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Cruz & Sanders Win Big in Wisconsin. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired April 06, 2016 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

[05:58:56] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, and welcome to your NEW DAY. And what a day it is. It is Wednesday, April 6, now 6 a.m. in the East.

Up first, Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders winning big in Wisconsin, resetting the 2016 race for president. Both candidates dealing blows to their party's front-runners in last night's pivotal primaries. Cruz calls it a turning point in his battle with Donald Trump. Trump's path to the nomination now anything but certain. The delegate math just is not adding up.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And on the Democratic side, Bernie Sanders is on a roll, decisively winning six of the last seven states. But can he catch up to Hillary Clinton's seemingly insurmountable delegate lead?

Both parties setting their sights on delegate-rich New York and the very real possibility that neither party will have a nominee going into their conventions.

We have this election covered the way only CNN can. So let's begin with Christine Romans. She has a look at where the races stand now.

Hi, Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi. Good morning, you guys.

Wisconsin was a must-win for Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders. And they both did just that. The state proving to be unfriendly territory for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.

Let's look at the numbers. Cruz's decisive victory in Wisconsin shaking up the Republican race now. He won with more than 48 percent of the vote. With 42 delegates up for grabs, Cruz will take 36 of those.

Now, Donald Trump will get three delegates for his second-place finish, which means he's still on top here of this GOP delegate race. But as we get into the home stretch, the math isn't adding up for him to clinch the nomination before the convention.

This, of course, sets the stage for a delegate fight, fight at an open convention. With 16 primaries and caucuses to go here, Trump will need to win 60 percent now of the remaining pledged delegates to reach the magic number of 1,237. Not impossible, you guys, but unlikely, as the contests ahead are states where Cruz and Kasich are favored to do better.

Now, turning now to the Democratic race. Bernie Sanders with a sweeping victory, with more than 56 -- 56 percent of the vote there. That brings his number of pledged delegates to 1,066, a little more than 200 behind Clinton's pledged delegate total.

However, Clinton leads Sanders by a very wide margin among Democratic establishment super delegates. Assuming all super delegates, they remain committed to their candidates, Hillary Clinton, she's got about 36. She needs 36 percent of the remaining pledged delegates to clinch the nomination.

But super delegates don't count until they vote on the convention floor. The Sanders campaign hoping some of those delegates -- super delegates jump ship.

Both parties now facing the real possibility of not having a nominee before the start of their conventions.

PEREIRA: Wow.

All right, Christine. Thank you so much.

So Ted Cruz's decisive win over Donald Trump now pushes the GOP closer to a contested convention. Trump, though, not giving up without a fight. Our Phil Mattingly joins us live with more -- Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Michaela.

Ted Cruz needed a big night. Ted Cruz got a big night. It's the type of night that may actually reset the Republican race and certainly pushes Donald Trump far away from that pathway he was hoping to have to secure the Republican nomination before the convention in July.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hillary, get ready. Here we come.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): Ted Cruz pulling off a big win in Wisconsin's Republican primary. The victory for Cruz narrowing Donald Trump's path to the nomination and moving the party ever closer to a contested convention.

CRUZ: Tonight is a turning point. It is a rallying cry.

MATTINGLY: Cruz's win the most substantial since his defeat of Trump in Iowa.

CRUZ: Three weeks ago the media said Wisconsin was a perfect state for Donald Trump. But the hard-working men and women of Wisconsin stood and campaigned tirelessly to make sure that tonight was a victory for every American.

MATTINGLY: Trump now facing a nearly impossible mathematical challenge to amass the 1,237 delegates needed to capture the nomination. A rough week of political blunders, attack ads, and questions about his ability to be presidential loosening the front- runner's grip as the presumptive nominee.

Former presidential candidate Lindsey Graham, who reluctantly backed Cruz, tweeting, "Well down, Ted Cruz. Hopefully tonight is the turning point to deny Donald Trump 1,237 delegates."

In the hours before polls closed, Trump hit the trail hard. It wasn't enough.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You could have a big surprise tonight, folks. Big surprise.

MATTINGLY: Trump's campaign mostly silent after his loss, only releasing a biting statement against the Cruz campaign, saying in part, "Lying Ted Cruz had the governor of Wisconsin, many conservative talk radio show hosts, and the entire party apparatus behind him," going on to say, "Ted Cruz is worse than a puppet. He's a Trojan horse, being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from Mr. Trump."

Cruz, meanwhile, celebrating his big win.

CRUZ: My wife Heidi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Heidi!

MATTINGLY: Ensuring she shares the spotlight after Trump retweeted an unflattering photo of her, which he later acknowledged was a mistake.

CRUZ: I may be biased, but isn't she going to make an amazing first lady?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Now the race now moves east. Ninety-five delegates at stake right here in New York. And Donald Trump's advisers are not trying to hold down the expectations here, predicting, one source told me, as many as 90 delegates could come his way.

This is certainly a part of the country that is not as favorable to Ted Cruz. So Trump looking to kind of grab that momentum back in the weeks ahead. But still one thing is very clear. Last night a huge night for Ted Cruz and a huge night for everybody trying to stop Donald Trump. All eyes now on Cleveland -- Chris.

CUOMO: Phil, New York, the big one, no question. We have to look forward. But New York is a little bit more tricky on the GOP side than people know. We're going to talk about that in a little bit. Thank you very much for giving us the headline there. [06:05:10] Let's get to the Democratic side. Bernie Sanders

riding this wave of momentum, a decisive win in Wisconsin. He's now defeated Hillary Clinton in six of the last seven states. The focus of the race now shifts as a result to New York, as well. But you know what? This is not as easy as people thought it was going to be for Hillary Clinton.

Let's bring in CNN senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny, joining us with more -- Jeff.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, everyone now.

This is what a winning streak looks like, and Bernie Sanders is on one. He not only won Wisconsin, he won big, by 13 percentage points.

Now, the Clinton campaign was saying that they were prepared for a loss, but they were not prepared for a loss of this size in a key battleground that they will need in the general election, should she ultimately win.

Last night was all Bernie Sanders. And he gave a bit of a definition of what momentum means.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Momentum is starting the campaign 60 to 70 points behind Secretary Clinton. Momentum is that, within the last couple of weeks, there have been national polls which have had us one point up or one point down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: Now, Bernie Sanders won across the board. Mainly young voters but also independent voters. That is the biggest sort of worrying segment of the electorate the Clinton campaign has not been able to reach out to.

Now, as for Hillary Clinton, she did not have an event at all. She was actually at a fund-raiser last night in the Bronx. She did send out this tweet, however, very sparse in her congratulations: "Congrats to Bernie Sanders on winning Wisconsin. To all the voters and volunteers who poured your hearts into this campaign, forward."

They are going forward on this, the next fight here in the next two weeks, here in New York, 247 delegates at stake. A firewall, if there was ever was one, for Hillary Clinton -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Jeff. Thanks so much for all of that.

We're also learning more about why Wisconsin Democrats and Republicans voted the way they did. Feelings about the federal government and which candidate could actually bring change were front and center.

And Christine Romans is back with the deciding factors in the Wisconsin primary. What are you seeing, Christine?

ROMANS: Well, I'm seeing clearly that Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders dominated that primary. But there were some surprises in the exit polling. Eighty-seven percent, 87 percent of Republican voters either angry or dissatisfied with the federal government.

Now, Trump usually does very well with this group here. But Cruz crushed Trump with that 52 percent. Fifty-two percent said that they were dissatisfied going to Cruz. Trump was just 29 percent.

Now, we asked voters which candidate can bring needed change. This was close. Trump and Cruz very close here. But who can win in November? Wisconsin voters overwhelmingly chose Ted Cruz: 68 percent, Trump grabbing a 20 percent of that category, Kasich coming in at 13 percent.

Also on the Republican side, we asked when did you decide whom to vote for? Donald Trump scores half of all voters who say they decided before last month. Ted Cruz a distant second. Trump supporters, it looks like here, are loyal.

But voters who made their decision within the last month, they flocked to Ted Cruz, 62 percent, showing some of that momentum there in the rough past few weeks for Donald Trump.

Finally, on the Democratic side, two surprises, surprises here for Bernie Sanders. Fifty-one percent of Wisconsin voters think he would be a better commander in chief than Hillary Clinton. That's a turnaround from other primary states and a surprise in this poll.

And look at this margin for Sanders: 83 percent saying he is more honest and trustworthy. Clinton coming in with just 16 percent of that category, guys.

CUOMO: All right. Christine, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Another huge number that we're going to talk about is excitement on the Democratic side. Another place that Bernie Sanders really popped last night.

So let's discuss. We have CNN political analyst David Gregory; CNN national political reporter Maeve Reston; and CNN political commentator and political anchor of Time Warner Cable News, Errol Louis.

Errol, you in the hot seat here at the desk here this morning.

Let's look at the side that we were just talking about, the Democratic side. This number, excitement. It was like 86-14 if that adds up to 100 on the side of Bernie Sanders. So that's going to be a big number we want to talk. But let's start with the GOP side. They had those results last night. What's your take?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, when you look at the numbers, I think we had a question that we talked about just the other day. Were the gaffes that Donald Trump committed last week, are they going to affect him?

I think we start to have a piece of the answer. When the late- breaking votes seem to be going to Ted Cruz. When people who are wondering about the ability to win in the fall are breaking toward Ted Cruz, then much of what Ted Cruz said last night really apparently is true, that you know, he's a valid alternative. That if you want to win in November, he's got a case to make. That Trump can't pull it off, and he can.

And that these gaffes that Trump had, this bad week that he had last week, he of course, would sort of shrug off and say, "Oh, I've been written off many times before." But some of this stuff starts to stick. I think people are paying maybe a little bit more attention right now.

[06:10:10] CAMEROTA: But David, was Wisconsin always going to be tough terrain for Donald Trump? Or is what we learned last night in Wisconsin applicable to moving forward?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think it is in two respects. This is certainly a state that should have been good for Donald Trump, if you look at an anti-trade message, you look at working-class white voters. It should have been a strong state for him.

And what you're seeing is that, in the case of Ted Cruz, he's growing in terms of his ability to attract support outside of his normal base, Christian conservative voters. We've seen that he actually grew last night.

Donald Trump is not growing. And he's losing women, losing women badly. His scores are going far down in terms of his ratings among women. That's a worrying sign for the fall, as well, in addition to these contests.

But the challenge is can you take what happens in Wisconsin -- it's certainly a good sign for the anti-Trump forces -- and take it to parts of the country in the northeast, particularly in New York, where Trump is likely to be strong, where if you're Ted Cruz, you've got to do well in those suburban districts to try to peel away delegates.

And when you're dealing with John Kasich, who again doesn't come up with anything last night, is only in this race to try to get to a convention and seem presidential and seem like a winner in the fall, yet can only really hurt Cruz and help Trump, whatever Trump says. A bigger field helps Trump as he goes into these northeastern states.

CUOMO: Although Trump says if it weren't for Kasich in the race, he would have won Ohio, and maybe that would have changed the momentum. But there is no question after Wisconsin, now we now have an acute focus on the numbers like we haven't had before.

Maeve Reston, the magic number, we like to say, 1,237, it's now looking more like almost a Fibonacci number without the golden ratio. You don't have a way now when you look at the delegate math. He has to win 60 percent to get to that number, Donald Trump. He does not win 60 percent of delegates. Nobody wins, you could say, because of the field.

So how real after Wisconsin is convention?

MAEVE RESTON, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it's a pretty real thing that's going to happen here. And it's very difficult to say to see, after last night. Looking at that 60 percent number, as you just mentioned, from Donald Trump, who has not been hitting that kind of threshold in any of these states, it is so difficult to see how we could end up in a scenario where we don't have a contested convention.

You know, the anti-Trump forces clearly made a big push in Wisconsin. The saw this as their last stand. I was talking to some of the folks who were involved in that effort last night. And they said that this win last night is going to be amazing for their fundraising abilities. They're now going to be focusing on flipping delegates in the states coming up.

And, you know, I think we just have to also look ahead at Donald Trump's delegate operation. He has been hiring people to come in and help him scoop up those delegates and make sure that he has them locked down for the convention. But I was making a lot of calls to Colorado, where there's a lot

of unbound delegates at stake this weekend. And they're just not seeing real evidence of Donald Trump's effort there yet. And Ted Cruz is looking strong. So...

CUOMO: Arizona and Louisiana, too, which could be big states.

RESTON: Right.

CUOMO: Trump got all the delegates in Arizona. But Cruz's people are on the ground working those people. They could change their mind.

CAMEROTA: Right.

GREGORY: And Chris, I think the other thing is, let's remember that we talk about a magic number, but it's not an objective math question. In other words, if you're not at 1,237, then it's not game over. This is a negotiation, and the negotiation will be ongoing, as you just alluded to, and certainly at the convention, where if he's anywhere close, I spoke to some top Republicans who have him close.

Yes, he needs about 60 percent but that he gets to maybe 1,208. If he's within 100, you know, it's not that hard to pick up extra delegates at that point. It could be a negotiation. This is where Trump's negotiation skills could actually help him.

And I think that's what's important to remember, which is how close does he have to get to not be denied?

CAMEROTA: Donald Trump did something interesting last night. He eschewed the cameras. He did not make any statement. But he did put out a written statement. It's long. I'm going to read it. Get comfortable, everyone. It takes a while, but it's interesting. And it certainly bears reading here.

Here it is: "Donald J. Trump withstood the onslaught of the establishment yet again. Lying Ted Cruz had the governor of Wisconsin, many conservative talk radio show hosts, and the entire party apparatus behind him. Not only was he propelled by the anti- Trump super PACs spending countless millions of dollars on false advertising against Mr. Trump, but he was coordinating with his own super PACs, which is illegal, who totally control him.

"Ted Cruz is worse than a puppet. He's a Trojan horse being used by the party bosses, attempting to steal the nomination from Mr. Trump. We have total confidence that Mr. Trump will go on to win New York, where he hold a substantial lead in all the polls, and beyond. Mr. Trump is the only candidate who can secure the delegates needed to win the Republican nomination and ultimately defeat Hillary Clinton, or whomever is the Democratic nominee, in order to Make America Great Again."

[06:15:05] Errol, there's a lot there. He's accusing Ted Cruz of a crime.

LOUIS: Yes, yes. You know, I doubt there will be much follow-up to that. I don't know if the, you know, attorney general is going to look into this at all.

But, you know, what's interesting is what's missing from that statement, which is Donald Trump -- I, Donald Trump, can unify the Republican Party. In fact, this does just the opposite, accusing someone of a federal crime, sort of saying that something is going to be stolen from him, when in fact, as we've just discussed, you don't get to be the nominee unless you have the -- a majority of the delegates. And that's just -- you know, that's the way it's always been.

CUOMO: That's the big headline. This is the big fear going into this convention, the big fear for the RNC. Is Donald Trump saying, "They're taking this from me?" That triggers the pledge. That triggers their "If you're fair to me, I'll respect the pledge." If he isn't...

CAMEROTA: He's already planting the seeds. I mean, more than just this statement.

CUOMO: I'd say it's a sapling.

CAMEROTA: Yes, it has sprouted.

LOUIS: And the problem is that these Republicans see a calamity, in their view. They view, a lot of Republicans -- who look at the polling last night. The percent, I think it was 60 percent of the non-Trump voter is really worried that he could get the nomination. And yet, they haven't proven to be very effective and kind of uniting forces against him, with Kasich still in the race.

CAMEROTA: OK. Panel, thank you very much. We'll talk to you momentarily on the other side. Let's get over to Michaela.

PEREIRA: In fact, we will. Bernie Sanders tasting victory again. That means it's seven wins for the Vermont senator in the last eight contests. Sanders says Hillary Clinton ought to be nervous. Is there something to that? Our panel will discuss it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:20:43] SANDERS: With our victory tonight in Wisconsin, we have won seven out of eight of the last caucuses.

And we have won almost all of them with overwhelming landslide numbers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right. Bernie Sanders continuing his winning streak in Wisconsin, building momentum as the Democratic candidates battle for the next big contest in New York. So what does this mean for Hillary Clinton?

Let's bring back Errol Louis, Jeff Zeleny and David Gregory.

So, Jeff, is this a turning point what happened last night?

ZELENY: It's not in terms of the math. This is a point where we can't say often enough it's different for Democrats and Republicans how they select their nominees. And for the math, Hillary Clinton lost a touch of ground last night in Wisconsin. Even a win this big is probably only going to net her about 10 more delegates.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Give the numbers. Alisyn's right. Give the numbers, because that doesn't sound compelling to people right now. They're like, "Seven out of eight states, I mean, Bernie is on a roll. What do you mean? What do you mean?" So let's lay it out for people.

CAMEROTA: I think he have. It's 40 -- I think he got 46 delegates, and she got 36.

ZELENY: Right.

CAMEROTA: So that doesn't seem like a landslide. And if you look at where they are now, she's still at 1,778, I believe; and he's at 1,097.

ZELENY: But those are the only good numbers for Hillary Clinton. If you look across the board, excitement, 14 percent of Democratic voters are excited about the prospect of a historic candidacy? A person that could be the first woman president? That is a big problem for them. Independent voters, young voters, even women voters. Bernie

Sanders split the women vote in Wisconsin. That -- there are worry signs up and down the line here. But she still holds a -- you know, a big lead in delegates. And that's an issue.

CUOMO: Worth -- it's worth marinating on this, though, just for a second. You know, David, sometimes it sounds like, you know, don't hype, don't hype this return too much. I don't think it's hyping it too much. I mean, sometimes you have a primary that gives you a window into the actual state of play. Do you believe that that's what Wisconsin is for the Democrats?

GREGORY: Well, I think yes and no. Yes, in this sense, because I think the enthusiasm factor matters. Independent voters. Also, the level of distrust that even primary voters have for Hillary Clinton. That is certainly going to become true in spades once we get to a general election, that there are voters who don't trust her, who don't think that she's honest.

So that hope factor, you know, that hope and enthusiasm that Barack Obama had in 2008 is not something that she has as a potentially historical candidate herself, being the first woman president.

But a little bit of history is instructive. Dan Pfeiffer was on Twitter last night. Of course, worked on the Obama White House, worked on the Obama campaign. He reminds us that, "Back in 2008 we lost six of the last nine contests and some by some very large margins."

So this goes to Jeff's point, which is it's the math that matters now, not the raw vote in these states in terms of how many delegates that you get as far as you move forward.

CAMEROTA: So if it's the math that matters, Errol, Bernie Sanders' campaign is predicting that there will be a contested convention on the Democratic side. And he says that they say they will catch up to Hillary Clinton in pledged delegates. Is that -- is that what we're looking at?

LOUIS: That may or may not happen, of course. But I mean, David raises an excellent point, which is that you go back to 2008, there was a lot of tension. And it was really kind of up in the air right up until the convention, although it was clear that Obama at the time had a delegate lead. There were a lot of different scenarios that you could maybe sort of raid the super delegates and see if you could pull them over. That you could sort of make a case that in the last few, especially some of the big ones like California, that you know, maybe there could be a surge.

And so Bernie Sanders has every reason to feel not quite confident but to feel energized that he's got a path to something that could be called victory.

And let's keep in mind that victory doesn't necessarily mean the nomination, right? I mean, there are rules changes. There are discussions about policy points. There's the rest of the ticket. There's a lot of different things that the Sanders forces might want out of this election. And all of that is going to be an ongoing discussion.

[06:25:03] CUOMO: Zeleny, you have such great sourcing on all of this stuff. I mean, Sanders represents everything that Hillary Clinton isn't to the party. This is the party we're talking about.

ZELENY: Right.

CUOMO: And if these numbers exist within the party, that does have to make you nervous about what happens without the party, outside of it. How much of that are you hearing?

ZELENY: No doubt. I mean, just look how she has changed as a candidate already. I mean, she has -- we've seen a shift to the left throughout, you know, for the last -- she's been in this race, what, almost a year? In about a week or so, it will be a year.

And boy, this is not the type of candidate she thought she would be. She thought she would be moderating already. But she is to left here. She's trying to win over, you know, these Sanders supporters. He has changed this conversation and this race more than anything.

But the biggest thing is money. No one ever expected Bernie Sanders to raise this money. There are 15 million reasons why the Clinton campaign in Brooklyn is upset. She want -- he raised $44 million the month of March. She only raised 29 million. That's why this race is going on. More than any of the other thing that's different in '08 and the delegate math, that's why Bernie Sanders is staying, and that's why New York is a firewall, a critical, critical firewall.

GREGORY: I do think...

CAMEROTA: Yes, go ahead, David.

GREGORY: I just think the Clinton campaign also wants focus on Sanders in the way that we also focus on Trump, which is on his credentials, on his overall policy positions, his platform, his acumen on foreign policy, his ability to get elected in the fall where she far outshines him in these exit polls.

And his answers to "The New York Daily News" shows some deficiencies on policy areas beyond -- even in his areas having to do with trade or breaking the banks. So these are potential weaknesses for him that sometimes get subsumed by all the open, all the enthusiasm around his candidacy.

CUOMO: Not at the polls, though. When you look at the polls, it's baked in. When you look at the percentages, when people take the time and crosstabs to say, "Do you think he can get this stuff done?" The numbers aren't great for Bernie Sanders. So a little bit of that is baked in. And they're still going for him. So that's why it's such a race.

CAMEROTA: Panel, thank you. Great to talk to you this morning.

CUOMO: All right. So what does the candidate have to say about this named Hillary Clinton? We're going to talk to her at 11 Eastern about what Wisconsin means, what the path forward is, and we will ask her to check the boxes on all these issues you're hearing lined out here. The candidate is the best to answer them, and that's what we're going to ask.

CAMEROTA: And Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders will square off in a CNN debate in Brooklyn. This is next Thursday, April 14, five days before the New York primary. Do not miss that -- Michaela.

PEREIRA: Another important story. There's a growing backlash in Mississippi over a new law that allows businesses to deny service to the LGBT community. Major corporations in the state are pushing back and pushing back hard. Will that be enough to overturn the measure? We'll look at that, ahead on NEW DAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)