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GOP in Disarray Over Efforts to Topple Trump; Ex-Clinton Staffer Accepts Immunity Deal in E-mail Probe; Debris Found Off Mozambique Could Be from MH-370. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired March 03, 2016 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: CNN's Sunlen Serfaty in Overland Park, Kansas, on the GOP race -- Sunlen.

[07:00:06] SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris.

Well, Mitt Romney set to speak in just a few hours in Utah about the divided Republican field, and get ready: Romney will go right after Donald Trump in a big way.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SERFATY (voice-over): The 2012 Republican nominee speaking out today against the 2016 frontrunner, Donald Trump. Romney releasing part of his prepared remarks this morning, planning to slam Trump, calling him a phony and fraud, and putting his support squarely behind Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and John Kasich.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Go out and get 'em. You can do it.

SERFATY: Trump, who once endorsed Mitt Romney, anticipating the attacks, tweeting last night, quote, "Looks like two-time failed candidate Mitt Romney is going to be telling Republicans how to get elected. Not a good messenger."

And his campaign releasing this paid ad questioning Romney's conservative leadership.

TRUMP: We have expanded the Republican Party.

SERFATY: The feud coming as the frontrunner gets the cold shoulder from GOP leaders after his sweeping seven-state victory on Super Tuesday.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What people are saying now is please, everyone get together so we can keep this frontrunner from winning.

SERFATY: Former candidate Lindsey Graham suggesting he's so against Trump he'd now even support Ted Cruz.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Ted and I are in the same party. Donald Trump is an interloper. I don't trust him.

SERFATY: But Trump continues to argue that he's the one to unify the party.

TRUMP: When you're dealing in Congress, you have to get them all into a room and we have to say, "Fellows, let's go. It's for the good of the people."

SERFATY: And tonight now, only four candidates will face off in the debate. Dr. Ben Carson pulling out after Tuesday's results as Texas Senator Ted Cruz admits his campaign could have met the same fate.

CRUZ: If we had lost Texas, that would have been the end of the road. I don't think a candidate has a viable path forward if you can't run your home state.

SERFATY: Cruz trying to make Carson's loss his gain, extending an invitation to supporters of other GOP hopefuls.

CRUZ: If you've been supporting another candidate, we welcome you on our team. If you've been supporting Donald Trump, we really welcome you on our team.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SERFATY: And you saw Ted Cruz there really put some not-so-subtle pressure on Marco Rubio to do well in his home state on March 15 or else. Certainly, this will be one of the big dynamics that drives tonight -- tonight's debates, Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Sunlen. Thank you very much. The big question is, can you get at Trump by just attacking him or does somebody have to offer something better?

Let's bring in David Kochel, one-time senior advisor to Mitt Romney's presidential campaign.

Obviously very relevant this morning, sir, on the verge of hearing about the big speech from Mitt Romney. Now we already have an advance on some of the things. He's going to use harsh language: fraud, scammer. He's going to use those types of words. Is this the right message from Mitt Romney, especially given what he said about Trump before? Let's play a little bit of what he said in 2012.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are some things that you just can't imagine happening in your life. This is one of them. Being in Donald Trump's magnificent hotel and having his endorsement is a delight. I'm so honored and pleased to have his endorsement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Honored and pleased; now saying bad things about him. Just plain politics? How does this work?

DAVID KOCHEL, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO MITT ROMNEY PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Well, we're learning a lot more about Donald Trump as this campaign goes on. And I think Governor Romney's kind of watched this campaign unfold, some of the triggers that Donald Trump is hitting in the American people, and it's turned into a real nasty and divisive campaign.

I think what we can expect from Mitt Romney today -- I haven't -- obviously, I haven't talked to him. I haven't seen what's in the speech. But I can tell you, we won't be embarrassed to let our kids listen to it, like we've -- like we've been by some of the things Donald Trump has said in the campaign.

CUOMO: But as a communications expert, you worked in Romney. You know the system; you know the game. The idea of going negative and not giving people a reason to believe that it's better than what Donald Trump is offering, how do you think that's going to work?

KOCHEL: Well, I think we have to listen to what he has to say first. I mean, let's let him give the speech and outline his thinking. First of all, he almost got 61 million votes in 2012. He's earned the right to say whatever he wants. He's a -- he's a statesman in the party. He's a statesman in the country. He loves the country, which is why he ran for president. So let's see what he has to say. I think -- I'd like to wait and listen to his message.

But we do have other candidates listening, obviously. Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, John Kasich still in the race. There's a lot of time between now and March 15. There's another 700 delegates being chosen then. Donald Trump has only won 40-something percent of the delegates so far, and you know, he's -- he's got a long ways to go to convince me and a lot of other people in the party that he's the right person to carry that message forward.

[07:05:07] CUOMO: Right. He's obviously done some convincing, though, because all of you are really in a tizzy that he is going to get the nomination, and obviously, that's what's prompting this frenzy of activity.

And he, of course, is responding the way a batter would to a 60-mile- per-hour ball down the middle of the plate. Take a look at his tweets that he put out this morning alone. "Failed candidate Mitt Romney, who ran one of the worst races in presidential history, is working with the establishment to bury a big 'R' win."

Another one. Wait for it. "Looks like two-time failed candidate Mitt Romney is going to be telling Republicans how to get elected. Not a good messenger.

Jeffrey Lord, are you joining us now? Sorry to get you out of bed.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: I am, sir.

CUOMO: Good to have you, Jeffrey. Do you believe that Mitt Romney can put a dent in Donald Trump?

LORD: No, as a matter of fact, I think he's on Donald Trump's payroll. This is a wonderful thing for Donald Trump. Have Mitt Romney come out and say Donald Trump is a terrible thing and shouldn't happen? Yes, please do that.

CUOMO: Why? You seem like you're in a little bit of a state of shock, Jeffrey.

LORD: I mean, you know, look, I like Mitt Romney, but I mean, sadly, I mean, this is just typical, typical of the Republican establishment. I mean, Ronald Reagan handed over to the Republican establishment a party with, you know, three presidential wins, two for Reagan and one for George H.W. Bush as his successor. And they ran it into the ground.

And Mitt Romney, you know, is just but the latest example of this. You know, not smart and no idea what they're doing; they are clueless. And to do something like this, I mean, all this is going to do is encourage people to remember why exactly the Republican establishment is so clueless.

CUOMO: Isn't the best bet, at this point, Mr. Hodgel [SIC] -- Hockel [SIC], that you -- Kochel, sorry -- that you want to say to the delegates who've already voted for Donald Trump -- they're just pledged, right? We all know this. But for the audience, primaries are very different than a general election. When you vote in a primary, you're just doing the number selection for who gets to go and caucus at the convention for a candidate.

Wouldn't the best take right now to be to speak to those candidates and make a better case than the one that Donald Trump has made? Or do you think just insulting away will make a difference?

KOCHEL: Well, I think you can't -- as Jeb Bush used to say, you can't insult your way to the presidency. I don't think it's going to work for Donald Trump. And I think what Jeffrey and other people need to explain is why is Donald Trump the worst candidate against Hillary Clinton when you look at all the polling? All three of the other candidates who are still in the race have -- some of them that even left the race do better against Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump does.

So I think what's going on here is you're seeing the party being torn apart. And it's not -- it's not because of Mitt Romney or other people who are running in this race. It's really Donald Trump. He's brought a tone and a tenor to this campaign that has been very divisive, very negative. It's -- it's really alienating a lot of voters, not just Hispanics, women. I think independents are going to running the other direction.

And so I think what we're concerned about is the general election. Mitt Romney ran against an incumbent president. That's a very difficult thing. This is an election in 2016 that we should win. And I think with Donald Trump running the weakest among the field, I think it bodes very poorly for our party in November.

CUOMO: Jeffrey, is Donald Trump the destruction of the GOP?

LORD: Chris, Ronald Reagan ran against an incumbent president, and he carried 44 states. I mean, this is just pathetic. This is very sad. They have no idea what they're doing. I mean -- I mean, again, he's a lovely person, but this is incompetence.

CUOMO: Do you get why they don't like him?

LORD: I'm sorry, what?

CUOMO: Do you get why they are rejecting him?

LORD: Why the establishment is rejecting Donald Trump?

CUOMO: Yes.

LORD: Sure, sure. I get this. Because they don't like to win, yes. Absolutely. I mean, it's not just Mitt Romney; it's John McCain. Good lord, you go all the way back to Bob Dole and Gerald Ford and Thomas E. Dewey. Yes, they have no idea what they're doing. And, you know, it's very sad.

You know, good luck to Mitt Romney, but, you know, hasta la vista. I mean, this is a -- they proved to be -- he proved to be a terrible candidate for president. That's a fact.

CUOMO: So at some point -- let's put up the "TIME" cover here, David. And, you know, we're showing people this "TIME" cover, all these boxes checked that have different descriptions of what Trump is: "bully," "showman," you know, "demagogue," "party crasher." The only box that hasn't been checked is "45th president of the United States."

Now, the message in that -- that cover is pretty simple. It's yes, he's all these things that some people think are good or bad, but it is getting him to where he needs to be.

Do you think there will come a time, if this doesn't work, this flush of trying to get rid of him, that they have to embrace him? And maybe the party is different now? Maybe that's grown in a way that makes it more about what Trump is selling than what you guys were selling before?

[07:10:16] KOCHEL: I don't think we've ever seen an election, at least in my lifetime -- and I've been doing this for 30 years -- where you win on a message of fear and anger. I think the only message that can win a presidential election is one of hope, opportunity and a brighter future, and I don't think that's what he's selling. I think he's selling -- I think he's selling anger and divisiveness.

And I think what he's going to do is he's going to build a wall, but it's going to be around the White House, and Republicans aren't going to be able to get in. And, you know, the GOP is going to get stuck with a tab for a long time.

CUOMO: All right, gentlemen. Thank you very much for weighing in on this. Appreciate it -- Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Some other -- some other news here. The former staffer who set up Hillary Clinton's private e-mail server will speak to FBI investigators after accepting an immunity offer from the Justice Department. Could this spell trouble for Clinton as the FBI wraps up its investigation in the heat of the election?

Joe Johns is live in Washington with more for us. Hi, Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela.

Republican critics are calling this an ominous development, but it can also be seen as a step toward injecting some transparency into the issue of those State Department e-mails on the private server of the former secretary of state. It could for once and for all get answers to the questions about State Department e-mails that have been dogging Hillary Clinton and her campaign.

Bryan Pagliano was forced to invoke his right against self- incrimination, in no small part due to a congressional investigation. It's common practice for lawyers to advise clients to shut up in situations like this until some arrangement can be made. He's now free to talk to federal investigators without threat of prosecution, as long as he sticks to the truth.

Pagliano is the former Clinton staffer who helped her set up her e- mail server. An investigation has found Clinton received information that wasn't marked as classified but should have been kept inside the government's secure system.

Now that federal investigators have secured his cooperation, they can make progress in the part of determining whether any laws were broken. A major question in investigations like this is whether anybody knew they were transmitting classified information.

The Clinton campaign has been saying all of this information needs to get out in the open. That was the message on Wednesday. Brian Fallon, the Clinton spokesman releasing a statement saying, "Secretary Clinton has been cooperating with the Justice Department's security inquiry, including offering in August to meet with them to assist their efforts if needed."

Republican presidential candidate Ted Cruz, on FOX, said it suggests Hillary Clinton could be badly wounded as a candidate as a result of this -- Michaela.

PEREIRA: I suppose time will tell. All right, Joe. Thank you so much for that.

Well, the next week is March Madness right here on CNN. It begins Sunday with the next Democratic debate in Flint, Michigan, followed by a series of "RACE TO THE WHITE HOUSE." Next Tuesday is the next Super Tuesday night. Wednesday brings another Democratic debate in Miami, and then on Thursday, the next Republican debate in Miami. A week full of political events right here on CNN.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: A piece of debris, possibly from MH-370, is set to be sent to Australia for analysis after washing up in Mozambique. A U.S. official says it appears to be from a Boeing 777.

CNN correspondent David McKenzie is live in Mozambique with the very latest. Good morning, David.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

Yes, well extraordinary turn of events. This American tourist and enthusiast, it must be said, who's been looking for any clues of MH- 370, Blaine Gibson, he was in the country. He left just moments ago to head to Malaysia. But he found this object on a sand bank off in the Indian Ocean which appears to be from a plane. He handed it into authorities here, and they're investigating whether it could be part of MH-370. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLAINE GIBSON, FOUND POSSIBLE AIRPLANE PART: What through my -- what went through my mind when I found it is that this is something that could be part of an airplane and could be part of that airplane. And you say, well, how could it possibly have wound up here? That's like asking how could anyone possibly win the lottery. Someone is going to win it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKENZIE: And the lottery he is speaking about is the currents that come from east to west that possibly could bring debris, like we saw last year to Reunion of a confirmed piece of MH-370. U.S. Officials saying it could be possibly the plane, but we saw that piece. Here are some images of it in this building behind me, civil aviation authorities being very cautious saying it possibly could be from a smaller plane, but certainly not saying definitively yet, they have to examine it -- Chris.

CUOMO: David, stay on it for us and let us know what the developments are. Appreciate it.

[07:15:03] In other news, an Alabama police officer being charged with the murder in the death of an unarmed black man. A week ago today, 23-year-old Officer Aaron Smith shot and killed 58-year-old Gregory Gunn as he was walking home late at night. Officials initially said Gunn was holding something that appeared to be a weapon. Smith's attorney says the charges are politically motivated.

PEREIRA: Three people have been arrested, and police are searching for at least seven others after a brazen robbery at a gun store in Houston. Watch this. It's all caught on camera. The workers [SIC] worked together to chain their truck to the front door and tear it off and they swarmed inside of the store. Police say they got away with as many as 50 weapons.

CUOMO: I am always shocked with anybody thinks to rob a gun store. People even tried to get into a gun range. You know, you have to guess that so many people in there will also be armed.

CAMEROTA: You'd think.

CUOMO: But this time they got away with it. CAMEROTA: It's amazing.

All right. Well, a possible roadblock on Hillary Clinton's path to the Democratic nomination. The former staffer who set up her private e-mail server now set to speak with investigators. John King is here to talk about it all, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:20:05] CAMEROTA: The e-mail controversy dogging Hillary Clinton's campaign is in the spotlight this morning. The Justice Department granting immunity to the former Clinton staffer who set up her private e-mail server. Here to discuss this, as well as the revolt in the GOP, CNN chief national correspondent John King.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Revolts? What revolts?

CAMEROTA: Something is revolting.

John, great to have you here in the studio. OK, let's talk about this, former of top I.T. staffer for Hillary Clinton who set up the private e-mail serve can now speak freely, because he's been given immunity, to the FBI. How big of a deal?

KING: It is a big deal, but I would say if you're Hillary Clinton, you should be nervous; and you should be happy. You should be nervous because this means they're going to get into the nuts and bolts in the investigation now. The guy who set it up, what did she say? What were the deals? Did she talk anything about, you know, "Are my e- mails secure? What if I receive sensitive information?"

The FBI is going to have the guy who was right there on the ground when they installed this thing right now.

But -- but let's just step back for a minute. The Republicans are saying this is a sign of the coming indictment and everything else. Let's -- everyone should take a breath. It means they're moving forward with the investigation.

Hillary Clinton, you know, she has a debate this weekend. She's going to still have to answer about this. The Republicans hit her every day on this. If it means you're getting closer to the end of the investigation, and if she is supremely confident that she did nothing wrong, it's a good thing for her. So let's just see. We should all take a breath.

But it does mean that this is common in investigations. You cut deals with your, you know, two or three, four level witnesses to talk about the main issues.

CUOMO: There's no question it's a good investigative strategy. The question is, is it good political strategy. Seems like the answer is no.

To Alisyn's point, he was always free to speak freely to the investigators. He didn't want to until he got immunity, and even though the Fifth Amendment is write large everywhere in our society's laws, it doesn't smell good.

KING: No, it doesn't, and it's a pretty common practice, and you know the law very well. This is done in investigations every day, whether you're investigating a robbery at the 7-Eleven, or whether you're investigating Hillary Clinton's e-mail server. It's a pretty common tactic: cut a deal with the people who are not central to the investigation to get the information that you need for the investigation.

But you're right, especially in this political environment, it's a great headline for the other side: immunity deal, Clinton investigation. But let's see when we get to the end what the FBI says.

CAMEROTA: Well, one of the things the Hillary Clinton campaign is saying, they're pleased, they say, that this is moving forward, because at some point, there should be an end. They also say that she offered to speak to the FBI, but the FBI hadn't taken her up on it.

KING: Well, she's, you know -- Jake Tapper asked her about this a couple months back. And she's, like, no. She's in a tough box. No. 1, you know, she's -- I hope she does; I hope she's fully transparent. I hope anybody that's subject to an investigation would say, "Come take the questions." At the same time, she's -- she's hostage to their schedule, and so, you know, that's life at this point. What can you do at this point? Except I would assume in their camp, they want this done. They want to just get it over with.

CAMEROTA: Sure.

CUOMO: I'll save you a call from the Hillary Clinton campaign. They would say she is subject to an investigation. She has not been named the subject of an investigation.

KING: It's a very important point.

CUOMO: It is, certainly, for their campaign.

KING: Right.

CUOMO: That's how they're feeling about it.

All right. Let's look at the other side of the ball, the GOP. Isn't the revolt what Trump is bring into the party right now, this new blood, this new thought of what they should be about? Isn't that why he's winning? Why is the establishment not embracing his success?

KING: Well, there's two ways to look at this. Well, there are 100 ways to look at this, but to the point you make, if you have an organization, if you have a business and suddenly, you have a whole lot of new customers, you should be happy, right? You're getting all these people who are coming in; they're flooding the polls. The turnout -- turnout is way up in a year when you need it to win a presidential election. You should think, "This is great." And that part about Trump is good for the Republican Party. However, they have zero confidence he would govern as a conservative.

They have zero confidence he would do anything of the things he has said in his campaign. And they have zero confidence he has the discipline to run a general election presidential campaign. And they're worried -- essentially, he's been compared by several Republicans, a guy with a hand grenade in his mouth, and he's biting the pin. That their candidates for Senate, their candidates for House, their candidates for governor, in the middle of October, Trump does something Trumpian, and they get wiped out. And so there's a nervous factor.

But this is a hard one for them in the sense that you could call it a hostile takeover of their party, if you will. But at the moment, he's succeeded, and the customers are embracing him.

CAMEROTA: Something interesting is happening this morning. Mitt Romney, the 2012 GOP nominee, is giving a speech at the University of Utah in a couple of hours, and he is using his strongest language yet to call out Trump. We got a copy of that speech. Here's what it says: "Here's what I know. Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud. His promises are as worthless as a degree from Trump University. He is playing the American public for suckers. He gets a free ride to the White House, and all we get is a lousy hat."

How do you think this will go over with the party and everyone else?

KING: Well, you were talking a little bit earlier about Trump's reaction. Trump loves this, because another establishment figure is coming out against him.

When you travel the country and talk to Republican voters, they dislike, distrust, in sometimes stronger language, their own establishment -- the Mitt Romneys, the Mitch McConnells, the Speaker Ryans -- as much, if not in some cases more than President Obama. They think their establishment have given them the shaft. They think they won the House, the took back the Senate, they increased their House majority, they won 30 governorships, and what did we get?

So they, in a way this plays right into Trump.

[07:25:05] I would just say this. I have a great deal of respect for Governor Romney as a public servant, but he's now -- he's the former nominee of what I call the Rip Van Winkle leadership of the Republican Party. It has been clearly evident to us for months that Donald Trump was succeeding. Why did they wait? Why did they wait? Can they now take the trophy back from him? He's got the football now, and he's cleared mid-field, and he sees the end zone. And now they're suddenly trying. They spotted him 40 points, and now they're trying to win the game in the second half. Good luck.

CUOMO: You know, you've got a lot of people on the sideline screaming to Trump, "Run, Forrest, run!" as he's going down. It's going to be tough to catch.

But now here's the one argument that I think you'll probably make better than anyone. In the numbers, we see popularity of enthusiasm among them up big. The argument is that enthusiasm can cut both ways. Those who are voting for Rubio and Cruz rarely list Trump as a second choice, and often say, "I would not vote for Trump."

Is there a chance that that whole group moves away from them in the general election, and that's why -- it doesn't come out or maybe some of them switch -- and that's why they are worried about Trump?

KING: We're early in a chapter here, early in this book. We're in an early chapter, so we don't really know how this goes. There's some talk, if Trump wins the nomination, of people breaking off and running a third-party candidate, a third-party conservative. What would that do to the dynamic? We don't know the answers to those questions. We're going to have to watch how this plays out.

If Trump keeps winning, some in the establishment are trying to accommodate him now. Some of the establishment are trying to embrace him. Some are trying to negotiate with him and say, "Would you tone the rhetoric down? Maybe we can make this work."

Others are saying, you know, "Let's have a third-party candidacy." That's -- that tug of war is going to continue for a while. If he keeps winning, more and more people will try to embrace him. Ride the bull, if you will, because of those voters. If all your voters are saying, "We want this guy," enough people are starting to say, "OK, this is crazy, but let's strap ourselves on this bull, get through November, not offend the voters. Win or lose, we'll try to keep those voters in the end." Let's see how that plays out.

But there's a chance here that the party of Lincoln and Reagan could fracture and crumble and become pick-up sticks. The Republicans, in my lifetime covering politics, have been the disciplined national party. And to Jeffrey Lord's point earlier, sure, they've lost by picking Bob Dole, by picking Mitt Romney, by picking John McCain, but you kind of knew how it was going to go. It's chaos now. It's just chaos.

With the map -- look, Donald Trump is about a quarter of the way to clinching the delegates. There are 178 delegates at stake before March 15. This is -- this is my point. The establishment keeps saying, "On March 15, when there are 360 delegates at stake, it becomes winner-take-all. Big states like Florida, big states like Ohio, that's when we're going to get him."

CUOMO: They're playing it like the Ides of March, you know, when Caesar got taken down.

KING: If you wait until March 15, you're conceding him another 80, 100 delegates or so. You're conceding him another touchdown, a field goal. You can't wait. There are some contests this weekend. Ted Cruz should be able to win Louisiana. Marco Rubio should be able to win in some of these places. If they can't start now, I'm sorry, the math gets overwhelming.

CAMEROTA: John King, thanks so much. Great to have you here.

There's a lot happening this week. Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders will square off in their next debate on Sunday night in Flint, Michigan. Anderson Cooper will moderate that. It's Sunday night, 8 p.m. Eastern, only here on CNN -- Michaela.

PEREIRA: So you know Donald Trump really touched a nerve with those comments about the KKK, and he's speaking out about it again this morning. Were his comments actually part of his strategy, though? Ahead, we're going to take a look at the role race plays in the 2016 campaign.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)