Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Farook Was in Touch with Terror Subjects Known to FBI; Shooter's Family Attorney Speaks Out. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired December 04, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After hearing the gunfire, she dropped to the floor. She was shot one time in her lower back.

[05:58:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got the telephone call. I immediately broke down and went into hysterics.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: The deadliest mass shooting since Newtown, Connecticut.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Seventy-six rounds, killing 14 people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The situation was surreal. It was unspeakable. The carnage that we were seeing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At least one of the San Bernardino shooters may have been radicalized.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've never seen a terrorist go to their workplace and kill their colleagues.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why would he do something like this? I have absolutely no idea. I'm in shock.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe every citizen here should be armed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to have to, I think, search ourselves as a society to make it harder, not impossible, but harder for individuals to get access to weapons.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: To our viewers across the United States and around the world, you are watching NEW DAY. Alisyn and Michaela are in New York. We're in San Bernardino, California.

There is a lot of new information that morning -- this morning that makes this far less of a mystery for investigators, yet no less troubling. The headline is this.

Law enforcement sources say the male shooter was apparently radicalized. Their basis? They say he was in touch with terror suspects -- subjects overseas. But officials point out there could have been other factors in the attack, as well. This is still a very open investigation.

And authorities are revealing also that they have recovered two smashed cell phones in a garbage can near the massacre scene. And a computer at the shooter's home was missing its hard drive. Investigators also finding an arsenal of weapons and pipe bombs inside the shooter's home, suggesting more carnage certainly could have been planned.

Let's begin our coverage with CNN's Victor Blackwell. He is live in Redlands, California, outside that home -- Victor.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Chris, we're just a few feet from their front door. The windows and doors now boarded up, this effective bomb factory here. As we're getting some details about the electronics recovered from inside this home and from crime scenes as we're getting details as well about the carnage these two left in their wake.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL (voice-over): More clues unearthed, but still no clear motive. Among the latest discoveries, two smashed cell phones, thought to have belonged to shooter Syed Rizwan Farook and his wife, Tashfeen Malik. The phones hidden behind a trash bin near one of the crime scenes.

Also found, a computer with a missing hard drive. Investigators believe it may have been removed or destroyed, potentially to cover their tracks. Investigators now issuing subpoenas to major service providers to try to retrieve information.

DAVID BOWDICH, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FBI LOS ANGELES OFFICE: If you look at the amount of obvious preplanning that went in, there was obviously a mission here. We know that. We do not know why. It would be irresponsible and premature of me to call this terrorism.

BLACKWELL: Law enforcement sources say Rizwan Farook appears to have been radicalized and had sporadic contact with international terror subjects. The FBI and White House cautious not to rule out any possible motives.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is possible that this was terrorist-related. But we don't know. And it's also possible that this was workplace-related.

BLACKWELL: A raid on the couple's Redlands home uncovering a veritable bomb lab in the garage, 12 pipe bombs, hundreds of tools that could be used to make more bombs and thousands of rounds of ammunition. These images, obtained by CBS News, purport to show explosive devises found at Rizwan Farook's home.

JARROD BURGUAN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE CHIEF: They were equipped and could have continued to do another attack. We intercepted them before that happened within obviously.

BLACKWELL: Overnight, one of the first police officers on the scene of the shooting describing it as an unprecedented tragedy in his career.

LT. MIKE MADDEN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE: It was unspeakable, the carnage that we were seeing, the number of people who were injured and unfortunately already dead. And the pure panic on the face of those individuals that were still in need and needing to be safe.

BLACKWELL: Hundreds gathering late Thursday inside San Manuel Stadium in San Bernardino to mourn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): God Bless America...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): God Bless America...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): God Bless America...

BLACK: As the names of each of the 14 victims were read aloud.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): ... land that I love.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): ... land that I love.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): ... land that I love.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: So the key questions this morning, was he and/or his wife radicalized? If so, how? And if so, why isn't this mass murder being called terrorism?

CNN chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto has more on all of this for us. We know you've been following this investigation again overnight. What do we know?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Chris, first thing you do with an investigation like this, you look at travel and you look at communication, particularly overseas travel, overseas communications. Here's what they find.

First, let's talk about their contacts. So Farook, he communicated with terrorism suspects, subjects rather, by phone and through social media. These are soft connections. What does that mean? It doesn't mean he spoke to ISIS or al Qaeda recruiters, operators, leaders. He spoke with sympathizers online, jihadi forums, et cetera, known to the FBI. Not the same as speaking to a terror leader, but this is key. Because in cases like this, that is often a path to terrorism to have those kinds of contacts online.

Doesn't mean that was the case for sure. It's not definitive. But that is been a path -- a path to terrorism in the past. That's why it's important to investigators at this point.

Let's look at this overseas travel. I've spoken to both U.S. and Saudi officials now. We confirmed some details about this trip. It took place in July 2014, nine days, went from Chicago to the city of Jeddah in Saudi Arabia. Two U.S. officials tell CNN that he also visited in 2013 Saudi

Arabia and that that's the visit where he is likely to have met his wife. His family has said that they first met on a dating website. It appears he may have gone to Saudi Arabia to meet her there.

Let's talk a little bit more about her, then. So she's 27 years old. They've been married for two years, the mother of a 6-month-old child with Farook. You'll remember the details. They left that child at a grandparent's house the morning of the shooting, saying they had to go to a doctor's appointment.

She came to the U.S. on what's known as a fiance visa, a K-1 visa, after she arrived here she was granted legal permanent residence. That's what's known as a green card while she was here. She gained a green card, a visa while she was here in the U.S.

So these at this point, Chris, they're not definitive. But they're key, and they're raising red flags for investigators as they explore this one path, this possible terrorist explanation for these crimes. But as you and I have cautioned many times, they're also looking at workplace violence and, frankly, they're looking at some combination of the two. And there is some precedent for that. We've seen cases in France. We've seen another case in the U.S. where someone had both Islamic extremist tendencies but also a workplace problem. And that came together to a violent end.

Chris, back to you.

CUOMO: And if the investigators are cautious, so should we be. Jim Sciutto, thank you very much. We'll check back with you soon.

All right. We do have breaking news and something that you're not going to see anywhere else this morning. Not long ago we spoke with the attorneys for the shooter's family. This was a long and probative interview covering a lot of ground. And frankly, it was surprising, with both what was and was not known by the family.

[06:05:09] And then we got into why the attorneys and the family are not ready to call this terrorism and why they have questions about the key facts in the case. Let's start there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Where do you go with this in terms of how they explain how he went from someone they knew and loved to somebody who could do something so monstrous?

DAVID S. CHELSEY, FAMILY'S ATTORNEY: There's a lot of disconnects and there's a lot of unknowns; and there's a lot of things that, quite frankly, don't add up or seem implausible.

I don't -- she was never involved in shooting. She's probably about 90 pounds. So it's unlikely she could even carry a weapon or wear some type of a vest or do any of this.

Where the couple was found, from what I understand, is that they were handcuffed, lying face down in this truck, shot up. There's a lot of things that just don't make sense.

You know, no one has ever seen Syed with any of the things that they -- I mean, with some of the things they found on the scene. They haven't seen him with them.

CUOMO: Like what?

CHELSEY: The pipe bombs, for example. No one has ever seen him use or have anything like that. And it just doesn't make sense for these two to be able to act like some kind of Bonnie and Clyde or something. It's just ridiculous. It doesn't add up. They don't have the military skills to carry out something like this, really, frankly.

CUOMO: Well, authorities go back and forth on whether or not this shows sophistication or lack of sophistication in terms of how it was carried out. But are you saying that you're not sure that they did this?

CHELSEY: I'm just telling you straight out that it doesn't -- it doesn't make sense. It looks like -- if somebody had military training or something, yes, but there was none of that. And this person was not aggressive.

We sat with the FBI for three hours, and they tried to identify some characteristics or some affiliations that he might have had that could have led him to act in this way. And they couldn't find anything. They were totally stumped, totally frustrated. You know, in the media, some have said that it may be work related, like he was disgruntled in some way. But really, everyone is clueless, because there's nothing that would characterize him to act in this manner.

CUOMO: But to be clear, does the family have any doubts as to whether or not this was him and his wife who did it? Because the authorities have none, as you know.

MOHAMMAD ABUERSHAD, FAMILY'S ATTORNEY: I think the family has come to terms with the situation as the facts have been coming out. And they've been very accepting of it. They send their apologies and their wishes and their prayers to everybody who lost their lives. And they've let that -- they've let that be known already.

So I think the family has been accepting of everything that has come out through the media, through the police reports. And they're very remorseful, and they're very sad. They lost two family members of their own, as well.

CUOMO: I just want to make sure I'm hearing the same thing from you, Counselor.

CHELSEY: Sure, sure.

CUOMO: It seems like you're saying, it doesn't make sense, she might not have done this.

CHELSEY: I'm just telling as an attorney. I don't speak for the family and their views. And they're not -- they're not deniers in any way. They're not -- they're not actually affiliated with this in any way.

They were really surprised to hear about these events. They were shocked. When they started to hear about them, they were worried for the safety of Syed. They thought that he might have been getting attacked. They were -- they were completely shocked when they found out about it.

So they're not denying anything. I'm just telling you, from an attorney's perspective in the cases I've had, it -- the facts don't make sense. That's all I would say.

CUOMO: That's the part I don't get. I know that you're not here to plead the case for the people who did the killing, I hope.

CHELSEY: Yes. I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated.

ABUERSHAD: I think what David is trying to say...

CUOMO: No. The officers say they took fire from this SUV, the people in the SUV were him and her. That's kind of the end of the analysis of possibility.

ABUERSHAD: Chris, as you know, as an attorney yourself, you do also understand that we have to wait for everything to come in, not just bits and parts of the factual basis.

CUOMO: What could come in? Give me a possibility. What could come in?

ABUERSHAD: I don't know what could come in. But there's more information that we just haven't received yet. You guys haven't received everything yet. Nobody has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Well, that is true. The investigation is ongoing. But, again, one of the reasons that this was an unusual interview, and there's a lot more in there that we have not heard before. And you're going to get to see it coming up.

But right now, we should go through what we've already heard. Let's bring in retired Chief Jim Bueermann. He's the former police chief here in Redlands, California. He's also president of the Police Foundation down in D.C. And retired Sergeant Cheryl Dorsey, friend of the show; served 20 years with the LAPD. It's good to have both of you here.

Jim, thank you.

Cheryl, as always.

Let's be fair and clear. One, by all indications, the family is not under any umbrella of suspicion from federal authorities. They've been doing everything voluntarily. The attorneys very pressing on that point. And also, that they are not in a place, in terms of conclusions,

that the investigators are not. They're not calling it terrorism either.

[06:09:59] But there is one point. The lack of clarity for the counsel and the family, based on facts that this may or may not be them. Chief, from what you know of those investigating, do they have any question whether it was this man and this woman who entered that building?

JIM BUEERMANN (RET.), FORMER POLICE CHIEF, REDLANDS, CALIFORNIA: There's no doubt whatsoever that these are the people responsible for this. The attorneys are paid to represent the family. They're paid to try to pitch a particular perspective.

But the one attorney that says that there's some indication they were found handcuff in the back seat of the car. Apparently, he hasn't seen the video the rest of the world has seen, where this woman was removed from the SUV by the police, on video. You can see it for everybody to watch, and she's clearly not handcuffed. And this was at the end of the pursuit where she and her husband have been firing assault weapons at the police officers. So there's no doubt that these are the people responsible.

CUOMO: And they say the family has come to terms with it. There's a little bit of this may be lawyer play. That is what they are. That is the business that a lawyer is in. And that's why you hire them.

But it also goes to the question of, well, it may not have been just them, right? Investigators are still wanting to know, well, who knew? Because they have some of the questions that the attorneys do. How did they learn how to use these bombs? How did they learn how to go in there and shoot? And you can argue their effectiveness and their discipline. But they still killed 14 people, and it could have involved more help on different lives, right, Cheryl?

CHERYL DORSEY, FORMER LAPD DETECTIVE: Right. And you know, I think it's very difficult for anyone to say what another adult will or will not do. Right? We know these people, and we interact with family members in a way, and we see them in a way that is very foreign to what we now know about these people. Right?

And so I understand why the family is in a bit of denial. But I don't think anyone can say with certainly what someone will or won't do.

CUOMO: I don't want to project on to the family what the attorneys are saying with respect to the case. That's their business assessing the facts. Family again has been forthcoming with investigators. And that's important because of the atmosphere and the community right now of doubt.

Ninety-pound woman, probably couldn't have done it. Cheryl Dorsey, in your experience, how many diminutive women have you seen capable of doing very terrible things? DORSEY: Well, listen, you know, I've never fired an assault

weapon, but I do know that for a firearm, which I have fired, you only need two pounds of pressure. So to pull the trigger, you don't need tremendous upper body strength. You don't need to have special knowledge. All you need to know how to do is just squeeze and pull. And so certainly at any -- you know, 90 pounds, 100 pounds, you can do that.

CUOMO: And you need something that doesn't weigh anything except extremely on your conscience, which was the desire to kill innocent people. Which was also exhibited here in horrible fashion.

Another big question: why aren't the investigators calling this terrorism? Is this just about clinging to the specifics of that definition that you have to show intent was to scare the government or the public at large?

BUEERMANN: Well, in one of the press conferences yesterday, the assistant director from the FBI was talking very clearly about a very strict definition for terrorism that the FBI uses. And I think they're going to be very diligent in making sure that, before they use that term, they're going to want to make sure that they have absolute proof that it fits that definition. I think for everybody else, certainly the police officers involved in this, the general public at large, you know, that train has left the station. I think everybody -- how do you ignore the facts of this case? The assault weapons, the firing on the officers, and the amount of ammunition, the pipe bombs.

CUOMO: The radicalization, if that's an aspect of it.

BUEERMANN: Right I mean, semantics.

CUOMO: I mean, if you take them out, why do they care, though, Sergeant? At this point, the guy and his wife are dead. They're not going to make a case, at least not against them.

DORSEY: See, for me, Chris, I have a completely different belief about this situation. I think this really is a Christopher Dorner situation with a twist to it. I think that this is really about workplace issues...

CUOMO: Christopher Dorner, as you know -- for you if you don't remember out there, he was also here in California and led a huge manhunt, a very dangerous guy. He had been an officer -- Cheryl.

DORSEY: And so there was tremendous planning that went into that whole thing when Christopher Dorner felt a grievance with the department. He spent many, many, probably months and years tracking the family members. So to think that these people spent an inordinate amount of time preparing somehow means that it can't be work-related doesn't ring true for me.

I think that probably because there was an ongoing situation in the workplace and maybe every time he felt offended he went home and bought another box of ammunition, he prepared another pipe bomb. Because unless and until you've gone against a super power -- and I have, the LAPD -- and you have tried to do everything the right way and you don't get any cooperation from your supervisors because they wear you down or grind you down, you do things out of character.

CUOMO: Understood. Understood. And to be clear, we're pushing the discussion because that's what you want to do, because people have questions about whether or not it's terrorism.

But to be clear, the investigators have questions, as well. I know it's frustrating to many. But they are not ruling out a workplace component to this. That's one of the questions that remains. Chief, sergeant, thank you very much for being with us. We'll talk more about the other parts of the interview.

[06:14:59] But let's remember why so many people want this to be taken as seriously as possible, including if that means calling it terrorism. Because those of the people and the families who will never be the same after this. Fourteen lives taken, 17 more, now 21 more, still fighting to are their lives. That's why there are calls to remember the people who are on your screen right now and who we will show you through the show. These people will never get to hear this discussion, and their families have to live with what happened. So we're going to show you them to remember. We're also going to talk about how we can stop this going forward with a local lawmaker. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Investigators have a lot more information here in San Bernardino than they did yesterday. They still have questions about why this mass shooting at a community center happened in the first place. And they're still picking up the pieces of understanding it as an entire community.

Why did this man have so many weapons? What was his motivation for him and his wife to make a dozen pipe bombs that certainly could have created unimaginable casualties.

[06:20:08] Let's bring in Democratic Congressman Pete Aguilar of California. He represents San Bernardino.

Congressman, thank you for being here. Regret that it's under these circumstances. But, you know, you're in touch with the community. We're here with them all day, had dinner with them last night. Their concerns are obvious. Am I safe? What do you say to them?

REP. PETE AGUILAR (D), CALIFORNIA: Yes. Residents of San Bernardino, the residents of the inland empire are safe. Authorities are working hand in glove to ensure the community's continued safety. I've been in constant dialogue with the FBI and ATF, as well as local authorities, the sheriffs, San Bernardino Police Department, Redlands, and surrounding communities.

CUOMO: Police work was swift. The confidence in the first response has to be strong from what we saw, the heroism of the chase. The cell phone video of the officer assuring other employees "I would take a bullet for you, you better know that." That part is solid here.

What isn't is, look who did it, Congressman. They were Muslims who did it. It's always Muslims. Is that 100 percent accurate?

AGUILAR: No.

CUOMO: Not on the facts of shootings but it is the residence of the fear right now. What do you say to people?

AGUILAR: What I say to people, is that there have been mass shootings throughout the United States this year, perpetrated by people of different races. And what we need to do is not jump to conclusions and not fuel this anymore.

We need to come together. This is a time where we can honor those families who are going through this tragedy, those 14 and those additionals as you mentioned, those 21 families who are still struggling. You know, we need to help them pick the pieces up. And we don't help by fanning the flame of Islamophobia or anything else.

So we'll continue to build as a community, and that's the most important thing that we can do, in addition to sending our thoughts and prayers.

CUOMO: More than a few citizens of that Redland area and here in greater San Bernardino have come up and they're scared themselves. They're scared for their safety, and they're scared for the perception of them here. So the idea of community is certainly going to be tested.

Now, there's also another intolerance, which is we want this to be considered the worst kind of murdering that there is. For many, that's the word terrorism. It's not being applied yet by investigators, even though they seem to be learning more and more things that make that seem obvious to people. Why not?

AGUILAR: Well, I'm not going to get in the way of the active investigation that's going on. But I've called this an act of terror on my community. That's exactly what it is. I'm less concerned about the legal definition of terrorism is and I'm more concerned about how this affects my community.

And I can tell you that, when folks have to shelter in place, and when there's gun violence going on, you know, those are -- those are things that are difficult as a community to the take. And that's what I would define as an act of terrorism on my community.

CUOMO: So what are you going to do? We've heard this little spin in the political sphere of thoughts and prayers are good but not enough. Act on those intentions. What can be done that would have made this not happen?

AGUILAR: Well, there's plenty of things that could have been done from a policy perspective that we know. I'm not comfortable saying that any one thing will end mass shootings in America. But I think that there is so much more that we can do. First

let's start by lifting the ban that the CDC has in actually gathering research and data on gun shootings and violence that's one thing that the federal government can and should be doing. In addition to assault weapons bans, in addition to making sure those on the no-fly list don't have access to firearms, those are things that we should be doing and policy prescriptions that I hope are taken up in the future.

CUOMO: You know what people will say. Every time you pass new laws, who do you make it harder for? People who want guns legally. And then even then, look at this guy. He bought his handguns three, four years ago. There was no reason or no law that would have made him ineligible.

AGUILAR: I haven't -- I haven't met a lot individuals who have said that access to background checks, gun owners support that, members of the NRA support that.

CUOMO: You have them in California, some of the strictest in the nation.

AGUILAR: We don't have universal background checks on every gun purchase. We also are three hours away from Arizona and Nevada, who have very, very different rules and laws when it comes to gun purchases.

We also have assault weapons that are sold and then modified after market. There are plenty of policy prescriptions that we can do. But right now, the important thing is to remember the community, to continue to work with them. There was a vigil last night that I attended with thousands of members of our community. Those are the important things that we can do as we start to heal San Bernardino and the inland empire.

CUOMO: Twenty-one people still fighting for their lives on different levels and hospitals. Fourteen families will never be the same, having lost what can't be replaced, their loved ones. We understand that. That's why we're here, congressman, thank you for coming to talk to us.

AGUILAR: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

CUOMO: Absolutely.

All right. So we're still dealing with the main question this morning, which was exactly why, what led these shooters to commit this massacre? What did those closest to them see or not see? What did they know or not know? We have more of the interview with the lawyers for the shooter's family ahead. You'll want to see it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:29:03] CUOMO: We have new information in the mass murder here in California, pointing toward radicalization and deadly intentions on a mass scale. Sources say the male shooter was radicalized, in touch with

terror subjects overseas. The feds are now going through his contacts. There were two smashed cell phones also recovered near the shooting scene. Purportedly to destroy communications that may have been made by the shooters. Officials now trying to recover that data.

Bomb-making materials, an arsenal of weapons, thousands and thousands of rounds of ammo, also found in the attackers home, suggesting an even bigger attack could have been in the making.

So that is what we know from here this morning. There's certainly more answers, Alisyn and Michaela, than we had yesterday, but there are still key, key questions.

ALISON CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Chris. We'll get back to you for all of that. But we do have some other news that we're following. In fact, we have some breaking news, this out of Egypt. At least 12 people killed, 5 others injured in this fire bomb attack on a nightclub. This is outside Cairo. Egyptian media reports say that masked assailants hit the club with Molotov cocktails. Authorities believe the motive for the attack was criminal, not terrorism.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: A senior European counterterrorism...