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Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton Compete for Votes in Wisconsin Primary; Interview with Bernie Sanders Campaign Manager Jeff Weaver, Interview with Hillary Clinton Campaign Manager Robby Mook; Trump & Cruz Call on Kasich to Drop Out; Voter Turnout is Key in Wisconsin. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired April 05, 2016 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're on our way to the White House.

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I've got a track record of proven results.

SANDERS: I think the secretary is getting very nervous.

CLINTON: I've very confident that I will be the nominee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More than a dozen suspected jihadists who officials are now looking for across Europe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're looking for a needle in a haystack.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities are trying to get their arms around exactly how large this network could be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota, and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: By the way, John Berman just admitted he would never have worn the cheese hat. He doesn't let anything touch his hair.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Can't mess with the moneymaker.

CUOMO: Good morning on that and welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Tuesday, April 5th, 8:00 in the east. Alisyn is off. Captain perfect hair, John Berman, is here with Michaela and me. And this is a big day in the election. The polls are now open in this flash point state of Wisconsin. Today's results could have a dramatic impact on both sides of the race. Will the GOP race be reset if Ted Cruz takes a big chunk of these delegates and makes the magic number for Donald trump 1,237 almost impossible to achieve?

BERMAN: And on the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, a tight race in Wisconsin. If Bernie Sanders can make it six out of seven, if he wins there, should the Clinton campaign be worried? All this as the two finally agree to a debate. It will be right here on CNN on April 14th. We're going to speak with both campaign managers in just moments. We have today the Wisconsin primary, covered only the way CNN can.

Let's begin with Chris Frates live in Green Bay where now at long last, Chris, voting is under way.

CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That is right, John. And Bernie Sanders is leading Hillary Clinton in the polls, and he is really looking to run up the score on Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton of course has been downplaying expectations all week long, reminding reporters that she lost this state to then Senator Barack Obama in 2008 by double digits, and that this state is more white than many other places where she has done well and this is Bernie Sanders country. So not surprisingly, Bernie Sanders is sounding very bullish on the campaign trail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: I don't want to get her more nervous than she already is.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: She's already under a lot of pressure, so don't tell her this. But I think we win here, we win New York state, we're on our way to the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRATES: Winning in New York state is going to be a tall order for Bernie Sanders. Hillary Clinton leading him by double digits there. In fact she campaigned there yesterday to try to continue to solidify that lead. But it is an important state, 250 delegates in play there, second only to California. And Bernie Sanders is lagging Hillary Clinton by about 240 delegates. And while there is no winner take all, Bernie Sanders is needing 75 percent of the pledged delegates left to become the nominee. Hillary Clinton needs just 35 percent. So he's still looking to upset Hillary Clinton there. And a big day on April 14th, that's when both Sanders and Clinton are going to go head-to-head right here on CNN in a primetime debate. That's the first time, Chris, that those two have matched up in over a month.

CUOMO: Frates, I love the way you give us the anticipation of the debate to come. Thank you very much, my friend.

So what's going to happen in Wisconsin tonight if Bernie Sanders wins the way he expects? What does it mean going forward? Who better to make the case than Bernie Sanders campaign manager Jeff Weaver. Jeff, good to have you as always. Good luck tonight as we wish all of the campaigns.

JEFF WEAVER, BERNIE SANDERS CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Chris, thank you very much.

CUOMO: So senator Sanders said we win in Wisconsin, we win in New York. We're on our way to the White House. Make the case.

WEAVER: Look, Chris, I think everybody knows the back half of the calendar is much more favorable to Senator Sanders. I think you have seen the last six or seven, including Democrats abroad, where the senator has won -- not only won but won overwhelmingly and has seriously eroded the secretary's lead. She had over a 300 delegate lead. Now we've got it down to an almost 200 delegate lead. We're going to keep chipping away at it. The senator is campaigning here this morning in Wisconsin. He's actually going to be in Wyoming, which is technically the next contest coming up later this evening. And then he's going to be in Pennsylvania and then New York. He's campaigning very hard and what we're seeing across the country, Chris, is that people are moving to Bernie Sanders and his message of dealing with a rigged economy and a corrupt campaign finance system.

CUOMO: Resonating, but resonating enough? The math suggests that you would have to win almost three out of every four delegates, that mathematically it does not work for you. Do you accept the math?

WEAVER: Well, I accept math, but not that kind of funny math. The truth is in those six or seven contests the senator just won, he got over 80 percent in Alaska. He got almost 70 percent in Washington state which has over 100 delegates, won Hawaii overwhelmingly. He is winning by these gigantic margins, and that's going to allow him to catch up to the secretary.

[08:05:05] We also saw in Nevada, at the convention in Nevada, which is the second of the caucus system there, that in fact he picked up four net delegates there. So as the caucus system process goes along in these various states, Chris, he's going to pick up even more delegates than he won on election night.

CUOMO: So you believe there is a clear path to victory for the senator still. You are not calculating going into the convention and seeing what you can get out of it as somebody who made a mighty challenge?

WEAVER: I think what this campaign is looking for and what the senator is looking for going into the convention and coming out with the nomination.

CUOMO: It's simple as that. Do you believe it will come down to who gets the magic number? Or do you think that the Democratic side, like we are talking about on the GOP side, could wind up in a contested convention?

WEAVER: That's a good point Chris. The truth of the matter is, if you look at the math, if you want to talk about math, the truth is that it is very, very, very unlikely that either candidate, either Secretary Clinton or Senator Sanders, will go into the convention with a majority needed of pledge delegates in order to win. And so in essence the Democratic convention will be an open convention.

CUOMO: But that is now how the system works. You know the super delegates count. They can change but they count. WEAVER: Right, but they don't count until they vote. And they don't

vote until we get to the convention. So when we arrive at the convention, it will be an open convention likely with neither candidate having a majority of pledged delegates. So I think it will be an interesting Democratic convention.

CUOMO: So what's going to happen here in New York? Bernie from Brooklyn is coming to town take on Hillary Clinton. They are now going to debate. Are you happy that you are going to debate? And what do you think is going to happen here?

WEAVER: Well Chris, this campaign and Senator Sanders has pushed for more debates since the beginning of this campaign. As you know at the beginning of the campaign the DNC structure was restrictive. We've managed to open it up to get more debates. We've wanted a debate in New York since January. We've been pushing for it. The Clinton's campaign initial reaction was that is a nonstarter. They didn't want to have a debate in New York. They finally relented not only in New York but in Brooklyn. But the senator is very gratified about that. He looks forward to debating the secretary on the important issues facing the country. So the people of New York get an opportunity to see the two on the same stage before the primary on the 19th.

CUOMO: Bernie Sanders, vocal, vocal and critical when hint stood next to the ugly Cuomo brother at the $15 minimum wage rally here in New York state, saying, $15? That is not Clinton. That is me. I should be there. Make the case.

WEAVER: Well, the truth of the matter is that Secretary Clinton does not support a $15 national minimum wage. That is a position that Senator Sanders has advocated from the beginning of this campaign. As you know there is a large organized fight for $15 effort among fast food workers and others. Secretary Clinton supports a lower $12 minimum wage.

But the truth of the matter is that as we've seen throughout this campaign, Chris, the secretary seems to want to move towards Bernie's positions. Unfortunately they are not really sincere moves, and I think were she to get the nomination I think you would see her backing off a bunch of those, quote-unquote, progressive moves that she's made over the course of the campaign.

CUOMO: The shtick on the other side is the reason she doesn't back $15 is because you can't get it done. Yes, it may have happened here in New York. But there is a very specific set of political considerations that the governor here is dealing with. Bernie Sanders state, Vermont, they can't get $15 done. So yes he's in favor of it, but you can't get it done, and that is a criticism that is leveled with a lot of the senator's plans. They whip up the heart. They get the emotion going. But they are impractical at best, impossible at worst.

WEAVER: Look, Chris, the secretary is an incrementalist. We all understand that. But the truth is, if you ask for a full loaf of bread you might get half a loaf. If you ask for a slice you are going to get crumbs. And that is the sort of problem with the centrist, moderate governing approach that the secretary is advocating.

What we need is a bold leader who is going to go in there and articulate positions to deal with the problems facing this country, who is going to get as much done as possible. And I worked with Bernie Sanders for 30 years in Congress. He's an adept negotiator. He just did a big deal with John McCain on veterans healthcare two years ago, the largest expansion of veterans health care in modern history of this country. He knows how to get deals done. And he will be an effective in sort of negotiating his proposals as far out as they can be negotiated.

CUOMO: Jeff Weaver, thank you for making the case for Bernie Sanders as always here on NEW DAY. Good luck tonight.

WEAVER: Thanks, Chris.

CUOMO: John?

BERMAN: We have a great opportunity now to get perspective from team Clinton. We are joined now by Clinton campaign manager Robby Mook. Robby, thanks for being with us.

ROBBY MOOK, CAMPAIGN MANAGER, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: Thank you

BERMAN: We heard a lot of politics and policy there from Jeff Weaver. Let's talk politics first. He said Bernie Sanders has won gigantic victories. He was talking about Washington and Alaska. He says he can continue with the gigantic victories going forward which would give him the delegates to win the nomination. Your reaction?

[08:10:08] MOOK: Senator Clinton, or Secretary Clinton, excuse me, has been fighting every day to earn every vote in every state. So we're just going to keep focused on doing that. But let's step back and look at the numbers. Secretary Clinton has won the popular vote. She is ahead by 2.5 million votes. There are 21 contests where more than seven percent of the electorate has turned out. She's won 17 of them. And she has a delegate lead, a lead bigger than then Senator Obama ever had in his race. So I think the numbers speak for themselves. She's winning this primary.

BERMAN: One number is five out of the last six. She's lost five out of the last six contests. She's trailing in the polls today in Wisconsin. Don't those numbers count?

MOOK: This is a delegate race and she has that delegate lead, and as I said, turnout is on important factor here. In a lot of the races that Jeff Weaver talked about, turnout was less than seven percent. In the contests where there are a lot of people voting, where there's a diverse electorate, Secretary Clinton is winning.

BERMAN: Jeff Weaver just said that it is very unlikely either candidate has a clear majority of pledged delegates going into the convention, which means that the super delegates come into play. And he just said something interesting. He said, I think it will be a very interesting convention, which to me would suggest that he thought there would be a floor fight. Did you take that away from his comments?

MOOK: Well, I'll let him interpret what he said. I think let's just wait and see. There are a lot of contests coming up. There are three very delegate-rich states coming up -- Pennsylvania, New York here, and then California. I think there are plenty of delegates for one candidate to get a majority of the pledge delegates. But, again, we are just putting our nose to the grindstone and focusing on earning those every single day.

BERMAN: Do you resent the notion that Bernie Sanders is still in this campaign?

MOOK: Not at all. I think this has been a very competitive contest. I think it's been good for our campaign and very good for our party.

BERMAN: You put out a memo where you said the Sanders campaign path forward relies on overturning the will of the voters. That is not saying, hey, we are thrilled to have you here. That is saying you don't have a path and shouldn't be here.

MOOK: No. It is putting a little bit of cold water on their argument. Jeff is talking about it's going to be a contested convention. Nobody can get a majority of pledged delegates. There are some simple, mathematical facts here, and the Sanders campaign can't explain how they will get the delegates to win. And so now what they are saying is we'll go into states like Nevada and other caucuses and try to steal some delegates away in the process or we'll steal away super delegates. That is not fighting for votes. That is not getting the majority of the voters. That is trying to work the math and it doesn't work. They haven't been able to prove a path.

And again, Secretary Clinton is leading the vote total by 2.5 million votes, leading the delegate total by 230 delegates. That's more than President Obama ever had. So we're confident in the math and we're going to let that speak for itself.

BERMAN: You could have a choice, hey, I'd like to keep Bernie Sanders in this race until July or I would rather have him drop out at 9:30 this morning. What would you take?

MOOK: That is up to senator Sanders. The competition is a good thing in this race. We've had a great debate ant the issues. And in fact I'm proud off our primary. If you look at what the discussion has been between our candidates, it is on issues. It's on the minimum wage. It's on affording college. It is not the kind of insults and bigotry that you hear on the Republican side.

BERMAN: But by saying that he's got no mathematical path to nomination, you are implying that he's not running to win at this. Do you think he's trying to make a statement or do you think he wants to be the Democratic nominee?

MOOK: I'm going to let him decide and speak to the kind of campaign they're running. We're just going to keep focused on earning every delegate, every precinct, every fight. BERMAN: Let's talk about a few of the policy statements we just heard

from Jeff Weaver right will. He said he doesn't think Hillary Clinton is sincere in a lot of the positions, the progressive positions that he said that she's taking right now and that she could change them after the fact if she became the nominee, specifically on the minimum wage. Bernie Sanders says he's been for a $15 minimum wage all along. Hillary Clinton not for a national $15 minimum wage.

MOOK: What Secretary Clinton is for is getting the minimum wage up to $12 immediately. And then if the locality feels the need to raise it higher because the cost of living is higher she wants them to do that. That's why she supported a $15 minimum wage here in New York. And in fact the law that was passed here in New York raised the minimum wage to $12.50 in upstate and $15 here in city. So it is actually completely consistent with the position she has.

BERMAN: But he's not wrong in saying that Hillary Clinton does not support a $15 national minimum wage.

MOOK: She supports a $15 minimum wage where the localities feel they need that. We have to get it up to $12 everywhere. And in fact Alan Krueger, who is the leading progressive economist on this issue, has said that's the way to go. This is the bill that the Senate leadership supports. This is a very widely held view in our party.

BERMAN: What about the idea, and Jeffrey flat out said it, I have quotation marks here, that Hillary Clinton is not sincere in some of the progressive positions that she's taken in the primary campaign.

MOOK: Well, that's simply not true. And, you know, I don't think senator Sanders has been sincere here in New York, which is facing serious problems with guns being trafficked from Vermont and other states.

[08:15:04] He's not being sincere when he doesn't explain -- when he's not explaining why, you know, he voted against universal background checks five times. I think he has a lot of explaining to do to the voters here in New York about that issue.

BERMAN: What do you think he's not being sincere about specifically?

MOOK: Well, he's not being sincere that he stood with the gun lobby, repeatedly. They called this their number one issue.

BERMAN: They say that he's -- you know, he's no NRA guy, the NRA does. They say Bernie Sanders isn't with us.

MOOK: They certainly spent a lot of money to defeat his opponent in 1990 election when he first got to Congress. He owed them a lot for his first election. And when they came to him and said our most important vote this year in the Congress is a vote for immunity from liability suits to gun manufacturers, he voted with them. And --

BERMAN: Robby Mook, great to have you here with us.

MOOK: Good to be here. BERMAN: Thanks so much for coming. We'll see you in April 14th, big CNN debate.

MOOK: Absolutely.

BERMAN: Nice to see you.

MOOK: Looking forward to it.

BERMAN: And, of course, along those lines, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, they square off in New York, in Brooklyn. Both campaigns next Thursday, April 14th. Five days before the New York primary -- Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Let's turn to the Republican side now.

Could Wisconsin voters reset the GOP race? Ted Cruz looking to cash in on Donald Trump's recent stumbles. While Ohio Governor John Kasich aims to prove that he's still a force to be reckoned with.

Our Phil Mattingly joins us now with more on that race.

Hey, Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Michaela.

Well, if you are Ted Cruz or anybody who's trying to stop Donald Trump, today is a big day. Polls are trending in your direction. Trump has had a rough week. But Trump is warning everybody, don't write me off.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you, Wisconsin. I love you. Go out and vote. I love you.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): Final 24 hour blitz. The Republican candidates exchanging insults and fighting for votes ahead of a primary that could reshape the Republican race.

TRUMP: I've never ever met anybody that lied like him.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: His security blanket is to insult people.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think they are becoming hysterical.

MATTINGLY: Donald Trump on damage control, after the worst week of his campaign.

TRUMP: Every week, it's the end of Trump. Then they walk in, sir, I don't know what happened but your poll numbers just went through the roof.

MATTINGLY: Rolling out female supporters and his wife Melania in a desperate bid to improve his standing with women.

MELANIA TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP'S WIFE: No matter who you are, a man or a woman, he treats everyone equal.

MATTINGLY: Senator Cruz looking to capitalize on Trump's weakness.

CRUZ: I know that Donald, it makes him feel really tough, it makes him feel like a very, very big man to threaten people, and in particular, he seems to have a problem with strong women.

MATTINGLY: And once again, denying tabloid report accusing him of cheating on his wife.

CRUZ: That attack was complete and utter garbage. It was complete lies and it came from Donald Trump and his henchmen.

MATTINGLY: Trump and Cruz both calling for Republican rival John Kasich to drop out of the race.

TRUMP: He's one and 30. He ought to get out. Honestly.

CRUZ: If you lose 49 states, you ain't going to be the Republican nominee.

MATTINGLY: A proposal that Kasich flat out rejected.

KASICH: He said he needs to get out because he's getting my votes. And I want to have my votes. He's -- this is not fair. I thought we got out of the sand box years ago.

MATTINGLY: The Ohio governor returning fire, accusing Ted Cruz of playing dirty politics in response to a series of attack ads that the Cruz campaign rolled out this weekend.

KASICH: He smeared Ben Carson, he smeared Marco Rubio, he smeared Donald Trump and now, he's smearing me. Don't push me around. You think you can push me around and get away with it. You're wrong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Now, 42 delegates isn't exactly going change the game, even if Ted Cruz sweeps all of them. But what it does do is throws a major roadblock in front of Donald Trump's effort to get to 1,237. That is the number of delegates need to secure the nomination before the Cleveland convention. If he loses Wisconsin in a big way, that becomes a whole lot harder, guys.

CUOMO: Well put. Phil Mattingly, thank you very much.

A big factor tonight is going to be turnout. If it's high it could mean one way this goes. If it's not, the other. The polls have been open for 15 minute or so.

We have CNN's Jason Carroll live in Brookfield, Wisconsin, with more.

Jason, it's why the polls have been so spotty in this race, is that turnout and emotion can change the dynamic like that.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It certainly can. And it is expected to here.

You know, here in the state of Wisconsin, expecting record turnout. Election officials saying 40 percent of all registered voters have turned in forms. They are expecting some 1.75 million people to head out to polling sites like this one where we are.

If that would end up being the case, Chris, it would be the larger voter turnout in a presidential primary since 1980. And when you think of the state of Wisconsin, here is what you need to do when thinking about Republicans -- you need to think of the so called WOW counties -- Waukesha, Ozaukee, and also Washington Counties.

[08:20:03] These are basically the three counties sort of in and around Milwaukee. They are the suburbs.

This is where there's been push from the Republicans to get out and vote. This is where the big push from Republicans to get out and vote. This is where we've seen people like Trump and Cruz holding their town halls and the rallies.

Of course, Trump saying that this huge turnout is all because of him and his influence. As you know, he is behind the polls here behind Ted Cruz in some polls double digits behind Ted Cruz. But he says, look, he's been behind before in foreign places like South Carolina and New Hampshire. He's pulled out win there and he's going to pull out a win here. We'll wait and see -- Chris, Michaela.

PEREIRA: I'll take it here. We will wait and see. It looks like a cool day there but folks are hearty, they will turn out and do their thing.

All right. Donald Trump and Ted Cruz both turning up the pressure on John Kasich. Should he call it quits? Former governor of Wisconsin, Tommy Thompson, part of the Kasich, will respond to that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He's one in 30. He ought to get the hell out, honestly. And let me tell you. He hurts me much more than he hurts Cruz.

CRUZ: Under the rules, you have to have won eight states. There are only two candidates who will have met that threshold. The choice will be between me and Donald Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: A rare moment of agreement on the Republican campaign trail. Donald Trump and Ted Cruz, they don't agree on much, but they both want John Kasich to drop out and make it a two man race for the Republican nomination. So, does the Ohio Governor John Kasich have a legitimate, reasonable shot at the nomination? [08:25:04] Let's bring in former Wisconsin Governor Tommy Thompson.

He's the state chair for the Kasich campaign.

Governor, thanks so much for being was. How is John Kasich going to do in Wisconsin today?

TOMMY THOMPSON, FORMER GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN: Well, John, you have asked several questions in that lead up. But let me hit them out of the park one by one.

First off, over a year ago, I said, we are going to have an open convention. I think I was the first national leader to say we're going to have a an open convention. I've never changed, never wavered, always said that. Neither of the leading two candidates are going to get enough delegate votes. So, we are going to go and have an open convention.

Isn't it better to have three individual candidates to choose from? A candidate that has a record both at the federal level and the state level, which neither of the other two candidates have?

And let's take a look at what's going on. John Kasich is the only candidate who can win. I, for one, want to beat Hillary Clinton or whoever the Democrats put up as their nominee. I think it is okay for intramural basketball and baseball. But when you get to the full cycle, the professional -- the professional stretch, you want the candidate that is going to win. That is John Kasich.

Now, let's take a look at what Donald and Ted Cruz are saying. Donald says whoa, you are taking votes from me. Well, a lot of people think that is a good idea. John Kasich is fighting hard for every vote in Wisconsin, every vote in the United States. And he's doing well.

He's well qualified. And I believe sincerely as a second, third, fourth ballot, John Kasich is going to be our nominee. And that is what both of the individuals are afraid of. Ted is afraid very much so that when they look at their records, Ted Cruz does not have a record at all compared to John Kasich. And neither does Donald Trump.

BERMAN: I very much --

THOMPSON: So when you look at the record, it is John Kasich and who can win? It is John Kasich. That's why it is so important that John Kasich stays in.

BERMAN: We can hear your sincerity and your support for Governor Kasich in your voice. He's got a good advocate in you sir. You say John Kasich is the only candidate who can win. How is he going to do it in Wisconsin today?

THOMPSON: He's going to do all right in Wisconsin.

BERMAN: But he's not going to win, is he?

(CROSSTALK)

THOMPSON: He's going to be close. It is going to be a lot closer. The vote turnout is going to be big.

I think John Kasich is going to pick up some delegate votes, win some congressional seats. I think he's going to surprise a lot of people and I think there is really a good chance that John is going to do very well totally in the state of Wisconsin. I'm very proud of him.

BERMAN: He keeps on saying that he is the candidate who can win. Yet Ted Cruz points out, Donald Trump points out he's won one out of 30 so far. If you are the candidate who can win, why aren't you winning?

THOMPSON: Well, first off there were 17 candidates. There were several governors. He's the only governor standing. There's one of three right now.

Finally, the individual media like yourself, John, and other people, I'm not being critical at all, are starting to take a look at John Kasich and say, you know, this guy has a great record. He's a wonderful candidate. He speaks the truth. He speaks for what the vast majority of the people are looking for, a leader like him.

And so, I think you are going to see every succeeding state, he's going to continue to get more and more of the votes. More and more people are going to get to know him. You're going to cover him more. That's going to be helpful.

It's been a long journey where a lot of people never interviewed him, never looked at him seriously. Now, they are. He's going to do very well in the remaining states.

BERMAN: You say you have always believed it would be an open convention. Historically speaking there have been open conventions in the past governor but it's been a long time. I mean, it's a really long time since a truly open convention. You can say 1976. Even that was more predetermined than I think on the historical record.

Why have the primaries and caucuses now if they're not going count when you get to the convention in Cleveland?

THOMPSON: Well, they do count. That's why three candidates are going to be vying for the nomination in Cleveland. And you can't win the Republican presidency without carrying Ohio.

John Kasich is going to be in Ohio. He's the governor of Ohio. He can carry Ohio. Another good reason why he should do it.

But let's look at contested open conventions. The first one was Abraham Lincoln in 1860. And people don't remember this. Abraham Lincoln came into the convention in Chicago following way behind the governor of Ohio and the governor of New York. New York governor was supposed to win. He went on vacation.

And Abraham Lincoln went to the convention early. Rounded up the delegate votes and won and he turned out to be an excellent president. Probably the president we've had maybe with the exception of George Washington. BERMAN: You are not going to get any argument with me on Abraham

Lincoln at all. However, there is no New Hampshire primary or Iowa caucus, you know, in 1860.

THOMPSON: That's true.

BERMAN: They are now. The process has changed. But do I understand your argument.