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Shooters in San Bernardino Mass Shooting Profiled; Partner of Shooting Victim Interviewed; Family Attorneys Question Shooters' Involvement. Aired 8:00-8:30a ET

Aired December 04, 2015 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: -- attack was apparently radicalized. They believe they have information that leads them down that way. But they are not where they need to be in terms of to make that as the conclusion. Investigators have recovered two smashed cell phones near the massacre and a hard drive was missing from a computer at the shooter's home that is also suggestive in that direction.

And also we now know what remained in the home that could take them in different directions in terms of motivation -- an arsenal of weapons, over a dozen pipe bombs, material, tools, proof they could be planning more attacks or something far worse.

Now, in moments we're going to speak to someone who lost a loved one in this massacre because the victims matter most. But first let's get our coverage of the investigation and the facts and new information so you're up to date. We have CNN's Victor Blackwell outside the subject's home in Redlands, California. It's good to have you.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Chris, good morning to you. The doors and windows here boarded up, indications that this phase of the physical evidence collection is complete. We also know the FBI is now investigating and interviewing members of their families to try to get answers about the motive.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: More clues unearthed but still no clear motive. Among the latest discoveries two smashed cell phones thought to have belonged to the shooters, Syed Rizwan Farook and his wife, Tashfeen Malik, the phones hidden behind a trash bin near one of the crime scenes. Also found, a computer with a missing hard drive. Investigators believe it may have been removed or destroyed potentially to cover their tracks. Investigators now issuing subpoenas to major service providers to try to retrieve information.

DAVID BOWDICH, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FBI LOS ANGELES OFFICE: If you look at the amount of obvious preplanning that went in, there was obviously a mission here. We know that. We do not know why. It would be irresponsible and premature of me to call this terrorism.

BLACKWELL: Law enforcement forces say Rizwan Farook appears to have been radicalized and had sporadic contact with international terror subjects. The FBI and White House cautious not to rule out any possible motives.

BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is possible that this was terrorist related, but we don't know. It is also possible that this was workplace related.

BLACKWELL: A raid on the couple's Redlands home uncovering a veritable bomb lab in the garage, 12 pipe bombs, hundreds of tools that could be used to make more bombs, and thousands of rounds of ammunition. These images obtained by CBS News purport to show explosive devices found at Rizwan Farook's home.

JARROD BURGUAN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE CHIEF: Clearly they were equipped and they could have continued to do another attack. We intercepted them before that happened obviously.

BLACKWELL: Overnight one of the first police officers on the scene of the shooting describing it as an unprecedented tragedy in his career.

LT. MIKE MADDEN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE: It was unspeakable the carnage that we were seeing, the number of people who were injured and unfortunately already dead. And the pure panic on the face of those individuals that were still in need and needing to be safe.

BLACKWELL: Hundreds gathering late Thursday inside San Manuel stadium in San Bernardino to mourn.

(SINGING)

BLACKWELL: As the names of each of the 14 victims were read aloud.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: A window into the horror and agony that has the community crying out why. That leads the investigators to search for motive, and they are still reluctant to call it terrorism. Why? They say they don't know enough, even if this man may have been radicalized. How do we make sense of that? CNN chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto is tasked with that. They're saying they're still going down two different paths. What are the pieces that they have, and what are the suggestions?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: What do you do right now? You look at communications, you look at travel, particularly foreign communications, foreign travel. Here is what they found so far for the shooter, Farook. So he communicated with known terrorism subjects by phone and through social media. These are considered soft communications. That means he wasn't talking to recruiters or leaders with groups like ISIS or Al Qaeda but sympathizers, people on jihadi social forums, people known to the FBI but not necessarily operational. That is a distinction. It is an important one, but doesn't rule anything out because that is also a known path to terrorist acts. The previous perpetrators of this kind of violence have done that kind of thing in advance of attacks like that this, and that has often led to radicalization. Not definitive at this point, but it is something they're looking at.

Another thing they look at is foreign travel, international travel. I've spoken to both U.S. and Saudi officials. They say that he, Farook, went to Saudi Arabia in July of 2014 for nine days. He went from Chicago through London and that this was for what is known as the lesser pilgrimage, the Umrah. The Hajj is another time of the year. That's the main one where Muslims will often go there. This is a lesser one. But this was during that same time period.

[08:05:00] We're also told CNN by two officials there was another trip to Saudi Arabia in 2013, and during that trip when we've been told he may have met his wife. Let's talk more about his wife Tashfeen Malik, 27-years-old. She's of Pakistani descent. They have been married for two years. They were parents to a six-month-old child, you may remember. They dropped that child off at a grandparent's house the morning of the shooting. They said they had a doctor's appointment. They went on to carry out this violence.

Farook met Tashfeen in Saudi Arabia. She came back to the U.S. on what's known as a fiance visa. That's allowed. It's a K1 visa. And after she arrived here she got her green card. She got legal permanent residence.

Now, to be clear, Chris, as you say, investigators have not determined definitively the motivation behind this attack. All these signs are interesting. They are important. They are not definitive by themselves or collectively at this point, but they have opened up this possibility that terrorism was a motivation here, but they are still not ruling out workplace violence and they are also not ruling out some sort of combination. And to be clear, there is some precedent for that. Chris?

CUOMO: All right, Jim Sciutto, thank you very much, appreciate you taking us through it.

One thing we can clarify, that is according to the shooter's family, they didn't drop off the six month old child. They simply left the child at home because they lived with the shooter's mother, and she was just left there to take care of the child. So a little bit of a different fact pattern. It takes you to the same place, and a lot of the questions go to the family.

Now, we had the opportunity to sit down the attorneys for the shooter's family. What did they know? What did they not know? They wanted to talk about that. But they also have their own concerns about whether or not this is terrorism and some questions about the facts of the situation as well. Here is that conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Where do you go with this in terms of how they explain how he went from someone they knew and loved to somebody who could do something so monstrous?

DAVID S. CHELSEY, SHOOTERS' FAMILY'S ATTORNEY: There is a lot of disconnects and there is a lot of unknowns and there is a lot of things that quite frankly don't add up or seem implausible. I -- I don't -- she was never involved in shooting. She's probably about 90 pounds, so it is unlikely she could even carry a weapon or wear some type of vest or do any of this. Where the couple was found from what I understand is that they were handcuffed lying face down in this truck shot up. There is a lot of things that just don't make sense.

You know, no one has ever seen Syed with any of the things that they -- I mean with some of the things they found on the scene, they haven't seen him with them.

CUOMO: Like what?

CHELSEY: The pipe bombs for example. No one had ever seen him use or have anything like that. And it just doesn't make sense for these two to be able to act like some kind of Bonnie and Clyde or something. It's just ridiculous. It doesn't add up. He doesn't have the military skills to carry out something like this really, frankly.

CUOMO: Well, authorities go back and forth whether or not this shows sophistication or lack of sophistication in terms of how it was carried out. But are you saying you are not sure they did this?

CHELSEY: I'm just telling you straight out that it doesn't make sense. It looks like -- if somebody had military training or something, yes. But there was none of that. And this person was not aggressive.

We sat with the FBI for three hours and they tried to identify some characteristics or some affiliations that he might have had that could have led him to act in this way. And they couldn't find anything. They were totally stumped, totally frustrated. In the media some have said that it may be work-related, like he was disgruntled in some way. But really everyone was clueless because there was nothing that would characterize him to act in this manner.

CUOMO: But to be clear, does the family have any doubts as to whether or not this was him and his wife who did it? Because the authorities have none, as you know.

MOHAMMAD ABUERSHAID, SHOOTERS' FAMILY'S ATTORNEY: I think the families come to terms with the situation. As the facts have been coming out and they have been very accepting of it. They send their apologies and their wishes and their prayers to everybody who lost their lives, and they have let that be known already. So I think the family has been accepting of everything that has come out through the media, through the police reports. And they are very remorseful and they are very sad. They lost two family members of their own as well.

CUOMO: I want to make sure I'm hearing the same from you counsel.

CHELSEY: Sure, sure.

CUOMO: It seems like you're saying it doesn't make sense, that she might not have done this. CHELSEY: I'm just telling you as an attorney. I don't speak for

the family and their views. And they are not deniers in any way. They are not actually affiliated with this in any way. They were really surprised to hear about these events. They were shocked. When they started to hear about them they were worried for the safety of Syed. They thought he might have been getting attacked. They were completely shocked when they found out about it. So they are not denying anything. I'm just telling you from an attorney's perspective and the cases I've had, the facts don't make sense.

[08:10:03] CUOMO: That is the part I don't get. I know you are not here to plead the case for the people who did the killing, I hope.

CHELSEY: Right. I'm frustrated about it.

CUOMO: The officer saying he took fire from the SUV. The people in the SUV were him and her. That's kind of the end of the analysis of possibilities.

ABUERSHAID: Chris, as you know as an attorney yourself you do also understand we have to wait for everything to come in, not just bits and parts of the factual basis.

CUOMO: What could come in? Give me a possibility. What could come in?

ABUERSHAID: I don't know what could come in. But there is more information we haven't received yet. You guys haven't received everything yet. Nobody has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: There is no question that there remains much unknown, but there is also plenty that is known. And one of the things that is known is that when that woman was in that SUV those officers were taking fire. And there was no handcuffing that at any point was relevant to any of the analysis according to investigators.

But feelings are feelings. It drives the family in their time of loss and what they're seeing in their community and how they feel responsible, whether they knew or not. And also it drives our interest in everything that happened here in San Bernardino -- 14 families lost something that cannot be replaced, 21 others are injured, and many still in local hospitals.

One of those lost, 42-year-old Daniel Kaufman. And when his partner of three years Ryan Reyes found out he was gone, it was 22 excruciating hours after the attack. A photographer from "The Los Angeles Times" happened to be in Ryan's home captured this image as he learned of his loss.

Joining me now is Ryan Reyes. Ryan, man, I wish I didn't have to meet you today in this way. But I understand what matters to you right now is that people know about your man.

RYAN REYES, PARTNER KILLED IN SHOOTING: Exactly. CUOMO: Tell me about him.

REYES: Daniel was an amazing man. I know it is very cliche and I know I've said this several times, that, you know, people say, oh, somebody's smile could light up a room. This was actually true of Daniel. And it's even been brought to my attention that I didn't even realize the impact that he had on some people's lives. I've had people reaching out to me from all over that had met Daniel maybe once 10 years ago. But he had so much impact on their lives that they actually remembered it. I mean, how many of us can actually say something like that. You know, you met somebody briefly 10 years ago but can still remember that person.

CUOMO: We have two people who were there that were in the show. They will be in the show again later, and when they were talking about this, they could hold it together with what they experienced. But when they mentioned Daniel and how he had run the coffee shop and how he had helped people in training, they got emotional right away because he had impacted their lives, he had meant something. How does that help right now?

REYES: It helps a lot knowing that he was so well-loved, especially because I know that now means that he will definitely live on with all of the people's lives that he touched. And hopefully this will also teach people to maybe kind of pay it forward like Daniel did to help him live on and make the world a better place, because I know the world definitely lost one of the better people in the world.

CUOMO: You are in the shock phase of dealing with this.

REYES: Yes.

CUOMO: Unimaginable. That waiting, what were you telling yourself during that?

REYES: I was trying to keep myself as positive as I possibly could. But as more information was known, like specifically what building and knowing that he was on his lunch break when it happened and knowing that he would have been outside -- it was one of those things that just kind of -- even though I was getting the conflicting reports at first about him just being shot in the arm but being OK and in the hospital, at the same time I was also hearing reports of people did see a body that was laying by a bench that was of somebody that had been deceased. And so I was hoping that it wasn't him. And it still hasn't been confirmed that he was the body that was outside. But that is kind of what we're pretty much assuming at this point because that is where he would have been, because he would have been outside smoking on his lunch break when it all started.

CUOMO: How did you finally hear?

REYES: I heard through his aunt. The coroner's office had gone to their house to break the news. And she called me and let me know that they were there and asked if I would want them to come see me. And I said yes, if you could just so I could try to ask them some questions. But, like I said, they didn't have the answers for me that, you know -- to the question I had about if he was the one that was outside or not.

But yes, that was how I find out. And, as you saw in the picture, it was just completely devastating.

[08:15:03] The thought running through my mind was just like "No, no, no, no, no. This isn't true. He's still in a hospital somewhere and just out of it and hasn't been able to reach us yet."

CUOMO: Were you trying to get him? Were you trying to text him, trying to call him?

REYES: Yes, I was. Immediately after I found out, I had tried several times. Sometimes it would go straight to voice mail because I'm assuming, obviously, other people were trying to contact him. Sometimes it would ring and go to voice mail.

I sent him numerous text messages. I called around to figure if anybody had heard from him. I was calling Pathways. Pathways is the one that actually runs the coffee shop.

And I was calling his aunt. And everybody knew that if he was going to contact anybody, he would have contacted me first. Just knowing -- not that he, you know, didn't care about everybody else's feelings, but knowing that I would have been especially freaking out, I would have been the first contacted him.

CUOMO: You were his man. You were the love of his life. That's who you go to first in a situation like that. So when you finally find out, that it is what you wanted to know at least in the world, how do you make sense of how somebody like this gets taken in a way like this?

REYES: I'm still trying to make sense of it. I think it is going to be a long time before I can actually make any real sense of it. The only thing I can think of is unfortunately it is events like this that really show you how important people are and how much people can actually impact other people's lives.

CUOMO: What did he mean to you?

REYES: Oh, he meant the world to me. He meant the absolute world to me. Yes. Sorry.

CUOMO: Listen, I know that this isn't easy. And I know that this is a conversation neither of us ever wanted to have. But I know it is important to you. And I know that you guys were very much in love. And how will that sustain for you now?

REYES: Well, it is definitely going to be difficult to move forward. But knowing that he would want me to be happy and kind of carry on his legacy, that is kind of what is going to drive me forward. It's probably going make me a little bit more of a positive person because I was very cynical trying to meeting Daniel, just because I had already dealt with the loss of a best friend and a partner within seven months from each other a few years back. And so, the fact that he was so caring and understanding and was

willing to take things slowly because I didn't know how I felt with actually being with someone again and then, you know, almost three years later I was considering, OK. Maybe I could get married, even though that was the farthest thought from my mind when I first met him.

CUOMO: Love will do that.

REYES: Yes.

CUOMO: What a gift that would be. Even though he's gone now you carry that piece forward.

What's that memory that you have right now that you are keeping in your head so that you stay positive?

REYES: The really silly grin he always had on his face especially when he was just chattering away, even when other people were tuning out, because that was one of the things that Daniel did. He just rambled. So you would just have to tune him out.

And actually when I was taking him to work that morning he was on one of those rants and I couldn't get a word in inch wise because he wouldn't breathe. You was da da da da da da about -- I don't remember what it was about because he would just do it about whatever. Oh I saw this an Facebook and da da da. And oh only Tumblr, da da da. And it's like oh can I comment on what you are telling me?

CUOMO: Now, it was good that he dominated the conversation because you had that many much more time with him, at least you got to see him that day. Hold onto the memory that makes you smile, because obviously it doesn't get any easier at least for a while.

But, Ryan, thank you for letting us know who was lost. That's why we're here. That's who matters and I wish you well going forward and please send the same to the family.

REYES: Thank you very much.

CUOMO: So, you are going to hear stories about who was lost in this. And you are going to learn about their families. And you are going to learn about what happens next. Whether it is the investigation or what happens as a community.

These were Muslims involved in this. That means nothing to some people. And it means everything to others. So, we're going to honor the victims and talk about what happens next here in San Bernardino. Remember those who are gone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:23:38] CUOMO: There is nothing about the situation in San Bernardino that makes it easy -- not for investigators, not for the families of those lost or injured, and not for the Muslim community either to be frank. Here in California and around the country they are dealing with

backlash after another attack by a so called radicalized Muslim. You just heard the attorneys for the killer say, the family, say it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense with his faith. It doesn't make sense with his behavior. And yet he is now representative of a great fear.

Joining us now is Hussam Ayloush. He is the executive director on the Council of American Islamic Relations in Los Angeles. And he's been close to the family throughout this ordeal.

Hussam, thank you very much for being with us.

HUSSAM AYLOUSH, COUNCIL OF AMERICAN ISLAMIC RELATIONS: Thanks for having me.

CUOMO: You know the concerns. You know the fears. You know what this feeds into.

What is the response of the community? We've heard from the attorneys for the family. We know they are hurt for those who were hurt and taken and they are hurt for what they lost as well. No matter what they did it was still their family. But Muslim, maybe radicalized, that means terrorist. That means here we go again.

What is your response?

AYLOUSH: Quick things. Being here, heavy on my heart, again, expressing my heartfelt condolences to the loved ones of all the injured, all the killed ones. It's just -- we're all one at this point. We don't look at the religion or the race of the victims.

[08:25:02] We're all Americans. We're all human beings and my prayers go to those families and to all those victims.

Now, dealing with the shooters themselves, I think it is important whether we find -- the investigation is still going on. We don't know for a fact what motivated that horrific act. Now, if it turns out radicalization was a reason behind it, I think we should be very careful not to link religion to it.

You know, radicals come in all shapes and forms. Terrorists come in all shapes and forms. We shouldn't link a religion to it, because then we are validating what these terrorists try to do. They try to claim to be representing that religion. We don't call the shooters in Colorado Springs a Christian terrorist. They're terrorists. We don't call them, when the KKK commits crime, we don't call them Christian terrorists.

CUOMO: I hear you. The investigators are making the same point about not being sure what the direct motivation is. But they are also pointing to radicalization.

But here is the push back. People will say the bad guy in Colorado may well have been Christian. Maybe he was motivated by a perverse sense of his faith. But you don't hear Christians, as often at least, coming out and saying, I do this in the way of Christianity the way we seem to experience it with Muslims and that drives a phobia. What do you say?

AYLOUSH: Well, of course. But we have to put it in perspective. There are 1.6 billion with a B, Muslims in the world. The number of people who join groups ISIS, Daesh, al Qaeda, is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of that whole number.

When we allow them to hijack the name Islam when they commit their horrific act, we are doing an injustice, unfair injustice towards the rest of the Muslims who reject such behavior, and we're giving these people a credit they don't deserve because they are claiming to be Muslim. They are claiming to be acting on behalf of Muslims in Islam and they are not.

CUOMO: You are saying, saying that you are Muslim is not enough. I hear that often from moderate Muslims in this country and around the world. And the task then becomes somewhat if this is then a battle of the soul for your faith, about what will define what is Islam, what do you need to do to put down this insurrection on your own faith?

AYLOUSH: Sure, let's not forget as we speak today, ISIS has killed -- 95 percent of the victims of ISIS have been Muslims themselves. And let's not forget at the forefront of fighting ISIS today are the brave Syrian people, who are fighting on both front, the barbaric regime of Assad and the barbarism of ISIS.

So, we should credit when credit is due. We actually have left the Syrian people, as they fight and battle with ISIS. And then we complain and say, what are Muslim people doing to root out the terrorism and extremism? Let's not forget that some of our own foreign policy as Americans, as the West, have fueled that extremism. When we support leaders in Egypt or other places, when we support dictatorship, oppressive regimes around the world that push people over to the edge and then they become extremists, then they become terrorists, we are partly responsible.

So, listen, terrorism is the global problem. Not a Muslim problem. And the solution has to be global. Everybody has a role in it.

CUOMO: What do you make of the criticism of President Obama that he won't say Islamist extreme terror?

AYLOUSH: I think he's on point because he understands we do not need to alienate our allies. The 1.6 billion for the most part are on our side as we fight these extremists, these terrorists. We -- once we start blaming their religion, our religion in this case for myself, then we're alienating them.

CUOMO: What if you're precise with it. Instead of saying Islamic, I know many -- it is a lost as a distinction, but it is a distinction with a deference to those who understand the theology. Not Islam extremism, if you don't like that. But Islamism, Islamist extreme terror or radicalization, that would be accurate, theoretically and theologically, right? AYLOUSH: No, it wouldn't be.

CUOMO: Why not?

AYLOUSH: Islamism is an adjective of Islam basically. Basically, we're linking it to Islam and Islam is not --

CUOMO: But that would be wrong because Islamism is the own aspect of the faith that is more extreme. That is dated in its way and it can have non extreme and extreme forms. And that is according to many theologians and experts, that is the category these bad guys deserve to be in.

AYLOUSH: I would still disagree for many reasons, because again, there is no way to separate. Once you use the word Islam or try that with Judaism. You will see. Try that.

I think most of us have become desensitized when it comes to Islam. We think we can separate. We cannot.

CUOMO: So, as soon as you say the word "Islam", you are coloring the whole.

AYLOUSH: Exactly. So, what we need to do is -- I mean, that's one of the reasons many have called, instead of calling ISIS, which claims to be the Islamic State, instead of calling it ISIS.

CUOMO: Calling it Daesh.

AYLOUSH: Call it Daesh. If they catch you in Syria, or Iraq, calling them Daesh, they will actually kill you, because they know you're preventing them from what they falsely claim.

CUOMO: But in truth, the problem with these guys is they will kill you for anything, which is one of the reasons we are all so scared.

This conversation is an important one to have.

AYLOUSH: Absolutely.

CUOMO: It needs to happen in many ways and different forums. Thank you for having it with us.

AYLOUSH: Thank you for having me.

CUOMO: I'm sorry it's under these circumstances. But it's a conversation to have.

AYLOUSH: Thank you for having me.

CUOMO: Appreciate it.

Alisyn, to you.