maeve, how did it play to you? We'll end on this for this particular moment. Because the test for Jeb Bush was "I'm as strong as Trump. Watch. We're shoulder to shoulder." Was this and other examples last night proof that he didn't get it done?
CAMEROTA: Quickly.
RESTON: I think it was very uneven. But he had some very strong moments that were what his donors were looking for, certainly.
CAMEROTA: Maeve, Jeff, John, thanks so much. Great way to start all of our comprehensive coverage. Coming up on NEW DAY at the 7:00, in the 7:00 Eastern hour, we will
speak to Carly Fiorina about her performance in last night's debate. We will also speak to New Jersey governor Chris Christie about how he fared.
CUOMO: Carly Fiorina smiling there, didn't see it last night.
Also we're going to hear from a Democratic contender Bernie Sanders. What did he hear last night? Does he think that it makes it better for him?
So we all know now, Alisyn, the reviews are in. What do you think?
CAMEROTA: Well, many people say that Carly Fiorina stole the show. That was what a lot of people inside the hall was saying. But how did all of the other candidates do? And will the debate push anyone to drop out of the race? We will debate all of that next.
CUOMO: You have it? I'd like to read it before we do it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[05:46:52] TAPPER: Are you saying that you have the knowledge to be the president that Mr. Trump does not have?
RUBIO: Well, you should ask him questions in detail about the foreign policy issues our president will confront. Because you better be able to lead on the first day. Not six months from now, not a year from now: on the first day in office, our president could very well confront a national security crisis. You can't predict it. Sometimes you can't control it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: Every candidate had some memorable moments last night and that was one by Marco Rubio.
So we're joined again by CNN Anchor John Berman, CNN nationalpolitical reporter Maeve Reston, and CNN senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny. Let's talk about Marco Rubio, Maeve. People gave him high marks.
RESTON: Really strong night for Marco Rubio. He really showed that polish that he has as a candidate. And as Jeff and I were just saying, at every -- every question, he found a way to steer it back to his personal narrative, give people more bio, really polished answers. Showed the gravitas on foreign policy that he's been working on for many years. I think that a lot of people will come away from that debate who haven't seen him as much saying, whoa, OK, maybe this could be my guy.
ZELENY: I think that's right. Marco Rubio is the leading Plan B candidate, sort of the second choice. You may not love him now, but he has done nothing yet in any of these debates to say, gosh, it's disqualifying. I thought he had a very, very good night. And on that English/Spanish section, he went after Donald Trump I thought more effectively than Jeb Bush.
RESTON: Killed it.
ZELENY: He said it is OK if I speak Spanish here. And he introduced himself again to so many people. So Marco Rubio's stock is also rising. Slower than others but it's still -- I thought he had a good night.
CUOMO: Maeve used the G word. Gravitas. I felt that that's -- the buzz I was hearing last night is that that's still an open issue for him, whether or not he had it. He also did a great recovery last night. His opening line bombed. "I brought my own water bottle." You remember his whole -- with the water bottle. That bomb. But he recovered nicely. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes when they know that, they go down early.
BERMAN: It could have been a long three hours.
CUOMO: But the G word. What does he have to do to really show that he is not the kid on the panel?
BERMAN: He's doing it. Look, he has a comfort when talking about foreign policy, which is an issue that he's taken up in Senate, worked hard on it for these years, and he talks about it whenever he can. I think he has also shown more discipline than any candidate in the field. He doesn't need to overreach in these debates. He doesn't actually need any memorable moment that we talk about at length. He needs to finish top four or five, and he can do it for three months, and he's going to be in this the whole time, and he wants to be there in February as your first, second or third choice.
RESTON: And that was the goal; his advisers were very clear about that going in. It wasn't the same thing that you heard from Jeb Bush's people, that he had to go in there and have an aggressive punching night. Rubio just wanted to be Rubio; he did that and pulled it off well.
ZELENY: So much more skilled than Barack Obama, a young, freshman senator from Illinois, on the Foreign Relations Committe. At this point, Senator Obama was terrible in these debates. Not that it matters, but Marco Rubio is -- he's good.
CAMEROTA: Let's talk about Dr. Ben Carson. Lots of eyes were on him last night. And he made a quip about Donald Trump. So listen to this moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm in favor of vaccines. Do them over a longer period of time. Same amount. But just in little sections.
[05:50:05] TAPPER: Dr. Carson.
TRUMP: And I think you're going to have, I think you're going to see a big impact on autism.
TAPPER: Dr. Carson, you just heard his medical take.
DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's an OK doctor.
(LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE)
CARSON: But, you know, the fact of the matter is, we have extremely well documented proof that there is no autism associated with vaccinations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: Jeff, that was a good moment for Dr. Carson.
ZELENY: A great moment. I mean, he used humor. He came to life. There were moments you sort of forgot he was on stage. But doing things like that reminded you that he is. I was still wanting a little bit more policy throughout the debate, a little bit more substance from Ben Carson. I didn't hear a ton of it. But that was great. He handled Trump well.
CUOMO: He's got to grow also. Did the Trump/Bush moment about him asking for casinos in Florida, was that a big deal for you guys? If it was, I'll play it for the audience. If you didn't think it really blew up --
RESTON: I mean, I just didn't think that Bush pulled it off in that moment.
CUOMO: Judge for yourself. Let's play -- they don't have it. Anyway, you sum, you know what he said. Bush said he came, he tried to buy casinos from me, Trump, that Trump wanted it there. Play it for the audience. Let's see what they say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The one guy that had some special interests that I know of that tried to get me to change my views on something, that was generous and gave me money, was Donald Trump. He wanted casino gambling in Florida.
TRUMP: I did not.
BUSH: Yes, you did.
TRUMP: Totally false.
BUSH: You wanted it and you didn't get it.
TRUMP: I would've gotten it.
BUSH: Because I was opposed to casino gambling before, during and after.
TRUMP: I promise I would've gotten it. BUSH: And that's not -- I'm not going to be bought by anyone.
TRUMP: I promise, if I wanted it, I would've gotten it.
BUSH: No way.
TRUMP: I know my people.
BUSH: Not even possible.
TRUMP: I know my people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Maeve threw water on me on this, but I felt like this is the one moment where Jeb was like, nope, you're wrong. This is what happened. I got you.
BERMAN: I'm going to go with Maeve on this one more than you. The issue is, look, Bush is more right than Trump here. Trump wanted casinos in Florida. Bush did not want casinos in Florida. Trump donated to Bush. But the bottom line there is, in that exchange, Trump just brushed it off. Sorry, little man. We're going to move on from the discussion. Even when Jeb is right.
And on Ben Carson, I want to bring up a point.
CAMEROTA: Quickly.
BERMAN: He wasn't part of this debate all that much. He really wasn't. He didn't break through. But he wasn't in the first debate either and his poll numbers shot up like 20 points, so maybe that's what he wants.
CUOMO: Well, we'll see soon enough.
CAMEROTA: Great job, guys. Thanks so much for all of the analysis. Of course we'll check back in.
CUOMO: I thought that was a little personal when you said move on, little man.
BERMAN: It was.
CUOMO: But I'm going to take your advice. A lot of backpatting and backstabbing also during the three hours tonight. So it was sweeter and more sour than the back (ph). What do we see in terms of truth and twisting that truth? Fact checking. Coming up. SAME DAY continuing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[05:56:49] CUOMO: Welcome back to SAME DAY, as an Alisyn calls it, because we've been up all night. And I'll tell you what, a lot of facts and figures thrown around last night. Not all of them 100 percent in truthiness. So let's bring back our man John Berman. What did you hear last night? What made it? What didn't make it?
BERMAN: As both of you well know, one way to tick off Donald Trump is to talk about bankruptcy. So both Carly Fiorina and Scott Walker brought up the issue of Donald Trump and the bankruptcies. Watch the sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You took four major projects into bankruptcy over and over and over again. You can't take America into bankruptcy.
FIORINA: You were forced to file bankruptcy not once, not twice --
TRUMP: I never filed for bankruptcy.
FIORINA: -- four times. A record four times
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So you filed for bankruptcy there. That is the claim from Carly Fiorina. So here's the deal. The truth is Donald Trump filed --his businesses filed for bankruptcy four times, including casino properties around Atlantic City. But as Trump notes all the time, he never filed for personal bankruptcies. It seem to be very important to him. And those companies were allowed to restructure and stay in business while shedding debt. So the claim, if the claim from Carly Fiorina was Trump, you filed bankruptcy, that's false.
Now, Donald Trump, as we discussed, butt heads with Jeb Bush over casino gambling in Florida. Bush claimed that Trump tried to push Florida to change the gambling laws so he could build casinos. Listen again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: You wanted casino gambling in Florida.
TRUMP: I did not.
BUSH: Yes, you did.
TRUMP: Totally false.
BUSH: You wanted it and you didn't get it.
TRUMP: I would've gotten it.
BUSH: Because I was opposed to casino gambling before, during and after.
TRUMP: I promise I would've gotten it.
BUSH: And that's not -- I'm not going to be bought by anyone.
TRUMP: I promise -- (END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So Bush is right here. While Trump may never have personally lobbied for casino gambling in Florida, he had lobbyists do it on his behalf. He also --
CAMEROTA: That's a loophole.
BERMAN: He also threw a fundraiser for Bush in 1998. He gave the Florida Republican Party $50,00. But upon taking office, Bush did stick to his stance against gambling and the casinos that Trump wanted never materialized in Florida.
Now, another controversial topic throughout the night was Planned Parenthood and should it be defunded. Senator Ted Cruz went as far as to accuse Planned Parenthood of breaking the law.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: On these videos, Planned Parenthood also essentially confesses to multiple felonies. It s a felony with ten years jail time to sell the body parts of unborn children for profit. That's what these videos show Planned Parenthood doing.
(END VIVDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Whether or not the videos are offensive are a separate issue here, but the claim that it's against the law, Ted Cruz there is false. In the videos, Planned Parenthood executives repeatedly state that when their clinics donate fetal issue from abortions, the money covers costs, but does not generate profit. And industry experts do tell CNN and factcheck.com the prices were mentioned, $30 to $100, it does not represent a profit.
CAMEROTA: Interesting to break it all down, because they made a lot of claims out there. But it's good to look at the facts too.
BERMAN: When there are facts.
CAMEROTA: Right, exactly. Thanks, John.
CUOMO: Well, and that was just a taste. There was a lot said last night. This race changed because of the debate. We have a lot more continuing coverage. So let's get right to it. Shall we?
CAMEROTA: Let's.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FIORINA: This is about changing the system.
[06:00:00] TRUMP: First of all, I want to build a wall. Rand Paul shouldn't even be on this stage.
