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Three Oregon Wildlife Refuge Occupants Arrested; Justice Dept. Reaches Agreement With Ferguson; Widow Of Illinois Officer Indicted For Theft; O'Reilly Fails To Convince Trump To Rejoin Debate; Trump's Love-Hate Relationship With Media; Clinton Calls For Debate, Sanders Is Reluctant; American Spent 29 Days In Iranian Solitary Confinement. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired January 28, 2016 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:31:16] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: There's news breaking overnight. Three militants occupying that Oregon refuge arrested after turning themselves into the FBI. The group's leader, Ammon Bundy, urging the remaining protesters at the refuge to go home. Bundy was arrested Tuesday during a traffic stop. The group's spokesman was shot and killed by authorities during that same incident.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A proposed settlement between the justice department and the city of Ferguson, Missouri, calls for changes to police training and procedures including body cameras for every officer on the beat. The agreement stems from a report that found racially biased policing in Ferguson in the wake of the Michael Brown shooting in 2014. This agreement still must be approved by Ferguson city council.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: The widow of that disgraced Illinois police lieutenant who killed himself last year is now facing charges herself. She's accused of helping her husband steal money donated to his charity. It was an elaborate scheme which ended with the officer's suicide.

CNN's justice correspondent, Pamela Brown, is live with more from the CNN center. Pamela, what have you learned?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well Alisyn, this is a story that continues to take twists and turns. Now we're learning Melodie Gliniewicz, who many rember as the grieving widow of Lieutenant Joe Gliniewicz, who investigators believe staged his own death, has now been indicted by a grand jury in Chicago for stealing charitable funds and using them for her own personal benefit. Authorities allege she schemed with her now deceased husband to steal from the youth group that they ran, the explorers -- this is a group of teens they were training to become law enforcement officers -- and Melodie allegedly used that donated money to pay for a trip for herself to Hawaii. Payments to businesses such as Starbucks, Dunkin' Donuts, Fox Lake Theatre, and more than 400 restaurants.

Now, this was all discovered during the course of her husband's death investigation, where investigators noticed inconsistencies in the couple's bank records. They also discovered these deleted text messages between the couple, allegedly discussing using Explorer (ph) post money for their own personal benefit. and a statement from Melodie's attorney that says, Melodie has suffered greatly over the past few months and continues to move her family forward after the emotionally traumatizing events of September 1, 2015. That is when her husband died. Considering Melodie's cooperation with law enforcement, she is devastated by the decision to bring charges against her. Her bond was set at $50,000. And we should mention that our special on the secret life of G.I. Joe will air this Friday at 10:00 pm Eastern time. Chris --

CUOMO: All right, Pamela. Thank you very much. Donald Trump standing by his decision to skip tonight's Republican debate, so far. Despite Fox News host Bill O'Reilly repeatedly asking the candidate to reconsider on a show last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS HOST: I don't think not showing up at the debate tomorrow night is good for America. You have, in this debate format, the upper hand. Will you just consider -- I want you to consider, all right? Think about it. Just want you to consider it. You owe me milkshakes. I'll take them off the ledger if you consider it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: He was very strong in his suggestion last night, O'Reilly, that he wanted to do this. Tough spot for Bill to be in, being with Fox News, one of the opponents in this situation. So let's discuss what this dynamic is about and how it's going to come out for both sides.

CNN's senior media and politics reporter Dylan Byers is here and former managing editor of "People" magazine, Larry Hackett. Dylan, thank you very much for being out in the cold. I'll give you the nod to go first. Let's refresh memories here about, last night, Trump also stated what this is about with him on a personal level, why he feels this is the right thing for him. Here's the sound.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:35:04] DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't like being taken advantage of. In this case, I was being taken advantage of by Fox. I don't like that. Now, when I'm representing the country, if I win, if I'm representing the country as president, I won't let our country -- because it's a personality trait -- I'm not going to let our country be taken advantage of. So it is a personality trait but I don't think it's really a bad personality trait.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Dylan, do you think this plays as him showing how he'll be strong for the country, or does this play about how he has a hard time not making it about him? DYLAN BYERS, CNN SENIOR MEDIA AND POLITICS REPORTER: Well, look. For his diehard supporters, there's no question that this plays as a power move by him. They know he has a lot of leverage, they know he's responsible for bringing huge ratings to these debates, and look, there are a lot of people who are going to follow Trump wherever he goes, and that includes following him away from the debate to the event that he's going to hold tonight. The big question here in Iowa is, what about those undecided voters? What about those conservatives who are sort of undecided between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz? Do they look at this as a power move, or do they look at this as sort of cutting and running? And if they do, that could tip the scales, because remember, we're talking about the sort of major media event just four days out from the Iowa caucuses, so this could have a big impact on how those undecided voters think about what they do on Monday.

CUOMO: Do you think this is about Trump against the media, or Trump against Fox News, and the infight within the GOP?

BYERS: Well, fundamentally, it's about Trump doing what's best for Trump. But what he's doing, the fact that he can do this, the fact that he can go up against Fox News, which historically has been the network for Republican candidates, is because there's actually a great deal of sort of antipathy and anger toward Fox News among some ultra conservatives. When we think about the sort of American political media landscape, we very often think about Fox news being the network for Republicans. We confuse that with Fox News being the network for conservatives. For a lot of ultra conservatives, the sort of folks in talk radio land, the folks who read Breitbart and sites like that, they don't necessarily identify with Fox News. That's why you've seen Donald Trump have his feuds with various Fox News pundits, and why that's helped him in the polls.

CUOMO: Do you see that the same way as Dylan, that, you can say it's about him and the media, the media's not nice to him -- Fox News is different when you come to this analysis. And it's certainly different for a Republican. And do you see this, this kind of internal war playing out, these two opponents, right now?

LARRY HACKETT, FORMER MANAGING EDITOR, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: I think that people were talking about who Trump is fighting over, who Trump and Cruz and the other candidates are fighting over in Iowa, don't see Fox the way you and I and people here in Manhattan see Fox. They see Fox as being a established media organization. They don't necessarily see it as being a Republican arm. So I think Dylan's right. I think they think that he's being treated somewhat unfairly and I think absolutely, his idea that I'm doing this because I need to stand up to this, is going to be very effective. The idea that anybody who is undecided about Trump or Cruz right now would tip to the Cruz camp because of the idea of their belief in the idea of unfettered ideas at a debate, I just don't see that being significant.

CUOMO: Trump, put up the tweet about the Trump Twitter poll. Debate or not? Should I do the GOP debate? 56 on his own Twitter feed said yes, he should do it.

HACKETT: But how many of those said they're not going to vote for him now if he doesn't do it?

CUOMO: Fair point, fair point. But the, also point is are you doing the right thing or not? Dylan, go ahead.

BYERS: Yes, I would also just point out that while 56 is a majority, it's not necessarily a huge majority. I was talking to Steve Deace, who's a very influential conservative radio voice here in Iowa and nationally. And one thing he pointed out to me is that your average Iowa caucus-goer is not your average Fox News viewer. There's a huge disparity there. And for a lot of those guys, they look at Fox News and they see a lot of sort of Bush era pundits. They see a lot of establishment Republicans. They see Karl Rove, Charles Crowdhammer, George Will, Brit Hume. Look, all great guys, but they aren't the guys who are speaking to the conservative base. The people speaking to the conservative base are largely on talk radio, largely on some of these new conservative sites that have proliferated in the last five to ten years. And so we're just dealing, really, with two different sides of the GOP. Which side wins is what we're going to see on Monday.

CUOMO: Do you think Trump, last question, has any good case to make that the media is unfair to him?

HACKETT: No, none at all. The media has made Donald Trump. Every reporter in New York has gotten a phone call back from Donald Trump when they call him up. So the idea is, no. But people out there don't know that. And what's fascinating about this debate is that the essence of the argument about Megyn Kelly and is she unfair has been completely lost. O'Reilly touched on it last night but none of the conversation today is about that. Now it's about Fox, is it good strategy -- he effectively has made that argument about that he was unfair to Kelly go away. Now it's about him, Fox, strategy, politics, and the debate.

CUOMO: You know what? Good. Good for Trump. Because the things that he said about her as a woman are offensive and you can't lead being that way. And good for the media. Because you shouldn't be able to say, I'm going to boycott someone because I don't like the reporter's question.

[07:40:02] HACKETT: I absolutely agree. And I think the rules the media has played by by Trump have been -- they need to be rethought.

CUOMO: All right. Larry, Dylan, hey, thanks for being out in the cold for us. Appreciate it, pal. I know what it's like out there. John, over to you.

BERMAN: All right, thanks, Chris.

Hillary Clinton suddenly pushing for another debate before the New Hampshire primary. But Bernie Sanders pushing back. He has his own terms now. So how will this affect the race? A former top adviser to President Obama joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BERMAN: As the Republican candidates prepare for tonight's debate, Hillary Clinton is hoping she will get another debate with Bernie Sanders before the New Hampshire primary. So with just four days to go until Iowa, to the caucuses there, is this a last ditch effort to get another face-off?

Let's bring in CNN political commentator, former senior adviser to President Obama, Dan Pfeiffer. Dan, we're going to jump back and forth between the Republicans and the Democrats because you're just that good. Let me start with the Republicans right now. You tweeted out yesterday, you bet Donald Trump shows up to this debate tonight in Iowa. You think he makes some dramatic entrance there. You still believe that to be so?

DAN PFEIFFER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It seems less likely today after his interview with Bill O'Reilly last night, but it would be very fitting with Trump's style to play this out by keeping everyone in suspense until the absolute last moment and dive in there in the most dramatic fashion possible, because Donald Trump's entire strategy, and he's executed it fairly brilliantly, is to suck up all the oxygen and dominate the conversation for as long as possible and prevent people like Ted Cruz from getting oxygen out there. And this is a -- it's a truly -- he's teaching a master class in media manipulation in the run of the Iowa caucuses here.

[07:45:08] BERMAN: We're not going to give him any more oxygen right now, because I'm going to pivot to the Democrats right now. Nothing serves the American people more, Dan, than a debate about debates. And we're getting it on both sides of the aisle. But the Democrats now, it's the Clinton campaign that all of a sudden wants these debates back out in the sunlight for actual human viewers to see. This is what Hillary Clinton said about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Sanders has started to get increasingly personal with his attacks. He even compared me to Dick Cheney last week, which is kind of a low blow --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. But I think, actually, we have the Hillary Clinton talking about the debate sound bite right here. Let's play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I'm ready for the debate, and I hope Senator Sanders will change his mind and join us. I think the DNC and the campaign should be able to work this out. I've said for a long time that I'd be happy to have more debates and I hope we can get this done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So now Hillary Clinton wants more debates, now Bernie Sanders says well, maybe, or on my own terms or not so much. The Sanders campaign essentially says Hillary Clinton wants debates now because she needs debates. True?

PFEIFFER: I think they're right about that, John. Look, the dynamic in this race has changed dramatically in the last three weeks. It's very clear that Senator Sanders has some real momentum heading into Iowa. If he -- I still believe Hillary Clinton has a huge structural advantage to actually win the nomination, regardless of what happens in the first two states. But, this is a very different, much longer, and potentially much more painful nomination fight, if Senator Sanders sweeps the first two states. And so, the Clinton campaign is completely going on the offensive, trying to play the role of the underdog, the challenger here, to try to win Iowa, which I think, obviously, will make her life a lot easier and you can see Sanders already, the insurgent upstart now starting to play the role of the cautious frontrunner now that he's ahead and that's always a mistake if you're in that position. We made some of those mistakes in 2008 when we got too far ahead. That's why we lost New Hampshire.

BERMAN: So you think it's a risk. You think Sanders should say, you know what, you want a debate, let's go do it?

PFEIFFER: Senator Sanders has nothing to lose here. He needs to get out there and press his case all the way to the end if he wants to have a chance to win this thing.

BERMAN: All right. Pressing his case. Does that mean going negative? Because there are some remarkable articles this morning, "The New York Times" and "The Wall Street Journal" saying that there were meetings last night in the Sanders campaign. They bought all this ad time in Iowa. They're deciding, are you going to put on positive ads or negative ads? And they still haven't decided yet whether they're going to go negative in Iowa. Two questions. What do you think the calculation is about whether to go negative and why do you think they're leaking the fact that they can't decide?

PFEIFFER: Well, let me answer the second question first. That is absolute malpractice to have a public discussion in "The New York Times" about whether they're going to go positive or negative because now whatever they do is going to be pushed through a very strategic crass filter. So huge error there. Sort of amateur hour. Look, if you're going to win an election, you have to be willing to draw contrasts. In a Democratic primary against a very popular, well-liked individual like secretary Clinton, it is a mistake to do it personally. You can do it, as we did in 2008, drawing contrast on style, contrast on policy, but you have to draw contrast. Senator Sanders won't win this race if he doesn't draw some contrast. But if he does things like compare secretary Clinton to Dick Cheney, that's not going to play very well with Democratic voters.

BERMAN: All right. One other thing you did in 2008, you kind of had secret backroom deals with Bill Richardson on caucus night. There's the 15 percent threshold for Democrats there, wheeling and dealing, to get candidates who don't rise above 15 percent, to get their supporters. How much work is being done behind the scenes to get those Martin O'Malley supporters? People say, hey, he's at 3 or 4 or 5 percent, but that could matter. PFEIFFER: It could. I think it's less than in 2008. 2008, you had a long list of candidates. Richardson, Vice President Biden, Senator Dodd, who were not going to make threshold in a lot of districts. But that was a lot of voters to divvy up between John Edwards, Hillary Clinton, and President Obama. But in a lot of these smaller, rural districts that had disproportionate weight in the Iowa caucus system, that is going to matter. So if the Clinton and Sanders operations are well organized and well run, they will identify with supporters, begin outreach to them, and have a strategy to woo them over on caucus night. So in a very close race, and everything says this is going to be a very close race in Iowa, it could absolutely make a difference.

BERMAN: It will be an O'Malley factor. Dan Pfeiffer. Great to have you with us this morning. Thanks so much.

PFEIFFER: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: Alisyn --

[07:49:41] CAMEROTA: OK, John.

Everyone stick around for this next story, because he was held captive by Iran for 40 days before being freed in that prisoner swap earlier this month. What the American hostage says he went through and the dramatic final moments before securing his freedom. That's a CNN exclusive, next.

(COMMERICAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: One of the five Americans freed by Iran in that prisoner swap earlier this month is speaking out for the first time. Matthew Trevithick was held captive in an Iranian prison for more than a month and now he's telling his story in an exclusive interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "AC360": So when did you realize you were in trouble?

MATTHEW TREVITHICK, AMERICAN FREED FROM IRAN: I'm sitting in an interrogation cell on the second floor of a specific building used by the intelligence services in Iran and their very first sentence to me was, do you know Jason Rezaian? And I said, of course. The whole world knows Jason Rezaian. Everybody knows that name. And they were pacing behind me. The prayer beads clicking in his hand and he said, he's never leaving and neither are you. And that's when it starts to hit you. You're actually in prison.

COOPER: Were they accusing you to your face?

TREVITHICK: Oh, absolutely. I was accused of trying to overthrow the -- personally -- the Iranians say (ph) khudiman -- personally trying to overthrow the Iranian government. I was accused of having access to bank accounts of millions of dollars and I was accused of knowing the locations of weapons caches that had been secretly planted around the country to prepare for my work. And when I pointed out to them that the entire -- the tools I had available to me to accomplish this deed, which I would say would be fairly difficult -- consisted of some Farsi textbooks that I'd purchased in Iran, a newspaper, some flash cards, and some pens, they said, well it's not our plan, it's yours.

[07:55:04] COOPER: When did you know you were going to be released?

TREVITHICK: An hour before I was released, was definitely the most, I think, dangerous, two hours probably, dangerous and difficult time for me. I was violently pulled out of my cell, put into the -- rushed down to the basement. You make a series of left, right turns that are obviously designed to disorient you. You go downstairs and I could not believe, even having spent 41 days there, did not believe what I was looking at. I'm looking at a pitch black room with a single spotlight pointed at a chair with an ultrahigh definition camera, not dissimilar from the ones you have, pointed at my face and a white sheet next to the camera. I sit down. My interrogator walks in, stands behind a white sheet, i have no idea what they are about to film. The man operating the camera has a surgical mask on. I'm sitting there, spotlight's on me, and they say, Matthew. Matt. This is your last chance. Admit why you are here. Admit that you are here to overthrow the government. Admit that you work for the U.S. government. Admit. Admit it. Admit the truth.

And, this was a particularly proud moment for me. I contemplated it. They said, do you need time to think? And I said yes. They said, we'll give you a few minutes. But this is your last offer. This is the last chance. We've been very nice to you thus far. And I believed what they were saying. And they come back into the room and I look right in the camera and I say, I've said everything I have to say and I stand up and turn my back to the camera. Again, you have the meta-cognition going, your inner critic. Matt, what are you doing? This could be a very bad decision. It really just felt like the right thing to do. And they kept saying, well, you've made a very bad decision now. Rip me out of the cell, throw me up against a wall. I stay there for several minutes, and then I'm rushed back to my cell. And, OK, that's happening. Just take this. Lunch is on the ground. I eat lunch for a few minutes before another guard comes back, rips me out of my cell, says, collects all your things.

So you only collect all your things in Evin if you are leaving, or if you're being relocated. And I walk down the hallway, about ten paces from my cell. You go left. That's the door towards the exit. You go right, you're going deeper into the cell, you're going deeper into the prison towards solitary confinement cells and god nows what else. And I stop, my heart's racing. My inner critic now is louder than ever. Great Matt, now you're about to reap what you've sown. And oddly enough, they said turn left. And OK, drop your things. OK, quick medical examination.

They kind of like very hurriedly put me back in my street clothes, everything that I had when I was taken minus several things. And blindfold back on, sitting in the back of a car and the car makes a few turns and, take off the blindfold. OK, I look ahead, and that's when I see a sight I'll never forget. Two Swiss diplomats with the door open to a car. One of them said, Matthew, we'll go now. Get in the middle seat. And the car took off at 100 miles an hour to the airport.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Oh my gosh. What an intense story.

I had a chance to talk with Matt yesterday after that interview. We were outside on the street here in front of the building and he said, I can't believe I'm standing here on New York street, calling my friends on a cell phone about where to eat in Manhattan, and three weeks ago I was in an Iranian prison.

BERMAN: You can see that in his face because the whole time, I'm thinking, how can he say it with almost a smile on his face, and I think the smile is just, thank god I'm here.

CUOMO: We get a little desensitized because of movies and different things that you see now where this takes place but can you imagine walking into a room like where you have to assume that something very terrible may happen to you and your life comes down basically to how you answer a single question. He delivers this brilliantly with a kind of emotional distance, but you imagine what would be going through your head, who you would think you'd never see again, what you think is about to happen to you?

CAMEROTA: And why not, at that moment, just acquiesce and say, I'll say whatever you want me to say.

CUOMO: I think that that would be a very strong human inclination. And I know you're all out there, I can't wait for my screen to light up, not me, I'd never -- you don't know what you would do in a situation like that. I promise you that. Amazing.

CAMEROTA: All right. We're following a lot of news this morning. Let's get right to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I have zero respect for Megyn Kelly. I don't think she's very good at what she does. I think she's highly over rated.

CRUZ: Apparently Mr. Trump considers Megyn Kelly very, very scary.

O'REILLY: Answer the questions, look out for the folks. Just want you to consider it. You owe me milkshakes. I'll take them off the ledger.

TRUMP: I told you up front, I said, don't ask me that question.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, things don't always go your way.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It just seems kind of weird.