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Report: Trump Has 'Arsenal' of FOX News Secrets; GOP Rivals Battle for Wisconsin; Clinton & Sanders Neck and Neck in Wisconsin; Grassley to Meet with Supreme Court Nominee; Villanova Wins National Title on Buzzer Beater. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired April 05, 2016 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

GABE SHERMAN: And then when it was useful for him on the debate stage, he then said that to attack Hillary Clinton. He said, "Of course I paid them. I'm not a politician." That made the Clintons look bad. But Donald Trump used it when it served his interests.

[07:00:12] BERMAN: Gabe Sherman, a lot in that article. Thanks so much for being with us.

SHERMAN: Great. Thank you.

BERMAN: Good to see you.

CUOMO: Reminds me of that time you started that brawl in Des Moines, Iowa, and I had to pull you out of there.

BERMAN: Donald Trump come -- came and made peace.

CUOMO: Good thing we had him.

We have a lot of news for you this morning. And political intrigue on the eve of the Wisconsin primary. Voting is going to start very soon. Let's get to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we do well here, folks, it's over.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you lose 49 states, you ain't going to be the Republican nominee.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm not getting out. Why would I get out?

TRUMP: I call them the leftovers.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They are selling Americans short.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Don't tell them this, we're on our way to the White House.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Republican Senator Chuck Grassley will meet Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland but won't make any promises.

SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R-IA), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIAL COMMITTEE: It ought to go over to a new president. Let the people have a voice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's unprecedented to not give this nominee a hearing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The greatest college basketball national championship game ever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is when Chris Jenkins became a hero.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Wow.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CUOMO: One for the history books. So important we talk over James Earl Jones about it.

Good morning. Welcome back to your NEW DAY. Alisyn is off. J.B. is with me and Mick. And up first, Wisconsin voters are ready to chart a new course in the 2016 race. This is big what happens. The voting starts soon. Big results tonight. Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, big tests in this Wisconsin contest.

Senator Ted Cruz hoping that this delegate rush, if he can get this, could change the calculus of this race. There's only one thing that's really uniting Cruz and Trump right now, and those are calls to get Governor John Kasich to drop out. I'm laughing because the governor says not happening.

BERMAN: No. Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, they're running pretty close in Wisconsin, Sanders leading in most polls there. The Democrats, though, have finally agreed to a big debate ahead of the New York primary, a big CNN debate. That will be huge.

We're going to start, though, on this issue of Wisconsin, which could be a troubling day for both frontrunners. CNN all over primary coverage. We're going to start with CNN's Phil Mattingly -- Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, for Ted Cruz and pretty much anybody who wants to stop Donald Trump, this is a big day. Cruz is up double digits in a series of polls in the state. Trump coming off a week that could be generously called rough. And Wisconsin is an electorate that is coming off three contentious governor's races in four years. So they know a thing or two about politics. Yet, Donald Trump has proven over and over again this primary season, writing him off, probably not the brightest idea.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TRUMP: Thank you, Wisconsin. I love you. Go out and vote. I love you. MATTINGLY: The final 24-hour blitz. The Republican candidates

exchanging insults and fighting for votes ahead of a primary that could reshape the Republican race.

TRUMP: I've never, ever met anybody that lied like him.

CRUZ: His security blanket is to insult people.

KASICH: I think they're becoming hysterical.

MATTINGLY: Donald Trump on damage control after the worst week of his campaign.

TRUMP: Every week, "Tt's the end of Trump." Then they walk in, "Sir, I don't know what happened, but your poll numbers just went through the roof."

MATTINGLY: Rolling out female supporters and his wife, Melania, in a desperate bid to improve his standing with women.

MELANIA TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP'S WIFE: No matter who you are, a man or a woman, he treats everyone equal.

MATTINGLY: Senator Ted Cruz looking to capitalize on Trump's weakness.

CRUZ: I know that Donald, it makes him feel really tough. It makes him feel like a very, very big man to threaten people. In particular, he seems to have a problem with strong women.

MATTINGLY: And once again denying tabloid reports accusing him of cheating on his wife.

CRUZ: That attack was complete and utter garbage. It was complete lies. And it came from Donald Trump and his henchmen.

MATTINGLY: Trump and Cruz both calling for Republican rival John Kasich to drop out of the race.

TRUMP: He's 1 in 30. He ought to get the hell out. Honestly.

CRUZ: If you lose 49 states, you ain't going to be the Republican nominee.

MATTINGLY: A proposal that Kasich flat-out rejected.

KASICH: He said, "He needs to get out because he's getting my votes. And I want to have my votes. He's -- this is not fair!" I thought we got out of the sandbox years ago.

MATTINGLY: The Ohio governor returning fire, accusing Ted Cruz of playing dirty politics in response to a series of attack ads that the Cruz campaign rolled out this weekend.

KASICH: He smeared Ben Carson. He smeared Marco Rubio. He smeared Donald Trump. And now he's smearing me. Don't push me around. If you think you can push me around and get away with it, you're wrong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[07:05:02] MATTINGLY: Now, up to this point, Donald Trump's campaign has maintained that they do have a clear pathway to lock up the nomination before the convention. That's what tonight is really all about. A big and, at this point, surprising performance by Trump in Wisconsin, that would keep that pathway to 1,237 delegates open.

If Cruz sweeps all 42 delegates to Wisconsin, those pitched battles for delegate allegiance at the state level, the things we've seen play out over the last couple of weeks, those become the focus. Because it is increasingly likely that the race will not be decided until the GOP convention in Cleveland, Chris.

CUOMO: Those are the stakes, my friend. Thank you very much. We'll be back with you in a second.

Let's talk right now. Will this be, this Wisconsin primary, the game changer in this race? Joining us now, Wisconsin Republican Congressman Sean Duffy.

Unlike the majority of his state, his district largely all Trump. What do you think's going to happen tonight?

REP. SEAN DUFFY (R), WISCONSIN: So I think it's going to be close, as the polls have shown. I do think Ted Cruz has a slight edge because of the Scott Walker endorsement and Donald Trump hitting Scott Walker.

But in my district, which is central northern Wisconsin, western Wisconsin, Trump has a very strong movement and very loyal supporters. So if you look at how the delegates break up, it's not just who wins the state; it's who wins each congressional district. So I think Cruz comes away with more delegates. Donald Trump is not going to get stumped -- skunked in Wisconsin tonight.

CUOMO: But if he comes away with a lot more. You know -- you know the numbers better than I do. But there are people, somewhere between 35 to all of them for Cruz. Let's put all of them out of the picture for the sake of your analysis. That does change the path work going forward. It makes 1,237 harder for Trump to reach. You have to win something like 54, 55 percent of remaining delegates. How does that happen?

DUFFY: It is going to be hard for Trump. But you have to look, what happens with Cruz. Does he have now momentum coming out of Wisconsin as he comes now to New York? We don't know how this is going to play out. This campaign is continually in flux. We can't predict how it's going to roll out. Looking back to my part of the state, where you have -- you have people who -- they want a guy that's going to fight for them. They want someone who's going to say, "You know what? I don't care about Republican or conservative ideology. I want someone who's going to fight for me, and fight for America, and fight my job." And they're looking at Donald Trump, and he's the guy that's doing it.

Look around our state. You have the southeast corner, which is the Milwaukee area. A lot of Republican conservative voters. But in the northern part, yes, it's rural, but there's still a lot of voters up there.

Ted Cruz has taken a page out of Scott Walker. He's on a bus. He's traveling around doing retail politics, having coffee with people, taking pictures, shaking hands. They love that in my district.

But Donald Trump has this energy. He has, you know, thousands of people coming to his rally in Superior, Wisconsin, a Democrat stronghold. Fascinating.

CUOMO: But you know what? The big brains, the conservative radio. And I say that with respect. They have a lot of influence in Wisconsin. They banded together. Because they say, "You're right, Congressman." He's got tons of energy, tons of celebrity, popularity. None of those things make him a commander in chief. And they have united against Trump. And it looks like they've taken a bite out of him.

DUFFY: And they have. And I think that's a playbook that other states can move going forward, whether it's in New York or California. But these talk radio guys who I love -- they're wonderful guys -- they're talking to the conservative establishment Republicans.

The Trump -- the Trump voters are a little bit different. They're winnable by Democrats or Republicans. But no one's really been talking to them. They've been left out of the political process.

And so when Donald comes into the mix and says, "I'm going to fight for you. I'm your guy. I'm looking out for your family. I'm looking out for your border." That's -- that's this unique development, where the talk radio guys don't touch them, don't touch this class of voter. And there's a lot of them in my district.

If you look at what Scott Walker did, Scott Walker won the recalls not because of southeast Wisconsin. He came up to my part of the state and was able to engage with people. And you can win them if you talk to them, you fight for them. And that's -- and that's been the Donald Trump playbook.

CUOMO: Walker got beaten around in the -- his presidential bid by 80- 17, his numbers, positive-negative in the state. Donald Trump calling the state average, saying that the governor had done an average job. He likens to what happened with Nikki Haley in South Carolina. I don't think it's the same dynamic, where you look at the voters and say you're average. I don't know how that helps.

DUFFY: Eighty, 17, where 80 percent of conservatives and Republicans like Scott Walker.

CUOMO: Right.

DUFFY: And so when Donald Trump comes after Scott Walker and the reforms...

CUOMO: That's right. DUFFY: ... which most Republican conservative voters, they know these reforms are working, and Donald Trump takes the liberal progressive talking point in his three forms, that does not play well. And so you've seen some changes in the polls. It was this was going to be a Donald Trump win in Wisconsin, until he started to attack Scott Walker. And you started to see those polls change, and you started to see Ted Cruz get traction.

CUOMO: Interesting to see whether or not Trump is able in these final hours to change tactic and maybe help himself in the returns. We'll know tonight.

Let me ask you something, while I've got you in the chair, Congressman.

DUFFY: Yes.

CUOMO: Paul Ryan, friend of yours, yes?

DUFFY: Yes. Good Wisconsin guy, too.

CUOMO: I know that he is. And I know that the speaker has said, "Hey, listen, I'm not interested in this."

And I know that the RNC has said, "Our candidate is going to be somebody who's in -- our nominee is going to be somebody who's running right now."

But it doesn't have to be, does it? There's a lot of energy, to use the Trump word, around bringing someone, really specifically, Ryan, in. Possibility? Possibility, not probability. Possibility?

DUFFY: If there's a brokered convention, obviously, that's a possibility.

CUOMO: It is a possibility.

DUFFY: But it's not probable. This is not going to happen. I think what we have to see is a unification of the Republican Party. You need to see the Cruz folks and the Trump folks come together.

I'm doing a unity rally tonight in Wisconsin, because you have these fractious -- the division in the party. At one point, we have to start to unify and come together. And if you bring someone from the outside, like Paul Ryan said, "Listen, if you haven't been to Iowa, if you haven't run in Iowa, you shouldn't be on the ballot at the convention."

I agree with him on that. Paul is smart. And Paul, I think, realizes if you take this election away from a Trump or a Cruz, you divide the party, and it's going to be that much harder to beat Hillary Clinton.

CUOMO: What if it's a Kasich? You do not have uniters within the party dynamic right now when you look at Trump or Cruz. They didn't get where they are by being uniters within the party. Does that give an opening to Kasich, in your opinion? DUFFY: I look at Kasich, but Kasich has been on the ballot, and Kasich hasn't been able to win. I think that's a different dynamic than someone who hasn't been on the ballot.

CUOMO: So you think it has to be one of these two?

DUFFY: I do think so. And I think -- you would be hard pressed to see Paul Ryan step into the mix and try to take the nomination away from one of these two guys.

CUOMO: What was the best last shot, the Villanova shot last night or when Lorenzo Charles caught that alley-oop in the NCAA game?

DUFFY: It was a great end. And that Villanova shot at the end is going to be Bernie Sanders' plan in Wisconsin. He's going to make that shot. He's going to come, I think, to New York and do very, very well. He has this progressive energy which I disagree with, fundamentally. But he's excited the space in a profound way. He's making that...

CUOMO: You don't see Bernie as a low post guy? He's from Brooklyn. You don't see him putting the elbow in the ribs?

DUFFY: He does it both. He's got a great shot. He's got a great sharp elbow. So...

CUOMO: All right. Good turnout on that one. Congressman, thank you for being with us. Always a pleasure -- Mick.

PEREIRA: All right. We'll stay on Wisconsin here for a minute. As for the Democrats, Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton neck and neck there in Wisconsin. All this as rivals close the curtain on the so- called debate dilemma. Chris Frates live in Green Bay. The polls open in, what, less than an hour now, Chris.

CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's exactly right, Michaela. Bernie Sanders is hoping that all this time and energy that he's put into Wisconsin, especially in the last week here, translates into votes. He's leading Hillary Clinton in the polls. And, you know, going forward, he's really hoping that he can translate that to a big win today.

Eighty-six delegates at stake for Bernie Sanders. Hillary downplaying expectations here, reminding reporters that she lost to Barack Obama here in Wisconsin by double digits and that the state is a largely white state that plays to Sanders' favor. So perhaps not surprisingly, Bernie Sanders is sounding downright bullish.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't want to get Hillary Clinton more nervous than she already is. She's already under a lot of pressure. So don't tell her this. But I think we win here, we win in New York state, we're on our way to the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP) FRATES: Now, winning New York state is going to be a tall order for Bernie Sanders. Hillary Clinton leading him there by double digits. In fact, she campaigned in her home state yesterday to help solidify that lead. And there's no surprise as to why: 250 delegates at stake there, second only to California with the number of delegates in one state.

And Bernie Sanders lagging Hillary Clinton by about 240 delegates. And while there's no winner-take-all, he needs about 75 percent of the remaining pledged delegates to go clinch a nomination.

Hillary Clinton just needs 35 percent. But Hillary -- Bernie Sanders is going to continue to upset Hillary Clinton in her own state there, Mick. I'll tell you, Sanders and Clinton agreeing just yesterday to debate here on CNN April 14. That's the first time those two are going to go head to head in over a month, Michaela.

PEREIRA: It's nice to know that not just us who have scheduling issues. Apparently they had it, as well. Thanks so much for that.

FRATES: Thank you.

PEREIRA: As Chris mentioned, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders will face off in a CNN debate in New York next Thursday, April 14. Mark your calendar. That is five days before the New York primary.

BERMAN: Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland will get a face-to-face meeting with Senator Chuck Grassley, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. But he will not get a confirmation hearing any time soon. That's what Grassley says.

CNN senior political reporter Manu Raju live in Washington with more -- Manu.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, John.

After two weeks when senators were back home for recess, Democrats believe that Republicans will be under such enormous pressure that they would defect en masse from their party's leadership. But actually, the opposite has happened, and the Republican resolve has strengthened. Only two GOP senators are calling for hearings, the same as before the recess. A couple actually backtracked, had seemed an openness to hearings, getting pummeled by the right flank.

[07:15:05] And now Chuck Grassley chairs the Judiciary -- Judiciary Committee. And he's in charge of holding hearings. But according to an aide, he told Merrick Garland that he would be happy to have breakfast with him to discuss why no nominee will be getting confirmed until there is a new president.

Chuck Grassley up for reelection himself. Getting protests back home. But he does not believe this will affect his race. Republicans believe standing firm will rally their supporters in November. And right now, the Democratic pressure campaign isn't yielding much in terms of results. Only two meetings, Republican meetings scheduled this morning. Don't expect a whole lot more, Chris. CUOMO: All right, Manu. Hey, at least it's a start, right? I guess

that's what the White House is going to tell us.

A thrilling edge-of-your-seat finish to the college basketball season. Literally one for the books. Villanova, final seconds. The game had just been tied. And the big three to win over the favored North Carolina Tar Heels, 77-74. Literally one for the ages.

Nobody feels that more than the Pepsodent-smile pal named Andy Scholes with "The Bleacher Report" this morning. Literally, this is one that is going to live for a long time.

ANDY SCHOLES, "THE BLEACHER REPORT": Absolutely, Chris. If you're only going to get one hour of sleep, this is the game to do it for. I mean, this is one of the best games I've ever been to. It's going to go down as one of the best in the history of college basketball. An incredible finish. And let's take a look at how it all went down.

Michael Jordan in attendance to cheer on his Tar Heels here in this game. They were down three with under 10 seconds to go when senior Marcus Page hit an incredible shot to tie the game. But Villanova had four seconds left on the clock. They would get the ball up the court. And Chris Jenkins knocks down the shot at the buzzer, the first three- point game-winner in championship history. It's going to go down as one of the greatest shots ever. Villanova pulled off the upset, 77- 74. Their first championship since 1985.

And I caught up with the hero moments after his legendary shot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: Tell me about what was going through your head when that ball came out of your hands.

CHRIS JENKINS, SCORED WINNING SHOT FOR VILLANOVA: You know, every time I catch the shoot, I'm fortunate enough to get a shot off, I think they're all going in. So when Ryan Ozadiak (ph) fouled me on that shot, that shot was no different. I went two steps and let it go.

SCHOLES: What are you thinking right now? Can you believe what just happened?

JENKINS: I just want to meet Charles Barkley. All the guys up there picked against us, so I just want to say hello.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: This was the scene on campus at Villanova when Jenkins hit that game winner. Everyone just went into a frenzy.

And hey, guess what? Villanova announcing this morning classes are canceled today. So all those students that partied into the night, they can sleep in and enjoy the victory even longer.

And guys, you know, Jenkins, he's been a great story all week for us here in Houston. He was adopted by a family of a North Carolina player, Nate Britt. He's a guard for the Tar Heels. His family brought Jenkins in. And both, of course, the Britts were in attendance last night, as were Jenkins' birth parents.

PEREIRA: Oh, my goodness.

SCHOLES: They both got to celebrate with Jenkins after that shot. His mother jumping -- birth mother jumping into his arms. It's a really cool moment, guys. You could have made a movie about Jenkins before that shot. Afterward, it's now even better.

BERMAN: Now it's a trilogy at least.

PEREIRA: On its way to Hollywood right now.

BERMAN: Yes. I mean, it's good, man.

All right. Andy Scholes, thanks so much. Classes canceled at Villanova today, but the bookstore is open for any students who want to go pick up a math text today.

CUOMO: It's canceled because the professors were probably...

PEREIRA: Everybody. That was everybody.

CUOMO: The last time this happened for this university, for Villanova, they had an amazing team in the '80s. And it literally puts that university -- you're going to be talking about it in a way that you wouldn't have. And that man's life will never be the same.

BERMAN: No. Congratulations to all of them.

PEREIRA: Congratulations.

BERMAN: Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, they are locked in a tight race in Wisconsin. If Bernie Sanders pulls off a win there, does that reshape the Democratic or does Hillary Clinton have the math on her side? We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:22:56] SANDERS: I think the secretary is getting very nervous. That poll after poll shows us doing much better against Trump than she is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, they locked in a razor- tight race in Wisconsin. Voters heading to the polls in less than an hour. A Bernie Sanders victory there would give him six of the last seven Democratic contests. So, is the Clinton campaign worried?

Here to discuss is CNN political commentator Paul Begala, Democratic strategist and the senior adviser for a pro-Clinton super PAC. Also with us, CNN political commentator Van Jones.

Paul, I want to start with you. Bernie Sanders just said Hillary Clinton is nervous. And by extension, that means you. Are you nervous?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I love that. I love that. I'm about as nervous as Chris Jenkins last night getting that ball. We went to high school right across the street from my Washington bureau at Gonzaga, where my boys go, where his brother, Nate Britt, was on the Carolina Tar Heels last night. So it was a huge night here in D.C. for D.C. sports fans, especially at my house.

But no. Well, first of all, let me correct that.

BERMAN: You confused yourself. You confused yourself with a basketball reference. Are you nervous about the campaign?

BEGALA: Of course. The only two ways to run are scared and unopposed. And Hillary is not unopposed. Everybody who ever puts their name on a ballot with an opponent ought to take that opponent seriously.

And Senator Sanders has run a great campaign. He's got about 40 percent of the vote so far in this process. That's impressive. It's a distant second to Hillary. He can't catch Hillary's lead. So am I worried that Hillary will not be the nominee? No. Do I take this campaign that Bernie is running very seriously? Of course. He's raising important issues. He's, frankly, registering voters. He's getting more attention. This could be very good for the Democratic Party and has been so far.

He's not going to win.

BERMAN: You're damning him with faint praise...

BEGALA: Right.

BERMAN: ... saying he's received 40 percent of the vote, and that's very impressive. He also...

BEGALA: It's a distant second, but it's not bad.

BERMAN: He also received $44 million last month. And that is, you know, a blank load of money, Paul. And it's a lot more than Hillary Clinton took in last month.

BEGALA: Right.

BERMAN: He's beaten her in fundraising numbers for the last three months. That's big. That is cause for being nervous, more than just, you know, standard run-of-the-mill you always run nervous.

[07:25:03] BEGALA: Of course. It's impressive. He's running a great campaign. But he is running a great campaign that is almost 700 delegates behind Hillary Clinton's even greater campaign. And my hat's off to Bernie. He's running a terrific race. And by the

way, this news about having a debate -- I can't remember what network that's going to be on, Berman -- our network, a debate in New York is going to be terrific. It's going to be a must-view performance.

So I think it's all to the good. Part of the reason I'm happy, frankly, that this is still going on, is that it gets more attention for the Democrats. We will never be able to compete with the Trump- pocalypse on the Republican side, but we're actually having a campaign about idea on my side. I like it.

BERMAN: I'm not sure that I believe that Clinton supporters are still happy that it's going on as it is at this point. I want to talk to Robby Mook about that in a little bit.

Van Jones, though, does Paul have a point there? I mean, does -- despite the fact that Bernie Sanders is taking in all the money, despite the fact that he's won five out of the last six contests, how does he come up with the math? It just doesn't look like it's there.

VAN JONES, CNN COMMENTATOR: Well, listen, first of all, it is a tough road for him. I mean, he knows that. Everybody knows that.

Let's take out of the equation some of the super delegates. Assume that they'll be fickle and might come his way. He still has to get 55, 60, you know, more percent of the votes out there.

Here's the reality, though. When you're talking about $42, $43 million and only 3 or 4 percent of your people have maxed out, you're talking about a very broad base of people who are -- you know, and they're giving 13 bucks, 12 bucks, 27 bucks. They've got it on their ATM card. It gets hit every month.

Half her folks are already maxed out. What does that mean? That means he has a real movement. She's got to respect that.

When you get to the general election and beyond, the future of this party is in his hands. These young voters are with him. And she's got to deal with -- she can't go around saying, "I feel sorry for his voters, because they can't do basic research." She can't go -- she can't be the chair of the "Bernie or bust movement," which is what she managed to do when she made that horrible gaffe over the weekend.

BERMAN: At this point, by Bernie Sanders staying in the race, he's not running for a movement. He's not running to make a statement. The way he's running right now is still running to win. He wants to win.

JONES: Absolutely.

BERMAN: He wants to win. He wants to be president. And Hillary Clinton's campaign at this point said that's all but impossible. Listen to the memo that Robby Mook sent around last night. He said, "The Sanders campaign path forward relies on overturning the will of the voters." Essentially saying, you know, it would take delegate machinations for Bernie Sanders to win. JONES: Well, I mean, what's interesting about that is the super

delegates, if they -- Here's a scenario, just to give you one.

Suppose, you know, he continues to rack up these type of victories. And he's having the momentum. And she's just sagging and limping and sagging and limping. And there's some reason to think she just couldn't pull it off. That's why you have a convention, to sit down and have those super delegates make a decision. Is that likely? Highly unlikely. But that is part of the hope of this movement.

But the other thing, let's not forget, there is a real fight inside this party over ideas. Is it OK to say single payer? Or if you say single payer do you hate Obama? That kind of stuff has landed very poorly with a lot of the activist wing of the party. We want to be able to put out bigger ideas without being accused of being against the president.

That kind of stuff has given a kind of nastiness among the activists. Not even as much among the candidates but among the activists. That kind of stuff has to heal if Democrats are going to do well in November.

BERMAN: Van Jones, Paul Begala, thanks so much for being with us. Thank you for bringing up basketball last night. I could talk about that game all day long. Paul, Van, thanks so much.

JONES: All year long.

BERMAN: All year long. Years to come.

All right. Coming up on NEW DAY, we're going to hear from both Democratic campaign managers. That is in our next hour, Jeff Weaver, the man behind the Bernie Sanders campaign; Robby Mook, the man behind the Hillary Clinton campaign. They will join us, both live.

Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders also -- you just heard it right here -- they're going to face off in a CNN debate. That is in Brooklyn, April 14. It's five days before the New York primary. They haven't debated in a month. This is a huge, huge deal -- Chris.

CUOMO: The boogie down in Brooklyn, J.B. That's what it's going to be.

BERMAN: That is good.

CUOMO: So it is -- all right. A big cornerstone of Donald Trump's presidential campaign is the wall, right? And what's been the big question? How, how, how? How are you going to pay for it? Donald Trump has just released a planned memo. "The Washington Post" picked it up. We will discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)