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New Poll: Clinton Leads in Key Swing States; Russia Willing to Cooperate with U.S. on Syria Airstrikes; Cargo Ship Owners: Captain Had 'Sound Plan' for Storm; More Trouble Ahead for Storm-Ravaged S.C. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired October 07, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A brand-new poll shows some good news for frontrunner Hillary Clinton.

[05:58:39] HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm fighting for what I think is important for our country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Democrats want to know if Joe Biden is going to get into this race.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact of the matter is he has to make a decision quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Russia launching new airstrikes in Syria.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The White House is left with few options.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: ISIS doesn't team to be the main target.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Russia should not be interfering.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Russia now firmly owns the actions of the Assad regime.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can see where the water is covering over that road right there.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: The record volume of flood water still making its way downstreams.

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Now it's time to assess the damage.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY, with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Wednesday, October 7, 6 a.m. in the East. We have telling new numbers that give fresh insight into the 2016 race. Just ahead of next week's big CNN Democratic debate. Three key swing states, Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania. Pretty picture for Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton.

Also, though, we're going to get into the big difference between these states and her struggles in Iowa and New Hampshire. What's the difference? Could it be new information about certain personal traits? We'll get into that.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Here to break down the numbers, chew on them a little bit and how the GOP field is stacking up, CNN political analyst and presidential campaign correspondent for the "New York Times," Maggie Haberman; and CNN political commentator and political anchor for New York One, Errol Louis.

You had a chance to look at the numbers. Let's look at the first ones right off the bat. Quinnipiac University poll. Democrats' choice for nominee, I think we can pull it up. Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, Clinton coming out strong.

What's your thoughts, Errol?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It looks like Clinton has had sort of a reputation. She's run in those states before. I didn't see Sanders making a lot of appearances in those states. Biden, of course, is completely on the sidelines. Some of this, I think, reflects her just kind of being a known quantity, building an organization, showing some interest in these states.

Let's also keep in mind that, when Sanders jumped in, I mean, he didn't say he was going to put together a 50-state organization right away. We've been talking about all the money that he's raised. As he starts to spend it, perhaps he'll make more of an impact. But you don't see him, you know, sort of campaigning around in Sarasota, in Tampa, and going through the I-4 corridor. That could change. He's got a boost now. He's got some numbers. But for now, this is still Clinton's race to lose.

CUOMO: GOP. This is giving some fuel to the Trump fire about why are you people saying that I'm on the way done? Take a -- down? Look at these. There's now and there's August. OK. Trump up in Florida. OK.

Really interesting, Maggie, is look at Rubio and Bush in their home state. Ohio, Trump on top, now and do we have a comparison? Up again. This is why he was getting so inflamed about people saying when are you getting ready to drop out? And you see, look, other people have moved more. But they've also moved more down. Look at Kasich in his own state. So when you see these numbers, what do they mean to you, Maggie?

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: They mean to me that, as you say, Donald Trump is not going to be going anywhere for a while. Because he sees no reason to go anywhere for a while.

There has been a remarkable staying power to Donald Trump in a lot of these polls. People -- political watchers who have been looking at races for years, most of them thought by now his numbers would have started coming down, just based on all of these factors, his fights in debates, the comments he's made, issues that he's gotten involved in.

His base is very, very solid for now. That could change. But for now, he is sucking all the oxygen out of this race. That is clearly going to continue well into next month. We have one more debate at the end of the month.

CUOMO: He says that the reason people say he's going to get out is because there's bias against him. The only objective criterion that sets against that, Errol, is his built-in negative. What is the significance of having a high built-in negative?

LOUIS: It's a very high built-in negative, like 60-plus percent with these unfavorable views. I mean, the down side of it is that another way to look at these polls is that, yes, he's holding firm in the 20 percent range. But he's not moving up. He's not going out, but he's not going up.

PEREIRA: Please try and help me understand that. How can you have such high, unfavorable numbers. And both of them, I don't know if we can pull up Clinton's. Hers are high, as well, in Florida, 51 percent; Ohio, 56 percent; Pennsylvania, 54 percent. Both of them are leading the polls, Maggie. It just -- just -- it defies logic in my brain.

HABERMAN: It is unusual except if you look at what happened in the midterms last year. You had a lot of candidates in Senate races and gubernatorial races, where they had higher unfavorable ratings than they had approval ratings. And you -- I think the toxicity in terms of the conversation, in terms of politics right now is very high. And it is sort of bringing down all boats, for lack of a better way of putting it.

In terms of Clinton and Trump, those are the two people who get the most media coverage.

PEREIRA: Sure.

HABERMAN: That's just the way it is. And there's been obviously extensive coverage of Hillary Clinton's e-mail use, that was going to bring up anybody's negatives.

CUOMO: But she had built-in negatives coming in. I think with Trump we're learning. There's an evolution of him as a candidate and what he means to the process. This was always the gamble with Hillary, is that she would have a very big base support. Women would be potentially energized in the Democrat and independent spaces like never before. But she's a Clinton, and that means things that are often negative for people. She came into it with this.

HABERMAN: She was not upside-down before. I mean, this is after -- since she got into the race. It's changed.

CUOMO: That's true. But outside the race and in the race are always different.

HABERMAN: Sure.

CUOMO: Even with Joe Biden, you're going to see, if he gets in, his numbers are going to -- are going to change rapidly.

HABERMAN: Do I think there is a -- yes, being a candidate is very different from not being a candidate. In terms of these further along states, to Errol's point, these are not states where you've seen other candidates organizing yet. And these later states in primaries tend to follow what happens in the early states.

PEREIRA: Give us a little historical perspective, though, because again, we are a few days out -- like, we're a few days out from the election, obviously.

CUOMO: Yes.

PEREIRA: So these numbers could change drastically.

LOUIS: Dramatically.

PEREIRA: And we've seen that happen before. Our business is to crunch through them, each poll that comes out. But that's an important thing to consider at this point.

LOUIS: Absolutely. Listen, it's about -- when you're asked in a poll, if the election were held today, which of these candidates would you vote for? Well, if the list gets smaller and smaller, people's calculations change.

And just because people have an unfavorable view of Hillary Clinton, if you're a die-hard Democrat, if you go into the booth, and that's one of only two or three names that you got to pick from, well, you know, maybe you hold your nose and maybe you cast that vote.

[06:05:08] The other thing to keep in mind, and this, I think, gets to your interview yesterday with Donald Trump, is that, if you're at 20 percent, 25 percent, 28 percent, what it also means is that 7 out of 10 Republicans don't want you.

CUOMO: That's what it proves. Is that there may be a built-in ceiling for him.

HABERMAN: Sure.

CUOMO: That's the objective criterion of challenge for him. You know, polls, we keep saying it on the show, and I think it's important to remind people, we like fresh numbers. You do, too. But they're just a moment in time.

PEREIRA: They are a moment in time.

They are.

CUOMO: And you look at that moment in time, not what it's going to mean dispositively, but right now.

PEREIRA: But it can create some momentum.

CUOMO: They absolutely do, especially if you're low.

HABERMAN: But they -- they don't -- they mean less this far out. We're going to see...

CUOMO: Sure.

HABERMAN: They're going to mean much the closer you get to the Iowa caucuses.

CUOMO: But they mean more for the people who may not be able to stay in. You need to show some momentum. That's the Jeb Bush issue.

LOUIS: The unfavorables mean a lot, too. I mean, they want to -- they're going to have to get to the bottom of why people think that Clinton is untrustworthy or they don't like her and so forth. They're going to have to try and figure out what they're going to do about those people. Now, they can, because it is the Clinton style.

CUOMO: What's easier to fix, Clinton's built-in negative or Trump's built-in negative.

LOUIS: Clinton's.

CUOMO: Easier to fix?

LOUIS: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Even with all the years and the exposure?

LOUIS: Well, she's -- first of all, she doesn't have 12 people coming after her. She also has a lot of experience and a big track record that she can sort of call on allies. She's got her husband, who's one of the best campaigners in the business. She's got a lot of different ways to change this.

PEREIRA: Let's cover (ph) a little bit, Ben Carson asked about the shooting in Oregon; and we have some sound that we can play. And I'm really curious your reaction on what you hear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess there's an implication that you're saying that the students didn't do enough to save themselves?

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I just said nothing about them. I said what I would do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you say what you would do?

CARSON: I would -- I would ask everybody to attack the gunman, because he can only shoot one of us at a time. That way we don't all wind up dead. (END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: He was on "The View" yesterday, and he said, "I wouldn't have just sat there and let him shoot me, at least we wouldn't have all wound up dead" and had -- and laughed. And that caused great consternation, and the Twittersphere kind of erupted. He followed it up with that sound you just saw.

Maggie, your thoughts.

HABERMAN: I think this is not something that you tend to hear a lot from candidates. I think the Republican field in general has struggled with how to react to these mass shootings. And we've seen a bunch offer the summer. But I think the Oregon one seems to have presented people with the hardest. You saw Jeb Bush really struggle last week with answering it.

You know, and while people argue his stuff happens, quote was taken out of context, he was making the broader point that he thinks there should not be changes in gun laws. And when you hear what Ben Carson is saying, that is not something you typically hear a politician say or, you know, or an elected official say in response to a mass shooting.

CUOMO: But it's also what he represents that many people are attracted to.

HABERMAN: It is.

CUOMO: Which is this is where a lot of people's common-sense brains take them. If someone is going to try to kill you, do what you can at the moment. The laugh at the end is what he's getting beaten up for, Errol. But a little bit of that, him trying to diffuse the situation and move on.

LOUIS: A little bit tying to diffuse it. You know, it could even be a nervous tick. You know, this is not somebody who spent his whole life campaigning for office. Maybe he doesn't realize exactly how inappropriate that sounds and that feels.

But there's also this issue -- and this is, I think, a core sort of policy difference between the Republicans and the Democrats in this race, is that, you know, this whole notion that we should be arming kindergarten teachers, because they're going to have a shootout over their 5-year-olds.

You know, it sounds -- it sounds crazy, because it sounds like this is coming from people who have never met a kindergarten teacher. You know, I mean, this is -- this is just not a realistic way to solve a very important public problem. I think Republicans are sort of giving away a lot of issues with that kind of callous talk. It's cringe-worthy. I mean, it just -- it just doesn't sound like it makes any sense.

PEREIRA: My mother is a kindergarten teacher, and you just changed my whole image of her just now with that one thought. My goodness.

CUOMO: I've met your mother, though. She would not need a gun in a situation like that.

LOUIS: Raised eyebrows.

PEREIRA: Absolutely. It's worked for many years for me.

Maggie, Errol, always a pleasure.

CUOMO: New numbers, we love to have them.

PEREIRA: We do.

CUOMO: But again, the polls are only as good as the input data from the people who are being polled. And that comes from debates. And guess what? We're just about six days away from the first Democratic debate, hosted by CNN and...

PEREIRA: Better bank some sleep, fellow.

CUOMO: I know, right?

CUOMO: ... and Facebook. It's in Vegas. I've got my skinny jeans and velvet smoking jacket ready. Next Tuesday, October 13 -- don't hate. Eight-thirty p.m. Eastern, 8:30 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. And it's all about you. If you've got a question you'd like to ask during the Democratic debate, head over to CNN's Facebook page or record a short video for Instagram using the hashtag #demdebate.

PEREIRA: I don't need to hate. Vegas will handle you.

CUOMO: Don't hate, #demdebate.

PEREIRA: All right.

Let's turn to some other news now for you. There's growing tensions over Russia's military escalation in Syria. Breaking overnight, Moscow says it's open to cooperating with the U.S. on airstrikes in Syria. This comes as Russia's air assault continues where new strikes this morning, hitting several towns in western Syria.

[06:10:05] CNN's Arwa Damon is live in Istanbul, Turkey, with the latest for us -- Arwa.

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela.

And some pretty dramatic video being posted by activists purporting to show those strikes taking place. No confirmation just yet if the video is in fact that of Russian aircraft and exactly what sort of artillery may have been used.

But what we are hearing being reported from the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights is that Syrian regime forces are taking advantage of these airstrikes and that, in some of these areas, where the strikes took place, the fiercest clashes are taking place on the ground between regime forces and anti-Assad rebel groups.

This is quite interesting, especially given the fact that as you were mentioning, Russia has said that it is willing to coordinate with the United States when it comes to airstrikes, but America and Russia are on two opposite sides of this conflict, with Russia saying its strikes are, yes, against ISIS but also against other groups that the Syrian government deems to be terrorist organizations. Whereas the United States only wants to see Russia itself being targeted.

NATO also speaking out about the Russian buildup inside Syria, saying that the Russian deployment of significant forces in Syria is of great concern.

NATO also bringing up at least two violations of Turkish air space that took place over the weekend. The Turks and the Russians getting together, coming out and saying that, yes, it was a mistake, but Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan saying Russia not to push his country any further.

And then all of this, the Syrian foreign minister also speaking out fairly brazenly, saying without a doubt, Russia will win this race. That's seemingly a direct comment and perhaps a challenge to the U.S.-led coalition, Chris.

CUOMO: Arwa, as you have continued to remind all the politics, all the military action, all adds to the stress of those trying to live their life on the ground. And we'll be watching that as a byproduct of all of this. Thank you for the reporting.

So the head of U.S. forces in Afghanistan, which is of course, related to what's going on in Syria, because ISIS and al Qaeda are also there. And he says they're getting stronger. And as a result he's adjusting his recommendation for the number of troops needed there.

CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson live in Kabul, Afghanistan with more. How many more? What do we know? And what is the situation on the ground that they're so worried about, Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Sure. I mean, you have the Taliban in the tens of thousands, getting stronger across the country. A challenge to the Afghan National Army here.

U.S. is supporting it, helping train it, helping it get battle ready. But add into that mix now, you have al Qaeda in a growing strength again, you have thousands of ISIS fighters here now. Now you have other insurgents crossing over from Pakistan and, for that reason, the general in charge here, John Campbell, says he is going to have to change his recommendation or give President Obama different options than pretty much drawing all those forces down by the end of next year. This is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JOHN CAMPBELL, COMMANDER, U.S. FORCES IN AFGHANISTAN: Based on conditions on the ground, based on the transitions I've talked about, I do believe that we have to provide our senior leadership options different than the current plan that we're going with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: And of course, in the news, the Kunduz hospital, the U.S. airstrike there, Doctors Without Borders, frustrated that they don't think they're going to get the investigation they want.

I was talking to people from Kunduz, people forced out by the Taliban. I said, "Look, how's the army doing? Do you need U.S. support?"

And they said, "Absolutely. Our army isn't strong enough. It isn't capable. It ran away from the Taliban in places," they say, in Kunduz. "We want the military support. Just don't hit the hospitals and, please, no civilian casualties." The U.S., in their assessment, still really needed.

And the U.S. secretary of defense, Ash Carter, addressed that particular concern directly when he said yesterday, "The U.S. military takes the greatest care in our operations to prevent the loss of innocent life, and we make -- and when we make mistakes we will own up to them."

Clearly a need here, certainly from the people, certainly John Campbell, the U.S. general in charge here, his assessment, the U.S. military still has a role to play here -- Michaela.

PEREIRA: Some heavy hearts about this one for sure. Nic, thank you for that, the latest.

Meanwhile, we turn now to the Coast Guard, zeroing in on their search zone as they look desperately for survivors from that sunken cargo ship, El Faro. Family and friends of its 33 crew members holding vigils, agonizing over the fate of their loved ones. The cargo ship's owners insist the captain had a sound plan to avoid what was, at the time, Tropical Storm Joaquin.

CNN's Alexandra Field joins us now with the latest.

The important point to make, it hadn't developed into a hurricane yet.

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela.

[06:15:2] This is certainly something that's being looked at. What kind of weather information was available to the crew and the captain before this ship set sail?

The Coast Guard has been out through the night looking for survivors. They have now covered more than 172,000 square miles in the search for the 33 people who were on board that ship that set sail from Jacksonville, headed to Puerto Rico.

The owners of the company are under a lot of pressure now to answer questions about why the ship left the port. They are saying that they put their trust in the captain to be the decision maker, that as recently as last Wednesday, they had heard from the captain of that ship who reported that he was aware of the increasingly difficult and dangerous weather conditions, but he reported that the ship was still in a favorable position.

Still, why wouldn't the owners of this ship have stopped El Faro from setting sail, given that this hurricane was emerging and seemed to be in the direction that this ship was heading? Well, here's how they answered those questions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHIL GREENE, PRESIDENT/CEO, TOTE SERVICES: Given what he had in the way of information about the weather system, his plan was a sound plan that would have enabled him to clearly pass around the storm with a margin of comfort that was adequate in his professional opinion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FIELD: We all now know what happened by Thursday. That's when the captain of the ship reported to the parent company that the ship had become disabled, that it had lost propulsion. It is not clear why the ship became disabled. The captain only reported that there had been some kind of navigational incident. This is what left the ship to become so vulnerable as it headed from this Category 4 hurricane which emerged.

The NTSB is now on scene. They are trying to determine what caused the ship to become disabled, but as they look for answers, the Coast Guard remains tasked with looking for survivors.

PEREIRA: Yes. And this is something the families are holding out hope for. Alexandra, thank you for the latest.

We should point out to you, in our next hour, we're actually going to speak with a friend of the captain of that doomed cargo ship. He's a mariner himself, to try to get insight on what could have happened -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right. Let's go to South Carolina. Right now, nothing but trouble. Dam breaks, emergency evacuations, rising death tolls, billions in damage, countless families left with nothing.

CNN's Boris Sanchez is live in Kingstree, South Carolina. More there. Boris, the rain has stopped. That gives the illusion that the problem is over. The opposite is the truth. What do you see?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Governor Nikki Haley said yesterday, don't let the sunshine fool you. And you shouldn't. The situation still dire here in South Carolina. I'll paint a picture of what's going on behind me in just a moment, Chris.

But I want to give you some numbers that are just staggering. There are 11 dams that have failed here in South Carolina since Saturday. Thirty-five of them that are being monitored right now because they're at risk of breaching. There's about 70 miles of I-95 that are shut down in the state.

I-95 only runs for about 200 miles in South Carolina. So that's a giant chunk of highway that is shut down right now as five to eight bridges are being inspected there.

You also mentioned the death toll. There are about 15 dead here in South Carolina, two in North Carolina. And we've gotten word that there have been at least 175 water rescues since this weekend. That number is going to rise dramatically.

Keep in mind a fire chief here in Kingstree, which is a relatively small town, told us the state performed 50 water rescues, including one early this morning. There are also about 800 people that are being housed in evacuation shelters right now, some of them coming from this neighborhood behind me. This is an area called King's -- rather, Fool's Jill. And it is completely submerged. There are several feet of water here, and the water is moving east, covering a highway just to the east of us. The situation still unfolding far from normal, Michaela.

PEREIRA: Far from normal. And it's so sobering to see those images. And you're walking around seeing it firsthand. Boris, we appreciate your reporting. Thank you so much.

The biggest mass release of federal inmates in U.S. prison history begins later this month. About 6,000 federal inmates will be released early. Tens of thousands more could soon follow after maximum sentences for nonviolent drug offenders were lowered. The Justice Department says about a third are noncitizens, and they would face deportation. These releases come as many cities see a surge in murders and violent crimes.

CUOMO: Another scare in the air involving a pilot getting sick midflight. This time a United Airlines co-pilot passed out about an hour after takeoff. The Houston to San Francisco flight forced to divert to New Mexico. The co-pilot left the plane under his own power. It's still unclear what was wrong with him, this just days after an American Airlines pilot died after suffering an apparent midair heart attack.

PEREIRA: Goodness me.

All right. Russia launching new airstrikes in Syria overnight. All the while talking about cooperating with the United States in future strikes. Could the U.S. and Russia cross paths, leading to military confrontation? We are going to speak to a former NATO commander, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:23:59] CUOMO: All right. Here's the latest. Russia says it is willing to cooperate with the U.S. on future airstrikes in Syria. But for now, they're certainly not waiting, launching the most intense round of strikes yet overnight.

Is this good news? Are they doing what the United States wants to do in Syria? That's the big question. We have good people to give you insight.

General George Joulwan is a former NATO supreme allied commander, retired from the U.S. Army. And Mr. Kurt Volker, a former U.S. ambassador to NATO. He's currently the executive director at the McCain Institute and the senior adviser at the Atlantic Council.

Gentlemen, thank you for being here.

General, I start with you. Do we have reason to believe that Russia wants the same thing that the United States and the allies want in Syria?

GEN. GEORGE JOULWAN, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: No. I think we want different ends, but that should not prevent us from cooperating when we have aircraft flying in a very small air space over Syria. It's the cooperation part that I think needs to be understood here, not the aims on the ground.

[06:25:06] CUOMO: All right. So let's take the general's point, Kurt. And how do you cooperate with someone who's doing what you don't want them to do, besides not shooting each other in the air?

KURT VOLKER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MCCAIN INSTITUTE: I think that you put your finger on the limits of it. I wouldn't even say you could call it cooperation. Because we do have fundamentally different goals. Russia is there to support the Assad regime. We're there to try to go after ISIS, which Russia so far has not shown any interest in doing.

What we do have to do is coordinate, so that if we have forces operating in the same space, we don't have accidental conflict between those forces.

CUOMO: So this is really about cooperating and to not shooting each other, General. But what about what's being done on the ground? You just had a Syrian official say Russia is going to win this race. What's going on here?

JOULWAN: That's a good question. But I really think that they -- we do have a common enemy here in ISIS. And ISIS is as much a concern to Russia as it is to us, given the Transcaucus region, which is the underbelly of Russia.

So I think there is a common interest here, if we can at least talk about that. I think it would go a long way to the cooperation and coordination that's needed in the air. We need an air coordination center somewhere in that region to coordinate what's happening on the ground.

CUOMO: Can you work with somebody, General, who is trying to kill the people that you're trying to arm to fight Assad?

JOULWAN: I've worked with the Russians in the past over Bosnia. I think at the top levels, that cooperation is possible. I agree that we have different aims with Assad, but we do have common aims with ISIS. So there has to be a way to figure out how to do this coordination, even though our political aims may be different.

CUOMO: Afghanistan. The commander there comes out and says strategy's not working. We need more men. What is this an introduction to, Mr. Volker?

VOLKER: Well, I think that you're seeing the question raised about a continuing U.S. presence in Afghanistan beyond the end of this administration. It's very late to do so, and I think it gets back to the question of strategy again. What are we really trying to do? Even these numbers coming out of 5,000 or so troops, is that going to be sufficient to what mission, what purpose?

And I think that we're going to have to look at deciding, is it important to the United States to have a stable and secure Afghanistan and, therefore, resource that? Or are we more -- do we find it more important to get out? And are we just going to do that? I hope that we choose the former.

CUOMO: The former of trying to stay there and create something.

VOLKER: Keep a stable Afghanistan and don't let another Iraq happen.

CUOMO: But you have much better intel on this than I do. But my guys who work in and around the situation say forget it. The Taliban is still there. They've repopulated. They buy off the chieftains. They provide people what they need. The place will never hold together as a unified sovereign. This is a waste of time. This is water in the sand.

VOLKER: I personally don't agree with that. I know that the Taliban is back and that they are fighting and that they do pose a huge challenge. That's exactly why you need more time for the Afghan government to show that it can build capability and succeed.

If you look at Afghanistan from where we began in 2003 up until, you know, ten years after that, we had tremendous progress in Afghanistan in just about every area, from economic development to education to security.

What's happened is, as we pulled our forces out, the Afghan government wasn't ready. And you're seeing the Taliban come back. I think the issue here is giving the Afghan government more time, and I think it can be successful.

CUOMO: General, quickly, this hospital in Kunduz, you have U.S. officials saying we would never target a protected hospital. We hope you'd never target any hospital. But what happened here? You obviously hit the wrong thing. What happens now?

JOULWAN: Well, I believe that steps are being taken to investigate it and to try and figure out what went wrong. But things like this happen in war and conflict, and I think we should react to it, find out what happened but not -- not overreact.

I think what -- it's a crime doing something against the Doctors Without Borders, who do such good work around the world. But we need to get on with developing a strategy. I'm not sure we have, the United States, a strategy for the Middle East. That seems to be imploding as we speak.

CUOMO: Do you think there is a good strategy for the Middle East?

JOULWAN: No. I really don't. I don't know what that strategy is. The clarity isn't there. And I think we're going to have more missteps as we go along. So we need to have a comprehensive military diplomatic, economic strategy here with our allies about the way forward in the Middle East.

CUOMO: The question is, is there a way forward and a way that will satisfy the American people? Mr. Volker, General, thank you very much for the perspective. Appreciate it -- Mick.

VOLKER: Thank you.

JOULWAN: Thank you.

PEREIRA: All right, Chris. Investigators are turning their attention now to the mother of the college shooter in...