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Donald Trump Trailing in Polls in Wisconsin; Amtrak Train Derails in Pennsylvania; Interview with Steve Forbes; Can Trump Rebound From Difficult Campaign Week?; Clinton And Sanders Spar Over Debates. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired April 04, 2016 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:02] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: And if he leaves that state empty handed tomorrow night, the odds of a contested convention up, up, up, my friend.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump, he does face an uphill battle in Wisconsin. He is now calling on the Republican Party to force John Kasich out of the race. He wants to see a two-man race, Donald Trump does, between himself and Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz actually likes that idea. He is running a new attack ad against John Kasich and sending out mailers, as well. CNN is all over the race this morning. Let's begin with Jason Carroll in Wisconsin. Good morning, Jason.

JASON CARROLL, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you. Trump reminding crowds over the weekend that he is an entrepreneur and he is not accustomed to being asked questions about things like NATO or abortion. He said he's had rough weeks before and he has come back from those rough weeks in the past. He says he is going to do it again tomorrow.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: GOP candidates making their final sprint to Wisconsin's primary tomorrow, barnstorming the battle ground state. Trump admitting to having a rough week leading up to primary day after a slew of missteps in his campaign.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I took that answer and I didn't like it because I think a lot of people didn't understand it.

CARROLL: At a town hall Sunday the frontrunner still struggling to articulate his shifting stance on abortion after saying that if abortion were outlawed women who get the procedure should be punished.

TRUMP: Women go through a lot. They go through a tremendous punishment of themselves. And I didn't like because I wasn't sure people would understand it. So I clarified it. But it was just a clarification and I think it was well accepted.

CARROLL: In a move to stem disapproval from women voters, Trump also saying he regrets re-tweeting a mean-spirited photo of Ted Cruz's wife. But Cruz, who leads Trump in Wisconsin, says he is over it.

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It has gotten to the point where I could not care less about Donald Trump.

(APPLAUSE)

CARROLL: Fuelling the firestorm Trump still standing by his campaign manager facing battery charges for an alleged assault on a reporter. The billionaire fighting to make last minute gains, stayed with an aggressive anti-Trump. Trump taking aim at rivals Cruz.

TRUMP: He is a cheater. He is a cheater. He is a dirty, rotten cheat. Remember that.

CARROLL: And John Kasich.

TRUMP: Everyone says he is such a nice guy. He is not a nice guy. He is a nasty guy, you want to know the truth.

CARROLL: Trump doubling down on calls for the Ohio governor to leave the race, arguing that Kasich is taking his votes and has no chance of winning the nomination.

TRUMP: The problem is he is in the way of me, not Cruz. He hurts me more than he hurts Cruz.

CARROLL: Another lingering issue, controversy over Trump's suggestion Japan and South Korea develop nuclear weapons to protect themselves.

GOV. JOHN KASICH, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You don't go running around talking about using nuclear weapons, period, end of story.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: And Trump telling his supporters that no one has more respect for than he does. He also says that he's at first saying that he's going to great with women but then telling reporters later that his comments could actually hurt him with female voters. Michaela?

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Jason, thanks for that. Meanwhile to the Democrats. Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton duking it out over when they will debate in New York. All of this as Sanders is narrowing ahead of Clinton in tomorrow's battleground primary in Wisconsin. How would a loss there impact the Clinton campaign? Our Chris Frates is in Wisconsin with more for us this morning.

CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Michaela. So this debate over debates really exploded on the campaign trail this weekend, with a Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton campaigns both blaming the other for refusing to lockdown a day to debate in the empire state.

And this sounds a little Dr. Seussian, so let's go through it. The Clinton campaign saying they offered three different debates to debate Bernie Sanders in New York. Sanders rejected all three of those debates. The Sanders people saying, hold on, wait a minute here, those dates didn't work. In fact one of those proposed dates was tonight which of course is also the NCAA men's basketball final. The Sanders people saying people are going to want to watch basketball, not a presidential debate.

One of the other proposed dates was April 14th. The Sanders folks saying we are doing a huge rally in New York City that night. We're expecting 10,000 to 20,000 people. So we're a little busy, thanks anyway. And they put out their own set of dates that they are proposing as well. But the campaign slugged it out, but Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, they were a little more circumspect.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNIE SANDERS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm confident we will work out a time that is good for both of our schedules and when large numbers of people will be watching.

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm confident that there will be. But I'm not the one negotiating it. That is going on between our campaigns. And I do know my campaign has been really trying to get a time that Senator Sanders campaign would agree with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRATES: So there you have Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders both using the same word, that they are confident that there will be a New York debate.

[08:05:03] And Jeff Weaver, the campaign manager for Bernie Sanders, telling me he thinks this will get settled soon.

But why is it important? You have to look at the math. New York has 250 delegates, give or take, up for grabs on April 19th. That's second only to California. So Bernie Sanders looking to upset Hillary Clinton in her home state. He needs 75 percent of the delegates left to clinch a nomination, Hillary Clinton needs 35 percent. And while he is expected to do well here in Wisconsin, tomorrow there is only 86 delegates up for grabs. So he wants to make a big splash in New York. And that that is why when and where this debate happens will be a big deal, John.

BERMAN: All right, Chris Frates for us in Wisconsin. Thanks so much, Chris.

Amtrak is now running limited service between Philadelphia and Wilmington, Delaware. This has federal investigators look into what caused a train to slam into a backhoe near Philadelphia and derail. It killed the backhoe operator and supervisor. CNN's Sara Ganim is live at the scene in Chester, Pennsylvania. Sara, good morning. What is the latest there?

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John. Investigators here looking at scheduling and human error as potential factors in what caused this deadly crash on these train tracks behind me as the main question lingers -- how did an Amtrak train and Amtrak construction workers both not know they were on a path to collision?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GANIM: A frightening moment on board this Amtrak train just before 8:00 a.m. Sunday morning when it smashed into a piece of heavy equipment on the tracks causing the engine to derail. The train was en route from New York to Savannah, Georgia, hitting a backhoe and crashing just south of Philadelphia. Two Amtrak workers were killed and more than 30 people injured in the collision, passengers describing the harrowing ordeal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I woke up to being thrown into the seat in front of me. And the window got blown out right beside me. And yes, there was a fireball. It was kind of a frightening few seconds. We didn't know what to do.

LINTON HOLMES, AMTRAK PASSENGER: We got off track and it was like a big explosion. And then it was a fire, and then the windows burst out. Some people were cut up.

GANIM: The NTSB is now investigating looking into whether a scheduling error was a factor.

RYAN FRIGO, NTSB INVESTIGATOR: We will be looking at mechanical operations, signal, track, human performance, and survival factors.

GANIM: The derailment was the first of three incidents for Amtrak on Sunday. At about 3:00 p.m. a train struck a vehicle in Illinois, killing the 28-year-old driver. And then around 7:30 another accident when a train struck and injured a pedestrian in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. The incidents come nearly a year after the deadly derailment in Philadelphia when eight people were killed and 200 injured due to speed on a curved section of track. As for yesterday's crash outside of Philly, the NTSB says it is still too early to know exactly what happened.

FRIGO: As of now we have recovered the event data recorder, the forward facing video, and the inward facing video from the locomotive to send to our laboratory in Washington D.C.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GANIM: One passenger on that train told CNN he knew something was wrong even before the impact. They could see a cloud of dust outside of the window and it also felt like they were riding on gravel he said. Of course this is the kind of account that investigators will want to hear. Noteworthy this morning, John, is that this stretch is between Philadelphia and Wilmington. There are trains running here on some sort of delay. But this is very important that they are running this morning. We are on the northeast corridor track, 750,000 people run the route somewhere between Boston and Washington, D.C. each day. This caused significant delays on Sunday which was a busy day for Amtrak. But this morning things are running hopefully on time, John.

BERMAN: Sara Ganim for us in Chester, Pennsylvania. Sara, thanks so much.

CUOMO: Now, Steve Forbes was on board that Amtrak train when it crashed. He is here to tell us more about it and of course talk some politics as well. His latest book is called "Reviving America." Forbes is chairman and editor and chief of Forbes Media. It is good to see you well, sir, this morning. Thank you for joining us.

You say you are OK, but this is not an easy experience to live through. Tell us about it.

STEVE FORBES, CHAIRMAN AND EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, FORBES MEDIA: Of course, our hearts go out to the families of those two construction workers who were killed and those who were injured in the backhoe. We were in the last passenger car, so we didn't get the hit that the first two cars did. But clearly something was wrong. There appeared to be smoke. Suddenly you were stopping. This is not normally slow down going around a curve or something. And it was a matter of nanoseconds but you felt that the train was coming to a screeching halt, then it eased up a little bit, then another streak. It was like a driver hitting the brake and then easing up and then hitting the brake, all in a matter of a couple of seconds.

[08:10:03] So in our car the coffee was flying everywhere, we knew something had gone wrong. And there was a smell of smoke, so the first thought is there is a fire. That went away quickly and we knew we were just going to have to sit and wait and get told what was happening. We didn't hear anything for at least a half hour. And so we were all speculating, the brakes go out, what happened. There were rumors starting to fly around.

Finally responders came on and asked if anyone was injured. And fortunately in our car no one was injured. And then we heard and we got off the train finally after about 45 minutes, the responders were there and doing a very good job. We went across the track and through the woods and then to the local church. They had a gymnasium there. But you can see when you got off the train that there was a derailment in those first two cars, first one especially was badly hit. And amazing when you look at that car there weren't even more injuries.

BERMAN: What amazes me is that can happen in the first two cars, you can be in the last, and while you were shaken and spilled coffee, you were still all OK.

FORBES: Yes. And so that's why some people say you should sit in the back and not the front of a train. You can't calculate these things.

BERMAN: You guys were sitting in the car for 25, 30 minutes. What's going on there? Were people trying to get out?

FORBES: No. We knew don't try to get off a train, especially if there's not a fire, don't try to get off the train when there might be live wires around or something like that. So people were some veteran riders. And that is why they were speculating something happened to the brake system or this and that. But we knew just sit tight and don't try to do anything and eventually we will get word.

CUOMO: The reason you had to sit there so long figuring it out is you believe the P.A. system went out with the rest of the power to the train so they weren't able to have overhead communications. But that doesn't relieve your curiosity about why it took that long to find out what was going on.

FORBES: No. And since obviously no one expected this they are all concerned about those who are injured in the front of the cars and focused on that. But I think it gets to what kind of communication system they have internally. Normally you think in this day and age they would have a backup system if the electricity goes down. You would say something like stay on the train. We knew that already, but it is nice to hear that somebody is overseeing the thing.

And in terms of how you respond, planes, you know, the crew is trained. You do this, you do that depending on what part of the plane you're in. Here I'm not sure they have that kind of precise training what to do in various cars since especially with a train there is such a difference in impact depending on where you are at.

BERMAN: Look, we are glad you are OK. Obviously our heart goes out to those people who were injured and the two workers who died and their families. But again, thanks for being here to tell us their part of the story.

Let's switch gears to politics right now. Donald Trump, Ted Cruz in a heated battle for the Republican nomination, Wisconsin primary tomorrow. A lot of people looking back at last week saying it was Donald Trump's worst week ever of this campaign. We won't make you judge whether it was the worst week ever, but it wasn't good for him. The question is, how does he recover, and is he capable of it?

FORBES: Well, this is where really both Cruz and Trump -- let's say the polls are right. After Michigan in the Democratic primary you always have to have the caveat. Let's say polls are right that Cruz wins Wisconsin, it's the first time outside of the southwest southeast that he has won. So can he bring up his game for New York, Pennsylvania, and these northeastern states? Which means he has to focus far more on message. If it's about the messenger, he's in trouble. If he focuses on the message like that flat tax, lead with that, and lead with issues.

BERMAN: I'm shocked you brought up the flat tax.

FORBES: I know, it's Monday and so these things happen. But he has a good flat tax plan out there. So you've got to lead with an issue. So you're a messenger for issues on how to get the economy moving, reform health care. Donald Trump has had a terrible week. The shock about the abortion answer was not just the answer. But he's been in this race for 10 months. You know especially in the Republican primary you better have that answer on abortion down one, two, three, and never vary from it. And the fact that he wasn't prepared for it when he went on with Chris Matthews was the shocker.

CUOMO: He says it was a clarification and people are OK with how he clarified it, it's not an issue. You don't but it?

FORBES: You don't have a clarification 10 month into a race on an issue like abortion, especially in a Republican race. You have that down. You know you are going to get hit with it both sides, so you better be prepared for it. So that was shocking that he wasn't prepared for it.

CUOMO: So what does it mean to you?

FORBES: What it means is he got to -- Ted Cruz on his own has to step up his game. Donald Trump has to step up his game. He has been very good at relying on his gut and he has defied all expectations. But when you start throwing out you want South Korea and Japan to have nuclear weapons, you just don't do that offhand. That is part of a major foreign policy speech that indicates to people you thought this thing out. You're not just tossing it off. You're past the toss off stage now.

You've got to get this, he did with AIPAC. You have to do more of those speeches where people feel you are taking this thing seriously because now we're at a stage where you just can't do a sound bite. You have got to get substance out there.

BERMAN: You are suggesting that he use something that we haven't seen before from Donald Trump, which would be discipline which would be discretion. You have known him for a long time, three decades, in the business world here in New York City. Is he capable of changing? Is he capable of pivoting?

FORBES: That's what people want to see. Obviously, he has discipline. You don't get buildings up by being ill disciplined. On the campaign trail, the part of his initial charm was he would toss these things off in a very politically incorrect way and people found that refreshing.

OK, that's going to continue but on major issues like what you do with NATO especially with Russia in aggressive mood especially with China and Asia in an aggressive mood to toss off these things like you are talking about how to pave streets in Madison, Wisconsin, very different thing.

He did that in AIPAC. He had the teleprompter there. He has to do more of that to show people he can take it to the next level.

BERMAN: Do you ever see yourself supporting Donald Trump?

FORBERS: Sure if he -- or the Republican nominee whoever it is. They show leadership. It's part of leadership. The circumstance change. Can you keep your core and change with it? Reagan was a master of that.

So can Trump take it and say here are serious issues. I'm giving serious addresses on it. I have people around me. So it is not just a tossup.

CUOMO: If he stays the way he is, though, which he might, because he believes it works for him. Would he get your vote?

FORBES: I think he wouldn't get the nomination. I think it is the point now where there are so many people in the party. You see what Cruz has been good at in terms of making sure you know who the delegates are going into that hall in Cleveland. If Trump is not at the 1,237, more than 100 off of it, he won't get the nomination. If he is going to get these people who may be leaning towards him, paper quoted a woman who went to an events in Wisconsin she said he didn't seem so bad I think I can vote for him.

CUOMO: A high bar being established. He didn't seem so bad.

FORBES: He has his core voters, but the people who may be leaning towards him like somebody kicking things around they need to be persuaded. That is what he has to do and it is fluid enough where he can still do it. After this week I hope it would be a wakeup call to him and his campaign. Got to do that or you are not going to get the 1,237.

CUOMO: Steve Forbes, appreciate you being here to talk politics and being in one place and keeping attention on what happened to those not so fortunate on that Amtrak train.

FORBES: Thank you.

CUOMO: Absolutely -- Mich.

PEREIRA: All right, some other headlines for you now. Fierce denials and outrage pouring in from top officials around the world to leak documents alleging secret offshore companies were created to hide billions of dollars.

Millions of documents reportedly originated from a Panama law firm and point to a clandestine network involving associates of Russian President Vladimir Putin and at least one member of FIFA.

CNN has not been able to independently verify reports and is seeking comment from those that have been identified in the reports.

BERMAN: CNN's political coverage popping up on "Saturday Night Live." The latest episode kicked off with a spoof between Kate Baldwin and Donald Trump supporter, Scotty Hughes. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a woman, how can you keep depending Mr. Trump? He retweeted a sexist unflattering photo of Ted Cruz's wife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So actually that was an accident because Donald's hands are just so big he can't see every little tweet his fingers retweet. Of course, Donald loves women. He is a father to a woman.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We actually have a clip of Donald talking about his daughter from a rally this morning. Let's watch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is so smart, so talented and what a rack.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, OK. So that was beautiful. You're just trying to work it, but is it worth it? You put his thing down, flipped it and reversed it. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Scotty Hughes said she has a great sense of humor about the spoof but did call it the ultimate sexism for "Saturday Night Live" to attack her for being outspoken.

PEREIRA: You want to know what sexy is?

BERMAN: Just look in the mirror.

CUOMO: Close my friend.

PEREIRA: This is what happened.

CUOMO: There he is. What is the thing on the bottom?

[08:20:06]PEREIRA: So apparently, Berman, you take to growing a full on beard when you're on vacation, right? What happened here?

BERMAN: It is Red Sox opening day. That is a b.

PEREIRA: For Berman?

BERMAN: For Berman and for Boston.

PEREIRA: Your boys wanted you to do this?

BERMAN: They wanted me to shave their initials into my face, but that would be a lot of letters so I went to b, which you know stands for Berman and Boston.

CUOMO: Your dedication to team, to country, anything that matters did not mean enough for you to keep the beard.

BERMAN: I offered to shave CNN into it. I tried but they said no.

CUOMO: Tattoo would work, though.

BERMAN: Neck tattoo.

PEREIRA: That's a good look for you.

CUOMO: I can't mock him about it.

All right, Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders debating when to hold their next debate. That's what it has come to. Straight ahead, we are going to speak to a member of Clinton's inner circle, who is accusing the Sanders campaign of fuelling this debate debacle.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People of New York deserve to hear us discussing the important issues facing that state and facing the country. I suspect it will work out. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: In less than 24 hours, voters head to the polls in Wisconsin, but you heard it right there. What is going on in the campaign right now? Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton locked in one of the most high-minded discussions that can take place in a campaign, a debate over debates.

[08:25:09]Joining us now to discuss is Karen Finney, senior spokesperson for the Clinton campaign and also the campaign senior adviser for communications and political outreach.

Karen, let's clear this up right now. I had Tad Divine on a few moments ago. I proposed to him the date that your campaign has put out, April 4th, 14th and 15th.

He said they don't work out for Bernie Sanders, but counter proposed with 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th. So do any of those work out OK for you?

KAREN FINNEY, SENIOR SPOKESPERSON, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: You know, we actually have said the 14th, which is so interesting that the Sanders campaign is now saying it doesn't work because that was one of the original dates that they suggested back in February.

So we thought we were coming back to them with what they wanted here. So we've said 14th or 15th. I guess, there is some issue for the Sanders campaign about they want to do a rally and I guess, they don't want to do both.

Hillary Clinton has done both on the same day. I think Senator Sanders has, too. So I don't know. We will see what happens. The conversation is still ongoing.

We think the 14th and the 15th looks like we may have a national cable partner where I am right now. We may have local partners. So you know, a lot of pieces are coming together quite nicely for the 14th. So I guess, we will have to wait and see.

BERMAN: So you're drawing the line there, the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th out. No way.

FINNEY: You know, again, I think the 14th and 15th is what we would prefer. I'm not actually part of the direct conversation so I just can tell you kind of the latest as I know it.

BERMAN: The voters I think care zero percent about these dates. I think they just want see these debates. I love it when campaigns delve into this.

I want to talk about Wisconsin right now. I want to look at the latest polls right there, Bernie Sanders leading Hillary Clinton 48 percent to 43 percent. That's the latest Fox Business poll. Why is Hillary Clinton losing in Wisconsin?

FINNEY: Well, look, again, time and again I think we have had this conversation. We always knew it was going to be tight. I think Wisconsin to some degree favors Senator Sanders. It is going to be close. Don't count us out yet.

We have a great team on the ground in Wisconsin. You had President Clinton and Hillary there over the weekend. So we feel good that we are going to keep working hard right down until the polls close and then we move on to New York and other states.

I think the thing that we are looking at, though, here is remember Senator Sanders has to win over 50 percent, 57 percent of all the remaining states in order to challenge the math, if you will.

So again, I think we will do quite well, but I don't think it will change the dynamic of the race and that we will continue to have more pledged delegates.

We'll continue to have -- you know, Hillary right now has 2.5 million more votes than Senator Sanders about a million more than Donald Trump. I don't think those fundamentals will change very much after Tuesday.

BERMAN: Is it just an issue of math or is there now an issue of message, as well? Because over the last few days there are those who have said Hillary Clinton has become visibly frustrated with the presence of Bernie Sanders and his supporters in this campaign.

I want to play a little sound of the secretary of state right here. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do not. I have money from people who work for fossil fuel companies. I am so sick of the Sanders campaign lying about this. I'm sick of it.

SANDERS: Well, Secretary Clinton owes us an apology. We were not lying. We were telling the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That wasn't quite the sound I was thinking about, but that brought up the issue of fossil fuels. Hillary Clinton says not really true. The "Washington Post" did a fact check and found that there is some money like $300,000 that Bernie Sanders accepted, $50,000 roughly by their accounting. It is some money, yes?

FINNEY: Well, but here's the thing, the charge is not some money. The charge has been that she is beholden to the industry. He has made a lot of these sweeping charges about Secretary Clinton and various aspects of her record and they are just not true.

Not just the "Washington Post" that did a fact check, the "New York Times" has done one. I mean, there have been several actually over the weekend that looked at this and said it just doesn't hold water. It's just not true.

First of all, as you know corporations can't actually donate to campaigns. So either no campaign is taking money from the industry.

BERMAN: Individuals who work in the industry is what --

FINNEY: But here is the thing -- OK, that is exactly my point. If we are taking money from people who work in the industry and Senator Sanders is taking money from people who work in the industry, that is a double standard if you are going to say it is not OK for the people who work in the industry to support Secretary Clinton, but it's OK to support Senator Sanders.