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Final Five Candidates Gear Up For "Western Tuesday"; Could Cruz and Kasich Join Forces To Stop Trump; Cuban-Americans Split Over Obama's Trip To Cuba; Republican Leaders Mapping Plan to Stop Trump; Would GOP Back Third Party Option Against Trump. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired March 21, 2016 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:33:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: The final five presidential hopefuls looking for victories tomorrow in what's being called Western Tuesday. Both parties holding primaries in Arizona and Utah. Democrats also caucusing in Idaho. So what's at stake tomorrow?

Let's bring in CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist, Paul Begala. He's the senior advisor to a pro-Hillary Clinton Super PAC. And Lisa Boothe, Republican strategist and contributor for the Washington Examiner. Great to have both of you with us.

LISA BOOTHE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Hi, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Hi, Lisa, great to have you here in the studio.

BOOTHE: Thanks for having me, appreciate it.

CAMEROTA: Sure, let's start on the Republican side. Let me pull up some maps. So this is how it's looking right now. This is for the Republican side. You see Arizona, winner-take-all there -- that's 58. And then Utah is a caucus, and 40. At the moment -- I'll just show you an interesting poll. Arizona has Trump leading 31 percent, Cruz 19, Kasich 10 percent.

Here is what's interesting. Let's look at Utah. Ted Cruz gets 53 percent. How rare is it to see Donald Trump third in a state poll here? Kasich gets 29 percent. What do you make of what's going to happen tomorrow?

BOOTHE: It is interesting, and I think what we're seeing is the schism in the Republican Party is going to deepen tomorrow night because what we're seeing is Donald Trump has been up substantially in Arizona polls. We've seen that. He's also gotten endorsements from Sheriff Joe Arpaio, as well as Gov. Brewer. With that heavy stance toward strengthening our borders and his immigration stance, it's going to help him there.

But then, when you turn to Utah, as you mentioned, Ted Cruz, in the most recent polls, up so substantially. He's up by 53 percent. John Kasich is actually second in that state. And if you look at the more Mormon-heavy contests that we've seen so far in Idaho and Wyoming, Ted Cruz has done quite well there. Donald Trump has also questioned Mitt Romney's religion there.

[07:35:00] CAMEROTA: That's Right.

BOOTH: And so I think that could hurt him in Utah.

CAMEROTA: And we now know that Romney has come out, actually, for Ted Cruz because he says that he doesn't think that John Kasich stands a chance. So --

BOOTHE: And, Mike Lee has also come out to support Ted Cruz, as well.

CAMEROTA: OK. So, Paul, I want to ask you about this arrangement. We're reading reports that these conservative leaders have actually met and this is part of the stop Trump movement. They have pressured both the Kasich and the Cruz campaigns to basically lay off each other and to not compete in states where one of them is doing very well. In other words, they're asking John Kasich to not complete in Utah so that Ted Cruz can run away with it. Have you ever heard of arrangements like this between competing campaigns?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, no, and it won't work. Collusion doesn't work. This is competition. They ought to just have a fair race. I think Lisa makes a really good point about Utah. There's an interesting wrinkle in Utah's rules. It is not winner- take-all, but it is majority-take-all. If Cruz can pass that 50 percent threshold he'll get all 40 delegates out of Utah. That makes it really important.

That does means there's an incentive even to hold to down John Kasich's vote. But I don't think that kind of collusion ever works. I think they ought to just go and run their race and do the best they can. But I think the notion that party bosses can come in and control things is just nuts, and it's actually going to help Trump because Trump's voters -- one of the top issues they always mention is they want someone from outside the establishment. So as the establishment rallies to try to, I think, pathetically, oppose Trump, it's only going to make Trump stronger.

CAMEROTA: And, in fact, we have heard that from Trump supporters. They bristle at the idea of being told what to do, being told who they can vote for, and who they can't vote for. That's not working at the moment.

Let's look at the Democratic side. As you said, they have an additional Idaho caucus in there, so here's what's at stake. Seventy- five delegates in Arizona, Idaho 23, Utah 33. At the moment -- I'll just pull up an Arizona poll because Hillary Clinton has 50 percent -- more than twice of what Bernie Sanders does. Do you think that Bernie Sanders makes any inroads in these states tomorrow?

BOOTHE: I don't. I think for Bernie Sanders at this point it's not about winning, it's about principle. And what is problematic for Hillary Clinton is for her it is about winning and it doesn't seem to be about principle. And so, I think that why Bernie Sanders is hurting her in the sense that not only has she turned to the left on a lot of these key issues that could potentially come back to hurt her in a general election, but her authenticity is being called into question.

When you have a candidate like Bernie Sanders, who is so authentic, who even if you disagree with him, like me, he does come across as likeable. He comes across as real. You believe what he is saying and those are things that Hillary Clinton really lacks. And this is something that goes back to even 2008 during the ABC debate when she was questioned if she was likeable enough.

And so, I think he's brought a lot of those issues to the forefront. Also on the issue of trust, if you look at New Hampshire, for instance, voters -- the issue of trust was important to them -- went to Bernie Sanders 92 to 6 percent.

CAMEROTA: Paul, you want to take a crack at that?

BEGALA: Yes. Hillary's campaign has a delegate lead now, by my count, of 756 delegates. I don't think Barack Obama ever led Hillary by 150. There's 131 delegates at stake tomorrow in my party. Hillary will get her share. I think she looks very strong in Arizona, as you pointed out. I think Bernie looks very strong in Utah, and especially in Idaho where last time Hillary lost to Idaho by 60 points to Barack Obama.

So, Bernie will win his share, Hillary will win hers, but it won't change the race. Hillary's lead is, as an effective matter, insurmountable and I actually think the campaign helps her. I don't want Bernie to get out. I think Bernie does a lot of good. He raises important issues. He also draws press attention to the Democrats, thank God, so we can compete with the Trump apocalypse over on the other side. And, it helps sharpen Hillary. She's a much better candidate, actually, Lisa, because of the challenge that Bernie is offering here.

CAMEROTA: All right, there you go. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Paul, Lisa, thanks so much for being here.

BOOTHE: Thanks for having us.

CAMEROTA: Great to have you.

BEGALA: Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Michaela --

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Historic time in Cuba, and also plenty of criticism from Cuban-Americans about normalizing ties with Cuba. We're talking to a prominent voice, next. Former RNC chairman, Mel Martinez, joins us live. NEW DAY returns live from Cuba, next.

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[07:43:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: It is a historic visit, but it's also highly controversial. Was it the right move for President Barack Obama to come to Cuba? Many here will say we need change and that this was something we never thought would happen, seeing a U.S. president on Cuban soil, so that's good. But, many others say no, you're rewarding an oppressive regime in the Castros, and until they're gone there can be no real change.

As somebody who argues that very strenuously and knows this situation, not just in his head but in his heart, it's former senator from Florida, Mel Martinez, and he joins us this morning. Senator, can you hear me?

MEL MARTINEZ (R), FORMER FLORIDA SENATOR: I can. Good morning, Chris.

CUOMO: What do you want to let people know about what life is like for your family, for the people you know, and for Cubans in general, and why that makes you against President Obama coming down here?

MARTINEZ: Well, look, I commend you for the fact that you've covered the repression and the terrible conditions that Cubans live in because that is the reality of the Cuban people. It is blamed, a lot of times, on the trade sanctions that the United States imposed on Cuba, but the origin of those comes from the appropriation of U.S. properties without compensation. And then it goes on and on, and the difficult relationship between the two countries.

But I'm sort of on the side of Barack Obama -- President Obama -- back in December, who said I won't go to Cuba until the human rights conditions there improve. You know, look, I was in the cabinet of a president, I've flown on that wonderful airplane that landed there. That's the airport from which I left as a 15-year-old child, alone, in 1962.

[07:45:00] I always dreamed of that plane returning to Cuba, but I always thought that it would happen under different conditions when there was a president to welcome a Cuban president that would meet him at the airport, by the way, and show him that kind of respect. But also, who would have been elected by the Cuban people and who would respect their human rights.

So, a presidential visit, to me, is a reward. It's an action that you take as in President Obama's going to visit President Macri in Argentina -- his next stop on this trip. That's a president that was democratically elected, who is making changes, who wants friendship with the U.S., and the Cuban situation is a completely different story. It's one of repression, oppression after 50 some years of nothing but that for the Cuban people.

So, my focus is on what's good for the Cuban people. I would have hoped the president would have held out until Cuba shows some reciprocity to all that has happened over the last 14 months. It's been completely one-sided and a one-way street, and that's what I object to.

CUOMO: So, Senator, on the other side of the thinking you have -- but the embargo hasn't worked. Isolating them hasn't worked. The United States works with a lot of bad people around the world in an effort to create a catalyst for change and that coming here, as you know, even made the cover of Granma, the state-run newspaper this morning -- that a lot of Cubans didn't believe this would happen and the symbolism is very clear. Maybe the United States government isn't the evil empire they've been taught to believe. Isn't there some value in that?

MARTINEZ: Well, I really don't think the Cuban people believe the United States to be an evil empire. I think most of them want to come here. The sad news this past couple of days of eight people dying trying to cross to the United States. The fact is that's where people want to go.

The yuma (ph) in the slang that they use there is referring to the desire of so many to leave -- to come to the U.S. So, it's not really viewed as an enemy by the Cuban people. It has been made an enemy by the Cuban government over many years, frankly, in ways that have been incredibly dangerous like --

CUOMO: Right.

MARTINEZ: -- continuing to help North Korea to smuggle arms. I mean, there's so many issues that are not in the past, like the missiles in Cuba and might use, but issues that continue to this day. Support for terrorists -- all kinds of issues. Harboring criminals that are fugitives of U.S. justice. All of these issues remain on the table and I would have just held out a presidential visit, agreeing with President Obama in December -- not President Obama in January or February.

CUOMO: And, when you look at this -- the argument of well, compare to this Iraq, compare this to all these places in North Africa and other places in the world where the U.S. has reached out to have diplomacy, even though they're incredibly oppressive regimes. Why not try it in Cuba?

MARTINEZ: Well, you know, the president has not made a visit to Iran, so I almost bifurcate a little bit the difference betweensome opening, hopefully with some reciprocity, which hasn't been received, but also measuring steps so that you encourage change within Cuba. In other words, use a presidential visit as a chip -- as something that would be done in exchange for some improvement in the human rights condition.

What an affront to the presidential visit that the ladies in white simple little peaceful march yesterday had to be interrupted by the thuggery of the Cuban oppressive forces. What is so dangerous about these women marching, with palms in their hands after going to Sunday mass, down a street? There's no harm in that. And even on a Sunday when the President of the United States is arriving to continue to do that shows incredible arrogance and, frankly, tremendous disdain towards the United States and what it represents.

CUOMO: Well, Sen. Martinez, you lived this story yourself. You know it very well, and obviously while you doubt this move, everybody wants the same thing -- to see something good come out of this situation for the Cuban people. That's why we're here, and Iappreciateyour perspective this morning on NEW DAY, as always, sir. MARTINEZ: And, Chris, let me be sure and say that I do not doubt the motives of the president and others who believe that there's a different approach that maybe would yield a better result. I don't doubt their motives, I just think they're wrong.

CUOMO: Appreciate the clarification, Senator. Again, thank you very much -- Mel Martinez. All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Republicans are continuing to meet and think on a very high level about what to do about Donald Trump and the word they're using is block, when it comes to the nomination. Is that fair? Is that right? Is that possible? We're going to go through the options and the strategies, and the rightful path to a nomination ahead.

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[07:54:00] PEREIRA: The anti-Trump movement within the Republican Party taking on new urgency. Republican leaders trying to engineer strategies to block Donald Trump's path to the nomination. We're going to look at these strategies with Peter Beinart. He is CNN political commentator and associate professor of City University of New York. Happy Monday to you, professor.

So, let's talk about the delegates right now because we know at this point it really is a big numbers game. You want to hit that delegate count number for me? Good man. Oh, now it's not working.

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Uh, oh.

PEREIRA: Really? There we go.

BEINART: There it goes.

PEREIRA: And if we know the number that they're looking to get is 1,237, the numbers are pretty much in favor of Donald Trump. Thinks are looking good for him. But if we start looking at -- let me go back to this. I think somebody else is playing with my magic box back there. But we know we have a primary coming up in Wisconsin April 5th. This is a big deal. A lot of eyes are on this one.

BEINART: Right. This is important because after tomorrow the calendar really slows down.

PEREIRA: It does. The pace has been a bit hectic up until now.

BEINART: Right, and there's going to be a long period -- almost a month -- in which there are going to be very few states voting.

PEREIRA: Yes.

BEINART: The biggest one during that open period is going to be Wisconsin, so it's going to get a lot more attention than it might otherwise get and the anti-Trump forces are putting in a lot of money. One report, $2 million --

PEREIRA: Two million dollars. BEINART: -- in an effort to really try to stop Trump's momentum there because if they can't, the states that come afterwards in the northeast look like they could be very good states for him.

[07:55:00] PEREIRA: All right. Now, one that's coming -- this is June 7th -- Montana primary. It's one of the few ones left that winner takes all.

BEINART: Right, and this is an area where Cruz is considered to be stronger.

PEREIRA: Right.

BEINART: He's generally done better in the west. Again, Cruz has been weaker in states that don't have a lot of evangelical Christians. States where the Republican primary electorate look more moderate, like New York and Pennsylvania. So, Cruz is going to hang close to Trump. He really needs to do well in states like Montana.

PEREIRA: OK, another one on June 7th is South Dakota. Twenty-nine delegates at stake there, June 7th. And, again, this is only about six weeks away until the convention. It's kind of cutting it close with some of these -- another one to watch.

BEINART: Right. I don't think many people that Cruz could overtake Trump. What Cruz needs to try to do is stay close enough to Trump and make sure Trump doesn't get that 1,237, and hope that people will start to flock with him at the convention.

PEREIRA: And then there's this idea that there might be a split map scenario. Kasich focuses on the east coast, Cruz focuses on the west coast. Tell us a little bit more about how that negotiating goes.

BEINART: Right. So the idea is that Kasich is stronger in the northeast where the Republican elect a little bit more moderate. Cruz tends to be stronger in the west. So the idea was that each of them would battle Donald Trump --

PEREIRA: Focus on your strengths.

BEINART: -- in one place. The problem, of course, is that -- and we've seen this throughout the Republican presidential campaign -- is that this coordination, although some people want it to happen -- each candidate really tends to be out for themselves. So, for instance, Kasich has been running ads in Utah, a state where Cruz is hoping to beat Trump, and the Cruz people are very unhappy about that.

PEREIRA: OK, now failing that strategy, take it to the convention, right? Because then you know you've got these uncommitted delegates, you focus on them, you try to lure them to the other side. Tell us how that -- what all entails that in terms of the conversations that are happening in the hallways?

BEINART: Well, the hope of the anti-Trump force is that Trump does not get to 1,237 on the first ballot.

PEREIRA: Right.

BEINART: That means that on the second ballot some people become uncommitted and they could go to another candidate. What makes things even more intriguing is that some of the Trump delegates -- the people who are pledged to vote for Trump on the first ballot themselves could defect from Trump in the second ballot.

We're just now starting to see who theseactual delegates are. There's an effort to create what are being called double agents, which is essentially -- yes, very, very exciting stuff. Essentially people who are pledged to Trump. They have to vote for him on the first ballot, but they're not really Trump people. They are people close to the Republican establishment, and in a second ballot they might defect from Trump.

PEREIRA: Wow, and that's when it gets really fascinating. OK, and then, last but not least, the third strategy is the idea of another nominee altogether. We know these are some of the names that they're looking at. Tom Coburn, former Oklahoma senator; Rick Perry, a former Texas governor who had his own run, as well. Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan, two other names that are being bandied around. We know that Paul Ryan has outright said not interested, not going to happen.

BEINART: Yes, Paul Ryan has a good, very important job and this is really a kamikaze mission. Nobody really thinks that this third party candidate could actually win the presidency.

PEREIRA: This is the least viable strategy?

BEINART: I think the reason that people like this strategy is it gives Republican primary voters a reason to turn out. Why is that important? Because they are terrifiedabout losing the Senate and losing a lot in the House because Republicans stay at home. At least this way you give the Republicans a reason to go out and they vote for the Republican Senatorial candidates which helps the Republicans down- ballot.

PEREIRA: Great to have you with us. Thank you so much, professor. We appreciate it.

BEINART: Thank you.

PEREIRA: Following a whole lot of news today. President Obama set to meet with Cuba's leader on his historic trip to Havana. Let's get right to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We don't condone violence.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are better in America when we're together.

TRUMP: Security at the arena -- the police were a little bit lax.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump continues that path of spreading hatred.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do not believe that real change is going to come from a candidate like Sec. Clinton.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For all of our challenges, I've never had more faith in our future.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For the first time ever, Air Force One has landed in Cuba.

CUOMO: Not since Calvin Coolidge has a U.S. president been on Cuban soil.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's way past time for us to be here in Cuba and be friends.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The dramatic capture of the so-called eighth Paris attacker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 26-year-old was captured after a gunfight with Belgian authorities.

PEREIRA: A Belgian official revealing that Abdeslam was apparently ready to launch another attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota, and Michaela Pereira.

CUOMO: Buenos dias. Welcome to your new day. It is Monday, March 21st, 8:00 now in the east. We are live in Havana, Cuba because history has been made, my friends. President Obama's stepping onto the ground in Cuba -- that has not happened since the revolution. Yes, you'll hear 88 years. Yes, you'll hear Calvin Coolidge, 1928.