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Clinton & Sanders Go on the Attack in CNN Debate; Trump Op-Ed Blasts 'Rigged' GOP Delegate System. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired April 15, 2016 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Sanders did call me unqualified. That was a first.

[05:59:04] SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do we really feel confident about a candidate so dependent on big money interests?

CLINTON: I stood up against the behaviors of the banks.

SANDERS: Secretary Clinton called them out. Oh, my goodness. They must have been really crushed by this.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: God bless the great state of New York.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What are New York values? Honesty and straight talking.

CRUZ: I haven't built any buildings, but I have spent my entire life fighting to defend the Constitution.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We risk losing everything.

TRUMP: Isn't it amazing the way some names just stick to people?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your post-debate edition of NEW DAY. It is Friday, April 15, 6 a.m. in the east.

So when you are on the docks in Brooklyn at night, there may be a fight. And there was last night. Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton were just a couple "hey-hos" away from a huge brawl breaking out there at the CNN Democratic debate. Both candidates looking to land a knockout punch with the New York primary now just four days away.

So what changed last night in this race?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: You went full Sopranos there for a second with "hey, ho."

While the Democrats debated, the Republicans dined. Donald Trump and Ted Cruz and John Kasich all speaking at a GOP gala in Manhattan where outside hundreds of anti-Trump protestors demonstrated.

This morning, Trump is asking voters one big question in a new op-ed.

We have the 2016 election covered the way only CNN can. Let's begin with John Berman breaking down the Brooklyn debate.

Hi, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Alisyn, bright lights, big city, big debate. The biggest yet. And in some ways the most bruising yet. Two candidates on stage who really wanted to end this whole thing right there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN (voice-over): You want contrast?

SANDERS: I do question her judgment.

BERMAN: You want contentious?

CLINTON: Describing the problem is a lot easier than trying to solve it.

BERMAN: You've got Brooklyn, a high-tension, high-drama debate befitting the high stakes of the moment. From the start, Bernie Sanders blasted Hillary Clinton's judgment.

SANDERS: I question a judgment which voted for the war in Iraq. And I question her judgment about wanting super PACs.

CLINTON: This is a phony attack that is designed to raise questions when there is no evidence or support to undergird the insinuations that he is putting forward in these attacks.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Secretary.

BERMAN: Nearly every Sanders salvo was met by a Clinton call for specifics, including his suggestion that she is in the pocket of big banks.

SANDERS: When millions of people lost their jobs and their homes and their life savings, the obvious response to that is that you got a bunch of fraudulent operators and that they have got to be broken up. That was my view way back. And I introduced legislation to do that.

Now, Secretary Clinton was busy giving speeches to Goldman Sachs for $225,000 a speech.

CLINTON: He cannot come up with any example, because there is no example. It always important -- it may be inconvenient, but it's always important to get the facts straight. I stood up against the behaviors of the banks when I was a senator. I

called them out on their mortgage behavior.

SANDERS: Secretary Clinton called them out. Oh, my goodness. They must have been really crushed by this. And was that before or after you received huge sums of money by giving speaking engagements behind them?

BERMAN: Speeches for which Hillary Clinton still says she will not release the transcripts.

CLINTON: Let's set the same standard for everybody. When everybody does it, OK, I will do it.

BERMAN: The Brooklyn brawl ran so hot at times the fighters needed to be separated by the ref.

SANDERS: I am sure a lot of people are very surprised to learn you supported raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour.

CLINTON: Wait a minute, wait a minute.

SANDERS: That is not accurate.

CLINTON: I have stood on the debate stage with Senator Sanders either other times...

SANDERS: Excuse me.

CLINTON: I have said...

BLITZER: Secretary, Senator, please.

CLINTON: ... if we can raise it in New York or Los Angeles or Seattle, let's do.

BLITZER: If you're both screaming at each other, the viewers won't be able to hear either of you.

CLINTON: I have said from the very beginning that I supported the fight for 15. I supported those on the front lines of the fight for -- it happens to be true.

SANDERS: Well, I think the secretary is confused. A lot of people, I don't know how you're there for the fight for 15 when you say you want a $12 an hour national minimum wage.

BERMAN: Then there were decisions about contrition, Clinton offering an apology of sorts for the 1994 Crime Bill her husband signed into law.

CLINTON: I'm sorry for the consequences that were unintended and that have had a very unfortunate impact on people's lives.

BERMAN: But Sanders, when pushed with no apology for his positions on gun control. SANDERS: I don't believe it is appropriate that a gun shop owner who

just sold a legal weapon to be held accountable and be sued.

BERMAN: Including no apologies to families of victims of Sandy Hook, who have criticized his opposition to some lawsuit against some gun sellers.

SANDERS: I don't think I owe them an apology. They have the right to sue. And I support them and anyone else who wants the right to sue.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: You heard Hillary Clinton say it's easy to diagnose a problem. It's harder to do something about that problem. And that was the division that both candidates made last night, the division between dreaming and doing. And that's really the division between the supporters of both campaigns, as well -- Michaela.

[06:05:02] MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, John. Thanks so much.

Well, we happened to catch up with Bernie Sanders after that fiery debate. He sounded off on a number of issues, including Hillary Clinton's super PAC, his stance on gun control. Here's what he told our senior Washington correspondent, Jeff Zeleny.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANDERS: My view is that I have a D minus voting record...

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Right.

SANDERS: ... from the NRA. I've supported the president on every major gun legislation and initiative that he's brought forth. In terms of expanding instant background check, doing away with the gun show lobby, doing away with this straw man situation. We've got to get guns out of the hands of people who should not have them.

But I think, you know, they're -- that is my view.

ZELENY: But why not say that you are holding that view and you're a senator from Vermont. As president, you might have a different view.

SANDERS: But my view is what it is. And that is we have got to do everything we can to get guns out.

And I'll tell you something else. It's very easy to have a point of view which is not going to go anyplace. I honestly believe -- you know, we've got 50 states in this country. And if we're going to succeed and do more than give speeches, we have to create a consensus. And I believe there is a consensus out there which wants to make certain that we get guns out of the hands of people who do [SIC] not have them.

But you know, there are issues like where we disagreed today. And I think the world has seen this. Secretary Clinton has a super PAC. She has a 401, a PAC, an organization that raises money without allowing disclosure. I don't think you're able to convince ordinary Americans in New York or anyplace else that you're going to stand up to the drug companies who are ripping us off or Wall Street when you take their money.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: High points, low points? Discuss. We have CNN political analyst and host of "The David Gregory Show" podcast, David Gregory. You can subscribe today, the first day you can, to the podcast. No discount for being on the first day. We have the bureau chief of "The Daily Beast," Jackie Kucinich. And we have CNN senior political analyst and senior editor for "The Atlantic" Ron Brownstein.

Can we start where we just finished, brother Gregory? I believe that that was the irony of the night, certainly, for the Clinton campaign. To hear Bernie Sanders say, look, you can have this great point of view. But it may not go anywhere. You need consensus. He was talking about guns. But will that have metaphor effect?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: He's a realist on guns but not anybody else. I mean, not on breaking up the banks or not on, you know, fracking all over the world, not on other issues. So that's something, because this is the knock against him. That he's talking about things that may be important, but a lot of progressives in the country believe him but really don't have an opportunity to get done legislatively.

And so he's talking about them enough? That was his argument when it came to guns. Yet on everything else he's supposed to be believed.

This is really the fault line in the race right now, is Hillary Clinton saying, "Look, you may not like me. I may have been around a long time. I may be part of this establishment, but I know how to work within this system."

He's saying, "No, no, no, I'm going to stay outside the system and really argue strenuously for those things that people believe in, whether they can get done or not." Except on guns, in which case, be a realist.

JACKIE KUCINICH, BUREAU CHIEF, "THE DAILY BEAST": But on the flip side, Hillary Clinton is overpromising on guns. She's saying that she can push through things that can't get through this Congress, that will be blocked by Congress. So it's this weird -- weird role reversal on that issue.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: And one reason that is the fault line: idealism versus pragmatism, is because she has chosen not to challenge him directly on the substance of most of his ideas.

I was struck -- if you think about what happened in the ring last night, it was fascinating. But the ring itself was revealing. Because you see a Democratic Party that clearly believes they have more latitude than they used to to propose an agenda that is to the left of center. Economically, much more populist. Culturally, more consistently liberal across the board.

I mean, the debt -- how far in they went in on gun control, both of them, is a reflection of their belief that they have a different coalition. Because you know, for -- Obama in 2008 didn't run on gun control. Obama in 2012 didn't run on gun control. I mean, this is a different Democratic Party. And we will see in the general election whether they have overshot the mark.

CAMEROTA: The idealism versus pragmatism was on display last night in stark relief. So here are the moments that captured it. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: We have got to understand that in America we should be thinking big, not small.

CLINTON: I think you've got to go at this with a sense of how to accomplish the goal we are setting.

SANDERS: You know agreements, I know agreements. There's a lot of paper there. We've got to get beyond paper right now. Incrementalism and those little steps are not enough.

CLINTON: I don't take a back seat to your legislation that you've introduced that you haven't been able to get passed. I want to do what we can do to actually make progress in dealing with the crisis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So Jackie, what was your takeaway? Was there anything that broke new ground, or did they just put a finer point on it last night?

[06:10:01] KUCINICH: It seems like it was a finer point. It's like all the stump speeches that we've listened to over and over again next to each other, and with the other being able to respond in real-time. And so it really just reinforced what their base has been -- has been saying all along.

However, it did -- it was loud. It was chippy. As we've been saying, these two are sick of each other. They're done with each other. They know that their -- this race isn't big enough for the both of them.

BROWNSTEIN: It got to one -- excuse me. It got to one point in the debate I thought crystallized the entire argument so well, when they were talking about her promotion of fracking abroad as secretary of state. And he's saying, "Look, you know, basically, we can't trust you because you promoted fracking in other countries."

And she was saying if you've got countries that are dependent on coal, and they need something between that and a future of solar and wind, natural gas is a step in the right direction of kind of reducing reliance on carbon-based fuels.

CAMEROTA: Incremental steps.

BROWNSTEIN: And I want to make that progress. And I felt like, in that, what, two minutes you've got the whole race as it stands right now. Again, because she has chosen not to make an ideological argument against some of the proposals that he's made.

CUOMO: Sanders wants the 1994 Crime Bill to be a metaphor to African- American voters in New York state. Remember, a lot of this is geared towards New York. They both think they need to make a special mark here.

But could it be, David, that gun issue is going to be the metaphor issue for African-Americans here? And did Bernie do enough to finesse his way to make himself more sympathetic?

GREGORY: I don't think so. I think she scored on this. Really kind of revealing a long-held view as a Vermont, you know, senator and politician who's much, really, out of sync with where the Democratic Party is on the issue of guns and restricting gun access.

So I think that's a vulnerable point for him. And I certainly think it's a vulnerable point politically in a state like New York. I think there's no doubt about it. And I think, you know, the issue of the '90s Crime Bill, but that is interesting.

This is part of what happens when you're in public life for a long time. You know, that the trends within the party, sociologically and even from a policy perspective, things do change, and they evolve, and the politics change, and she has to answer for all that.

It's not enough say, yes, my president has signed that bill. She has got to own some of that. And it's a big part of the legacy to own.

KUCINICH: When I asked her supporters who are African-American about this over the last couple days, and what they said is they forgive her. She apologized. And they're ready to move on.

BROWNSTEIN: They're forgiving. Also, the reality is you had the leading African-American big-city mayors supporting and even demanding the bill. You know, it's hard to understand -- it's what is called presentism, you know, among historians. It's hard to understand the context in which that bill was passed. The violent crime rate was almost double what it is. There were 2,200 people murdered in New York City in the year 1990. And in fact, it did divide the African- American community. It divided liberals. But if you look at who voted for it, who was advocating it, there was substantial support across the Democratic coalition.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Which is why it's interesting that last night she chose to apologize for the unintended consequences of it. Well, in hindsight, there's always unintended consequences.

BROWNSTEIN: Right.

CAMEROTA: Is that -- was that wise of her?

BROWNSTEIN: I think you continue the strategy. She is not making an -- she is not drawing an ideological line with Bernie Sanders. She is reflecting the changing nature of the Democratic coalition. It is more liberal. There are fewer culturally conservative working-class whites who are part of the Democratic coalition, the people that we grew up with Queens. Fewer of them -- fewer of them are Democrats. They've been replaced by millennials and minorities which have moved the whole center of gravity of the party to the left. And he said that 40 percent of the voters in this primary say they're moderate or conservative overall than Democrats, and she's winning them.

GREGORY: But look at minimum wage...

BROWNSTEIN: All these issues.

GREGORY: ... or health care. She's like, sure, universal health care, all for it. If we can get there, we'll get there. Let's not have another fight over health care right now. That's not realistic.

You want $15 a wage, she's like, "Great, if we can get there. How about we do $12. Let's see if we can get it done. If we can get to $15, great." So to Ron's point, there's no huge cleavage between what they both believe. It's how you get there. That's the fault line.

CAMEROTA: We're going to talk about all that policy coming up momentarily.

CUOMO: We're going to hear from both the campaigns also. We have Sanders' campaign manager, Jeff Weaver, and Clinton's chief strategist, Joel Benenson. They're going to both join us in the 7 a.m. hour. No better way, Mick, to get a sense of where these campaigns are headed than from the guys that are directing the show.

PEREIRA: That's right. Absolutely.

Well, meanwhile, Donald Trump's war with the GOP intensifying this morning, the Republican front-runner blasting what he calls a rigged delegate system and asking voters if the system working for them in a new op-ed. Our senior political reporter, Manu Raju, is live in Washington with more.

Good morning once again.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela.

The New York primary just days away, where 95 delegates are at stake. And Donald Trump needing a big win to reboot the race. To do that, Trump is trying to accomplish something he has been successful at this campaign season: fomenting anger at the party establishment.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RAJU (voice-over): This morning Donald Trump speaking out against the Republican Party in a new op-ed in "The Wall Street Journal," appealing directly to Americans about the voting system he believes is corrupt, asking, "How has the 'system' been working for you and your family?"

[06:15:09] Airing his grievances about how delegates were selected in the state of Colorado, he writes, "Delegates were chosen on behalf of a presidential nominee. Yet the people of Colorado were not able to cast their ballots to say which nominee they preferred."

While last night hundreds of protesters gathered outside a black-tie GOP fund-raising event in New York City. Inside, all three remaining Republican candidates sharing the stage.

TRUMP: I love to speak at the Grand Hyatt, because I built this hotel.

RAJU: Front-runner Donald Trump touting and using the platform to once again slam Ted Cruz's critique of New York values.

TRUMP: The people in the Towers who helped rescue each other, those are those of New York values.

RAJU: The New York crowd seemingly ignoring the Texas senator during his speech.

CRUZ: I will admit to you I haven't built any buildings in New York City, but I have spent my entire life fight to go defend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

RAJU: And without directly naming his opponents, Governor John Kasich wasting little time attacking Cruz and Trump's unpopularity among the American public, painting a grim picture of what he says is at stake in this election.

KASICH: Do you know what will happen if we nominate people who have high negatives and cannot beat Hillary? We risk losing everything from the White House, to the courthouse, to the statehouse.

RAJU: Now yesterday, Trump's campaign also began weekly outreach meetings with members of Congress. And at that meeting, senior Trump advisor Ed Brookover told about a half dozen House Republicans that the campaign would clinch the nomination in the June primary in California.

When I asked Brookover about the possibility of a contested convention, he predicted it wouldn't happen, saying they are on a, quote, "glide path" to the nomination. It just shows how much the Trump campaign needs to win the nomination outright starting in New York next week, or it could be a big problem for him in Cleveland this summer, Michaela.

PEREIRA: We're going to hear more Manu from team Trump. Coming up later this morning, Corey Lewandowski will join us in the 7 a.m. hour. And then in the 8 a.m. hour, Sam Clovis will be here -- Aly.

CAMEROTA: All right. Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders butting heads on many issues last night, including support for Israel in this heated debate. So our panel looks at who won on the issues, next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: We worked together in the Senate... (END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:21:33] ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Earlier this week at the Apollo Theater in Harlem, you called out President Clinton for defending Secretary Clinton's use of the word "super predator" back in the '90s when she supported the Crime Bill. Why did you call him out?

SANDERS: Because it was a racist term, and everyone knew it was a racist term.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: It's being called their most contentious debate yet, and there was a lot of talk of policy. Bernie Sanders accusing Hillary Clinton of using racist language, as you just heard there, in the 1990s.

Let's dig deeper on all the issues and their policies with our panel. We have David Gregory here, Jackie Kucinich and Errol Louis, CNN political commentator and political anchor at Time Warner Cable News. As you saw, he was one of the questioners at last night's debate.

Errol, let's --let's start with you. Great job last night. So that was an intense moment, where he says it was a racist term, and then the cloud erupted. What did you think of both of their responses to that?

LOUIS: The crowd was erupting all night. I mean, so let's be clear. They came to yell and to shout.

I thought Bernie Sanders really sort of tried to give the crowd what they wanted, his part of the crowd, at least. You know, which is to say "Look, it was racist." And he acknowledged something that I sort of hadn't reserved as a backup. A lot of people don't know he voted for that Crime Bill. So he's condemning the language in very harsh terms, but at the end of the day, you know, she said, "You know, we've got to stop the super predators." She was talking about gangsters and drug -- drug dealers back in the 1990s and violent criminals.

The fact that he voted for the bill, though, is...

CAMEROTA: Can you have it both ways?

JOHNS: He -- he apparently can. What he said is that, you know, look, this has got to be sort of dealt with and talked about even 20 years later. And the Black Lives Matter protesters, many of whom support Bernie Sanders or at least his stance on this, think that it is an important issue. They've raised it up as an issue 20 years after the fact. So he's condemning her for language of a bill that he voted for. And keep in mind, she was the first lady at the time. She didn't vote for that bill. She wasn't in a position to. CUOMO: Quick follow-up -- that's my Errol Louis impression, "Quick

follow-up." Is there any irony -- is anything, because we're talking about policy in this segment -- is there any regret on the behalf of people who are complaining about the unintended consequences. And again, that's a controversial term. Some would say, "You knew damn well what would happen when you put this bill into effect."

That what was also asked for during the time of the bill never got delivered, still hasn't been delivered. The types of opportunities in the communities of African-Americans that would deter crime: education, health care, job placement. That's the big gripe, that you gave us the harsh part but not the good part. That never came up last night.

LOUIS: Well, there's -- that's right. I mean, look, there's -- if you go back and you really sort of go through what was going on. I mean, as Ron Brownstein mentioned a minute ago, you had 2,000 murders a year in New York City. I mean, it was -- it was a horrible time. It was a really difficult time.

And the understanding is, I think even with -- in hindsight, is that none of prosperity that has happened in a lot of these cities over the last 20 years would have been possible until you got the crime situation under control. And that was clearly understood by, I think -- by almost everybody who supported the bill and certainly by most of the legislators who voted for it.

You know, we call it here -- and we still talk about it. We call it the peace dividend. You know, that when there aren't 2,000 murders a year, you can sort of walk around at night. Now you can get a night job. That's not something you would have tried in 1989 or 1990. So I mean, it was just that bad.

GREGORY: But it's also -- this is an example, too. Government doesn't often do this well. Government can respond to crisis. It doesn't do as well at thinking forward and providing a piece dividend, providing jobs opportunity, looking at more -- broader social issues.

[06:25:11] But again, Bernie Sanders supported that. That was an example of can we get a big omnibus Crime Bill through, despite Republican opposition to some of these social opportunity programs? Can we get -- beef up the enforcement piece in order to get a Crime Bill done and get something out of this?

He supported that. That is a compromise and incrementalism that was represented in that bill that is, I think, that fault line that we're seeing right now between the two candidates.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about another big issue, and that is the Middle East and Israel. Bernie Sanders was asked to justify his position on Israel. He has said in the past Israel's response to some of the attacks by the Palestinians has been disproportionate. So listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SANDERS: Israel was subjected to terrorist attacks, has every right in the world to destroy terrorism. But we had in the Gaza area, not a large area, some 10,000 civilians wounded and some 1,500 who were killed. Now, if you're asking me -- not just me, but countries all over the world -- was that a disproportionate attack, the answer is I believe it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: How does that play, Jackie?

KUCINICH: Striking to hear a major presidential candidate say that.

CAMEROTA: A Jewish presidential candidate.

KUCINICH: Yes. But that is -- that is s strain of thinking on the left side of a Democratic Party. But you just don't see it in front of you from a major presidential candidate.

And Hillary Clinton is very different. She's a foreign policy hawk. She actually trends with Republicans on Israel much more than the left -- left of her party.

GREGORY: Let me also say, I mean, first of all, Clinton, Bill Clinton was so popular in Israel. So I mean, they are -- they are hawkish and a big supporter of Israel.

He is representing, both within the Jewish community and within the progressive liberal community, real concern about Israel, about the policies of Israel. And it's quite striking to give it such central voice in a progressive strain of thought about support of Israel and criticism of Israel, in this case, that you see within the Democratic Party. Because it's there. I mean, it's there religiously among more progressive Jews and certainly politically, I think, among his supporters.

CUOMO: Do you think this is a way to make gains in the Democratic Party, is to start questioning the relationship?

GREGORY: No, I don't think -- I certainly don't think in the party writ large. But I can just tell you, I mean, as a Jew kind of within the religious community, this is a big -- this is a fight about where progressive Jews are, vis-a-vis Israel. And it's certainly true among progressives in the Democratic Party.

But this is a big cleavage between, like, say AIPAC and J Street, these two organizations in Washington that -- that delve into these issues. And I think it's quite unusual within the Democratic Party for him to put this kind of -- the view of -- even an even-handed approach, you know, to looking at this, the idea that this was proportionate without talking about, you know, Hamas using human shields and so forth to create that look of a disproportionate...

LOUIS: It's certainly not something you hear in New York debates. You know, it's really interesting. It's like talking about -- I don't know -- abortion in Alabama, right? There's certain ways that you just -- there's certain places you're just not going to go.

Normally here, in part because, you know, very big Jewish population. I mean, this has been a discussion that doesn't normally go into some of those nuances. Those discussions are going on but not on the stage with all the cameras...

GREGORY: Or in a New York primary with so many Jewish voters. Right.

CAMEROTA: Panel, thank you. Great to talk about policy with all of you -- Michaela.

PEREIRA: We're following breaking news, Alisyn. An incredible rescue following a deadly earthquake in Japan. We have the very latest for you.

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