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New Day

Oregon Standoff Ends with One Death and Mass Arrests; Donald Trump Announces He Will Not Attend FOX News Debate in Iowa; Interview with Heidi Cruz. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 27, 2016 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: -- occupying that federal wildlife refuge in Oregon. The group's spokesman killed, several others are now in police custody including the group's leader Ammon Bundy. CNN's Sara Sidner is live in Princeton, Oregon, with all of the breaking details. Tell us how this went down Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, a dramatic twist in the story here. One person dead. The FBI and the Oregon state police saying that there was shots fired. They won't say whether there was a gun battle or not or whether it was just on their end, but one person ended up being killed. That was LaVoy Finicum. He was a rancher from Arizona. He has been here for quite some time.

This all happened during a traffic stop according to the Oregon state police and the FBI. There were two vehicles. They stopped both those vehicles and went forward to try to arrest those who are there. They say these are the men who have been taking over the Malheur Wildlife Refuge headquarters and have been here for some weeks, and when they went to do that they say there were a couple of people who decided to resist, and one of those was shot and killed.

However we are getting word now from the Bundy ranch. And this is the father of Mr. Ammon and Ryan Bundy who have both been arrested saying that they believe LaVoy Finicum was actually murdered in cold blood, that he was not any threat to the police. We have not heard from the police yet what exactly happened, all the details there, but certainly this is a dramatic turn to the story. And still the Malheur Wildlife Refuge still has folks on it, and you can see just behind me there is a tractor that is blocking the way. The FBI is not here but the protesters are.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Sara Sidner for us in Oregon at the scene right now following developments for us. Sara, we'll get back to you as soon as there's more information.

Meanwhile, the big giant political news this morning, Donald Trump says he is not going to tomorrow's Republican debate in Iowa. This is something that doesn't happen in politics, and again, Donald Trump doesn't usually happen in politics. This is all about a growing feud with FOX News. CNN's Sunlen Serfaty is live in Des Moines. Good morning, Sunlen.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John. Well, this is certainly a bombshell that escalated very quickly. The Trump campaign still holding firm. They say they're not backing down. They're not bluffing over this. They say Donald Trump will not be there tomorrow night up on that debate stage and that he's now planning to host his own event instead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SERFATY: With five days left to drum up support ahead of the Iowa caucuses and just a day shy of the next GOP FOX debate.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I say bye-bye.

SERFATY: Donald Trump going rogue, dumping FOX News.

TRUMP: Probably I won't be doing the debate. I'm going to have to something else in Iowa. We'll do something where we raise money for the veterans and the Wounded Warriors.

SERFATY: Trump claiming unfair treatment from FOX News moderator Megyn Kelly.

TRUMP: Megyn Kelly is really biased against me. She knows that. I know that. Everybody knows that. Do you really think she can be fair at a debate?

SERFATY: FOX News standing by Kelly while Trump walks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trump is not used to not controlling things. But the truth is he doesn't get to control the media.

SERFATY: So how will his power play fair with Iowans just before the first votes are cast? The RNC responding to Trump's move, telling CNN, quote, "Obviously we would love all of the candidates to participate, but each campaign ultimately makes their own decision what is their best interest." But Ted Cruz, Trump's main opposition in the GOP race, says not so fast.

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Apparently Megyn Kelly is really, really scary. Donald is a fragile soul.

SERFATY: The Texas senator issuing this challenge to the frontrunner.

CRUZ: If he's unwilling to stand on the debate stage with other candidates, then I would like to invite Donald right now to engage in a one on one debate with me now and any time between now and the Iowa caucuses.

SERFATY: Trump putting the final nail in the coffin Tuesday night after FOX News released a tongue-in-cheek statement, poking fun at Trump's threats to back out, saying in part, quote, "We learned from a secret back channel that the Ayatollah and Putin both intend to treat Trump unfairly when they meet with him if he becomes president."

TRUMP: They can't toy with me like they toy with everybody else. So let them have their debate and let's see how they do with the ratings.

(END VIDEOTAPE) CAMEROTA: We have an irony alert for you now. Back in 2001 Donald Trump himself was scheduled to moderate a Republican debate for News Max. But when several of the candidates declined to participate in his debate, the billionaire Trump scolded those candidates while talking to none other than FOX News host Megyn Kelly. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Let's touch on this debate that's coming up that you're going to moderate for News Max, with News Max. So far only Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum have agreed.

[08:05:00] TRUMP: We're not seeing a lot of courage here, are we?

KELLY: Not so far.

TRUMP: Not lots of courage. They're supposed to be brave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So Trump ended up bowing out of moderating that debate in 2011.

Joining us now, Michael Smerconish. He is a CNN political commentator and host of CNN's "SMERCONISH," and David Chalian, CNN's political director. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here to find our way through what's going on this morning. Michael, let me start with you. What do you think of Donald Trump bowing out of this debate because he says he doesn't like Megyn Kelly and her questions? Does this hurt or more likely help Donald Trump?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST: I think it probably helps him. It is funny, I made a note a moment ago because I heard John Berman say this is something that doesn't happen in politics. And I said to myself, how many times in the last six months have we all been saying that? In the case of Donald Trump today I think, Alisyn, he believes he's winning in Iowa, and he wants to freeze frame where the race stands rights now. He's a numbers cruncher, so he's looked at the data and he has said to himself, whatever it is that I do on Thursday night will overpower whatever it is Ted Cruz will do in the what, ten minutes, eleven minutes that he will get on that debate stage. And so I think it's a pure, unadulterated calculus on his part. And when he was dissed by FOX in that sophomoric statement, he pounced on the opportunity. And his supporters will stay with him. So I think probably it's probably a net gain for Trump.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Chalian, I have spent much of my time in the last few days listening to you and benefiting from all that you know about what usually happens and what it means in presidential elections. So tell me, when you look at this move, is there any analogy to it that you have ever seen and how did it work out?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I don't know that there is a real good analogy, Chris. Donald Trump is a unique character in presidential politics, and this is a unique move this close to the caucuses. I know there has been some talk comparing to Ronald Reagan's moment back in 1980 when he sort of took control of a debate and, you know, scolded the "National Telegraph" editor, saying I paid for this microphone. We'll do it my way, because Reagan sort of organized that debate. But that was a very different moment than this. That was him arguing to sort of include many people so he wasn't in a one on one fight with George H. W. Bush at the time.

Chris, Donald Trump here is making a play to let everyone know that what he's been doing for the last six months, which is dominating the pace of this race, he doesn't plan to stop doing that. And that is exactly what he's doing this week. He's going to dominate the pace and state of play heading into those final days into the caucuses.

BERMAN: There is really limited real state. Today is Wednesday. There's Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, not even five full days, Michael, of political real estate to make your case. By the way, Ronald Reagan skipped the debate in Iowa before he bought the microphone in New Hampshire. Some people thought it hurt Ronald Reagan there, but there was much more time. It wasn't this compressed schedule and there wasn't this media frenzy like there is today, Michael. I do not know how if you are one of these other candidates, certainly other candidates besides Ted Cruz, how you get in the discussion right now with Donald Trump doing what he's doing.

SMERCONISH: That is why I think it is a net gain for Trump. And John, to your point, it guaranteed that last night, today, tomorrow, and whatever happens Thursday, Friday for sure, what will we be talking about? The impact of what Trump has just done. And it won't be a substantive conversation. I thought that that presser last night was amazing, and I watched it all on CNN, by the way, doing a calculus of how much it would that have cost him if he had to pay for it. There were some good questions that were asked. How about the question that was posed to him which said you maintain that you are pro-life. What should be the punishment for a woman who nevertheless has an abortion? And he waved that off. So the substance isn't getting discussed. Instead it is all about process.

CAMEROTA: David, Ted Cruz is trying to seize on this opportunity. Let me play what he said in Iowa yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRUZ: We are effectively tied in the state of Iowa. If he's unwilling to stand on the debate stage with the other candidates, then I would like to invite Donald right now to engage in a one-on-one debate with me any time between now and the Iowa caucuses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Donald Trump hasn't put out a statement as to whether or not he's going to take him up on that invitation. However, can Ted Cruz make some hay out of this with voters?

CHALIAN: I don't know. Ted Cruz is going to be in a tough position if Donald Trump is not on that debate stage because he will become the punching bag. With Donald Trump aside, you will have a lot of the other contenders really start going after Ted Cruz in a way that we haven't seen fully explored yet. So I'm sure Ted Cruz would prefer the one-on-one conversation with Donald Trump than sort of the six on one conversation that may happen tomorrow night on the debate state without Donald Trump there, Alisyn.

[08:10:03] CUOMO: It should be noted Alisyn was interviewing one of the Cruz camp and offered the invitation to come on here and do it, and all of a sudden there was a packed schedule. So there is gamesmanship going on on both sides.

Michael, the broader discussion about what this represents reminds me, the most famous Republican ever, Abraham Lincoln, gave his "House Divided" speech, biblical reference, obviously. Is that what we're seeing now here with Trump versus FOX News? Is this the metaphor of this cleaving of the GOP?

SMERCONISH: I think it says a lot about what's going on within the leadership of the Republican Party. And I'm not referring to old style, old school leadership. I mean the media leadership, because, you have heard me say before, Chris, I think that the GOP today is commanded with men with microphones, some women as well. It's FOX News, it's the a.m. brand of talk radio. So I find very interesting that the presumptive GOP frontrunner is now at odds with the primary oracle, FOX News, of the party. I'm curious to see, does Roger Ailes leave an empty podium for Trump tomorrow night. That will be an interesting camera shot if he does.

BERMAN: I think, we're under the impression at least, that they can't do that. That is part of the rules going into the debate that's something they can't do, but of course maybe FOX will go ahead and break the rules.

David, I forget what was I going to say. I got lost in the podium talk.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: Roger Ailes knows how to put on a performance, obviously. So it will be fascinating. Does the first question deal with Donald Trump? Do they ignore Donald Trump? Who do they do about this?

CUOMO: I think that, look, David, give me a head on this. My sense is you are going talk about him but he's not there so going to get good bang for the buck. You are going to try and use it as a moment to talk about yourself, but you may not get the audience. And then you got to worry about what you're competing with in terms of Donald Trump and what he's doing. Your take?

CHALIAN: I don't think any of the FOX moderators are going to feel compelled that if one of the other candidates goes after Trump, I don't think they are going to defend Trump.

SMERCONISH: I think you might be right.

CHALIAN: They're going to give him a fair shot.

I will say to add on Michael's point about not only did the abortion conversation yesterday -- I was at that event in Marshalltown -- not take place, and that benefits Trump as well. He said I just don't want to talk about it. But when he got on stage after that news conference last night and held his event in that gymnasium, he didn't really want to talk about his announced decision to not participate. When he was asked on stage in front of all of these no doubt FOX loving fans that are part of the Trump base, he simply just, oh, I made a little announcement earlier. And he moved right on. He didn't want to sort of hammer it home that he was skipping the debate last night. I thought that was an interesting moment for him.

BERMAN: He does choose his moments. I now remember what I was going ask before the whole Donald Trump thing fried my synapses.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: The wild card here is Iowa, the ego of Iowa and ego of the Iowan voters. Do they feel somehow jilted in this? And I think a lot of what happens over next 48 hours, how each side plays it, you know, will determine the outcome there, Michael. Do you think the people in Iowa are just going to be ticked off that Donald Trump is thumbing them somehow?

SMERCONISH: I don't know what the event looks like that he is going to do for apple pie and for Chevrolet and for Wounded Warriors. But I am sure it is going to be staged in Iowa so as to dilute, John, exactly what you are saying, because that is the risk for him.

CAMEROTA: All right, guys, David Chalian, Michael Smerconish, great to get your insight. The next 24 hours shall be interesting, as always. We're just five days from the first votes being cast in the race. CNN will have coverage of the Iowa caucuses of course all day next Monday. We're taking NEW DAY on the road to Des Moines for that big event.

CUOMO: All right, FBI investigators thwart an alleged terror plot targeting a Masonic temple in Milwaukee. This is going on right now. They have a suspect, this man, 23-year-old Samy Mohamed Hamzeh. He is in custody. Officials say he was caught in an FBI sting and he allegedly told undercover agents he wanted to commit an act of domestic terrorism and was planning a mass shooting at the Masonic center.

CAMEROTA: President Obama calling for speedy research to stop the spread of the mosquito borne Zika virus in the U.S. as new cases are reported in southern California and Arkansas. The infection, which typically has no symptoms, appears to be linked to a recent spike of serious birth defect in Brazil.

BERMAN: All right, my friend Chris Cuomo making it on "Late Night" with Stephen Colbert for asking the tough questions, this moment with presidential hopeful Martin O'Malley, so funny it made today's "Late Night" laugh. Check it out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: As you know there is a 15 percent rule in a lot of these caucuses. So if you don't have 15 percent of the caucuses in that room, those men and women have to go to a different candidate. So if you don't have that and your followers now have to go to somewhere else to people who support you, what is your suggestion to them?

[08:15:08] STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, THE LATE SHOW: I think that question is way out of line. Chris Cuomo, why not just ask Martin O'Malley after you die can I have your ten speed bike?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: What? If you only question though for Martin O'Malley. It really is. It's an important question.

CUOMO: Look, you know, I thought about this afterwards because Colbert was not unique here, he's just uniquely genius and funny. I get that is a hard question for Martin O'Malley. And here is why we asked it.

This is about leadership. This is about what you think is best for the people supporting you. He's (inaudible) had a great line out of this by the way. I think the best moment for the governor by consensus is, saying to his supporters, stay strong. Stand strong

But there is going to be a moment where someone is going to win. And those who don't win have to make a decision about what they want people who support them to do. So, that's where the question came from. He maybe at that moment a little bit sooner than the two other people in the race.

CAMEROTA: And what did Martin O'Malley think about your jacket?

CUOMO: I feel that he was so intimidated by the -- that he had to take his off.

BERMAN: He felt bad to you.

CUOMO: (Inaudible) jacket you may have known.

BERMAN: He was trying to deflect focus. What can I do for Chris Cuomo? He needs my help.

CAMEROTA: Can I (inaudible) an extra speed in there.

CUOMO: Maybe. He did give me five bucks at the end of it, he was like, here get yourself a new jacket

CAMEROTA: Wow. Oh well, I understand.

CUOMO: Up next, an exclusive interview - the give us really good insight, look at the Ted Cruz campaign. CNN's Dana Bash talks exclusively with his wife, Heidi, the driving force behind the scenes.

When we come back, take a listen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [08:20:23] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Not sure of you have heard. Donald Trump is not going to the Fox Republican Debate tomorrow night. So now, what does Ted do? Ted Cruz. Well, his wife is standing up for her husband in a CNN exclusive Heidi Cruz talks about their successes individually and as a couple. She also opens up about the worth issues during behind the scenes for her husband. A lot of work.

CNN's chief political correspondent Dana Bash joins us now from Washington with a really big interview. Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi John. Well, Heidi Cruz actually spent the last 10 months of her husband's presidential campaign working hard for him behind the scenes. She (inaudible) own experience on the presidential campaign and her expertise in the world of finance to help build Ted Cruz's campaign infrastructure.

But now she's taking on a more traditional role for a political spouse, trying to humanize her husband.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Ted Cruz could be campaigning like Bill Clinton did once upon a time. Two for the price of one because your resume is pretty impressive. You have a master's degree, a business degree from Harvard. You are an executive at Goldman Sachs.

So what does your success say about Ted Cruz?

HEIDI CRUZ, WIFE OF SENATOR TED CRUZ: You know, Ted and I are a partnership. And it has been the hallmark of our marriage really since day one from the moment we met. We have complementary qualities and one of the things that hit me very early on in dating Ted was one of the incredible family he has.

And the women in Ted's family are strong and I think Ted is very comfortable around strong independent thinking women.

BASH: (Inaudible) sector, how integral you have been to your husband's campaign. You behind the scenes. Dial for dollar, fundraise big time for him. You're out on the stump talking passionately why you think he should be president. What do you think your most important job is in this campaign?

CRUZ: In his campaign no doubt my most important job is to help him win. I'm a person who likes to get things done. And I'm used to working long hours during the week. And so when I took a full time leave of absence from Goldman Sachs, I need to be fully booked.

But I wanted to be behind the scenes. We used 2015 to raise over $50 million. Remember back when Ted launched the campaign on March 23, the New York Times that this was the campaign that won't (ph) be able to raise any money.

We have millions of dollars on cash on him.

BASH: Can I just ask you about that? CRUZ: Yeah.

BASH: Because a big part of the reason he's been able to raise tens of millions of dollars, you, his wife, dialing for dollars.

CRUZ: I'm active and I want to get things done. And so what we need to do early on to raise the money to ensure we could go to distance. And so I'm very comfortable making the ask.

BASH: So what's the ask? I'm a donor. You call me. You're calling and saying I want X number of dollars and here is why.

CRUZ: So probably many of you viewers have actually heard me make it. But I always tell them who I am. And I introduce myself as Ted's wife. That's not something I've done in my professional career so that was a switch for me to pick up the phone and say hi, I'm Heidi Cruz, Ted's wife. I've always had my own identity and -- but that's something that I'm happy to do because I know how talented Ted is and what I know what he can do for this country. And if I can be -- if I can give something to this country, I am so happy to do it.

BASH: Do you have any idea how much money you personally have raised.

CRUZ: I don't know exactly how much money I raised but I did make 600 calls the first quarter.

BASH: 600 calls.

CRUZ: But there are so many more people who have made so more calls for us. I just really have to use this opportunity to have absolutely al those but most of them are not married to the candidate.

Well even more so I should be doing even more, right?

BASH: OK. So let's talk about when you first met him. You were working on the George W. Bush campaign in 2000 in Texas and so has he. And I've heard you say that it was love at first sight?

CRUZ: It was love at first sight. I remember me introduced to Ted and looking at him and thinking, of course, you always think, you know, a first thought what is your sense of them, how are they reacting to you? And Ted just seemed to be interesting. He was a good look guy. He greeted me with a smile. We started working together. And I found Ted incredibly compelling because he had this very unique combination of being the smartest person I'd ever met.

On substance, on explaining fundamentals, on articulating things, on writing them out, getting it done. But he also was the first guy to say hey let's take a break. Go to a movie. Let's have some fun. And it's very rare that you find someone who doesn't take himself too seriously. He has a great sense of humor. He's really fund to be around.

BASH: I read that on your first date Ted Cruz asked you what is your ten year plan? What is your 20-year plan? Well, that sounds like a turn on, how did you resist him. [08:25:03] CRUZ: Well, that's not -- that's only a small part of Ted is the planner that he is.

(CROSSTALK)

CRUZ: So is it true that that happened.

(CROSSTALK)

CRUZ: Unfortunately, I am more of a planner than he is mush to his chagrin these days.

BASH: OK.

CRUZ: Ted is goal-oriented. Ted wants to use is like we all live in this earth for a limited period of time. And Ted is going to make sure that he use it to fullest.

And so he maps out what you are going to do.

BASH: Were you taken a back when he asked you or no?

CRUZ: No. I'm probably a little like that myself, unfortunately. So I was interested that he asked the question. Not many people engage in the question.

BASH: That's true.

CRUZ: but it wasn't necessarily professional. It was personal. He wanted me to start with the birth of my grandmother where our family had been from and what countries may they originally come from. He wanted to know their personalities.

BASH: One last question. I read that one of the things that Ted Cruz likes to do that people might not know about him is sing show tunes. Broadway tunes. Is that true?

CRUZ: Well, yes.

BASH: And he calls you on the phone and sings them?

CRUZ: Yes, he does. Yes, he does.

BASH: Can you give me...

CRUZ: In the middle of the campaign.

BASH: In the middle of the campaign.

CRUZ: And he often calls say, you know, to sing the song I just call to say I love you in the middle of sometimes stressful moments.

BASH: What he'd go to when it comes to Broadway?

CRUZ: He loves Phantom of the Opera. He loves (inaudible).

BASH: Those are not easy to sing, by the way.

CRUZ: They're kind of traditionalist.

BASH: Is he a good singer?

CRUZ: He chose the right profession.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Wow, Heidi Cruz going negative on her husband's singing ability. Dana, you know, from covering the Senate, the one of the issues with Ted Cruz is this likability thing. It's not hard to find a senator to say not such a nice thing about Ted Cruz.

Now in the stump, Donald Trump says, he's nasty. Nobody likes Ted Cruz. How does Heidi respond to that?

BASH: Well, you know, it's interesting, she tried to counter the narrative he's not likable by telling me nice husband things. He packed her suitcase a few days ago. Met her with flowers on his one day off from the trial and went with her to her favorite restaurant at 11:00 at night.

So certainly telling stories, anecdotes that would endear people to him. But this is an important but, Heidi Cruz say her and no way want her husband to change the thing that really irks his Republican colleagues in the Senate. He's take no no prisoner, no compromise style. She told me that's what she likes about Ted Cruz. And t hat those who don't like him, members of Congress she said are 11 percent approval and the very people grassroots Republicans are fed up with.

So she's kind of got a turn of phrase and very comfortable weaving in the personal and the political as you saw.

BERMAN: Got them this far five days before Iowa.

BASH: It is.

BERMAN: Dana Bash thanks so much.

BASH: Thanks John.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, John, it is shaping up to be a split screen moment unlike any other in this campaign. The battle between Donald Trump and Fox News. The Republican frontrunner boycotting the next GOP debate. Trump tweeting up a storm this morning. We'll bring you the latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:00:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: -- occupying>