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1 Dead, 8 Arrested in Oregon Armed Occupation; Donald Trump to Skip Next GOP Debate. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired January 27, 2016 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: The group's spokesman was killed. Several of the demonstrators are in police custody, including the group's leader, Ammon Bundy.

[07:00:08] We have CNN justice reporter Evan Perez, joining us live with breaking developments. What do we know?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, authorities say one man was killed, another was injured in the dramatic shootout between members of an Oregon protest group and the FBI and state police.

The confrontation took place during a traffic stop on a highway from -- away from the federal wildlife refuge in Burns, Oregon. The FBI says it arrested eight men, including Ammon Bundy, who's the leader of the group that took over the wildlife refuge nearly a month ago.

The group said that they were protesting the federal government's handling of a dispute with ranchers in the area. The man killed was LaVoy Finicum, an outspoken member of the group who had vowed not to be taken alive.

The Bundys issued a statement saying, quote, "LaVoy Finicum was shot and murdered in cold blood in Burns, Oregon, today by the FBI and state law enforcement. He had his hands up and was shot three times."

The FBI said that during the traffic stop, everyone cooperated with police except for Finicum and Bundy's brother Ryan, who was injured in the confrontation -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Evan, thanks so much.

Now to the political story that has a lot of people talking this morning. Donald Trump telling FOX News, "I don't need you. I don't need your debate. I do not need your moderator."

So is this madness or political magnificence? Sunlen Serfaty in Des Moines, Iowa, with this story. Sunlen, unbelievable.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, it certainly is a bombshell that escalated very quickly. The Trump campaign is holding firm, saying they are not bluffing. They say Donald Trump will not be showing up at tomorrow night's debate, and he is now planning to hold his own event instead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SERFATY (voice-over): With five days left to drum up support ahead of the Iowa caucuses and just a day shy of the next GOP FOX debate...

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I said bye-bye.

SERFATY: Donald Trump going rogue, dumping FOX News.

TRUMP: Probably I won't be doing the debate. I'm going to have something else in Iowa. We'll do something where we raise money for the veterans and the wounded warriors.

SERFATY: Trump claiming unfair treatment from FOX News moderator Megyn Kelly.

TRUMP: Megyn Kelly is really biased against me. She knows that. I know that. Everybody knows that. Do you really think she can be fair at a debate?

SERFATY: FOX News standing by Kelly while Trump walks.

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Trump is not used to not controlling things. But the truth is he doesn't get to control the media.

SERFATY: So how will his power play fare with Iowans just before the first votes are cast? The RNC responding to Trump's move, telling CNN, quote, "Obviously, we would love all of the candidates to participate, but each campaign ultimately makes their own decision what's in their best interest."

But Ted Cruz, Trump's main opposition in the GOP race, says not so fast.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Apparently, Megyn Kelly is really, really scary. Donald is a fragile soul.

SERFATY: The Texas senator issuing this challenge to the front- runner.

CRUZ: If he's unwilling to stand on the debate stage with the other candidates, then I would like to invite Donald right now to engage in a one-on-one debate with me any time between now and the Iowa caucuses.

SERFATY: Trump putting the final nail in the coffin Tuesday night after FOX News released a tongue-in-cheek statement, poking fun at Trump's threats to back out, saying in part, quote, "We learned from a secret back channel that the ayatollah and Putin both intend to treat Donald Trump unfairly when they meet with him if he becomes president."

TRUMP: They can't toy with me like they toy with everybody else. So let them have their debate. And let's see how they do with the ratings.

(END VIDEOTAPE) SERFATY: And there's a certain irony in here for Donald Trump. In 2011, he was scheduled to moderate a Republican debate on Newsmax. Many of the candidates then decided not to participate. Check out Donald Trump's response then to those candidates.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We're not seeing a lot of courage here, are we?

KELLY: Not so far.

TRUMP: Not lots of courage...

KELLY: Are you still going to do it?

TRUMP: It's supposed to be brave. I was disappointed in Mitt, because I really thought that he would go out and had courage.

KELLY: Do you really think that you're a better moderator than I am?

TRUMP: No. I could never beat you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: A little extra irony there, because that was Megyn Kelly, now at the center of this controversy with Donald Trump. That debate, Chris, later went on to be canceled.

CUOMO: All right, Sunlen. Thank you very much.

We have the perfect guest for this topic. A personal friend of Donald Trump. He knows politics so well, the former New York City mayor. And he knows how to be tough. Rudy Giuliani is with us this morning. He knows the race.

Back in 2008, you had your own experience with this. You understand the dynamics. You know all the players involved. Can you believe this is happening?

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Well, no. But I can't believe about half of what's happening.

CUOMO: Bad move for Donald Trump on the face of it?

GIULIANI: Gosh, you know, I thought he made some bad moves before that turned out to be good ones. My advice to Donald would be to debate. I've never turned down a debate. I think -- not only that, I think the last couple he won.

CUOMO: He said he won all of them. And every poll shows he won every one of them.

GIULIANI: And some of the, as he went along, more convincingly than others. There were a lot of -- there were a lot of Republicans who were on the bubble right now, ready to support him. I mean, big-time Republicans. Last night I had dinner with several African-Americans. Some aren't

going to support him, but they like him. One of them, Norman Seabrook, is the head of the corrections union. He's going to endorse him. I mean, this guy has got crossover appeal that most Republicans don't have.

CUOMO: Would this help him or hurt him with those kinds of people?

GIULIANI: I don't want to see any...

CUOMO: On the bubble?

GIULIANI: I don't want to see any Republicans hurting themselves. I think it would be better for him to debate. Obviously, he's saying something to them that they like. So keep saying it to them.

And the message that he has is a good one. So Cruz is going to go after him on choice and all this other stuff. He has a very simple answer. These are all positions he had when he was a businessman. He didn't give much thought to it. He wasn't running for office. Now he's running for office. And he has to develop his political philosophy, and this is my political philosophy, and I'm sticking with it.

CUOMO: You didn't do that. You know, when you were a prosecutor, you said, well, I saw -- "I thought one group of things when I was a prosecutor. Now I'm a politician." You are who you are. You are what you are inside. Right? That's what those positions are about.

GIULIANI: But you're a business -- look, I represent a lot of businesses. You've got to play both sides of the aisle. You've got to have -- you've got to have some Republicans. You have to have some Democrats. You have to contribute to some Republicans, Democrats. That's the point he's trying to make: "I was in business then. I wasn't in politics." So far it's working.

CUOMO: That's true.

GIULIANI: The proof is in the polls.

CUOMO: Therefore, I don't think he will take such a beating on these things from Cruz, who's making let's say I would, within public life, most of my life.

CUOMO: There's two metaphors that come to life. I is you've got, you know, Abraham Lincoln, the biggest name Republican after his famous speech. A House divided cannot stand, obviously. In reference there.

There's one metaphor about what's going on within the GOP, how it is seen between FOX News being the establishment and Trump. How do you see that?

GIULIANI: That, I don't see. That's the audience that's going to have a lot to do with the primary. Even more than the general election. You're in a primary right now. Talk to the people that are going to vote in the primary. So my advice to friend Donald would be, surprise them. Show up. And

from his point of view, beat the heck out of them.

CUOMO: But doesn't that look like losing?

GIULIANI: No, no. Maybe you can say something like, "I can take advice."

CUOMO: Wow. Would be like another New York values moment for him, rising above what was done.

GIULIANI: Got another question about it, right? One of the questions is, is he flexible enough? Can he take advice? Take advice.

CUOMO: Can he be the bigger person?

GIULIANI: Yes. Some of the best moments I had with public approval was when I apologized. "I'm sorry. I grew up."

CUOMO: Often strength is vulnerability. Right? It's easy to be tough. That doesn't always mean that you're being strong.

How about on the FOX News side, though, the ayatollah, Putin tweet? We joke. Funny about that press -- but is that the right move for them?

GIULIANI: I think it's a little too far. But, look, that's the attack the other candidates are going to make against them. He goes into a general election, that's the attack the Democrat IS going to make.

CUOMO: But is that their job...

GIULIANI: No.

CUOMO: ... to make the case that a candidate should?

GIULIANI: Another close personal friend is Roger Ailes.

CUOMO: Mine as well.

GIULIANI: And he, if Roger is one thing, what is he? Loyal. He is sticking up for Megyn Kelly. I don't think he agrees with Donald. He can even agree with Donald. He would stick up for Megyn Kelly.

CUOMO: I agree with you on the loyalty point. No question about it. And we both experienced that personally.

But here's my counter. I don't know that it's about Megyn Kelly. I don't know that it's about Megyn Kelly for Donald Trump. And I don't know that it's about Megyn Kelly for Roger Ailes. And in fact, he -- according to Lewandowski, the campaign manager for Trump, just said as much on TV, that it's not about Megyn Kelly. It's how FOX has dealing. And for Roger Ailes, you could argue that FOX News does symbolize something within the GOP.

GIULIANI: Right.

CUOMO: Is he trying to protect that? And Megyn Kelly is going to be fine. But do you think that that's really the battle line?

GIULIANI: It could be. And, you know, look, they have treated Donald fairly. They haven't gone overboard. But what I read -- look, I was one of his closest personal friends. They criticized me. And they supported me, back and forth, back and forth. Maybe Donald is expecting too much from FOX.

CUOMO: Does he win just by this conversation? Nobody is talking about Cruz. Nobody is talking about his conservative values.

GIULIANI: This may be what you and I have missed there for the last four or five months. From the beginning, it's when is Donald going to fall apart? When is Donald going to fall apart?

But we're talking about Donald. We're not talking about Cruz. We're not talking about Rubio. We're not talking about Bush. They're out of the game. This is Roger. It's Ailes. It's Kelly. And where are the other candidates?

CUOMO: Full disclosure, you know, you've always been a very good mentor to me. When you're walking out after one of the first appearances we did about this, you gave me a pat on the back. You said good analysis. Doesn't apply to Trump. Remember who you're talking about.

And it's really proven true. He does not have to play by the normal rules. Here we are again. If Rudy Giuliani had said, "I don't like the way fill in the blank, even FOX News is treating me. I'm not going to the debate," even I would have had to beat you with a big stick.

GIULIANI: I'd be dead. I'd have been dead. I'd have dropped 10 points. Boom, like that.

They hold him to a different standard. This whole business background, that entertainment background, the reality TV background. The fact that they see him as a guy who's tough and stands up. And they just interpreted it differently than they might interpret it. But me or Cruz or Trump.

CUOMO: If he were more traditional conservative, do you think FOX News would be doing the same thing?

GIULIANI: Yes. Yes. I think they would because of the -- sort of what they regard as a slap in the face to them, to their show, to their reporter. And he does go after her pretty hard.

CUOMO: Just sent out a tweet where he used a word which I don't -- he used the "bimbo" word. I don't think that that's an ordinary mild pejorative. "I refuse to call Megyn Kelly a bimbo." He loves this tactic, by the way. It's like, "I could call Cuomo an idiot, but I won't." You know, he gets it both ways. "Because that would be not politically correct. Instead I'll only call her a lightweight reporter."

You would like to say, if you knew I was going to do something like this, you'd say don't do that. That's beneath you.

GIULIANI: I would say don't do it.

CUOMO: And that word, that is an especially insulting word.

GIULIANI: A very bad word. And there's nobody in the world that views her as a lightweight before. You may agree with it; you may disagree with it. She's a very smart woman, a law school graduate. She's not a lightweight reporter.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: So I would say, Donald, you're wrong on both counts, you know.

CUOMO: Why is he doing it, though? He does nothing for no reason. What do you think he thinks that tweet gets him?

GIULIANI: I think that tweet gets him attention. It shows him as a guy that can fight back.

CUOMO: Calling -- calling a professional woman that people respect a bimbo? That's the kind of attention you want?

GIULIANI: He's done it before and look where he is. He's used that word before.

CUOMO: And you see that there's no red line? There's no line.

GIULIANI: I haven't seen it. There could be. It may come at some point if you keep it up.

CUOMO: And you don't seem to have -- you don't believe he has a righteous position?

GIULIANI: I like Donald best when of course, I would, when he defended New York.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: I thought he -- I thought -- I actually thought he got to a poise of eloquence and presidential stature when he did that.

CUOMO: But he had the high road.

GIULIANI: I'd like to see him do that here. Like you see him say, you know something, I listened to a lot of people. I'm going to be in that debate.

CUOMO: But you don't see him on the high road right now.

GIULIANI: Not with that.

CUOMO: Not that tweet? Not saying, "I'm not going to debate"? Not the high road.

GIULIANI: I can't see how that helps him. But again, same thing as I said to him when he first walked out. Looks like there are different rules here. Let's see if they're going to continue.

CUOMO: Michael Bloomberg, you know him very well. Do you think there's any real shot that he gets in the race?

GIULIANI: Only one. Only one real shot.

CUOMO: You hold up two fingers. What are you trying to do?

GIULIANI: Because it really is a two-part thing. There have got to be two candidates: Saunders on their side.

CUOMO: Bernie Sanders.

GIULIANI: And Cruz on our side. I think if it's Trump or Christie, or Rubio or Bush against Hillary...

CUOMO: But don't friends of the former mayor say Trump would be a catalyst for him? That he sees Trump getting the nomination as a reason to get out?

GIULIANI: I see a Trump, Hillary or any of the others I mentioned. Christie...

CUOMO: You don't think Bloomberg can take Trump?

GIULIANI: No. I don't think an independent can take enough votes away from a Republican or a Democrat. Keep it out of the House of Representatives.

CUOMO: Self-funder versus self-funder, New Yorker versus New Yorker, billionaire versus billionaire.

GIULIANI: Mike Bloomberg's got to get to a majority of electoral votes. No votes in the South. No votes in the Midwest on his gun position. His gun position is going to kill him. Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania.

CUOMO: He could just change it.

GIULIANI: Not Mike. That's not Mike. You know Mike. I know Mike.

CUOMO: He's a businessman. He became a politician.

GIULIANI: A different kind of businessman.

Pennsylvania, they take the first -- the first Monday in December off to go hunting. You're anti-NRA in Pennsylvania? Forget Pennsylvania.

He's not going to take some of the deep Democratic states away from the Democrats. He may take a few states. So now what do you have? You have an election in the House of Representatives.

CUOMO: All right.

GIULIANI: What is the House of Representatives? Republican.

CUOMO: Right. Good analysis on that. So let's see. We've got a lot of time left. We have, like, the whole day before this happens. Do you think he winds up at the debate or no?

GIULIANI: Knowing Donald and how strong he is, no. Do I think he should be there? Yes. Would it be the surprise of the day, and then tomorrow he could dominate again? Yes. So I give it a 60/30 he doesn't show up. Ten undecided.

CUOMO: Rudy Giuliani says 60-40...

GIULIANI: Sixty-30, 10 undecided.

CUOMO: That sounds perfect for the current climate. But true strength would be going according to what you do...

[07:15:03] GIULIANI: I think it would. I think it would make great news.

CUOMO: It worked today.

GIULIANI: We'll be talking about that tomorrow.

CUOMO: Please come back. Remember, we are just five days from the first votes being cast in this race. That's why this all matters so much.

CNN is going to have complete coverage of the Iowa caucuses. We'll be doing this for you all day next Monday. We'll be doing this all day for you to get you set up for the big vote. We're going to take NEW DAY on the road to Des Moines for the big event, as well -- John.

BERMAN: All right, Christ. Thanks so much. Great interview there.

This morning a new CNN/ORC poll finds that more than half of Americans are pessimistic about the future of the United States. That is the highest number in two years.

As for the president himself, his approval rating holding pretty steady at just under 50 percent. The poll also looked at how Americans feel about Iran. A majority favor a diplomatic approach to preventing Iran from developing nuclear weapons. But the public's view not as strong on lifting the sanctions. Only 43 percent support.

CAMEROTA: Well, the president of the Cleveland Patrolman's Union vowing an appeal after six officers were fired and six others suspended for their roles in a deadly police chase and shooting.

The actions stem from the barrage of 137 bullets. Officers fired at a single vehicle in a 2012 car chase that killed the two unarmed occupants. The police union calls the rulings politically motivated and notes that the officers have spent the past three years doing their jobs by protecting the city. BERMAN: An Indiana principal remembered as a hero this morning after

pushing students out of the way of an oncoming bus. Authorities say Susan Jordan was struck and killed Tuesday after a bus jumped a curb during dismissal. Two students were also injured, but they're expected to be OK. There was an appreciation video posted online last year. Jordan was called inspirational, loving and compassionate by her students and staff.

CAMEROTA: Wow.

All right. What if they had a Republican debate, and the front-runner didn't show up? We're about to find out. We'll look at the potential risk and reward for Donald Trump. CNN's John King joins us with his analysis. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:20:59] CAMEROTA: Donald Trump's announcement that he's skipping tomorrow's GOP debate has the political world jabbering. How will his decision affect what happens in Iowa five days from now?

CNN chief national correspondent and anchor of "Inside Politics," John King, joins us here in studio. John, great to have you here.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Look, he's not going. He's not going.

KING: I don't see any indication, based on what his -- first what he said and then what his campaign manager said.

CAMEROTA: Right.

KING: Doesn't look that way.

CAMEROTA: OK.

KING: Although, we have lived six months of what we think today is gravity, reality and the rules. Tomorrow, it seems to be the opposite. But based on how strong they were last night, it's pretty inconceivable.

CAMEROTA: OK. And it's interesting for all of us in the news media to talk about it. But does this affect something in Iowa five days from now?

KING: It's a great question. Because when Donald Trump campaigned, I was at a rally the other day in Paola, Iowa. He half insulted -- he thinks it's funny. It's his Manhattan way. It's his New York way. He tells the people of Iowa they're stupid all the time, because they were supporting Ted Cruz. For a while, Ted Cruz was ahead in the poll. But it's working.

He has momentum. And so this is a really fascinating decision. Most of the political pros, who I would remind you have been wrong about Trump from the beginning, are saying, "Why would he do this?" He has the trajectory going in. His last debate wasn't bad, even though he did come under attack a little bit. It was probably his strongest debate performance. Why would you do anything to mess with what's working at the moment? Right? Why would you do that five days before Iowa?

And, you know, you open it up to so Jeb Bush can say, "I'm right. He's unhinged." Ted Cruz can say, Donald, where are you? We're one and one. We're at the top of the pack. Why won't you take my question? And you can say, are you afraid of Megyn Kelly? What about Putin? What about the Chinese?

However, every time Trump has done something contrary, almost every time, he has benefited from it. So some also see this as kind of the old Dean Smith four corners. If things are going well for him right now, don't ruin it in a debate.

CUOMO: The coach of the North Carolina Tarheels.

CAMEROTA: Thank you. I thought it was a sports analogy. Thank you.

CUOMO: Who is this dean of Smith?

BERMAN: Look, I'm curious what these other candidates are going to do on that stage, because they will take a moment. They will all bash Donald Trump for not being there. They can't make this about Donald Trump for a full two hours.

KING: But it does give them an opportunity in the sense that they get more time. Now again, if you go back and look at the past debates, there have been times when Trump has dominated the time. There are other times he has kind of stepped back and not been such a big debate presence.

The debates are not the reason he's the frontrunner. He said the last debate was probably his strongest. Overall, his debate grades, you have to say are eh. Not horrible, but not good.

But so -- but Ted Cruz, Ted Cruz needs to convince Iowa evangelicals to stop voting for Donald Trump. He started some tough ads right now. He wanted that confrontation. Ted Cruz wanted to stand next to Donald Trump and say, "What do you mean when you said before that you were really pro-choice? Very pro-choice?"

Ted Cruz wanted that, because he needs it to get even. Rubio has an opening here, because some people think he's sort of surging. But believe it when you see it in the news.

CUOMO: We just had on Rudy Giuliani. Correct? Not only he's a close personal friend of Donald Trump and Roger Ailes, the head of FOX News. But he knows how to play hard politics, New York style, whatever you want to put on it. He says the strong thing to do here is to go to the debate. Why?

Because it's not about you. You represent a message. You represent people. You have a duty to them. That's what politics is. But that's the risk in this. I think he wins at this tactic for tactic. The guy's a genius in terms of how to position himself. But he's got a lot of people who now he's carrying water for. He represents them.

Does he risk that if he doesn't show up for his own people and represent them at that debate?

KING: His people, his core people seem very, very loyal. Remember, this is a guy who said just on Saturday, "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot someone, and I wouldn't lose any votes." If you have that mindset, and I think he really believes that, that people are so loyal that they're not going anywhere.

If you can have that mindset, you can walk away from the debate five days before the Iowa caucuses. We'll see if it's right.

Remember, he's never done this before. But every single -- he has bent if not broken every single rule of politics. Up to this point, see what happens here. To that point, look, the strength of the Trump campaign is strength. He says, "I'm tough. I'm a leader. They're losers. They're low energy."

So you could make the case walking away from a debate because of a war of words, a war or wills with Megyn Kelly and Roger Ailes. It's not strained.

Others will try to make that case. But Donald Trump might just -- you know, I don't -- it's hard to explain. It's just hard to -- you get lost in your own words.

CUOMO: I think that's going to be a test, by the way. The first part of that answer.

[07:25:18] CAMEROTA: Let's -- let's talk about the other side of the aisle, shall we? A new Quinnipiac poll out this morning that shows what's going on in Iowa with Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. Bernie Sanders now has 49 percent. Hillary Clinton, 45 percent. What do you think, John, is going to happen in Iowa here?

KING: This is a fascinating race. When you're out there, you can see 2008 all over again, to the degree that younger voters go to college campuses. This is the first caucuses in two -- in the last two cycles, college was not in session on caucus day. College is in session this day. Bernie Sanders has a lot of supporters on campus. It's a big deal.

Hillary Clinton gets traditional Democrats. She gets the older folk. She gets women. She gets people who say that they're longtime Democrats. Bernie Sanders, just like Obama, gets younger voters, independents and people who say, "I'm excited by this campaign. I'm going to play for the first time." We'll see if Sanders can turn them out.

The one lesson the Clinton team learned, that she's much better organized than she was in 2008. She has a lot of the old Obama team helping her in Iowa. So this is a classic test, as it was in 2008, of organization and machine versus passion and energy. There's no question she understands the momentum right now.

CUOMO: It will be interesting to see if he got a bump from the town hall or did she. Because there was a lot of positive energy.

KING: I'll say something else, and I don't know that it will matter. But that was probably the most exposure Governor O'Malley has had to the electorate in a long time. And you say does it matter? Yes, it does. If he gets a little bit more, it comes from somebody. Just like on the Republican side, whatever Huckabee, Santorum and Ben Carson get, most of that comes from Cruz. So that the other candidates pay attention to the candidates who are third, fourth, fifth and beyond. Because what they get is going to affect the top rung.

BERMAN: You spent some time, actually, looking at Huckabee and Santorum and those others. Are those guys still running for real?

KING: Yes. Yes. Both of them have pretty aggressive schedules, Santorum more so than Governor Huckabee. Remember, both have won the Iowa caucuses before. Both have their support in the traditional way to win in Iowa. Evangelical and home schoolers, conservative Christians in the small rural counties. That is Ted Cruz's space. He needs those voters.

Trump's getting some of the evangelicals, and it infuriates the Cruz campaign, because they think his record is not worthy of those voters. But anything Huckabee, Santorum and Carson get, at least two-thirds of those votes come out of Cruz. They will affect the top of the belt.

CAMEROTA: John, don't be distracted by Chris's effort to distract you from what is the real topic here, and that is two words: his jacket.

Now the jacket that he's wearing right now, the jacket that he wore for the Democratic forum in Iowa. We have a poll of, well, voters and viewers, about to fit Christie's jacket that night. Most people felt it was teensy-weensie. Thirty-eight percent, strangely, felt it was just right.

Can you look at this? This is the rear view, which I'm not sure is the best.

CUOMO: Easy. Easy.

KING: Wow.

CUOMO: Tough crowd.

CAMEROTA: Yes. So basically, this jacket has its own Twitter feed.

KING: I think the proof -- the proof, though, that some of these critics are wrong is that Martin O'Malley took his jacket off, because he knew it could not compare.

CUOMO: Strong, strong point.

BERMAN: You're talking about the jacket. If you're talking about the jacket he wins. Right?

CUOMO: I feel like a complete loser, though. I paid retail for that. CAMEROTA: In the Daily News, they said that it was jacket by Pee-Wee

Herman.

KING: Got an editor, though. Have to tell you that.

CUOMO: All good. That's true. The Trump rules.

BERMAN: They're talking about you. It's all good.

Thanks so much. So will Donald Trump accept this new offer from Ted Cruz with a one-on-one debate? How will Cruz now go after Trump without him being next door on the debate stage? We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)