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Interview with Rand Paul; Flint Water Crisis; Prison Escape Manhunt Leads to Five Arrests. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired January 28, 2016 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] SEN. RAND PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Among conservatives, myself included, that we want to limit the power of the executive. We don't want a strong executive. We want more checks and balances between Congress and the president. And we actually want more power returned to the states and the people. So we don't want an all- powerful leader that says, oh, there - if you just give them power they will fix things. That's actually what we're concerned about government, that power has a corrupting influence. So I think he does want to avoid difficult questions. And I don't - I do think he's used to getting his way.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Politico has a piece on - in Donald Trump's absence what you will do and your strategy. So let me bounce it off of you. They say that, "for Cruz, Trump's absence means that the other candidate whose trail him in Iowa, such as Marco Rubio and Rand Paul, only have one leader to fire upon. Paul, whose sagging showing in the polls caused him to miss the last debate, has been itching to take on Cruz." Is that your plan tonight?

PAUL: Well, you know, I think he does have an authenticity problem, particularly with liberty voters. You know, we don't want the government collecting all our phone records. And when he told Marco Rubio that he voted for the reform because he wanted the government to collect 100 percent of our cell phone records, that troubles the liberty voter. When he didn't show up to vote for audit the Fed, something I've worked on for five years to get a vote, that troubled the liberty voters.

But I think also Rubio's had a point with him on the immigration issue that Cruz now wants to accuse everybody and everybody in the whole world of amnesty. And this is short of his shtick in Washington and goes to the problems he has in Washington is he creates these false narratives. He says everybody's for amnesty except for him. Except for during the debate over immigration, he actually was for legalization, which is not a bad thing to be for. In fact, if we secure the border first, I think it's a reasonable thing that we can work towards. But he used to be for that, now he's against it because he wants to be just as hard line as Donald Trump on immigration. And I think that there's a certain falseness that is going to come forward as people begin to examine his changing positions.

CAMEROTA: And we can expect you to bring that up tonight.

You're pulling out all the stops. We find you in Des Moines this morning. We understand that you have something like at least 16 campaign events between now and Monday's caucuses. What number do you think you need to come in, in the caucuses, and New Hampshire, to move forward?

PAUL: You know, our secret weapon will be the youth vote. And we don't know how many will turn out. But I do know that for the last several weeks, I've had about a hundred young men and women, college age, volunteers, making phone calls in Iowa. And they've made over 800,000 - in fact, I think it is approaching 900,000 phone calls for me. We believe we're going to cross the million phone call threshold in the next couple of days before the election. This is an extraordinary feat.

We have a thousand precinct chairs. We expect to surprise people and exceed all expectations. One of the interesting things about the polls is, when you ask people who they voted for in 2012, it's a very small number who are saying Ron Paul. So we think they're not picking up at all my father's voters. The liberty voters somehow aren't being included in these surveys. And so we think we're underestimated and we hope to shock some people.

CAMEROTA: Senator, I know it's hard to talk about ice cream when you're standing outside in the cold, but Ben and Jerry's ice cream has just come up with a new flavor for Bernie Sanders and I'm - we're wondering if you've ever considered what flavor ice cream could be dedicated to you.

PAUL: You know, I wonder if Ben and Jerry's is going to add to their business model that it ought to be free for everyone. So I think the Bernie Sanders ice cream ought to be free. But I'm guessing Ben - Ben and Jerry's, their socialism stops when it comes to not charging for ice cream.

CAMEROTA: Well played, senator. But just if you need a suggestion, we came up with with you - for you Kentucky bourbon brittle.

PAUL: Ah, I like that. I like that.

CAMEROTA: I thought you would like that. All right, senator, thanks so much. Of course we'll be watching tonight and beyond. Thanks so much for being on NEW DAY.

PAUL: Thanks. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Let's get over to John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Alisyn, thanks so much.

A remarkable CNN exclusive this morning with the man whose job is on the line in one of the most glaring man-made disasters in memory. Calls for the governor of Michigan to resign over the Flint water crisis which has left at least 100 children poisoned with lead, poisoned because of government decisions. CNN's Poppy Harlow spoke with Governor Rick Snyder to get some answers. She joins us now live from Flint.

Good morning, Poppy. POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, John.

The governor, Rick Snyder, calling this a terrible tragedy. He has apologized several times to the people here in Flint. He has vowed to do everything he can to help them at this point. His critics say it is too late. But the governor convened a meeting at the building right behind me yesterday with 17 experts, the doctors that discovered the lead in the water here, trying to figure out what they can possibly do to help the people of Flint who have been through the unthinkable.

[08:35:06] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Can the people of Flint today, as we sit here, can they drink the water?

GOV. RICK SNYDER (R), MICHIGAN: No. We don't want them to. And that's the terrible tragedy of all this.

HARLOW (voice-over): This morning, as the people of Flint wait and wonder if they have been poisoned by the lead in their water, Michigan Governor Rick Snyder admits he failed them and promises to fix the crisis.

HARLOW (on camera): All medical experts agree no level of lead ingestion by anyone, especially children under the age of six, is OK. So you're -

SNYDER: That's correct.

HARLOW: You said last week, over 100 children here in Flint have high levels of lead in their blood. How many kids is it as we sit here today?

SNYDER: It's about a hundred and some if you go back over the last couple of years.

HARLOW: You're saying there's 100 children as of now and there may be many, many more.

SNYDER: There could be many more and we're assuming that.

HARLOW (voice-over): A local pediatrician, one of the first to discover the lead in the water here, calls the impact on the children irreversible and multigenerational.

HARLOW (on camera): Doctor Monahana Tanisha (ph) told me that what can be done is that you can minimize the impact through early literature program, universal preschool, access to healthy foods, they say the calcium binds instead of the lead to the child's bones, et cetera, mental health services. She put a price tag on that, governor, and she told me it's going to cost $100 million just to do that. Will you make sure they get a $100 million?

SNYDER: I'm not sure she would know how to put the price tag. I have reviewed recommendations she's made and actually a number of those actions we were already working on doing in Flint. HARLOW: She's done the analysis. I'm asking you again, $100 million. Will you make sure they get that if that's what they need?

SNYDER: Well, we're making sure they get what they need.

HARLOW (voice-over): A 2011 study found water from the Flint River would have to be treated with an anti-corrosive agent to be safe to drink. To do that would have only cost $100 a day. But that was never done.

HARLOW (on camera): I was speaking with a young man this morning and he said to me, they put money over people. And he said, the black lives and the poor white lives weren't worth it. When you look at the numbers, $100 a day, what happened?

SNYDER: Well, that's the failure point. I mean, in terms of cost structures, $100 a day, this is where the huge error was is people - there were people that were subject matter experts in this that didn't believe that needed to be done. That was a huge mistake. That was part of the fundamental mistake of this whole situation.

HARLOW: Didn't need to be done, why?

SNYDER: Well, again, in terms of -

HARLOW: That money was given priority here -

SNYDER: No, not on that point.

HARLOW: Over these people?

SNYDER: Not at all. This is where the investigations will follow up. And all those - in terms of the details of all that. And we're cooperating with all those investigations because I want to find out what went on. I want the facts out there.

HARLOW: The kids were being poisoned by the water they were drinking here. The EPA knew about it.

SNYDER: It doesn't -

HARLOW: Your spokesman, your former spokesman, knew about it in July 2015 and sent an e-mail about it. And you didn't declare a state of emergency until January of this year. Why did it take so long?

SNYDER: Actually, I learned about it in October. And I took action immediately then, offering filters, working with people on getting water, on doing water testing. Again, we needed to do more though. So as soon as I learned about it, we took dramatic action.

HARLOW: Why not just immediately replace all of the lead pipes?

SNYDER: That's a question you can ask across the country. And the challenge of that is, is that's not a short -

HARLOW: But I'm asking you because Flint - SNYDER: That's not a short term project.

HARLOW: Flint has had people poisoned.

SNYDER: That is not a short-term project in terms of ripping up all the infrastructure, replacing all that. That can take an extended period of time.

HARLOW: Your former spokesman wrote an e-mail back in July of 2015. Here's part of it. "I'm frustrated by the water issue in Flint. These folks are scared and worried about health impacts and they are basically getting blown off by us." You have said since then that you knew about that e-mail and that you were made aware of that. Why not act then?

SNYDER: The experts came back from both the department of environmental quality and health and human services to say they didn't see a problem with lead in the water or lead in the blood and -

HARLOW: Folks here did.

SNYDER: Well, again -

HARLOW: They were getting rashes.

SNYDER: This is in -

HARLOW: Their kids were having rashes. The water was discolored.

SNYDER: You could let me finish, Poppy. I mean that makes you feel terrible. I mean I wish you would have done something different.

HARLOW (voice-over): As the scope of the crisis has grown, residents have rallied, demanding the governor step down.

HARLOW (on camera): A number of the residents that I've spoken with in Flint have said ultimately they want accountability. Governor, will you resign?

SNYDER: No. Again, I think it's normal. The right action is, is if you have a problem that happened from people that were - you were responsible for, you go solve it. You don't walk away from it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: All right, so here is what we do know. So far $28 million has been committed to helping the people here. The governor has said they will go after more money. As you heard, the doctor said they need $100 million just to give the children the help they need, early education programs, proper nutrition to try to counteract some of that lead poisoning as much as they can.

[08:40:15] In terms of replacing those lead pipes, the governor did tell me they are looking at it. It may happen. That price tag is going to be somewhere between $50 million and $75 million according to the EPA. We'll be watching. We told them we want to come back, Chris, and see this progress as it happens. I will tell you, the governor told me he will be spending a lot more time here with the people of Flint to do everything they possibly can, Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: The governor also announced at his State of the State that he had a $570 million plus surplus. The question is, where does that money go?

HARLOW: They do. Yes. Yes.

CUOMO: Poppy, thank you very much. Stay warm and stay on this story. Appreciate it.

So, the manhunt intensifying for those three escaped inmates in California. Now five people are under arrest. The fugitives, though, still on the run. Did they get help from the outside, the inside, both, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:45:01] BERMAN: Time now for the five things to know for your NEW DAY.

Number one, Donald Trump says he is firmly planning to boycott tonight's Fox News debate. Trump will host a veteran's benefit he says instead. Other Republicans say Trump is afraid to answer tough questions.

Overnight three militants occupying that Oregon refuge, they were arrested. The group's leader, Ammon Bundy, who was currently in jail is urging a small band of remaining armed protesters, he wants them to go home.

Charges now filed against the widow of a disgraced Illinois Police Lieutenant who killed himself last year. Melanie Gliniewicz is accused of helping her husband steal money donated to his charity.

The investigation into the jailbreak at Orange County, Califorina's largest lockup leading to the arrest of five people, several of those in custody, alleged Vietnamese gang members, two of three of the escapees have alleged ties to that gang.

Today marks the 30th anniversary of the space shuttle Challenger disaster. Later this morning, (inaudible) ceremonies will be held at Florida's Kennedy Space Center and at Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia to remember the seven crew members who died.

For more now on the five things to know, go to newdaycnn.com for the very latest.

Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, John. A potential breakthrough to help earlier detection of schizophrenia. In today's "New Day, New You," researchers zeroing in on a process during adolescence that reduces brain connections no longer needed for adulthood. Now researchers say if the genes that control that process are too intense, the genes can tell the body to dismantle a dangerous number of brain connections which could bring on schizophrenia. This findings in time could help establish new targeted early treatment methods.

CUOMO: As John mentioned just earlier, those three California inmates who escaped from jail are still on the run. We are getting an insider's take on how this happened, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:50:53] BERMAN: At least five people with alleged gang ties have been arrested in connection with the escape of three inmates in an Orange County jail. Meantime, new court documents shedding new light on how those dangerous fugitives escaped.

Joining us now, retired New York State Department of Corrections Sergeant Jeff Dumas. Jeff worked at the Clinton Correctional Facility where, you remember, two inmates escaped last summer. Jeff, thanks for being with us.

We're going on like a week that these guys have been on the run. As every day passes, less likely they are caught?

JEFF DUMAS, RETIRED N.Y. STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS SERGEANT: Yeah. Good morning, John. Eventually they are going to get caught. But it is going to take a little while. And you are looking at a different scenario in California than you were in upstate New York. Because --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Because in upstate New York it was the wilderness. Right? Those guys were alone in the middle of nowhere. Here, they are in California. Not too far from L.A.

DUMAS: Absolutely. So -- And especially the two with the gang ties, they have a network that is going to try to protect them. And they are in a city environment. So they are being taken care of. Whereas the escape in New York, those guys were out. They had to scrounge and try to find everything that they could. In L.A., chances are there's people helping them and they have everything that they need.

BERMAN: And we saw five arrests in this case in the area already. Some with alleged gang ties like two of the inmates. So then how are investigators going about this? Are they trying to roll up these people they are apprehending right now?

DUMAS: Oh absolutely. If they can find a crime that's been committed by any of these gang members, now they face time, if they can squeeze them and get information from them and make a deal instead of them going prison, hey, we'll give up the guys that are supposed to be in prison, that's the way the investigators are going to go about it. They are just going to keep piling up the arrests until they can get somebody to give them information.

I mean, the normal citizens that live in those areas, they don't want to give it up because their lives are in danger by the gang members. If they give up a gang member, then they are in trouble within their own neighborhood. So it is going to be a fellow gang member that is going to end up giving them away.

BERMAN: Let's back up a little bit to what the situation was inside the jail. If these guys are such dangerous figures, if two of the three were such potentially violent gang members, why were they housed together?

DUMAS: You know, I can only speak from my experience in New York. But in seeing what's going on in California, you have to remember that these guys weren't convicted yet. They are just in a county jail awaiting trial. So in the county jail they are being warehoused. Should they have been segregated? Absolutely. But it becomes a budgetary item with the county that how many cells can the county afford to, you know, keep in their budget. Whereas if you have a big dormitory style setting that they were in, it is easier to house inmates in a dormitory style setting because it is cost effective.

BERMAN: 15 hours before --

DUMAS: So that's probably why that they were there waiting..

BERMAN: What about the 15 hours before head counts? That seems like a very large gap.

DUMAS: Yes, that is huge. That's unbelievable. I don't understand how they can get away with that. I dare say that that will be the first thing that they change. You know, it all depends on their programs, what they have going for these inmates, you know, because you do have political pressure saying they must go for education. They have healthcare. They have lawyer visits. They have all kinds of things that they have to let them out to do. So in the morning you have them all in one area. You can count them. But throughout the day at this jail they may be going back and forth everywhere.

BERMAN: Jeff, quickly --

DUMAS: And you don't have them back in until late at night.

BERMAN: Jeff, quickly, we have about 20 seconds left. Any chance that they didn't have help on the inside? They cut through thick metal. They had obviously the resources to get out. Did that require some kind of inside help?

[08:55:00] DUMAS: Absolutely. In order for them to cut through what they did, they had to have some help. But whether -- when you say inside it, it could be from a civilian employee or it could have been smuggled in through the visiting rooms from somebody on the outside, thus becoming inside help. But something was definitely smuggled to them in order for them to make this happen -- make this break.

BERMAN: Jeff Dumas. Thank so much. Appreciate it.

"Good Stuff" is next.

DUMAS: Hey, thank you, John. Have a good day. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Here we go. Bobby Smith. Grew up in Flint, Michigan. Hears about the contaminated water. Hates it, of course. Says what am I going to do about it? Takes action into his own hands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBY SMITH: I don't got the money, but I got the voice. And if the voice can be heard, then I can get help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: See that? Bobby doesn't even live in Flint right now. So some of his family and friends still do. He went to them. He used that voice to knock door to door, go to local business, asking people to donate cases of water bottles.

CAMEROTA: Oh.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a good cause. They need help in Michigan and this is something we try to do, help our community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: So far 250 cases of water that he's already started distributing around his hometown of Flint. Need a lot of Bobbys right now. But also a recognition.

CAMEROTA: That's a great.