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Carson Enters Third GOP Debate with Momentum; Clinton: We Have to Look at the Whole Financial System; Defense Secretary: U.S. 'Won't Hold Back' in ISIS Fight; Will South Carolina Deputy Keep His Job?; World Series Telecast Interrupted by Power Outage. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired October 28, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump has fallen to second place behind Ben Carson.

[05:58:35] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He set himself up to look like a failing candidate.

DR. BEN CARSON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's a marathon. It's not a sprint.

TRUMP: Iowa, what the hell are you people doing to me?

STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, CBS'S "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT": If you're president and the banks are failing, do we let them fail?

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Caught on camera, body slamming a student. Will he be fired?

SHERIFF LEON LOTT, RICHLAND COUNTY: Even though that's not my daughter, I still feel some strong reactions to it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Being thrown across the classroom like that was really traumatizing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How disruptive was the student?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have lost our picture.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A four-minute blackout? Unbelievable. First matchup.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. it's Wednesday, October 28, 6 a.m. in the east. Did you see game, the World Series? The longest game one in

history? Fourteen innings, more than five hours, didn't end until 1:30 a.m. I held it off as long as I could. The Royals won, 5-4! It was an amazing game. We have more on it for you this morning.

And the power outage. Four minutes! There was a power outage during this historic game. Can you imagine that? We haven't seen that since, like "Heidi" interrupted the Jets game. We'll have more on it coming up now and how the angered fans were and what happened in this game.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Crazy stuff.

But first, Donald Trump heading into tonight's GOP debate, no longer as the undisputed Republican frontrunner. So how will Carson's momentum change this race?

We have a lot to cover. So let's begin with CNN's Sunlen Serfaty. She's live in Boulder, Colorado, the site of tonight's debate -- Sunlen.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

When Ben Carson takes the stage tonight, he clearly will have momentum on his side. He will be up there, side by side with Donald Trump, and so this tug-of-war that has really emerged between the two will be at center stage.

Carson has been prepping in Florida for the last few days, and aides say he is ready, and willing, and prepared to challenge Donald Trump tonight. Now for his part, Donald Trump has really been hammering down on Ben Carson out on the campaign trail. Clearly not handling his own drop in the polls too well.

Here's how he put it last night in Iowa.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Iowa, will you get your numbers up, please? Will you get these numbers up? I promise you, I will do such a good job.

By the way, before I forget, will you get the numbers up, Iowa, please? This is ridiculous.

And please do me a favor. Let me win Iowa. I refuse to say "get your asses in gear." I will not say that. But will you please do me a favor and work with my people and get out on February 1 and vote and give us a victory? Now if I lose Iowa, I will never speak to you people again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: Now this comes as John Kasich has really been taking on a much more aggressive tone on the campaign trail. Yesterday at his sendoff rally before the debate, he really laid into all of his Republican opponents for what he called their hysterical policies. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do you know how crazy this election is? Let me tell you something. I've about had it with these people. I am sick and tired of listening to this nonsense, and I'm going to have to call it like it is, as long as I'm in this race.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And the Kasich campaign acknowledging to CNN this is, of course, a shift in his strategy in advance of tonight's debate, so of course, Michaela, it's very clear he's trying to shake things up -- Michaela.

PEREIRA: Certainly, a change in tone for Kasich and also for Trump, essentially begging voters to come out and support him. Fascinating stuff. Thanks so much.

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton widening her lead in several state polls. The former secretary of state appearing on "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert" last night, insisting that, if she's elected, she'll take on the big banks and would let them fail, if necessary.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLBERT: You put forth a plan for reforming Wall Street, and Wall Street embraced it. Is that a good sign?

CLINTON: Well, I'm not sure who you're talking about, because I certainly didn't get that message, if they did.

COLBERT: yes.

CLINTON: Paul Krugman, you know, the columnist for "The New York Times," a Nobel Prize-winning columnist, said that I came out with a tough, comprehensive, effective plan.

Because what I did, which is really looking at the problems that we have and trying to preempt the problems of the future, is to recognize that, you know, we don't just have big banks in our economy that pull a lot of strings and make a lot of decisions.

Look at what happened in '08. We had a big insurance company that had to be bailed out. We had an investment bank, Lehman Brothers, that failed. We have to look at the whole financial system.

COLBERT: So if you're president -- if you're president...

CLINTON: Yes?

COLBERT: And -- and the banks -- and the banks are failing, do we let them fail this time?

CLINTON: Yes. Yes.

COLBERT: We let them fail this time?

CLINTON: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

First of all, under Dodd/Frank, that is what will happen, because we now have stress tests. And I'm going to impose a risk fee on the big bank if they -- if they engage in risky behavior.

But they have to know, their shareholders have to know that, yes, they will fail. And if they're too big to fail, then under my plan and others that have been proposed, they may have to be broken up. Because if you can't manage it, then it's more likely to fail.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: All right. So much material to break down this morning.

So let's bring in CNN national political reporter, Maeve Reston; and CNN politics executive editor Mark Preston. It's great to have both of you with us.

Let's start with Trump, because Trump is trying a new political tactic, as we just heard in Sunlen's piece there, and I believe the technical term is begging. Mark, what do you think of him saying to Iowa, "Please, do me a favor. Let me win Iowa"?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Not only that, Alisyn, he also noted that evangelicals have let him down. And he's perplexed by that because he said he is a good Christian.

Now, in order to win the Iowa caucus, you need the support of the conservative Christian vote out there. But as we saw in this national poll right now, Ben Carson has a 22-point lead with him when it comes to Christian voters. And we've also saw many Iowa polls in the past ten days or so that shows that Carson is in top in Iowa.

[06:05:12] Look, right now, Donald Trump is really at a crossroads in his campaign. The question is, does he continue going on with his shtick that he's doing right now, where he offers these sweeping ideas that he can help fix the nation but not really get specific, or does he stop offering policy proposals, much like Jeb Bush or some of the other candidates are doing, and if he follows the latter, I think that he puts his campaign back on track. If he continues with the shtick, then I think he'll continue to see a slide in the polls.

CUOMO: Preston suggesting Trump play the other guy's game. That's not what he does.

Maeve Reston, let's figure out what makes you smile so broadly.

Of course Donald Trump doesn't get why he's not up in Iowa. Because he has succeeded following his own gut. It seems to be not working. You know, who knows what happens with the next set of polls. So how do you think this plays for him going into tonight? MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I

mean, I don't know if it's the best strategy to get out there and complain about your poll numbers. It's not necessarily what everyone wants to be hearing about on the campaign trail.

But we are seeing Donald Trump build a serious ground game in a lot of the early states, and that's going to be important as he tries to get his message out.

Tonight at the debate, I mean, there is a big question here about whether people are now drifting to Carson, because they really like that contrast of the quieter, more mild-mannered surgeon, and maybe they're getting a little bit tired of Donald Trump's shtick.

And he had very high unfavorable ratings to begin with, so we knew that he had a ceiling, and we're now seeing him slide. So he's really got to show tonight that he can be a good contrast to Carson, and he clearly has been going after Carson's competency and his energy in recent days, though I'm sure we will see him do that again tonight.

CAMEROTA: And Mark, can we talk about John Kasich for a second? Because here is a guy that, in a normal year, has all of the ingredients, right, to be a frontrunner. Smart guy, successful governor. Even he, yesterday, on the campaign trail, was basically saying he can't make heads or tails out of what's going on with Ben Carson and Donald Trump; and he went after them. So listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASICH: We've got one candidate that says that we ought to abolish Medicare and Medicaid. Have you ever heard of anything so crazy as that? Telling our people in this country who are seniors or are about to be seniors that we're going to abolish Medicare and Medicaid?

We've got one guy that says we ought to take 10 or 11 million people and pick 'em up -- I don't know if we're going to go in their homes, their apartments. We're going to pick them up and we're going to take them to the border and scream at them to get out of our country? I mean, that's just crazy. That is just crazy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So Mark, what becomes of a guy who like John Kasich, who in this crazy, topsy-turvy year, isn't getting traction?

PRESTON: Well, you know, I think if you were to look at the field right now and who is best positioned to become the choice for vice president for any of these candidates, and you've got to look at John Kasich. He comes from Ohio. He is very learned on Capitol Hill. He was the budget committee chairman. He knows what he's doing.

The problem with John Kasich is he is running in a year where there are 15 other people are running. Former governors, current governors, senators, and he can't seem to break through. He also got into the race so late into the game. And that is

what's hurting Kasich. Tonight, though, I think what Kasich has to do is that he has to show that he is going to start challenging some of his colleagues on that stage, so to speak. Because he said he wasn't going to do it. But if he wants to instill some confidence in his campaign, he needs to do that tonight.

CUOMO: Right. Now Mark, I know both you and Maeve are hearing the same thing we are from Kasich's people, which is they have money to sustain. They are not going anywhere. That's going to be an advantage. This field has to thin out. And it's going to happen for two reasons.

Maeve, yesterday, I figured out why you're smiling. You're smiling because you're waiting for my next debate prediction, that you can shoot down like O'Malley the last time. And I'm going to make one. Because I definitely believe that what Kasich said yesterday is not him losing his cool. This is a tack that you're going to see from him tonight.

We saw it projected by Governor Sununu on the show. They've been talking on the upper echelons of that party about what they need to do. And I think they're going with the -- I've had it. Enough is enough. don't let the media steal this election from us. You're taking it away from what matters. And he's going to come out.

I think tonight you'll see a John Kasich you have not seen before. And you say why I'm wrong?

RESTON: And I absolutely agree with you in this case, Chris. I mean, I think that what we're seeing from Kasich is a new line of aggression.

Clearly, people did not -- they warmed to him in New Hampshire, but then he started to slide. And that's the place where he's really staked his campaign. And so they see the need for a shake up here, to show more aggression, much in the same way that Jeb Bush has needed to do with his voters.

And tonight you're going to really see Kasich take on Trump and the other contenders on the stage to say, "Wait a minute, guys. This is not what you're looking for. You want a more experienced, competent candidate, and I can be that person." So we'll see. It will be fun (ph).

[06:10:12] CAMEROTA: So I mean, last time Carly Fiorina was really sort of boosted by that debate. How do you think that tonight is going to reshuffle the deck again, Mark?

RESTON: Well, I mean, look, a lot's on the line for all of these candidates, but Carly Fiorina got a bump out of the FOX debate back in August. She did -- did well in the CNN debate last month.

Right now, a lot's on the line for her, because we haven't seen her. She hasn't been out there. She hasn't been front and center. In many ways, Carly Fiorina has kind of slipped off the radar. We've actually seen that in the polling, not only in the states, but nationally.

Carly Fiorina needs to reestablish herself as she tries to portray herself as the smart CEO that is an outsider in Washington. A lot on the line for her tonight to try to pull that off.

CUOMO: But she'll still be hitting the same note, Maeve.

RESTON: And Jeb.

CUOMO: And -- well, Jeb's always had to -- Jeb's always had to make a push. You know what I mean? The question...

RESTON: He has. I mean, after...

CUOMO: Go ahead, Maeve.

RESTON: Yes. After slashing all those salaries, I mean, he's going to have to really perform tonight to show his donors that he's got some way to connect with voters out there after this huge shake-up that we saw in his campaign last week.

CUOMO: But I'll tell you, you know, again, Governor Sununu is not a name you hear very often, but you know, as these insiders will tell you, this is a man who's always sought out for his intelligence on strategy. And what they're saying right now is, it is time to take this race back. They believe we have taken it from their party. And they're going to take it back tonight. And Kasich's a great guy to do it, because he's such a fighter. And he's so convicted about what he believes in. So we'll see it tonight, Maeve.

CAMEROTA: Maeve, Mark, thank you.

CUOMO: Quick programming note for you tonight, after the debate, it's all about who did well and why. How did things change? The man on your screen will take you through it. A special two-hour "AC 360," starting at 10 p.m. Eastern. Coop and the best political team in the business will break it all down for you -- Mick.

PEREIRA: All right. The U.S. is ready to begin taking direct action on the ground to step up attacks on ISIS in Syria and Iraq. Defense Secretary Ash Carter telling the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee that the U.S., quote, "won't back down" from supporting its partners.

CNN's chief national correspondent, Jim Sciutto live in Washington with more for us. Good morning, Jim.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela.

This is something the president has resisted since the start of military operations against ISIS. In fact, he said it wouldn't happen. U.S. troops in ground combat. But now we learned that those options, hard options, are on the table.

The defense secretary boils them down to, as he said, the three "R's." Those three "R's" stands for raids, like the one we saw that the U.S. Delta Force took place -- took part in last week, where one Delta Force operator was killed.

Raqqa, which is ISIS's home base in Syria and Ramadi in Iraq. Operations to supplant them from there.

Here's how the defense secretary put it yesterday on Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASH CARTER, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: We won't hold back from supporting capable partners in opportunistic attacks against ISIL or conducting such missions directly. Whether by strikes from the air or direct action on the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Here's what you're talking about here. You're talking about Special Forces helping Kurdish and Iraqi forces on the ground in raids like we saw last week, but you also heard on the Hill yesterday talk of forward deploying U.S. advisers with local units on the ground. These could be forward ground controllers calling in airstrikes or just advisers at the front lines, helping the local forces fight better and take on ISIS. Something that they haven't done successfully on the ground recently.

And here's something to keep in mind. Combat certainly in danger there. You have a new danger now with Russia operating on the ground and in the air in Syria, and they're talking about it even in Iraq. Because remember, those Russian strikes are meant to defend the regime of Bashar al-Assad, anyone fighting that regime. Some of the people fighting that regime are people that the U.S. supports on the ground there.

So a lot of dangers for those forces. We saw the reality of those dangers last week when one Delta Force Special Operator was killed. First combat death since 2011 -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Yes, Jim. Thanks so much for all that background.

Now to an update for you on that South Carolina police officer who slammed a female student to the floor in her classroom. He will find out later today if he still has a job. Now, his supervisor claims the girl bears some responsibility for this incident.

CNN's Martin Savidge is live in Columbia, South Carolina, with the very latest.

What's new in this, Martin?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

As you point out, the sheriff in this county has said that he planned to move pretty quickly on this case. That's why it's anticipated that some kind of announcement could come out at noon. For student resource officer Ben Fields, it could be high noon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE (voice-over): The 16-year-old high school student violently thrown to the ground by School Resource Officer Ben Fields claims she does have injuries to her arm and face, at least according to her attorney. The FBI now investigating.

[06:15:04] LOTT: She might have had a lot of rug burn or something like that, but she was not injured.

SAVIDGE: In the incident report, the South Carolina sheriff's deputy said he used "muscling techniques," after she refused his request to get up. Then, according to the report, she hit him in the chest with a closed fist.

LOTT: I don't want anybody to think just the fact that he did strike the officer, that's justification for some of the actions that he took.

NIYA KENNY, STUDENT ARRESTED AFTER INCIDENT: We've heard about his reputation and we've heard that he's a really, I guess I could say, dangerous man.

SAVIDGE: The second student arrested, 18-year-old Niya Kenny, says it all started when the 16-year-old refused to hand over her phone to the math teacher, and that's when Fields was called in to remove her.

Kenny says she was crying, screaming at the officer, Fields then arresting her for disturbing school.

KENNY: He say, "You got something -- you got something you want to say? You want some of this, too?"

And I was just like, "No," and I just put my hands behind my back.

SAVIDGE: In 2007, Army veteran Carlos Martin filed a lawsuit against Officer Fields, claiming that he used excessive force when questioning him and his wife about a noise complaint. The jury ruled in Fields' favor in 2010. But Martin claims race was a factor in his arrest.

CARLOS MARTIN, SUED BEN FIELDS IN 2007: When I saw the video, it just reminds me of all the nightmares and what I've been going through for ten years.

SAVIDGE: A student in the classroom who posted this video wrote that Fields is, quote, "a cool dude and not racist."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Black people are attacked.

SAVIDGE: Still, many parents of the Richland II School District are outraged, as are school officials. CHIP JACKSON, SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER, RICHLAND COUNTY DISTRICT TWO:

This individual, we've made it clear that we do not want him back on our school grounds and in our schools, and that's been a permanent request that we've made.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: There is some debate as to whether or not Officer Fields should lose his job, but as you just heard, many believe he definitely should not be back inside of that high school again, at least not in the capacity of being an officer -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Martin, thank you for that. We have a lot more on that story.

But I want to tell you about this, because it's somewhat of a window into why we have police in our schools in the first place. This is happening in Sacramento, California. Video capturing a fight breaking out in the lunchroom. The school's principal, Don Ross, he gets wrestled and thrown to the ground by a student. He gets right back up, tries to break up the fight again.

In the end, you have three students from Florin High School being arrested. Officials say three school employees suffered minor injuries.

PEREIRA: No criminal charges, meanwhile, against the South Carolina police lieutenant who fatally shot 19-year-old Zachary Hammond back in July. Hammond was unarmed, in his car at a parking lot during a drug sting. He was shot and killed by Lieutenant Mark Tiller while attempting to drive away.

An autopsy revealed Tiller shot Hammond in the back and side through his car window, contradicting the officer's testimony that Hammond was trying to run him over head on. However, the prosecutor declined, rather, to bring charges, because deadly force was, in her opinion, justified.

And also new this morning, two Savannah, Georgia, police officers shot overnight. Both survived and are expected to recover. Officials say they were trying to make a traffic stop when the driver took off. One of those suspects was shot and killed.

CUOMO: I'll tell you, you're watching these stories, just makes you wonder what's going on in the world, but there's also some things to keep your head up about. How about the World Series?

What a start we had to baseball's fall classic. The Kansas City Royals and New York Mets taking fans on an emotional roller coaster. Fourteen innings! It didn't end until after 1:30 in the morning.

PEREIRA: I can't even believe that.

CUOMO: There was also this weird delay, caused by a power outage. Obviously, God upset that the Mets might not win the game. Some fans at home in the dark wondering what's going on. Andy Scholes supposedly crying? Andy, crying? Four minutes and you start to cry?

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS: I was OK, Chris, during that brief delay. It wasn't anything like a Super Bowl light outage last night. Only six minutes.

But, you know, Chris, this was the second longest World Series game ever. It took five hours and nine minutes to complete. The game finally ended, as you said, around 1:30 a.m. Eastern this morning.

And this game had it all, including that power outage you were just talking about, knocked the broadcast off the air momentarily. Happened in the bottom of the fourth. The game delayed about six minutes when FOX's broadcast truck actually lost power. After conferring with Joe Torre, both the Mets and the Royals, they agreed to continue the game without instant replay.

And viewers, they only missed one batter before FOX took the international feed of the broadcast.

Now, big story last night was Royals pitcher Edinson Volquez, pitching this game with a heavy heart. His father passed away yesterday. The Royals say that Volquez didn't know about his father's death until after he came out of the game, but according to ESPN, he found out while on his way to the ball park. Either way, he pitched a great game, allowed three runs in six innings before leaving to be with his family.

Now, bottom of the ninth, Mets, they were two outs away from winning this one when Alex Gordon took Jeurys Familia deep to tie this game up. It the first run Familia had given up all post-season.

We go to extra innings. Bottom of the 14th, this was a big play for the Mets. David Wright, the throwing error allows Alcides Escobar to get on base. Then three batters later, Eric Hosmer comes to the plate. He's going to hit a sacrifice fly. That would end this marathon, as the Royals take a wild game one by a final of 5-4.

[06:20:17] Guys, we're going to have a quick turnaround for game two. It's going to be tonight at 8 Eastern. Mets throwing Jacob deGrom, while The Royals are going to counter with Johnny Cueto.

And I don't want to be a downer for all the Mets fans after such a great game one, guys, but 17 out of the last 20 game one winners, including the last five, have gone on to win the World Series.

CAMEROTA: There you go. There you go.

SCHOLES: They're going to have to buck that trend.

PEREIRA: Can we also talk about the commitment of East Coast sports fans? That game went until 1:30 in the morning.

CAMEROTA: That took stamina even just watching it.

PEREIRA: I don't know how y'all do it.

CUOMO: That's because we're old. To young people, 1:30 in the morning is not like us...

PEREIRA: If you have to get up and go to work the next morning.

CUOMO: But no one gets up when we do. This is unnatural, what we do.

But I'll tell you what's tough about that game. When it goes that long, it can hurt a little bit more than a normal game.

CAMEROTA: Definitely. You're totally invested. I totally agree.

CUOMO: And big series are all about swings of emotion. So we'll see. It's all about how you come back.

PEREIRA: Game one, people.

CAMEROTA: All right. Back to one of our top stories now. Will that South Carolina school officer who was involved in the arrest of the student here, will he lose his job today? We could learn his fate as early as noon.

The Justice Department and the FBI opens a civil rights investigation. We'll look at the legal fallout, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:25:32] CUOMO: All right. So it gets deeper. The FBI and the Department of Justice both launching civil rights investigations into the violent classroom arrest of a South Carolina high school student. Actually, two students were arrested. Were the officer's actions justified, which means OK in the eyes of the law? If not, what should have been done? These are the questions.

For perspective, Matthew Horace, former ATF executive, the senior vice president of FJC Security Services. He's also a professor on these issues at Farleigh-Dickinson, right?

MATTHEW HORACE, FORMER ATF EXECUTIVE: Right.

CUOMO: Mo Ivory, attorney and radio personality, here for the cause, as well. Thank you both.

One of the big questions when this story started is how did this begin, because where the video picks up. We now understand better from the second student who was arrested in this situation. She's made a statement on television. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNY: We've heard about his reputation, and we've heard that he's a really -- I don't want to say -- yes, I guess I can say, dangerous man to get involved with on that level.

SIMONE MARTIN, ATTORNEY FOR NIYA KENNY: I've been told by a number of the students that he is referred to as Officer Slam, as opposed to Officer Fields. And that's telling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: All right. And that's her opinion on the officer. That is what it is.

However, she also said, what happened was the girl's on her cell phone. The teacher said, "Get off the phone."

She said, "No."

She said, "Give me the cell phone."

The girl said, "No." When the girl refused to turn over the cell phone, then the school resource officer was called, which is really just another way of saying a police officer.

Now, when you see this, there is obvious outrage. However, you say, let's start with the first moment he puts his hand on the student, and you can tell a different story, which is what?

HORACE: I think the story is, anytime you go to affect an arrest, if a person is being noncompliant...

CUOMO: Is that what he was doing, was affecting an arrest?

HORACE: I think we heard him say, "If you don't do this, I am going to arrest you." That's the information we have. So we're left to assume that, at that point, he decided that he was going to arrest her and take her out of the classroom.

CUOMO: OK. So let's do the analysis step by step. Let's take one step back from where Matthew is right now, is what do you believe, Mo, the officer should have done before saying, "I'm now going to arrest you"?

MO IVORY, RADIO PERSONALITY: I think the officer should have told the teacher right away, "Why don't we remove the other students from the classroom if you think this is a big enough problem?"

But I think the teacher is where it really begins, even before the officer was called. Because in 2015, what teacher doesn't know how to deal with a student who doesn't want to give up their cell phone?

CUOMO: Mo...

IVORY: It just doesn't seem like a big enough problem.

CUOMO: Mo, we have heard -- we have both heard from teachers all over the country who say, "I don't know what to do. I feel powerless. I'm going to get sued. I'm afraid of these kids. They don't listen."

So she calls the assistant vice principal, we're told, reportedly. I don't know if the person doesn't show up or whatever happens, then she goes to the officer, the resource officer. All right. So let's say she could have maybe handled her

classroom better, but she didn't. She now calls this officer.

The officer says to the kid, "Get up, get up, get up."

"No, no, no." Now you say, Matthew Horace, it is right for the officer to move into arrest mode. With a high school student. Because that's what's fueling a lot of the outrage.

HORACE: What's happened here, it's gone from a discipline issue from a teacher, from the teacher to the vice principal, and now becomes a police matter. The police were called, and the principal and the teacher asked the police to remove the student. That were the instructions that the officer was given.

Once that has been made and an officer puts his hands on an individual and says, "I need to take you out of this room," the dynamics totally change. And we can talk about whether it should be there or not, but that situation changed as soon as he put his hands on...

CUOMO: Discretion of de-escalation. Matthew Horace is in that room, yes, you're a highly decorated officer. You're not, you know, just an average officer, but let's take it as low as we can go. The most average person, would you have done what you saw in that video?

HORACE: Once I have given the command...

CUOMO: Yes.

HORACE: ... for the student to get up a number of times and the time has waned down, it's time for that student to get up. And it's time to put hands on and affect an arrest, if an arrest is appropriate.

CUOMO: Mo.

IVORY: No, Chris, I totally disagree. Because I believe that the training -- and from everything that I've heard from the way the police are trained, and even from the sheriff who spoke about this, he did not follow proper procedure.

Because the first thing that he should have done was to try to de-escalate the situation, not affect an arrest. Because in a school, he's also taught different methods to deal with students that welcome unruly or don't handle themselves correctly. She was not even unruly. All she was doing was very quietly saying, "I am not going to give up my cell phone."

And there could have been a number of different ways that he could have de-escalated that situation without touching her.

CUOMO: And nobody is saying that what the kid did was right. I mean, this is all about what the officer -- everybody gets that the kid should have given up the phone.