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Clinton & Sanders Go on the Attack in CNN Debate; Trump Op-ed Blasts "Rigged" GOP Delegate System. Aired 5-5:30a ET

Aired April 15, 2016 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:03:42] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to a special post-debate edition of your NEW DAY. It is Friday, April 15th. Do not adjust your clocks. It is 5:00 a.m. in the East.

And the battle in Brooklyn turning out to be more like a bare knuckle brawl. Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders clashing on policy and judgment at last night's CNN Democratic debate. Their exchanges are testier than ever.

So, how did last night change the race?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: So, while the Democrats are trying to eat each other's lunch at the debate, the three Republican candidates were eating dinner at a GOP gala in New York City.

Things get a little raucous outside with anti-Trump protesters. So, the question coming out of that situation was, how did the three men handle each other face to face?

We have all the ramifications and repercussions from last night. Let's begin with John Berman breaking down last night's Brooklyn brawl -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Chris, this is what it looks like when two candidates are sick of each other. This is what it looks like when two candidates are sick of fighting trying to stop fighting with each other. Last night was a giant airing of grievances.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN (voice-over): You want contrast?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do question her judgment.

BERMAN: You want contentious?

[05:05:00] HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Describing the problem is a lot easier than trying to solve it.

BERMAN: You got Brooklyn. A high tension, high drama debate befitting the high stakes of the moment.

From the start, Bernie Sanders blasted Hillary Clinton's judgment.

SANDERS: I question a judgment which voted for the war in Iraq and I question her judgment about running super PACs.

CLINTON: This is a question designed to raise questions when there is no evidence or support to undergird that insinuation that he is putting forward in these attacks.

BERMAN: But nearly every Sanders salvo was met by a Clinton call for specifics, including his suggestion that she is in the pocket of big banks.

SANDERS: When millions of people lost their jobs and their homes and their life savings, the obvious response to that is you got a bunch of fraudulent operators and that they have got to be broken up. That was my view way back and I introduced legislation to do that.

Now, Secretary Clinton was giving speeches to Goldman Sachs for $225,000 a speech.

CLINTON: He cannot come up with an example because there is no example. It's always important. It maybe inconvenient, but it is always important to get the facts straight.

I stood up against the behaviors of the banks when I was a senator. I called them out on their mortgage behavior.

SANDERS: Secretary Clinton called them out. Oh, my goodness. They must have been really crushed by this. And was that before or after you received huge sums of money by giving speaking engagements?

BERMAN: Speeches for which Hillary Clinton still says she will not release the transcripts.

CLINTON: Let's set the same standard for everybody, when everybody does it, OK, I will do it.

BERMAN: The Brooklyn brawl ran so hot at times, the fighters needed to be separated by the ref.

SANDERS: I'm sure a lot of people are surprised to learn you support raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour.

CLINTON: Wait a minute -- wait a minute. I have stood on the debate stage with Senator Sanders eight prior times.

(CROSSTALK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN MODERATOR: Secretary, Senator, please --

(CROSSTALK)

CLINTON: Let's do it.

BLITZER: If you are both screaming at each other, the viewers will not hear either of you. CLINTON: I have said from the very beginning that I supported the

fight for 15. I supported those on the frontlines of the fight. It happens to be true.

SANDERS: Well, I think the secretary is confused a lot of people. I don't know how you are for the fight for 15 when you say you wanted $12 an hour national minimum wage.

BERMAN: Then, there were decisions about contrition. Clinton offering an apology of sorts for the 1994 crime bill her husband signed into law.

CLINTON: I'm sorry for the consequences that were unintended and have had a very unfortunate impact on people's lives.

BERMAN: But Sanders when pushed with no apology for his positions on gun control.

SANDERS: I don't believe it is appropriate that a gun shop owner who just sold a legal weapon to be held accountable and be sued.

BERMAN: Including no apologies to families of victims of Sandy Hook who have criticized his opposition to some lawsuits against some gun sellers.

SANDERS: I don't think I owe them the apology. They have the right to sue. I support them and anyone else who wants the right to sue.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: I think there is one line from Hillary Clinton that summed up what both sides are trying to make in this debate. It was about the environment. She turned to Bernie Sanders and said, "I don't take a backseat to legislation that you introduced that you haven't been able to get passed." It's that distinction between dreaming and doing, and I think again, both sides might be happy with those decisions -- guys.

CAMEROTA: All right. John, thanks so much for giving us all of that. If case anybody was sleeping last night, here to breakdown some of the key moments from last night's political analyst and host of "The David Gregory Show" podcast, David Gregory, Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast", Jackie Kucinich, and CNN senior political analyst and senior editor for "The Atlantic", Ron Brownstein.

Guys, great to have you here.

David, what's your take away?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think, you know, a lot of points scored on both sides, a pretty contentious affair. It does shows at this stage of the campaign, they are getting sick of each other. They're getting under each other's skin.

And I do think, as John said, you have a real contrast. Two different visions about how to make government operate. What issues to take on? Bernie Sanders is much more of idealist within the party, a progressive within the party, who wants to put on the agenda issues that are worthy for discussion that progressives care about. Whether or not there is a legislative path for getting some of the things accomplished, it's talking about them, it's asserting them, it's standing up for them that his supporters and others in the party think is appropriate and important.

[05:10:05] Whereas, Hillary Clinton is on the other side saying look, I may agree with some of these things and disagree with others. You have to concentrate on what you can get done. I think that's the contrast that we're seeing play out for voters. And I'm not sure that last night moved a lot in terms of the argument that we're seeing in the New York primary and beyond.

CUOMO: That's the key. The line we like to play with in the campaign in poetry and you govern in prose. That doesn't sound very satisfying on the stump, right? I mean, this is the time to push people's imaginations and get them ginned up and the expecting electorate always believe that they'll be a level of disappointment once you actually get in.

But that being said, do you believe that either one of them moved the ball on that issue of who will be able to get an agenda?

JACKIE KUCINICH, THE DAILY BEAST: I don't think so. I really think that this sort of solidified what they have been saying on the campaign trail. They started at 11 and stayed at 11 the entire debate for two hours.

But, no, I think Bernie Sanders reiterated what he needed to. Hillary Clinton, though, I mean, pragmatism doesn't set the world on fire. And she showed some passion and some fire last night that probably gave her supporters a little bit more --

CUOMO: Here it is. Let's play what Jackie is talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: We have got to understand, that in America we should be thinking big, not small.

CLINTON: I think you've got to go at this with a sense of how to accomplish the goal we are setting.

SANDERS: You know agreements and I know agreements. There's a lot of paper. We have to get beyond paper right now. Incrementalism and those little steps are not enough.

CLINTON: I don't take a backseat to your legislation that you introduced that you haven't been able to get passed. I want to do what we can do to actually make progress in dealing with the crisis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: There you go. I mean, that's it right there in stark relief. The idealism versus incrementalism. So, which one do you like, you know?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, exactly right. I mean, look, you saw the race condensed at points in a few moments. I mean, I thought when they were talking about her support of fracking abroad. He kind of let the standard we should not be for this.

There are countries that are relying today on coal and they're a long way from solar and wind. Fracking is a natural gas important, incremental step of progress. I do think it does crystallize the choice based in the party. It's hard to move the needle at this point in the debate, at this point in the race, the grooves are pretty deeply cut.

But there's also I think, the Democrats have to come to terms with why so many voters are responding of swinging for the fences. On the other hand, if you are debating to raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour or $15 an hour, and you still have a Republican House, that really is like irrigating Mars with fresh water or salt water.

So, I mean, there is that risk of kind of seething and get more disappointment. Donald Trump could have the same risk on the other side if he is the nominee.

GREGORY: But I think it's important, you see it on the right. How many Republicans in exit polls are talking about betrayal with the Republican Party, that they didn't fight Barack Obama harder, that they didn't stand up for principles more. I think that the voters who are conditioned to disappointment think, well, what we've got to lose? At least we should stand for certain principles in the race.

And I think --

BROWNSTEIN: The paradox is frustration with the realities of divided government, and the limits of the ability of either side to move forward their agenda that is generating this demand and there's audience on each side for even more -- you know, even more extreme kind of movement away from the center and the difficulty of imagining how you do that stuff in a country that is still pretty closely divided overall.

CUOMO: That's the existential crisis for the Democrats.

We know what the right has decided. They're going to be disruptive. You know, everything is wrong. Everything is bad. Let's get in there, and then dot, dot, dot. You know, we'll see what happens.

The left, not so clear. What was clear to me, Jackie, last night, is that we saw Bernie Sanders for the first time coming at you not as a critic, as an alternative.

He was arguing last night that, no, no, I'm the guy. I can be the guy. It's not just we've got to think about it. Did you pick that up?

KUCINICH: Yes, he is the disrupter that you're talking about on the left. And he is saying it is time for that. That's what you hear from his people.

I mean, to David's point, I was talking to people at Al Sharpton's event yesterday who were Bernie Sanders supporters, who weren't necessarily teenagers or in their 20s. They were, you know, in their 60s.

And what they were saying was what you were saying -- we have been promised a lot by politicians. Hillary Clinton promised a lot when she was senator from New York that she couldn't get done. I like what Bernie Sanders is promising. And if he can -- if there is a chance, he can get it done, just a little chance, I'm going to vote for him.

GREGORY: But there are voters I talked to over Twitter. I was talking about this last night, somebody said, look, I -- he's got my heart. She's got my head. I do want to see from him a plan of action.

And I think that was exploited again by her. And I think the larger point, too, is what did Sanders do last night that helps him on what Ron talks so much about, the demographics of the race.

[05:15:05] How does he expand his base of support --

CUOMO: What is the last campaign that won on a plan?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, look --

GREGORY: Right. No, no, I agree with that.

BROWNSTEIN: At this point in the race, the grooves are cut deeply. He has had a very good period. He is now heading into a difficult period because we've got all the states in the Northeast where the primaries are closed, only Democrats can vote, and there are a lot of African-American voters, and those are both been tough conditions for him, then you go into May, it's going to get better.

You know, demography trumps momentum I think in presidential campaigns at this point. So, you know, you can see the rhythm of where it is going forward.

KUCINICH: He is still pulling in money, those $27 donations, average $27, they add up. And he every reason to keep going as long as his supporters keep fueling his campaign.

BROWNSTEIN: For everything we're seeing, I think we all agree that the candidates or politicians are operating within the conventional parameters, whether it's Paul Ryan or Hillary Clinton. They have to reckon with why so many voters, so many millennials on the Democratic side, so many blue collar whites on the Republican side, are flocking to alternatives that in the past would have been considered unrealistic or beyond the pale.

I mean, there is a level of frustration in the system that people are operating within the system have to figure out a way to deal with.

CAMEROTA: We see that last night. Panel, thank you. Stick around. We have a lot more to talk about.

Coming up on NEW DAY, we'll hear from both campaigns. Sanders campaign manager Jeff Weaver, and Clinton's chief strategist Joel Benenson will join us live in our 7:00 hour. So, stick around for that.

Michaela?

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Well, fireworks of a different kind in Manhattan, across the river from the Democratic debate. Hundreds of anti-Trump protesters crashing a New York City hotel last night where the three Republican candidates addressed a GOP gala.

Also this morning, Donald Trump intensifying the war with the Republican Party in a new op-ed railing on a rigged system for selecting delegates.

Our senior political reporter Manu Raju live in Washington with all of this -- Manu.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Good morning, Michaela.

Donald Trump is not backing down from his war of words -- war of words with the Republican National Committee, hoping to continue to tap into frustration with the party establishment. In today's "Wall Street Journal", he writes what, "What we are seeing now is not a proper use of the rules, but a flagrant abuse of the rules. Delegates are supposed to reflect the decision of voters, but the system is rigged with operatives with double agent delegates who reject the decision of voters."

Now, last night, Trump was joined by his two rivals John Kasich and Ted Cruz inside a New York Republican Party event, where Trump continued to seize on Cruz's criticism of New York values. And Trump was greeted more enthusiastically inside the room than outside the room, where hundreds were protesting all ahead of next week's critical primary in New York with 95 delegates at stake. The Trump campaign has a good shot of taking all of them -- Michaela.

PEREIRA: All right, Manu.

We should point, Donald Trump's campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, will join us live in our 7:00 a.m. hour.

CUOMO: All right. So if the polls are right, Bernie Sanders has to make up a double-digit deficit in the next four days. So, what's the plus/minus on last night? Did he gain ground with this Brooklyn debate performance? You're going to hear from the Vermont senator about how he thinks he did, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[05:22:18] PEREIRA: Bernie Sanders feeling confident going into the New York primary as he heads off attacks by Hillary Clinton's campaign. Here's what Bernie Sanders told CNN's senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny after last night's bruising debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: My view is that I have a d minus voting record from the NRA. I supported the president on every major gun legislation and initiative that he's brought forth. In terms of expanding the instant background check, doing away with the gun show lobby, doing away with this straw man situation, we've got to get guns out of the hands of people that should not have them. I think, you know, that is my view.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: But why not say you are holding that view when you were senator from Vermont, as president, you might have a different view?

SANDERS: Well, my view is what it is. That is we have to do everything we can to get guns out. I tell you something else -- it is very easy to have a point of view which I not going to go any place. I honestly believe -- you know, we've got 50 states in the country. If we succeed and do more than give speeches, we have to create consensus. I believe there is consensus out there which wants to make certain we get guns out of the hands of people who do not have them.

But, you know, there are issues where we disagree today. I think the world has seen this. Secretary Clinton has a super PAC. She has a 401 -- a PAC, an organization that raises money without allowing disclosure. I don't think you are able to convince ordinary Americans in New York or any place else that you're going to stand up to the drug companies who are ripping us off or Wall Street when you take their money.

ZELENY: On the crime bill, Secretary Clinton says she regrets support for the 1994 crime bill. But you actually voted for it. Yes or no, do you regret your vote for that bill?

SANDERS: In retrospect, it was a vote that led to a lot of awful things, there were good.

But here's a difficult -- you can't say in retrospect. If I had voted the other way, you will hear Hillary Clinton say Bernie Sanders, you have an opportunity to vote against the banned assault weapons, you didn't do that. You have an opportunity to calm down, deal with domestic violence and vote for the Violence Against Women Act. You cannot look at it like that.

What I do know is that Bill has caused disastrous problems in mass incarceration. We need to radically reform a broken criminal justice system.

But I think the differences between the secretary and me come down to a simple reality. I don't believe you're going to make the changes you need for working families unless you stand up to the big money interests. I don't think you're going to stand up to the big money interests when you take their money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: There you go.

PEREIRA: It was interesting.

[05:25:00] What David Gregory said a voter told him last night is so interesting. He, Bernie Sanders, has his heart. Hillary Clinton has his head. And that is really a fundamental difference between so many people's votes.

CUOMO: He's going to hear one of those quotes to Jeff Zeleny again in a context he doesn't like. He says, it is easy to have a point of view that's not going to go anywhere. You need consensus. That is exactly the case against him --

CAMEROTA: Right.

CUOMO: -- by the Clinton campaign when it comes to some of his bigger, more ambitious proposals, that you can hold the view, but can you get it to go anywhere?

CAMEROTA: Very interestingly, as we speak, Bernie Sanders is on a plane headed to Rome. He's going to give a ten-minute speech at the Vatican. He was invited to speak on social justice and the world economy. Many people think that is a peculiar choice, just days before the New York primary. That's what he's doing this weekend.

CUOMO: He says it was an invitation that was too good to pass up.

PEREIRA: It does seem like an invitation you can't turn down.

CAMEROTA: There you go.

All right. Devastation in southwestern Japan to tell you about. There's been this massive earthquake collapsing buildings and tearing apart towns. Search teams are digging through the rubble for survivors. We have the latest on the disaster just ahead on NEW DAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)