Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Rubio & Cruz Clash Over Immigration; Rare Access to Russia's Military Fighting ISIS; FBI: San Bernardino Terrorists Used Private Messages. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired December 17, 2015 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:02] EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: And, you know, he addressed some new information about the terrorist couple. He said they were private messaging to discuss their vow to carry out jihad. Now, Tashfeen Malik, the wife, also discussed her extremist views with other friends also in private messaging.

Now, those messages weren't posted publicly, so, FBI had no way to uncover them until they began investigating this terrorist attack -- Michaela.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Evan, thank you very much. Appreciate the reporting.

All right. Let's take a quick break.

Here's a proposition for you: Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, people focused on them on the debate. It seemed they were focusing on each other. Well, guess what the result is? Both of their poll numbers are going up and so are attacks on each other in terms of number and amplitude, past votes, immigration.

Who is going to win out in this situation? We'll tell you what's being said. You decide.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As far as Ted's record, I'm always puzzled by his attack on this issue. Ted, you support legalizing people who are in this country illegally.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He was fighting to grant amnesty and not to secure the border.

[06:35:01] I was fighting to secure the border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Same tie, but that's where it ends. Cruz, Rubio. Rubio, Cruz. A new and existential battle within the larger war for the nomination. The stakes, the strategery, let's discuss.

CNN political commentator and political anchor at Time Warner Cable News, Mr. Errol Louis, and CNN political analyst and presidential campaign correspondent for "The New York Times", Maggie Haberman.

Maggie, don't mind to the woman laughing at me and let me ask you this question.

(LAUGHTER)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Mostly of his poetry.

CUOMO: You're going to use it, strategery.

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's entering the mainstream right now.

CUOMO: It's no accident that these two looked at each other on the debate stage and each had the equal impression which is you need to go. What are the stakes for these two men? Why has this become a coupling? And what are the big issues?

HABERMAN: So, this is where many Republicans have thought the race was probably heading for several weeks now. You have on one hand, Marco Rubio basically representing the establishment's best hopes for reclaiming the nomination as you have seen Jeb Bush has not done as well. That's where people had pinned their hopes.

Now, Marco Rubio is where that is, especially after the last couple debates where you saw some major donors going his way. He is essentially an ideologue, except he is a national security hawk. He is seen as a bright, youthful face for the party.

You have Ted Cruz who has been very, very strong in his stump speech against undocumented immigrants, about -- he's been very, very strong in criticizing Marco Rubio on immigration reform in 2013. You saw that a lot in this debate.

You also saw them fight on national security. You saw Marco Rubio essentially describe Ted Cruz as Rand Paul-light, that he is trying to minimize the ability of the government to monitor potential terrorism attacks, and I think these are the two fault lines where you are seeing this fight for the party playing out, what was supposed to be a moment in the party where people are sick of war and people are sick of government intervention, it's turned out to be a national security election and that's what Marco Rubio is banking on.

Ted Cruz for the first time yesterday seemed to struggle on the issue of immigration. He has been very, very clear and focused and smooth in his responses. He was during the debate. In an interview last night, it was the first time that he had stammered. He had trouble getting through it. He introduced an amendment to what was immigration reform bill in 2013.

CAMEROTA: The "gang of eight" bill that he now criticizes.

HABERMAN: Yes. And he criticized it then, too, except what he said at that time was, I would like to see it pass and this amendment of mine could help see it pass. What the amendment did was it stripped the provision of a pathway to citizenship, but provided legal status for undocumented immigrants. That's seen to people who do not like seeing the number of undocumented immigrants who are here exist. That is the same thing.

And so, he had trouble defending this yesterday. It was again the first time Cruz, an expert debater, this has written about repeatedly, he is very polished. This is the first time he's getting real scrutiny. This is also the first time Marco Rubio is getting scrutiny.

CAMEROTA: Errol, the reason that he is struggling, that Ted Cruz is struggling to explain that, is because he flip-flopped. He supported a support to legalization to legality in 2013 and now he's trying to claim he didn't. And Rubio called him out at the debate. He said, you supported it. No. No, I didn't. He's changed the subject basically, but he did.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: There's an element of that. I think this also gets to the reason why prior to 2008 in the election of Barack Obama, we had not as a people elected somebody directly from the Senate to the White House since John Kennedy, because it's very, very hard. You've got all of this kind of strategery going on. You've got all of this, in the course of a legislative markup, you can put in poison pills, you can put in sort of amendments that are trying to sort of mitigate damage even if you're opposed.

CAMEROTA: That's what he's explaining he was doing. He now claims that this was a poison pill amendment meant to kill Marco Rubio's bill.

Let me play for you what he said in 2013. He had great enthusiasm for this bill. He begged his colleagues to pass it. It didn't sound like a poison pill. Listen to this moment from 2013.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRUZ: I don't want immigration reform to fail. I want immigration reform to pass. And so, I would urge people of good faith on both sides of the aisle if the objective is to pass common sense immigration reform that secures the borders, that improves legal immigration and that allows those who are here illegally to come in out of the shadows, then we should look for areas of bipartisan agreement and compromise to come together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Come in out of the shadows. That's what he was suggesting.

LOUIS: Well, the notion that represents a flip-flop saying come in out of the shadows --

CAMEROTA: And he said illegal.

LOUIS: -- all by itself, I mean, I think the politics has changed. I mean, I don't know if it's so much of a flip-flop as a matter of trying to sort of find whatever the most conservative position is and take the position at the time. I think he was where he was then.

[06:40:00] I think the conversation has shifted. Ted Cruz has perhaps shifted with it. I don't know that this is going to be where the debate really sort of ends up.

If you remember, the exchange we saw in the debate the other night was punctured by Chris Christie saying, I don't want to hear about this and nobody in the public wants to hear about this, what you marked up three or four years ago.

CUOMO: Right, and well-played by the governor. However, it remains that these two men want each other's bacon.

What do you think will determine who winds up being the more elevated candidate at the end of it all?

HABERMAN: Immigration has been a -- the immigration reform bill has been a problem for Marco Rubio for several years with conservatives, and Ted Cruz established himself.

Remember, Ted Cruz when he was in that hearing, they are both senators from states with emerging Hispanic electorates especially Texas. So Ted Cruz was being a Texas senator at that point. He's now running in a party where the base is very, very concerned about immigration.

This is a major issue. Ted Cruz established himself as someone that fought against President Obama. That's been the problem for Marco Rubio. That's why you saw Ted Cruz repeatedly describe this as the Chuck Schumer/Marco Rubio amnesty effort.

I think that Ted Cruz is a more established quantity for a lot of people within the grassroots particularly in Iowa. It remains the case that Ted Cruz has a clearer path especially in Iowa than you can see right now from Marco Rubio in an early state. And until that changes, you're going to have to give the edge to Ted Cruz.

CAMEROTA: Maggie, Errol, thanks so much for all of the context. Great to talk to you, guys.

LOUIS: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Let's go to Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Alisyn.

Russian air strikes are taking a toll on terrorists in Syria and CNN is granted access to Russian military personnel off the Turkey/Syria border. We have a live report from the frontlines of the fight ahead for you on NEW DAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:45:45] PEREIRA: This morning, Russian President Vladimir Putin saying he will not agree to outside forces deciding who will rule Syria without acknowledging the only way to resolve that country's civil war is with a political solution. This as Russia's military continues air strikes against ISIS targets in Syria.

Our senior international correspondent Matthew Chance is getting rare access to the Russian military. He is on a naval ship involved in that campaign right now off the Syria/Turkey border.

Matthew, incredible access you got.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Michaela. They say, well, they're saying he's a political solution. Actually, Russia is imposing its own military solution on the situation as well. We've been getting that rare access to that military operation over the course of the past couple days.

This morning, the Russian military brought us off the coast of Syria and we now stand on a missile cruiser, it's called Moskva, which means Moscow in Russia, and it's the flagship of the Black Sea fleet and an important vessel in this region because it's got very sophisticated air defenses onboard S-300 air defenses naval equivalent, which means they can police the skies and control the skies not just over Syria but various other parts of other countries as well. So, it's an extremely powerful vessel. You can see on the deck now a big gun behind us and a big cannon, 130 millimeters. There are missile launchers as well.

And so, you know, the Russians are asserting themselves extremely strongly in this region both on the sea and with the air strikes carrying out over the last several months.

CAMEROTA: Matthew, thank you for that update.

Back here at home, prosecutors and lawyers for Officer William Porter will be in court later this morning to discuss a new trial date for the Baltimore cop. Porter is free on bail after a hung jury could not reach a verdict. Porter is the first of six Baltimore police officers facing trial in the death of Freddie Gray. The mistrial triggering mostly peaceful protests in Baltimore.

CUOMO: The Justice Department and officials in Ferguson, Missouri, reportedly on the verge of a deal to force changes in the police department. "The New York Times" reports the deal requires new training for officers, improved record keeping and a federal monitor to oversee these changes, but the residents of Ferguson may not like it because the changes will be paid for by local tax increases.

PEREIRA: U.S. stock futures up, or at least pointing up this morning, after the Federal Reserve hiked interest rates for the first time in a decade. Fed Chair Janet Yellen says the economic recovery has come a long way though it's not complete, suggesting future rate hikes will be spread out. The Dow climbed more than 200 points on the news.

CAMEROTA: Well, a discovery that Paris terrorists used encrypted cell phone apps and the San Bernardino shooters used direct messaging is causing security officials to rethink their strategies to catch terrorists. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:52:24] CAMEROTA: Investigators discovering that some of the terrorists behind last month's attack in Paris used encrypted cell phone apps, this as FBI Director James Comey talked about the challenges in investigating them and the San Bernardino terrorists.

Let's bring in Samuel Rascoff. He's the faculty director at the Center of Law and Security at NYU Law, and former director of intelligence analysis for NYPD.

Samuel, great to see you again.

Let's talk about these two things. There's encryption that's stymieing investigators and then there's the use of direct messaging. I understand the latter better.

So, let's start there with direct messaging. Part of the reason that they missed the clues of the female San Bernardino terrorist is because she was direct messaging people on social media. Why can't investigators see that?

SAMUEL RASCOFF, FACULTY DIR., CENTER OF LAW AND SECURITY, NYU LAW SCHOOL: Well, investigators could see that if they had a valid predicate for taking a look. In the absence of that kind of predication a reason to seek that information, they don't know what they don't know.

CAMEROTA: Right. So, this is privacy versus national security argument. Some would say that given what happened in San Bernardino, it's time to begin looking. I mean, even without some sort of predicate. It's time to begin looking at people's direct messaging to figure out if they are saying things like jihadists, you know, impulses and wanting to plan an attack.

RASCOFF: Well, that's probably one bridge too far, especially with respect to U.S. citizens, to the extent, though, that we're talking about visa applicants, I would say, yes, there may be more ability there to go consider information, even information that's not public facing considering that we're talking about individuals who aren't Americans.

CAMEROTA: OK. So for visa applicants we do in other words -- our security officials do have the technology to take a look they're just choosing not to?

RASCOFF: Thus far they made a policy choice in some cases not to consider certain posting and certain communication exactly.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about what Evan Perez just reported. What was long suspected in Paris attackers that they were using encryption of some kind. What he's just reported, is that, yes, in fact, it has been confirmed that they used encrypted apps. Explain how that works.

RASCOFF: Well, that works the same way iPhone 6 works nowadays which is to say default setting for a lot of technology that we use in day-to-day lives today as opposed to two or three years ago is encrypted. That means that even when a judge issues a warrant to law enforcement to go ahead and consider information, technology companies are simply unable to deliver on that warrant.

CAMEROTA: Why?

RASCOFF: Why? Because in a post-Snowden world, a lot of these companies, Apple being a prime example, have sought to distance themselves from the law enforcement and intelligence apparatus to the state.

[06:55:07] And they are literally marketing iPhone 6 as anti- surveillance.

CAMEROTA: That's a problem in the new world of national security concerns. Can they change their tenor on that?

RASCOFF: They can change their tenor but they really won't do anything until Congress demands they change their tune and whereas guys like Jim Comey really want Congress to step in and demand a back door, the tech firms aren't going to be able to do it otherwise.

CAMEROTA: Let me play for you. James Comey plea that he needs help and here's why, there's what he said yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: The threat came from ISIL through social media which revolutionized the way all of us connect to each other and they made it revolutionized terrorism, because they sent their twin-prong message of come or kill out to the chaotic spider web, especially of Twitter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: "The chaotic spider web especially of Twitter", what does that mean?

RASCOFF: What that means is that ISIL, unlike al Qaeda in its original incarnation, which was on organization with bosses and subordinates, ISIL nowadays is more akin, especially globally, to a brand, where a message gets put out there and individuals who subscribe to that sort of message are volunteering for the cause.

CAMEROTA: That's why James Comey said they are crowdsourcing terrorism. He used that term. Meaning that they just -- they don't even have to have trained somebody. They can just through social media now put out here's what we think you should do and then people take that suggestion and run with it as we saw in San Bernardino.

RASCOFF: Exactly, and the law enforcement challenge accordingly is disproportionately larger than it ever was, because it's not about monitoring a discreet a number of individuals in Waziristan. It's about monitoring who across the globe might subscribe to a message that's been put out globally.

CAMEROTA: I mean, you're on the front lines of this because you deal in this world every day. What's the solution?

RASCOFF: The solution is some kind of big compromise. We've already begun to see over the last summer that Congress has put into place legislation to roll back some of the vacuuming up of American metadata, the very broad sweeping surveillance. That's part of an overall package. But I think the second piece of that according to Comey and this is good public policy, what we need to see on the second half of that equation is some kind of government authority to get into encrypted technology. That has to be part of the bargain.

CAMEROTA: I mean, it sounds like otherwise, our law enforcement has their hands tied is what he's saying.

RASCOFF: Exactly right. Otherwise, even possessed of a good warrant, law enforcement can't get the job done.

CAMEROTA: Samuel Rascoff, thanks so much for your expertise and being on NEW DAY.

RASCOFF: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: We're following a lot of news this morning, so let's get right to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CRUZ: Senator Rubio chose to stand with Barack Obama.

RUBIO: Everyone on that stage talks tough.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Last night I had Jeb come at me. You know, low energy.

JIMMY KIMMEL, COMEDIAN: You think Jeb Bush is scared of you or just scared in general?

TRUMP: He's having a hard time running.

(PROTESTERS CHANTING)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hung jury in Baltimore.

CUOMO: Protesters demanding to know why a jury failed to reach a verdict against the first of six officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ultimately, people from different perspectives have to come to the same conclusion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm terrified. Will we have five more mistrials?

PEREIRA: President Obama getting a pre-Christmas briefing from his counterterrorism team today.

COMEY: The most dangerous people to us that we're tracking disappear. We call this going dark challenge.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota, and Michaela Pereira.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to your NEW DAY.

The candidates getting back on the stump following Tuesday's debate. Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio trying to build on momentum they picked up in Vegas, but they've got plenty of ground to catch the man still in front.

CUOMO: You speak of Donald Trump.

CAMEROTA: I do.

CUOMO: And he was on Jimmy Kimmel and he was firing back at Jeb Bush calling him weak, low energy, despite a performance many called strong. We also heard something else from Trump that it may be time that even he tones it down.

Let's begin our coverage with CNN political reporter Sara Murray live in Washington.

Yes, Sara, Donald Trump dialing it back.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, can you even believe it?

You know, maybe he's getting more comfortable in his front runner status. But last night, we saw a Donald Trump who's calling to unite the Republican Party. If you think that stopped him from taking swipes at his Republican rivals, you better think again.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MURRAY (voice-over): A change in tone for Donald Trump.

On Jimmy Kimmel overnight, a bit of self-reflection.

TRUMP: I would like to see the Republican Party come together and I've been a little bit divisive in the sense that I've been hitting people pretty hard.

KIMMEL: A little bit, yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

MURRAY: The magnanimity stopped when it came to debate rival Jeb Bush.

KIMMEL: Do you think Jeb Bush is scared of you or just scared in general?

TRUMP: I think he's scared.

MURRAY: The front runner continuing to call Bush low energy and too nice to be tough.

KIMMEL: Do you think he wants to run for president?

TRUMP: No.

KIMMEL: No?

TRUMP: He was a happy warrior, but he's never been a happy warrior.