Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Sheriff: "Steps Being Taken" to End Armed Occupation; Interview with Senator Rand Paul; North Korea Claims Successful Test of Hydrogen Bomb; Donald Trump Questions Ted Cruz's U.S. Citizenship. Aired 8- 8:30a ET

Aired January 06, 2016 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: If it is true, if it is true the test represents a significant advancement if for rogue nation's military arsenal.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: The U.N. Security Council set to hold an emergency closed door meeting later this morning. So how will the international community respond? We've got the latest developments covered the way only CNN can. So let's begin with Paula Hancocks. She's live in Seoul, South Korea, for us. Paula?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Alisyn. Well, this is really a carbon copy of what we saw during the last nuclear test back in 2013. Early in the morning we heard there was seismic activity in the same area of the northeastern part of North Korea as these previous underground tests have been carried out. We then heard the speculation that it was manmade explosion and not a natural occurrence. And then of course that confirmation from North Korea that they had conducted a false nuclear test.

But as you say, the big crucial difference this time, they claim it was a hydrogen bomb, although many in South Korea are questioning whether or not that is the case.

Now, it is very close to the Chinese board where this happened. We see the extent and force of this seismic activity, we can see on camera footage from that area shaking, just showing how forceful it was. Now, as I say, this is number four. There was one back in 2013 also done by the new leader -- North Korean leader Kim Jong-un. There was one back in 2009 and 2006, both carried out by his father Kim Jong-il.

North Korea has managed to blame the United States for this test as it has done in the past. It says it was a self-defense mechanism and that as long as the U.S. didn't threaten the sovereignty of North Korea it would not use nuclear weapons but felt forced in carrying out this threat. This is a justification it's used before and one it is likely to use again in the future.

There was a picture of Kim Jong-un actually signing the order for this test to go ahead, a handwritten note as well which is apparently handwritten by him which says "For the victorious and glorious year of 2016 when the seventh convention of the workers party will be held. Make the world look up to our strong nuclear country and labor party by opening the year with exciting noise of the first hydrogen bomb." So clearly a very proud moment for Kim Jong-un. Michaela?

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: A curious way to celebrate it, however. All right, Paula, thank you so much.

Well, North Korea's apparent detonation of an H-bomb drawing worldwide condemnation, especially from the rogue nation's nearest neighbors. CNN's Will Ripley has been to North Korea five times in the last 18 months. He joins us now from Beijing. Will?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Michaela, visiting Pyongyang as recently as a few months ago, they talked very proudly about their nuclear program. As Paula was mentioning, this is one of the few bargaining chip that this is country has. After years of essentially being ignored and sanctioned by the international community, this could be an attempt to try to get the attention of the United States.

The supreme leader Kim Jong-un would like nothing more than to sit down with a representative from the U.S. administration. There hasn't been a high profile visit since Madeleine Albright back in 2000 towards the end of the Clinton administration. But whether this tactic will work, there is certainly a lot of criticism coming in from around the world.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg speaking out this morning saying, quote, "I condemn the continued development by North Korea of nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs and its inflammatory and threatening rhetoric. I call on North Korea to fully respect its international obligations and commitments."

And the list of countries condemning North Korea continues to grow. The United States, South Korean, Japan, China, France, the United Kingdom, Russia, and also organizations such as the International Atomic Energy Agency speaking out. Japan sent up two planes to test for radioactivity in the atmospheric after this test. Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe saying, quote, "North Korea's nuclear threat is a serious threat to our nation's security and absolutely cannot be tolerated. We strongly denounce it." U.S. ambassador to Japan Caroline Kennedy was meeting with Japanese officials to discuss this issue. Of course in the past North Korean missiles have flown right over Okinawa in southern Japan which is home to thousands of U.S. troops and their families, so this is of grave concern in this region and around the world. There will be in just a few hours a meeting of the U.N. Security Council, a closed door session for the world to figure out what their next move will be. Chris?

CUOMO: Will, as you well know what is said, a heavy second to what is done. We know you will follow up the reporting for us on that point. So we'll get back to Will when he has new information.

Let's bring in former New Mexico governor Bill Richardson. He was the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations and has traveled to North Korea several times. We also have Georgetown University professor Victor Cha. He is the Korean chair for the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Gentlemen, thank you for being with us. Governor, let me start with you. The first question is, do we believe North Korea? Is this credible? Or is it AT LEAST consistent with a ramping up of their hydrogen capabilities?

[08:05:09] BILL RICHARDSON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, I think it is consistent with a ramping up of their technological nuclear capability. I don't believe it is a hydrogen bomb. It was only about six kilotons. It is usually 20. But at the same time they are advancing, Chris. Their sending the world a message, we're not going to have our nuclear program as a bargaining chip.

They're also saying to the world, hey, we're still around. Maybe you have got Iran and Saudi Arabia and the Middle East exploding. But the tinderbox of northeast Asia is still there.

And so I think what we need to do with the United States, Russia, China, the six party countries, is figure out what to do. The U.N. Security Council is meeting. I don't know if more sanctions are going to work. They are sanctioned extensively. So I think some new diplomatic policy options need to be put on the table. And my view is that a deal like Iran, similar like we had before in the Bush administration, Victor would know, in the Clinton administration, in exchange for food, fuel, lifting of some sanctions, they curb their nuclear weapons. I see that as the only way out, and China is key, and I don't think China wants to help us or do much.

CUOMO: And the new leader of China has been more hands off with North Korea. That may have loosened the leverage that they had. Professor, this is the fourth nuclear by North Korea test since 2006, the third during the Obama administration. The relevance in terms of North Korea's attitudes towards the U.S. sanctions?

VICTOR CHA, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR: I think Bill has a point in that they are looking for attention. But when we were doing negotiations with North Korea during the Bush administration and when Bill was involved with them on his own in track two, the North Koreans were in a negotiating mode. I think it is fair to say that under this new leadership in North Korea they are not in a negotiation mode.

I think the Obama administration and others, the South Koreans, the Chinese, have tried in various ways to reach out to North Korea on terms that are acceptable to most of the members of the six party talks, but the North Koreans have not been picking up the phone. They have not been answering. And instead their response has been to continue to try to build toward this second generation of fusion weapons.

And so that I think is very concerning not just for the United States at the end of the Obama administration, but it's very concerning for whoever comes into office next time because they are the ones who are going or the confronted with a major, major problem that has gone beyond the scope of what we've known when we were doing negotiations during the Bush administration or when Bill was involved with them in the Clinton administration.

CUOMO: Governor, there is another wrinkle on this that I heard about really for the first time this morning from a morning from a writer for "Forbes" who has been dealing with this issue for a long time. I want to know if it is news to you as well. The speculation that there are Iranian scientists on location in North Korea during this testing, have you ever heard that? And if it is, where is the urgency around what is an obvious circumvention of the deal with Iran?

RICHARDSON: Well, look, the North Koreans, they have worked with the bad guys, with the Syrians, the Libyans, Pakistanis. It wouldn't surprise me. And obviously is this is an Iranian effort it has to stop and it is a violation. But I don't have that evidence.

Victor Cha and I went to Korea during the Bush administration and we got back some remains of American soldiers. I think we have to approach North Korea not just straight diplomatic on arms issues but other side issues like remains from our veterans from the North Korean war, like humanitarian missions, like new approaches that involve a new kind of diplomacy that is not the traditional six party talks.

CUOMO: So let's say that -- you guys understand the state of play. There is a frustration about what will work. There is a question about whether or not there is motivation to deal diplomatically. But what about this extra wrinkle, professor? If it is true, and it should be somewhat easy to find out, that Iranian scientists are on the ground in North Korea during this testing, doesn't that add an entirely additional dimension to the threat and the political reality?

CHA: I think it absolutely does. I don't know about the reports. the veracity, but it wouldn't surprise me. In the past there have been rumors of not just Iranians but also Pakistani scientists that have been milling about in North Korea. The cooperation between North Korea and Pakistan and Iran on missiles is very clear and well known. The mainstay of both Iranian and Pakistan missile program are all North Korean missiles.

[08:10:02] And the fact that both Pakistan and Iran are nuclear states and probably have quite advanced technology and that they might be sharing with the North Koreans is not something beyond the realm of speculation at all. This also has implications for the Obama administration's deal with Iran as well, as well as our relationship with Pakistan. So this is an issue this morning that is about North Korea's nuclear program, but the ripple effects of this are much, much broader.

CUOMO: And to the IAEA as well, the inspecting agency, if it can't get what's right in North Korea and how are they going to be trusted to do it in Iran.

The political play, governor, coming from the right is that this is more proof of President Obama's weakness, that the reason that three of these tests have happened during his administration is because there is no respect for the word of the United States from people like North Korea. Do you see it that way?

RICHARDSON: No I don't see it that way. Victor outlined the basic part of the problem, and that is North Korea doesn't want to talk to anybody. They are not in an engagement mode. You had that interview with Dennis Rodman. That is the only guy the North Koreans have seen from the United States. And so, you know, this is a very difficult regime. We know very

little about this new leader. That doesn't mean we put our head in the sand and don't try to figure ways of how to engage him. Again, I keep going back to China. China has leverage over North Korea, but I don't think China in the past has wanted to help us.

But this detonation of this nuclear weapon was very near the Chinese border. And so, you know, it is going to affect the Chinese security and interests. So maybe this is the time when China steps up and serves as an important mediator or as a deterrent to North Korea's nuclear ambitions.

But we clearly need a new diplomacy. President Bush tried it. President Clinton's tried it. Obama has tried it. But let's try something that might work because there is a lot going on. They may have 10 nuclear weapons. We've got over 30,000 American troops. We have a treaty with South Korea. This is an important strategic part of the world.

CUOMO: Professor Cha, thank you very much. Governor Richardson, as always, I can't believe you brought up that Rodman interview. I'd almost forgotten it. Thank you very much. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: All right, well, Texas Senator Ted Cruz rising in the polls and now Trump questioning Cruz's citizenship. Trump says Cruz's Canadian birthplace could damage the Republican Party's chances of winning the White House. CNN's Athena Jones is live in Washington for us. Fill us in, Athena.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn. It seems pretty clear at this point that Trump views Cruz as more and more of a threat these days. Now that Cruz is leading in the polls in Iowa, Trump is doing everything he can to raise doubts about him, raising questions about his faith, and now this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't know what it all means. I know that other people are talking about it.

JONES: Donald Trump deflecting last night in New Hampshire. The frontrunner saying Republican rival Ted Cruz's natural born citizenship is a question that only other people are asking.

TRUMP: People are worried that if he weren't born in this country, which he wasn't, he was born in Canada, and he actually had a Canadian passport along with a U.S. passport until just recently, I mean, like within the last couple of years. So I don't know what it all means.

JONES: Trump said in an earlier interview with "The Washington Post" that Cruz being born in Canada could be very precarious for the GOP, asking Republican voters to think twice, saying "Do we want a candidate who could be tied up in court for two years? That could be a big problem."

Trump hinting Democrats could take Cruz to court because the constitution requires the president to be a natural born citizen. The junior senator was granted citizenship by birth since his mother was an American citizen. But what constitutes natural born for a president has never been tested in court.

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think I'm going to let my response stick with that tweet.

JONES: Cruz responded with a metaphorical tweet.

(MUSIC)

JONES: Linking to Fonzie from "Happy Days" jumping a shark.

(MUSIC)

CRUZ: The best way to respond to this kind of attack is to laugh it on and to move on to the issues that matter.

JONES: Meanwhile, Trump's campaign rallies continue to be packed with controversy. A supporter shouting "President Obama is a Muslim" last night.

TRUMP: What did you say? I didn't hear it. OK. I didn't say it.

JONES: The billionaire pretending to be outraged.

TRUMP: Oh, I'm supposed to reprimand the man who said that. Who is the man that said that? I have to reprimand you. How dare you? OK. I'm admonishing you for the press.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JONES: So a pretty sarcastic response to that voter from Trump that. Now, that reference by Cruz to the Fonz jumping the shark is Cruz's way of suggesting that perhaps an increasingly desperate Trump is resorting to gimmicks to get attention like "Happy Days" days in its waning years.

[08:15:00] And one more thing about the Cruz citizenship questions, though. It is important to remind folks that Trump has been on both sides of this issue. Four months ago, he tweeted, "I hear it was checked out by every attorney and every which way. And I understand Ted is in fine shape."

Now, he's singing a different tune -- Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: A very different tune. A tune apparently from happy days.

All right. Athena, thank you so much for that.

To that situation in Oregon, a local sheriff is saying plans are in the works to end the occupation of a federal compound that is now interesting its fifth day. However, he's refusing to say exactly what those plans are.

Paul Vercammen is live in Burns, Oregon, with the latest for us -- Paul.

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, here is the latest on the hands off standoff behind me. Some of the demonstrators moved some heavy equipment from inside the compound to help block the road. And also standing vigil or guard, if you want, we've got one of the demonstrators, he has what he calls a cowboy rifle in his lap.

Now, one of the reasons for him coming out here. They say is they had heard rumors that the FBI was going to issue arrest warrants. The FBI has not confirmed this.

But here is what protesters say they are concerned about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMMON BUNDY, MEMBER OF ARMED MILITIA: If something happens know it that it is because of the actions of the FBI and because of their intimidation factors and because of their commitment to protect and defend other agencies rather than human people, rather than Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERCAMMEN: And the sheriff of this county had said to "The Oregonian" that things are being done and these are not things, as in law enforcement actions, for the public to see. Also, a spokesman for the demonstrators, if you will, Ammon Bundy, had put on social media that they are just like Rosa Parks. They are standing up against bad laws.

In the meantime, we haven't seen a single law enforcement out here at this compound since this began.

Back to you now.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Paul, we know you'll be monitoring that for us all morning. Thank you.

Meanwhile, Tonya Couch, the so called affluenza mom one step closer to returning to Texas this morning. Couch waived extradition before a California judge Tuesday. She's accused of helping her teenage son Ethan flee the country last month. He was spared jail time for killing four people in a drunk driving crash in 2013. Ethan Couch remains held in a Mexican jail.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right you want something that will actually not depress you? Here you go. Amazing video that show what is makes those who hunt the sea among the bravest men and women.

Did you see what just happen? Waters off Australia. Competitive fisherman Connor Cogan, they're reeling in a 200-pound bill fish, that marlin, and look what happens.

This is what happens. He was trying to gaffe him. The guy on the right.

Nobody hurt. Did get slimes, as they say, but look how close that guy on the left got to taken that pincher right -- PEREIRA: He was smart to like get low, it kind skips off his back.

CUOMO: Watch this. Ha ya, woo he! He gave him a little tail lob on the way out though.

PEREIRA: Is that the sound a marlin makes? Or --

CUOMO: That's the sound you make when you see something that your weight (ph) hopping the boat.

CAMEROTA: Have you had marlin slimed?

CUOMO: I have not been so lucky. Of course I would have grabbed the beast by the bill and brought it into the boat.

PEREIRA: And that what I was going to warn you about, because you knew that was coming.

(LAUGHTER)

CUOMO: What if North Korea's hydrogen bomb test claim is true? That is the naturally question after a segment like that. What should the U.S. do? What should other nations do? Will they do anything?

We're going to ask this man, Republican presidential contender, Senator Rand Paul, live.

Good to see you, Senator.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:21:26] CAMEROTA: We're following breaking news for you this morning. North Korea claims they've tested a hydrogen bomb. If true, that represents a significant upgrade in the rogue nation's military arsenal. Let's talk about this and more with Republican presidential candidate, Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky.

Senator, great to see you.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thanks for having me.

CAMEROTA: Thanks for coming in.

If you were president today in the White House, what would you do about North Korea?

PAUL: There's not a lot of easy solutions. I would say that there are some parallels to the Iran agreement. Many of us said that's the danger of the Iran agreement is that once they get nuclear weapons, it's hard to know what to do and how you will respond.

We had negotiations, you know, with North Korea a while back and we had sanctions on them and then they secretly or surreptitiously began developing nuclear weapons back then. The one thing we have in our favor, though, is that socialism is an abysmal failure at providing food or making much of anything. North Korea has been dishonest and deceitful about things in the past. They've launched ballistic weapons test and missed islands completely.

And if you want to look another the difference between capitalism and socialism, there is a satellite picture of the two Koreas. And the South Korea is just burgeoning economy of capitalism and democracy and doing so great, it's all lit up on the satellite picture. You look at North Korea, there is like one light bulb on in Pyongyang.

So, I think there are some things to be concerned with. We need to put it in context of the fact that they have a failed economic system.

CAMEROTA: Well, yes, the people are certainly suffering, but Kim Jong-un is not suffering. So, I mean, it sounds like what you are saying is do nothing.

PAUL: No, I think that's incorrect.

CAMEROTA: Socialism and communism collapses on its own. But they're against them.-

PAUL: That's incorrect. I'm not saying do nothing. I think we have played sanctions before. We certainly have some sanctions. We can increase those.

I think also, China can have some influence as well. China is a big player in the region. North Korea in many ways is dependent or co- dependent with China. And I've advocated for a long time that this is why we should talk to the other super powers because they have a great deal of influence with North Korea.

This is why I object to some of the Republican side, like Fiorina and Rubio and others who say, we're not going to talk to Putin. While Putin has pluses and minuses, Putin has a great deal of influence in Syria, the same way China has a great deal of influence in North Korea.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, people would say that's not working. The sanctions haven't worked. They have been advancing and China has not been exerting its pressure.

PAUL: All right. So, what are you proposing?

CAMEROTA: What are you proposing?

PAUL: What I'm saying is there are no easy solutions. I mean, you want me to magically wave a wand and all of sudden, their nuclear weapons are gone.

What I'm pointing out is that it is so important that we understand what went wrong with the negotiations and maybe there was too much leeway in the negotiations. Some of the same people who negotiated the North Korea agreement are the same people who have recently negotiated the Iran agreement, and this is one reason I objected to the Iran agreement because I don't want to get to a situation where we are with North Korea where your options are somewhat limited.

When we negotiated with other superpowers like Russia or China, there was a rationality to the negotiations over limiting nuclear weapons and having mutually reductions in nuclear weapons. There doesn't appear to be the same rationality in North Korea. So, it is more worrisome. But I think it's inappropriate or mischaracterizing my position to say, we're just going to do nothing. Obviously, we will do everything we can to prevent them from developing and using hydrogen bomb or any nuclear weapons.

CAMEROTA: Let's move on to what happened here. Domestically, yesterday, President Obama announcing new executive actions on gun control. What don't you support about trying to expand background checks for online sellers or gun show sellers?

PAUL: You know, I'm a big believer in the Constitution and a big believer we should follow the intent and the letter of the law. The Constitution says that Congress passes laws.

[08:25:01] In fact one of the philosophers that our founding fathers looked to is Montesquieu. And Montesquieu said that when the executive, the president, begins to legislate, that a form of tyranny will ensue.

So, just because the president can't get his way in a republic, in a representative democracy like we have you don't just get to do what you want when you are president. He should come to Congress and he should ask for legislation. He doesn't get to bypass Congress. So I'll do everything I can do defund this executive order because it's unconstitutional and goes against everything that we're about as America.

CAMEROTA: Right. So, you have an issue with the process. What about the policy? What about the fact that a majority of Americans do want expanded background checks to close the gun show loophole? Would you do that?

PAUL: Let's not discount the Constitution. The Constitution is an important part of the fabric of what our country is.

CAMEROTA: Of course. But, I mean, my question is the substance of the policy.

PAUL: Let's get to the background checks. We have everything that the president is doing in California, in order to find out whether they are private transactions. So, in San Bernardino, the couple there that were the terrorists got guns through a private transaction, even though it was illegal. So, we don't have a way of policing private transactions unless you were to register all guns.

So, the main objection for people like us who are pro-Second Amendment is not necessarily background checks, but if you want background checks on all private backgrounds and sales, that you would have to have a registry of all guns. That's the only way you can track guns, to see whether or not there's a private transaction. We do object to a national registry of guns. That's been our main objection this.

The other thing to understand is that if you look at crimes committed from private transaction, most estimates I think from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, from the government, are less than 1 percent of crimes are coming from this.

So I don't think it is worth throwing the Constitution out the window just to say, well, we might be able to slow down or stop 1 percent. The other thing with gun control is to look and say, are people who are going to die in attack really going to be concerned with a fine or be concerned with breaking the law? I don't think it really stops criminals but it does deter law-abiding people from being able to own and purchase guns.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about the campaign. The next debate is on the 14th. It's the FOX Business debate. They say that it would be the top six national candidates, according to the polling. Are you going to be on the main stage?

PAUL: We certainly believe so. Your last poll that you did about a week ago at CNN had me in sixth place. CBS had a poll last week, they had me in fifth but only one point behind fourth place. There's a new "Reuters" poll out today that has tied for six.

In every one of the recent polls, we would qualify. And leading up to the last debate, in every one of those using this new criteria, we would have qualified. So, we fully expect to be in the debate.

CAMEROTA: If you're not, if you qualify for the under tier, the under card debate, will you participate?

PAUL: You know, with three weeks to go in a campaign, I don't think that much power should be given to any media organization or to the RNC. We've raised $30 million. I have over 500 leaders in New Hampshire on my team. We have 1,000 leaders associated with us in Iowa. We have chairman in all the states. We've raised enormous amount of money. We have 400 college campuses.

I don't think it's fear -- I don't think it is fair for media or the parties to pre-select out who can and cannot compete. Many times in our history, we've had people with polling numbers exactly where mine are who've won Iowa.

So, I think it's all possible until we create a perception that only certain people get to compete. And I think it's too much power to grant any organization.

CAMEROTA: Senator Rand Paul, thank you.

PAUL: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Nice to have you here in the studio.

Also, a programming note: be sure to tune in tomorrow night. President Obama is going to join Anderson Cooper for an exclusive live town hall events on "Guns in America". The president will discuss his executive action as we have been on guns and he will take questions from the studio audience. That's tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m., right here on CNN.

Michaela? PEREIRA: So, Alisyn, Donald Trump raising questions about Ted Cruz's citizenship. Why is he going after him now? And is this tactic going to work? We're going to take a look at it, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)