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Clinton & Sanders Go on the Attack in CNN Debate; Trump Op-Ed Blasts 'Rigged' GOP Delegate System. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired April 15, 2016 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: -- they figure that politician is lying.

[07:00:03] SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we lose our freedom here, where do we go?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I am happy to be back in the studio for this all- important morning. Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to your post-debate edition of NEW DAY.

So much for polite political discourse. The Battle of Brooklyn turned into the Brawl in the Borough last night, with Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders taking off the gloves, going for the kill shot. Sanders hammering Clinton for her Wall Street ties and trade policies that he says cost millions of jobs. Clinton slamming Sanders for his stance on guns and questioning his foreign policy chops.

But did anyone move the needle with the New York primary just four days off? We'll hear from both campaigns this hour.

CUOMO: On the Republican side, events, as well. Donald Trump, Ted Cruz and John Kasich all speaking at a black-tie gala last night in New York City. What did they say face-to-face? You had anti-Trump demonstrators gathered outside, but Trump trying this morning in an op-ed to grow his base with a provocative question. Is the rigged system, as he calls it, working for you?

We have the 2016 election covered the way only CNN can. Let's begin with the man, J.B., highlighting the debate.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Chris.

You know, this is what it looks like when two candidates are sick of each other. This is what it looks like when two candidates are trying to knock the other one off that stage. This was easily the biggest debate yet, also easily the most bruising.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN (voice-over): You want contrast? SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do question her

judgment.

BERMAN: You want contentious?

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Describing the problem is a lot easier than trying to solve it.

BERMAN: You've got Brooklyn, a high-tension, high-drama debate befitting the high stakes of the moment. From the start, Bernie Sanders blasted Hillary Clinton's judgment.

SANDERS: I question a judgment which voted for the war in Iraq. And I question her judgment about wanting super PACs.

CLINTON: This is a phony attack that is designed to raise questions when there is no evidence or support to undergird the insinuations that he is putting forward in these attacks.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Secretary.

BERMAN: But nearly every Sanders salvo was met by a Clinton call for specifics, including his suggestion that she is in the pocket of big banks.

SANDERS: When millions of people lost their jobs and their homes and their life savings, the obvious response to that is that you got a bunch of fraudulent operators and that they have got to be broken up. That was my view way back. And I introduced legislation to do that.

Now, Secretary Clinton was busy giving speeches to Goldman Sachs for $225,000 a speech.

CLINTON: He cannot come up with any example, because there is no example. It always important -- it may be inconvenient, but it's always important to get the facts straight.

I stood up against the behaviors of the banks when I was a senator. I called them out on their mortgage behavior.

SANDERS: Secretary Clinton called them out. Oh, my goodness. They must have been really crushed by this. And was that before or after you received huge sums of money by giving speaking engagements behind them?

BERMAN: Speeches for which Hillary Clinton still says she will not release the transcripts.

CLINTON: Let's set the same standard for everybody. When everybody does it, OK, I will do it.

BERMAN: The Brooklyn brawl ran so hot at times the fighters needed to be separated by the ref.

SANDERS: I am sure a lot of people are very surprised to learn you supported raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour. CLINTON: You know, wait a minute, wait a minute.

SANDERS: That is not accurate.

CLINTON: I have stood on the debate stage with Senator Sanders either other times...

SANDERS: Excuse me.

CLINTON: I have said the exact same thing...

BLITZER: Secretary, Senator, please.

CLINTON: ... if we can raise it in New York or Los Angeles or Seattle, let's do.

BLITZER: Secretary, the viewers -- if you're both screaming at each other, the viewers won't be able to hear either of you.

CLINTON: I have said from the very beginning that I supported the fight for 15. I supported those on the front lines of the fight for -- it happens to be true.

SANDERS: Well, I think the secretary has confused a lot of people. I don't know how you're there for the fight for 15 when you say you want a $12 an hour maximum minimum wage.

BERMAN: Then there were decisions about contrition, Clinton offering an apology of sorts for the 1994 Crime Bill her husband signed into law.

CLINTON: I'm sorry for the consequences that were unintended and that have had a very unfortunate impact on people's lives.

BERMAN: But Sanders, when pushed with no apology for his positions on gun control.

SANDERS: I don't believe it is appropriate that a gun shop owner who just sold a legal weapon to be held accountable and be sued.

BERMAN: Including no apologies to families of victims of Sandy Hook, who have criticized his opposition to some lawsuit against some gun sellers.

[07:05:14] SANDERS: I don't think I owe them an apology. They have the right to sue. And I support them and anyone else who wants the right to sue.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: This was also a loud debate, easily the loudest of them all, literally and figuratively. Loud candidates with loud attacks, a very loud audience, as well, but also loud, sharp contrasts between the campaigns, between dreaming and doing. Those are the contrasts, the differences that these campaigns seem to want to paint -- Michaela.

PEREIRA: All right, John, thanks so much. And that's not where it ended.

Bernie Sanders sounding off on gun control and why Hillary Clinton can't measure up to him on a range of issues. Our senior Washington correspondent, Jeff Zeleny, caught up with the Democratic candidate right after last night's fiery debate.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANDERS: My view is that I have a "D"-minus voting record...

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Right.

SANDERS: ... from the NRA. I've supported the president on every major gun legislation and initiative that he's brought forth. In terms of expanding instant background check, doing away with the gun show lobby, doing away with this straw man situation. We've got to get guns out of the hands of people who should not have them.

But I think, you know, they're -- that is my view.

ZELENY: But why not say that you are holding that view and you're a senator from Vermont; as president, you might have a different view?

SANDERS: But my view is what it is. And that is we have got to do everything we can to get guns out.

And I'll tell you something else. It's very easy to have a point of view which is not going to go anyplace. I honestly believe -- you know, we've got 50 states in this country. And if we're going to succeed and do more than give speeches, we have to create a consensus. And I believe there is a consensus out there which wants to make certain that we get guns out of the hands of people who do [SIC] not have them.

But you know, there are issues like where we disagreed today. And I think the world has seen this. Secretary Clinton has a super PAC. She has a 401, a PAC, an organization that raises money without allowing disclosure. I don't think you're able to convince ordinary Americans in New York or anyplace else that you're going to stand up to the drug companies who are ripping us off or Wall Street when you take their money.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: All right. Joining us now to discuss all of this is Democratic pollster and chief strategist for the Hillary Clinton campaign, Joel Benenson.

Joel, thanks so much for being in the studio.

JOEL BENENSON, CHIEF STRATEGIST, HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN: Thanks for having me here.

CAMEROTA: Great to have you here.

Before we get to talk about policy, which there was a lot of last night, let's talk about the tone. Because something seems to have shifted. As you will remember, there was a defining moment in the very first Democratic debate. And that seems to be long gone now. So let it be juxtaposed. The first Democratic debate versus what happened last night. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: I think the secretary is right. And that is that the American people are sick and tired of hearing about your damn e-mails.

CLINTON: Thank you. Me too. Me too.

Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

SANDERS: That's just not accurate.

CLINTON: I have stood on the debate stage with Senator Sanders eight prior times.

SANDERS: Excuse me.

CLINTON: I have said the same thing.

BLITZER: Secretary, Senator, please.

CLINTON: We can raise it to 15 in New York, Los Angeles, Seattle, let's do it.

BLITZER: The viewers -- if you're both screaming at each other, the viewers won't be able to hear either of you. So please don't talk over each other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So what's happened?

BENENSON: Well, part of what happened last night was an audience that was kind of raucous right from the start. And I think when you have two people on stage, and you're got the audience shouting from the minute they come out there, and you run a microphone, you're going to have to talk loud enough to be heard. And you may not realize how much your voice is being amplified.

But I think there's something else.

CAMEROTA: But they do seem to be engaged in more of the blood sport aspect.

BENENSON: Look, there's no question. Since Senator Sanders came to New York, he's been under a very intense spotlight. I'm a native New Yorker. I was born here like he was, and you get tested here. You get tested by a press corps that's very aggressive all the way through. And he hasn't held up very well. It started with his "Daily News" interview, where he really was kind of exposed for not answering questions about issues that have been core to his campaign. And he's gotten increasingly negative. I think he also felt last night that he had to change the dynamic

dramatically and the trajectory of this election, because of the pledged delegate lead that Secretary Clinton has. I don't think he did that last night. I think he went at her very hard. I think she responded in force. I think she responded very strongly on a range of issues, particularly the ones he's been hitting her on over and over again.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about one of those issues.

BENENSON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And one of the things that she has been pressed on, and that is when she will release the transcripts to Wall Street. She said last night something that she has said all along, which is "When everybody else does it, I'll do it."

BENENSON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Bernie Sanders says, "I don't have any speeches to Wall Street. I don't have any transcripts."

BENENSON: There are candidates on both sides of this who have given speeches. Bernie Sanders may not have. He also said last night something he said for a long time. He would release his tax returns. He said maybe he'll release one year today. You know...

CAMEROTA: He says he'll release it today.

BENENSON: Well, we'll see. He's been saying that for a long time.

But here's a bigger point, Alisyn. But here's a bigger point.

[07:10:04] CAMEROTA: Hold on. If he releases his tax returns, will she release her transcripts?

BENENSON: On the substance -- on the substance of what has happened, he has been part of the people who have been calling for her to release the transcripts. He's used this attack time after time.

And last night in the debate, when he was asked if he could name one vote, one action that she took that showed she was favoring Wall Street in any way, he couldn't name anything. So it's really time for him to stop the innuendo and the insinuation when he stood on a debate stage going into the New York primary, four days out, and said he could not name a single time she had done anything that favored Wall Street.

CAMEROTA: So since he doesn't have any speech transcripts to release, if he releases his tax returns today, will she release her speeches?

BENENSON: We'll wait and see if he releases them today.

CAMEROTA: Then would she?

BENENSON: We'll wait and see if he releases them today. Why don't you ask him if he's going to release his taxes?

CAMEROTA: He says he is.

BENENSON: He says he is. He's been saying he is for how many months, Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: But...

BENENSON: No, no. He's actually said for months he would release his tax returns.

CAMEROTA: And today he gave a date certain.

BENENSON: Well, we'll see if he does.

CAMEROTA: And if he does, would she be open to releasing hers?

BENENSON: We'll come back. If you want to come back next week after he releases them today, we'll see if he does. We'll see how many he releases. He said one year.

You know, we're sitting here at CNN with a guy whose father actually set the precedent for people releasing their tax returns, a guy named Governor Mario Cuomo. Great governor of New York. I'm not saying that just to flatter your colleague here.

CUOMO: But it worked.

BENENSON: What he set is -- It did work. He set the pattern for what has been the accepted practice for candidates for high office for decades, because he was among the first to do it. And there's a reason why candidates have didn't. It is open. It's honest. And it's the right thing to do.

CAMEROTA: Well, absolutely.

BENENSON: And ours are posted -- Hillary Clinton's are posted on her website. She didn't just release them. They are posted on the website. You could go right after you're done with the show today.

CAMEROTA: The same will apply. I mean, the same theory applies to the transcripts. So we'll see what happens today.

Let me ask you about a moment of fact checking, where Politifact, as well as CNN's fact checkers, said that there was a moment that Hillary Clinton seems to be fudging the facts. It's about guns in New York and whether or not they came from Vermont. Listen to this moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: "I asked her, 'Are you seriously blaming Vermont, and implicitly, Senator Sanders, for New York's gun violence?' She said no." But go ahead.

SANDERS: Then why did she put out that statement, a statement that was refuted by the governor of the state of Vermont who said, "Oh, yes, in campaigns, people tend to exaggerate."

CLINTON: Well, the facts are that most of the guns that end up committing crimes in New York come from out of state. They come from the states that don't have the kind of serious efforts to control guns that we do in New York.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK. So they come from out of state. But they don't necessarily come from Vermont. Our fact checkers say only 55 guns or 1 percent of the guns here in New York were traced to Vermont. Does she need to be more clear about that?

Well, look, I think -- I think she said the bigger issue about guns right now are on two fronts. One is that Senator Sanders seems to be very adamant about holding every corporation in America accountable, except for gun manufacturers.

There was a vote the NRA called their most important vote in 20 years. It's relevant because of what's going on in Sandy Hook and Connecticut right now. And he voted with them. And the head of the NRA said, "This is our most important vote in 20 years." He voted with them. She was against them on that.

There's another side of this also. Senator Sanders touts the fact that in 1988 he ran for office. And he says, "I lost because I stood up to the NRA."

But in his own book, he also described the fact that, in 1990 -- and he said it -- he won his election because he agreed to not -- to oppose waiting periods for background checks.

Imagine what we're talking about. We're talking about waiting periods that affected what's called the Charleston loophole, the mass murderer who got his gun because there was no -- not a sufficient waiting period on the background check.

So he says he has a "D-minus" rating. But the fact is, on some critical votes, he has voted with the NRA. Hillary Clinton has an "F" rating from the NRA. And right now, given what's going on in this country with 30,000 gun deaths a year, I think there's a big difference between a "D-minus" and an "F" right now when you look at some critical votes that have been made.

CAMEROTA: Joel Benenson, great to talk to you.

BENENSON: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you so much for coming into the studio. We'll talk again.

Let's get over to Chris.

CUOMO: All right. That's the Democrat side.

n the Republican side, we have the front-runner making a couple of moves. At a gala last night with Ted Cruz in the room, Trump let loose on the Texas senator for trashing New York values. He also has an op-ed out this morning, asking a provocative question. Could be the new slogan for his campaign.

Let's bring in CNN political reporter Manu Raju live in Washington.

I don't know if you saw what I did there, my friend, but I left you with the meaty part. Tell us what the provocative question is in this op-ed this morning.

MANU RAJU, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Chris. It's all about the delegates.

The New York primary is actually just days away, where 95 delegates are at stake that Donald Trump's campaign believes he will secure on the way to clinching the nomination in June.

But for now Trump is employing a tactic he's been very successful at this campaign season. And that is fomenting anger at the party establishment.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[07:15:12] RAJU (voice-over): This morning Donald Trump speaking out against the Republican Party in a new op-ed in "The Wall Street Journal," appealing directly to Americans about the voting system he believes is corrupt, asking, "How has the 'system' been working out for you and your family?"

Airing his grievances about how delegates were selected in the state of Colorado, he writes, "Delegates were chosen on behalf of a presidential nominee. Yet the people of Colorado were not able to cast their ballots to say which nominee they preferred."

While last night hundreds of protesters gathered outside a black-tie GOP fund-raising event in New York City. Inside, all three remaining Republican candidates sharing the stage.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I love to speak at the Grand Hyatt, because I built this hotel.

RAJU: Front-runner Donald Trump touting and using the platform to once again slam Ted Cruz's critique of New York values.

TRUMP: The people in the Towers who helped rescue each other, those are those of New York values.

RAJU: The New York crowd seemingly ignoring the Texas senator during his speech.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will admit to you I haven't built any buildings in New York City, but I have spent my entire life fighting to defend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

RAJU: And without directly naming his opponents, Governor John Kasich wasting little time attacking both Cruz and Trump's unpopularity among the American public, painting a grim picture of what he says is at stake in this election.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do you know what will happen if we nominate people who have high negatives and cannot beat Hillary? We risk losing everything from the White House, to the courthouse, to the statehouse.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAJU: Now, just a few moments ago, a senior RNC official, Sean Spicer, released a memo arguing the delegate selection process is something the party has long left for each state to decide. Spicer said that it's up to the campaigns to be, quote, "up to speed on the delegate rules."

And yesterday when I asked House Speaker Paul Ryan, who will chairs the Republican convention, whether the process is fair, he said it's all up to the state. An answer that is yet to satisfy by Donald Trump -- Chris.

CUOMO: Manu Raju, thank you very much.

Let's take a quick break here. When we come back on the show, we have more on Trump's blistering op-ed against the Republican Party's delegate process and his top rival Ted Cruz. We have the main man for Team Trump, campaign manager Corey Lewandowski, on the show, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:21:37] CUOMO: Big move for the Trump campaign, taking a shot at the GOP and its delegate rules in a "Wall Street Journal" op-ed this morning, saying, quote, "Let me ask America a question. How has the system been working out for you and your family? I, for one, am not interested in defending a system that, for decades, has served the interest of political parties at the expense of the people."

A manifesto from the man at the top of the polls. The man who is running that campaign, Corey Lewandowski, Donald Trump's campaign manager, joins us this morning.

Good to have you here.

COREY LEWANDOWSKI, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Thanks for having me.

CUOMO: Let's deal with you first, and then we'll get into what's going on in the race. News comes out, Palm Beach County not going to prosecute. The allegation made by the reporter, Michelle Fields. Your reaction?

LEWANDOWSKI: Well, obviously, I'm very pleased. And first and foremost, I want to thank Mr. Trump for his loyalty and his dedication to his staff and to me specifically, because a lesser person and another politician would have terminated me on the spot. And so I'm so thankful for Mr. Trump and for his loyalty to me and standing by me in that difficult time. I'm thankful to my colleagues and my family as we went through this.

And it should have never gotten to this point, and I'm glad it's over. I'm glad the Palm Beach County district attorney's office has put this behind us, and we're ready to move forward now.

CUOMO: Where is your level of personal regret for the fact that this happened in the first place, putting yourself in the position, not giving Fields the apology she says that she would have accepted at the beginning and made this all go away? How much of it is on you?

LEWANDOWSKI: Well, let me say this. That night, it was never reported, but I called Michelle Fields, because I didn't know what happened, honestly. And the interaction with Michelle Fields lasted the sum total of about three seconds of my entire life. I'd never met her before, and the only time I've ever interacted with her is on that videotape. And three seconds may sound like a long time, but it was a brief interaction. I didn't -- it wasn't memorable to me, and I'm sorry about that.

But that evening, after I read her boyfriend's Twitter account saying that something had occurred, I made a phone call to Michelle, and I never heard back. And to this day, I've never heard back from Michelle.

So it's not that we didn't try to reach out to get to the bottom of it. It seems to me that she wanted to inject herself into making it a story. And now I'm glad the story is over.

CUOMO: She says she never heard from you. She says this apology thing has never happened. Is she going to hear from you again?

LEWANDOWSKI: Well, look. Here's what I said. You know, I have no reason to hate anybody, and what I want to do is bring everybody together; and we want to move on past this. You know, if we want to be successful as a party and Donald Trump as a campaign, we want to bring people together and focus our attention on winning the general election in November. That's what we want to do.

CUOMO: Apologize or no?

LEWANDOWSKI: Look, again, I've reached out to Michelle, and I've provided my phone records to show that. And never once at any time in this incident has she ever contacted the campaign directly. And that's the disappointing part, because she had the opportunity to clear this up. And if she wanted to have a conversation, she could have reached out to me directly or the office. That never took place.

CUOMO: All right. Let's talk about the campaign now. All right? This happening, this allegation created a little bit of drama in terms of are there going to be shakeups? Probably coincidental, before you make the case yourself, that the changes came. It's really about what this campaign needs to do. But let me ask you, who's the man? Who's the man?

LEWANDOWSKI: Donald Trump's the man.

CUOMO: And below him, who's the man? Who's running stuff?

LEWANDOWSKI: I work for Donald Trump, and everyone knows that. And, look, a campaign is about growth. And we cannot be successful in this campaign if we don't grow. And Paul Manafort is a great, well- respected operative who has a proven record of going out and delegate hunting and making sure we get the best political operation in place. That's Paul's role. And we need that role.

We went out, and I've been working with Rick Wiley weeks to bring him on board the campaign. He's now on board the campaign. We're going to continue to make good quality hires so that we are prepared, not just for the rest of this primary season and looking for those 1,237 delegates, but beyond.

[07:25:04] Because the administration of either Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders would be a disaster for this country. And if we're not prepared to take them on head to head in the general election, we can't be successful. So we need to grow our team. And that is being -- continuing to be built out now.

CUOMO: All right. Rick Wiley, worked for Mercury. You know, fairly respected place out of D.C. Was with Scott Walker. All right.

Paul Manafort is a different story. I know he worked the 1976 convention, and on the outside, that's the reason for having him on. But do you have any concern that there is a disconnect between you, Trump, the campaign, saying, "We hate the system" -- in your op-ed, "The system is bad. The system is dirty. We won't defend it" -- and hiring somebody with a past like Paul Manafort? You know the investigation is on the federal level. You know the intrigue and the drama that he's caused, representing people in Ukraine and elsewhere that are seen as bad people.

How does that help make your campaign's point that you're going to be better than the status quo?

LEWANDOWSKI: Look, what we need to do is first, unfortunately, you need to work within the system. And I hate the system. You know, what we saw in Colorado was the GOP establishment precluded a million people from voting on election day. That's not what the system is supposed to be.

CUOMO: So now you're going to bring in a guy who is seen by many as representing the worst of the system?

LEWANDOWSKI: No, no, no, that's not the case at all. We brought in Paul, and he's going to help grow our team, because the first and foremost thing that we need to do is we need to get 1,237 delegates. Paul has a proven record of getting that done, whether you look at the '76 convention, the '80 convention.

Paul is someone who helps bring people together, knows who those delegates are, can bring them together to make sure that, first and foremost, you're going to be the nominee.

Now, the way the nomination system works is completely broken. And I think Bernie Sanders sees it. I think we see it, because you've got the establishment that are making rules that are good for the establishment candidates.

And when you get a front-runner like Donald Trump who's anti- establishment, the Republicans never expected this. And so now they're trying to find ways to prevent him from doing that. And so we're going to play within the rules of the system. And people know what the rules are. But the rules aren't fair, and they should make it so people can go to the ballot box. If you live in the state of New York, if you live in the state of Colorado, you should be able to go to the ballot box. You should be able to vote for the person that you want, and that vote should count, and that person should ultimately, whoever has the most votes, which Donald Trump has by millions, and the most delegates, should be the nominee.

CUOMO: You know every state makes its own rules. You also know that no state changed its rules because of Donald Trump. The idea that the system is rigged against Donald Trump is impossible to show.

LEWANDOWSKI: Here's what we know. In states where they allowed people to show up and vote on election day, on primary day, Donald Trump dominates those races.

CUOMO: Not questioning that.

LEWANDOWSKI: Look at a state like Arizona.

CUOMO: If he says, "The system is rigged against me."

LEWANDOWSKI: It is rigged.

CUOMO: He makes it sound like it's personal to him.

LEWANDOWSKI: But it is, because here's what you have. You have some states that, if you want to be a delegate for the Republican nominee, you had to start running 18 months ago for delegate. That's before this campaign even started. And the people that were running for delegate -- and look, there are states that do this. And it's not for me to say. "How much money have you given to the party? Have you run for office before? How active have you been in the Republican Party?"

See, the problem with that becomes -- is the people that are tired with the broken system, that are fed up with it, they haven't been giving money to the party. Maybe they've been out trying to find a job.

CUOMO: I hear you on that.

LEWANDOWSKI: You need to fix it so the people have the right to be delegates.

CUOMO: So now what happens? This winds up going to a convention, OK, one way or the other. Let's say that happens. All right? You get there. You now need these delegates who you've been trashing as part of this dirty system. How is that conversation going to work where you have to go to these same people now that you basically have been saying are dirty and try and get them to help you?

LEWANDOWSKI: Well, I think what you're going to find is, come the day of the convention, Donald Trump is going to have more than the 1,237 delegates required. He's going to win on the first ballot. He's going to be the Republican nominee. And then we're going to unite that party, bringing everyone together. And we started to do that by doing some Washington, D.C., outreach already. We did some more yesterday.

CUOMO: Is this helping uniting by saying the system stinks, what the party is doing stinks?

LEWANDOWSKI: It's exactly right. The American people, who have day jobs every day, who aren't focused on the minutia and the arcane rules of the Republican Party, are fed up. And what we'll see today in Colorado is a revolt, because a million people were denied their right to go to the ballot box.

Now, look, you could have had a primary. You could have had a caucus. You could have had a convention. The party said, "We're not going to do either of those things. We're going to give people 10 seconds. You have to stand up and become a potential delegate." That's not how the system is supposed to work.

CUOMO: Got a lot of criticism, no question about that.

"The New York Post" put out an endorsement for you, but an interesting line in there. If at some point -- put up the endorsement language that they had up there. That basically they said, "We're endorsing Trump, because we believe that, when he gets to the general, he's going to completely change. He's going to change his tone. And, you know, he's not going to just pivot on the issues but also in his manner. The post-pivot Trump needs to be more presidential, better informed on policy, more self-disciplined and less thin-skinned." That's like a totally different guy. That's a weird endorsement to get.

Do you think Donald Trump is capable of changing what he is and who he is?

LEWANDOWSKI: Well, I don't think you want anybody to change who they are. I think what you've seen is that the success of Donald Trump in his business career and now in the political realm, which he'd never been part of, is because he goes out and speaks his mind. And that's what people want. They're tired of the political correctness. Right?

You get Ted Cruz, who speaks in platitudes all day long about this pie-in-the-sky stuff. He's been a Washington, D.C., insider his entire career, whether it was with the Bush administration or now. Nothing has changed. And that's our problem --