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New Day

California Shooting Rampage. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired December 03, 2015 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:31:33] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We're in San Bernardino, California, the site of the deadliest mass shooting in the U.S. since Newtown, Connecticut.

Investigators very much on edge after identifying two Muslim attackers, very much concerned there could be more involved here. What we know so far, 14 murdered, 17 injured. The perpetrators so far, the two suspects, dead. They are a man and a woman who supposedly were married. And they were killed in a spectacular police shoot-out.

Now, the question of why this happened is certainly hanging over the situation. We do know that one of the attackers was at a holiday party right up the street from us at this convention center but left supposedly after a disagreement.

There are now questions about whether this shooting was an angry reaction of what happened there. Or much more likely, something preplanned. Why?

The way they were equipped with long guns and semi-automatic handguns, tactical gear, explosive device. A bogus story when handing off the 6-month-old child to the grandmother saying they had a doctor's appointment.

So, there were also details learned overnight, these explosives at the scene. How were they made? How were they detonated?

The explosives were rigged to a remote control car that was found in the SUV when the suspects were eventually tracked down. These attackers certainly came prepared. We have to make that point because it feeds into the investigation.

They had gotten two of the guns legally themselves. Two of the others were also bought legally. These long guns as we're calling them, assault-type rifles. But they were bought by somebody else. How did these two get somebody's guns?

There's certainly thoughts for prayers. And the death count continues to rise from these types of mass shootings.

The big consideration, as we get back to New York, Alisyn and Mick, if this were a terror attack, why did the two leave the scene, instead of staying there as often the case, waiting for authorities, trying to do as much inhuman activity as possible? And then once they fled, why did they stay so close to the vicinity, even driving into it when being chased?

A lot of questions there. We'll track down answers as we can.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We do have a lot to explore this morning, Chris. We'll be back to you shortly.

We do we have other headlines to tell everyone about because -- Russian President Vladimir Putin delivering his state of the nation speech focusing on the fight against terror and booting Russia's economy. He called on international cooperation to defeat terrorism. He also talked about tensions with Turkey, warning Turkey's leaders that it will, quote, regret downing that ISIS bomber. All of this as ISIS blasts Russia in its latest video which shows the gruesome beheading of a man they claim was a Russian spy.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Meanwhile, the United Kingdom launching its first airstrike in Syria. Officials say four U.K. fighter jets conducted several strikes on an oil field in the East. This action happening hours after parliament voted in favor of bombing ISIS strongholds there. The spotlight now on the German parliament which is on track to step up its own military offensive against ISIS.

CAMEROTA: Oscar Pistorius will be going back to prison, perhaps, for as long as 15 years. South Africa's Supreme Court of appeals upgraded his original conviction from culpable homicide to murder. This, of course, in the death of his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.

Pistorius was released in October after serving one year of his five-year sentence.

[06:35:00] He's been under house arrest. But he will not be resentenced.

PEREIRA: This is a real head scratcher. An alleged bomb plot uncovered by police who say five fifth graders, that's right, fifth graders were behind it.

Police say they had written plans to set off explosives at a local high school. It's not clear how school administrators were able to discover the plot. But those students were arrested. They were later released into their parents' custody and as you can imagine, they have been suspended from school.

CAMEROTA: OK. We have learned that the two shooters in San Bernardino were married. Why would this husband and wife with a baby at home do this? We will explore who they were, next.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They rushed into my front door seeking shelter. Saying they're shooting. They're shooting everybody.

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CAMEROTA: Police say one of the shooters in San Bernardino left an office holiday party after a dispute, and returned with his wife, both of them heavily armed.

So, was this workplace violence or domestic terrorism? Let's bring in CNN contributor and criminologist Casey Jordan.

Casey, thanks so much with being here with your perspective.

You're leaning towards the workplace violence theory, why?

CASEY JORDAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, because everything about it points towards that. It was a soft target, but it was a very specific target. If you want to terrorize people you don't go to an office of the county employees. You go to a big box store, you go to a mall, you go to an airport, a train station.

[06:40:00] So, from the very beginning were I heard that somebody walked into a conference room, started some kind of dustup, left and came back, that wasn't the cause, that was simply the trigger. He had been preparing for it like so many disgruntled employees do. He had the explosives, he has the guns, he had the gate away driver. But he wanted them to know it was very personal that he was unhappy about something and they were going to suffer for it.

CAMEROTA: But there were a few things to complicate your theory.

JORDAN: Sure.

CAMEROTA: Mainly, his wife came back with him. So, rarely have we seen multiple shooters in these mass shooting events. I don't know if we've ever seen a husband and wife team, what does that tell you?

JORDAN: Well, we call in the Bonnie and Clyde syndrome or the master-disciple. And they're very often and master disciple, if you want to think about Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold from Columbine, it was the same thing. You have one who thinks they have been wronged, on their team and will do anything to help them get revenge, because with that, it's like a chemical reaction between the two of them, they find strength in each other.

I can do this if she's going to be on my side. I'm not wrong, she agrees with me. And she's like, they can't do that to my husband. So you end up feeding each other psychology for revenge by having that partnership.

CAMEROTA: The fact that they had planted explosives at the location of the office party. That means it wasn't just a moment where he was set off.

JORDAN: No.

CAMEROTA: That means was plan. That sometimes lends itself to the terrorism theory, that was in the works?

JORDAN: Except the Columbine shooters did exactly the same thing. They had propane bombs at the school. They just didn't go off. James Holmes, they were a theater shooter. His apartment was full of explosives, booby trap, none of them went off.

And so, we have seen that before. It's just you have an Arabic last name, it's terrorism instead of a booby trap.

CAMEROTA: Their getaway was also unusual in terms of how it normally plays out with mass shootings.

JORDAN: That's true.

CAMEROTA: Often the mass shooters kill themselves at the scene or they were killed at the scene by police. Were these two trying to get away?

JORDAN: I think they were. This is where the terrorism thing fell apart. It seems so tactically sophisticated and yet it was sloppy. If there were a numbers game, they'd kill fewer than half the people that were shot. The fact of the matter was, they were so vindictive about getting, causing mayhem. They went back and checked out the carnage, to know they had gotten even.

They had gone back to the apartment, who does that? That is when the chase began. Who goes back to their home? They had been so focused on the act, they didn't do much prepare for the getaway.

You have them shooting out the window. Not striking anybody and then, of course, dying for their cause. The cause, of course, was getting even. I will agree there could be components that they were wanting us to be afraid and terrorized. But there is no, as far as I can tell so far, political or religious are ideology extremist thinking that was really driving this.

CAMEROTA: So, in your experience as a criminologist, what would confirm the work violence theory, if they told other people that he was somehow passed over -- I mean, what will be the evidence be?

JORDAN: You're going to find out probably with hr that there was some problem with his employee. That maybe he was disciplined or maybe he was harassed at work for being Middle Eastern or having that heritage. And that they did not protect him from harassment. Or he got a bad review.

There will be something. I hate to go back to the massacre of the reporters on air just a few months ago, but that was a disgruntled employee who took out his anger and that had been festering for years but it was filled because of our labor laws. So, we may never know exactly how deep it ran with the conflict at work. It could be one person in that room. But it was a roomful of county personnel and that's the key.

CAMEROTA: Casey Jordan, always great to get your perspective, thanks so much for being on NEW DAY.

JORDAN: Great to be here.

CAMEROTA: Let's go back to San Bernardino, where Chris is live on scene -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Alisyn.

There are two major aspects of dealing with this locally in San Bernardino, one is the scene that played out right through the city streets. So many people exposed to that. Homes being taken on with ricochet fire from what was going on in the streets with over 20 officers. And then what investigators are looking at in terms of this community and who did these two people know and who might have known more. We have a local reporter who was on scene and who knows what's going on in this community. We'll get their take, right after this.

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[06:48:00] CUOMO: Imagine watching a shootout like this take place, 20 police officers chasing an SUV, gunfire going both ways. We have someone who did see it. "The Riverside Press Enterprises" own uncovering the shooting as it unfolded.

Ali, today -- how do I say your last name?

ALI TADAYON, REPORTER, THE RIVERSIDE PRESS-ENTERPRISE: Tadayon.

CUOMO: Tadayon, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Tell me this, you're not used to seeing things like this. Nobody is. These are heaviest assault rifles that were being used, 20 officers, tons of rounds. Take us through the sounds and sights.

TADAYON: This is definitely the most intense incident I've ever reported on. I arrived on scene shortly after 11:00 after the initial shooting at the Inland Regional Center.

CUOMO: Right up the street.

TADAYON: Yes. And I was on the scene at the corner of Waterman and Orange Show Road where families were staging, they were accounting for employees that were there and bussing them out through a nearby church.

CUOMO: How did you get the call about a shoot-out?

TADAYON: My editor called me. I was actually on a lunch break. I cover breaking news on the mornings. My editor called me. They had a tip, so I headed out there.

CUOMO: What did you think it was going to be?

TADAYON: We had reports of mass casualties. That's what I understood the incident to be. Once I got there, I definitely understood more.

CUOMO: Somebody was picking up scanner traffic or something like that?

TADAYON: Scanner traffic and --

CUOMO: Officers were hearing a lot of rounds and just reporting that. Obviously, people make assumptions about rounds hitting people or things.

TADAYON: Correct.

CUOMO: This is really about trying to create suppressive fire on this vehicle.

What did it sound like from your perspective?

TADAYON: Well, I couldn't hear the gunshots.

CUOMO: You didn't hear any of them?

TADAYON: No, no.

CUOMO: We keep hearing from people who were like, they've never heard anything like that, so many rounds being exchanged. What did you hear?

TADAYON: Well, after the second shooting involving the police, I went out to that scene. I got kind of stuck in the residential neighborhoods. They had closed off traffic in a number of streets in the area, while another person was -- another suspect was unaccounted for.

[06:50:00] CUOMO: Right. That was the earlier report that someone fled the scene of where the SUV was, tracked them down. Wound up not being connected to the event as far as police know so far. Did you get to see the SUV?

TADAYON: I did not, no.

CUOMO: And what did you hear about what that location after that was all done?

TADAYON: Well, I was talking with residents in the neighborhood. And they were all giving me their own accounts of hearing the gunshots, and looking outside their windows, and staying inside. and being directed to stay inside their homes.

CUOMO: Safety first no question.

TADAYON: Right.

CUOMO: But a question that will grow out of this, what does it mean about how safe people feel and how they wound up being suspects in this situation. You know, one of them a Muslim-American. The other one apparently, his wife, we're still learning about that relationship.

What was their take on why this happened and what it means to them?

TADAYON: Well, yesterday, when information was unfolding, people were confused about what was going on. But I think the first things on their minds, were their loved ones OK. When I first got to the scene, that's what people were more concerned with. Even though they received text messages or calls that they were safe, I think the first thing on their mind was getting to them and making sure they're safe.

CUOMO: But as tell the audience because there was an explosive device in there and the bomb squad could go in. Even though there were deceased inside, they couldn't do any vetting they needed to. What was like for people waiting?

TADAYON: I mean, there were definitely a lot of people waiting a long time. I talked to one man, whose wife was in the building, she was OK, not shot. But she was waiting throughout for hours, going from place to place, as far as being in a place where they could reunite. Thankfully, they were texting each other. They could communicate that way.

CUOMO: But in a situation, until you see them and feel them, and all you're dealing with is the fear and panic.

TADAYON: That's the consensus I felt. I talked to a number of people, you know, the first thing their loved ones did is text them or call them. Even still, they had to see them, just to make sure everybody was OK.

CUOMO: According to police, one person was shot and still texted home. Got in touch with family saying I was shot. But I'm OK.

Hey, listen, I'm glad you're OK. Thank you for being with us.

TADAYON: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: I know you had a long night. I'm glad you're safe. I appreciate it, Ali.

TADAYON: Thanks.

CUOMO: So, there's no question that in terms of specifics, there are a lot of unknown here. Investigators very much on edge looking for things. But there is context. We do know that 14 people being murdered makes this the deadliest mass shooting since Newtown. That there were two shooters makes that the first time that happened since Columbine.

The question hanging over it in terms of motive was, was this terrorism? What works in favor of that? We'll give that to you, coming up.

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[06:55:52] PEREIRA: So, investigators are trying to find a motive behind that massacre in San Bernardino, California. Was it terror? This incident is particularly unusual. It's rare to see two people carry out mass shooting.

I want to discuss this with CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI special agent Jon Gilliam.

John, you know, it's horrifying that we talk about these, but we need to know what we know, what could be, such an interesting point that there were multiple shooters in this. We know that statistics don't show that. That's a very rare occurrence in U.S. history. I think the last time we saw this Dylan Klebold and his active shooter situation.

How does that change and inform the investigation?

JONATHAN GILLIAM, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mea, there's a lot of things that we're looking at here that are going to manipulate and push this investigation from one point to another. The fact that a female was involved is probably one of the biggest things. In 2012 in Vegas, there was a male and female involved in a shooting that killed several police.

But --

PEREIRA: What do you make of the fact that she was involved?

GILLIAM: Well, I mean, this could go so many different ways. The potential -- what I like to focus on in this is the things that we know, and the possibilities where they could lead. When you do an investigation, you have a certain set of puzzles or pieces of a puzzle that you're putting together. And a lot of times you can assume what the other pieces may be until you find them and click them in. You have to be careful with those assumptions.

So, when it comes to the fact that there's a female and a male involved with this, we've seen that overseas, when it comes to Islamic attacks. That's the first thing that kind of pops up. But you know, after talking to some of the psychologists, we can also see a man that's -- you know, hell-bent on --

PEREIRA: Retribution?

GILLIAM: Some kind of an attack. And he gets his wife spun up into it as well. Especially if they're part of an ideology that holds on to --

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: That's what's so key, as we're putting the pieces together this was a workplace shooting effectively, or was it terror? I mean, there's no doubt that hundreds of people evacuated were terrorized in the hours and minutes this played out, 14 dead, 17 injured.

To you, does it feel like there are links to terrorism? Or does it feel more like in a workplace shooting scenario?

GILLIAM: Well, for me, there's so many different things that are adding up here that point to ideological terrorism. We have yet to see that specific link. But the fact of, you know, who these individuals are, what they believe in, the tactics that they used -- when you start to add that picture together, regardless of the psychological state, you start to see somewhat of a picture of terrorism.

We have to remember that terrorism is a tactic. It's not a group. It's a tactic. And that is a tactic where you take violence instill fear or intimidation for political change. That's where I think we're going to have to look at specifically what their motivation was.

PEREIRA: And final question for you, you talk about tactics, what is from a tactical point stood out to you how the police handled this situation as it unfolded yesterday?

GILLIAM: I think it's across the board now that we need to train regular officers better. They need better equipment, heavier vests, ballistics helmets, long guns. All officers need that. At the same time, SWAT is very important. But all the money and all the training doesn't need to go to SWAT, because we see SWAT again and again and again in this zone.

The other thing that I saw gets repeated over and over again, they fill all the forces at one place at one time. We need to know how to do blocking forces and send in an assault group like in the military. It works a lot better. And then you can also manage your people better.

PEREIRA: Jonathan Gilliam, we're going to call on you again, I'm sure. Thanks for joining us this hour.

GILLIAM: You got it.

PEREIRA: Following a lot of news this morning. We need to get to it right away.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CUOMO: To viewers in the U.S. and around the world, you are watching NEW DAY. Alisyn and Mick are in New York. We are in San Bernardino, California.