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Interview with Bernie Sanders; Analysis of Sanders' Campaign. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired April 18, 2016 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Very concerning in Houston. Look at this. Flash floods wreaking havoc in Houston this morning. We're looking at this video from moments ago. This driver was rescued from a car that became submerged in those floodwaters. They're so fast moving, they're so deep, he had to climb out of his window of his car and then swam to safety with the aid of someone there. Looks like an emergency responder. We know that 90 water rescues this morning have happened already this morning in Houston alone. Residents are urged to stay home, shelter in place. It is very dangerous. We know how fast that moving water is. You can't tell how deep it is and how dangerous it is.

Meanwhile, powerful earthquakes rock Ecuador and Japan just one day apart. In all, hundreds of people are dead, thousands others are injured. Crews are combing through the rubble in search of any signs of life.

Just one day out from the New York primary, Donald Trump is warning the RNC a rough July is ahead if they do not fix the delegate process that he insists is rigged.

Meanwhile, Democrats are pressing the flash. They are looking for any edge in the critical New York vote. Hillary Clinton is enjoying a double-digit lead in the polls. Bernie Sanders, meanwhile, convinced a big upset is possible.

A very special day today. The 120th Boston Marathon. Can you believe it? It kicks off in just a few minutes. You can imagine there's going to be a lot of emotion there. Thousands of runners hoping to conquer the course. Dancer Adrianne Haslet, you'll recall, she lost a leg below the knee in the 2013 bombings. She is running today, as well as other survivors.

And, as always, you can get more on the five things by visiting newdaycnn.com.

Chris, it's going to be such an emotional day at the marathon today. A beautiful day for it.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: It is. The race has always been so important up there, but now it always matters more every year since the bombing because it just shows that Boston strong was no fluke. It wasn't just a moment. It's just as real now as it was then.

All right, now, one of the things that we've been talking about this morning is the all-important New York primary tomorrow. That's true on the Republican side. Even more so on the Democrat side, you could argue. Senator Bernie Sanders played to another massive crowd, this time in Brooklyn. That is his home, where he was born. Estimates go up close to 30,000 people on hand.

So, what's going to happen tomorrow? What's the level of confidence? Why don't we ask the senator himself? Here he is, Senator Bernie Sanders.

Good to have you, senator.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Great to be with you, Chris.

CUOMO: You going to win tomorrow?

SANDER: If the turnout is high, we will win.

CUOMO: How high?

SANDERS: I - very high. Now, one of the disadvantages we have, as you know, is under New York state law. Independents cannot participate in the Democratic Party. We usually win the independent vote 2-1. So we're kind of spotting Secretary Clinton a whole lot in that regard. But if the voter turnout is high, if working people come out to vote, if young people come out to vote, we can win this thing.

CUOMO: You're just back from the Vatican.

SANDERS: Yes.

CUOMO: You hit the ground running. You go to Brooklyn. You talk for about 30 minutes. High energy. Where does the energy coming from? What is motivating you through this schedule? Because it's killing us. So where is the energy coming from?

SANDERS: It's coming from a belief that in this day and age it is absolutely imperative that we change course in America, that we get people involved in the political process, that we stand up to the 1 percent, that we create an economy that works for all of our people.

Chris, I worry so much about the major crises facing our country. I worry about climate change and what happens to our kids and grandchildren if we don't transform our energy system, worrying about kids leaving college, $50,000, $70,000 in debt. I'm worried about this country moving toward an oligarchic form of society. We have a handful of billionaires raising huge sums of money to elect candidates who are there for the rich and the powerful and ignore the needs of working family and the poor. That's what motivates me.

CUOMO: The problem, painfully obvious to many. What is hard is figuring out how to solve it. One of the things that you've been dealing with in this campaign, the criticism of, well, what are you going to do? That has two prongs where you're involved. One is, you've been in Congress a long time.

SANDERS: Yes.

CUOMO: You've been saying these things for a long time.

SANDERS: Yes.

CUOMO: You haven't been able to achieve what you're saying you'll be able to achieve now. Fair criticism?

SANDERS: Not really. I mean when you're a member of Congress, you have a certain role to play and I'm very proud of my role and I'll compare it to Senator Clinton's any - any day. She was in the Senate for eight years. We passed a major bill to improve veteran's health care, a major provision of the Affordable Care Act is something that I offered $11 billion for community health centers, a major piece of environmental legislation. I'm pretty proud of my record.

President is in a different position. And the question of how you pay for it, Chris, has got to be put in the context. But over the last 30 yes, there has been trillions of dollars transferred from working families to the top one-tenth of 1 percent. This is not a poor country. This is the richest country in the history of the world. And there's no reason why we should have people living in abysmal poverty.

[08:35:09] CUOMO: But the - the problem becomes, well, then how do you fix it? That's not a new problem. You point out, hey, free college would help it. That's what I want to do. But you need to have a plan to make that work.

SANDERS: Sure. Yes, (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: A lot of economists attack your plan -

SANDERS: No, no.

CUOMO: And saying you'd burst the deficit to levels that they've never seen before.

SANDERS: No, that's just not accurate. I mean, you know, look, when you come up with ideas that run counter to what the 1 percent want, all of their economists are going to tell us how crazy I am. In terms of making public colleges and universities, not all colleges, public colleges and universities tuition free, we impose a tax on Wall Street speculation. Not a radical idea. It is done elsewhere. It will raise more than enough money to lower student debt and make public colleges and universities tuition free. Rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, a huge problem. We end the loophole that now exists so that major corporations can stash their money in the Cayman Islands and other tax havens in any given year pay not a nickel in federal taxes.

CUOMO: The - I don't know, I'm sure you've been too busy, but you are a frequent either guest or subject on "Saturday Night Live." You had Larry David on there, on "Saturday Night Live," and they were singling out what's - let's just call the yada, yada, yada problem. They use the "Seinfeld" skit to talk about how you'll be able to get these things done. You know, how are you going to break up the big banks? Well, I'll sit them down, yada, yada, yada, I'll break them up. How big a problem do you think it is that people don't think, that group of voters that you want who don't think Bernie can get it done. I know he believes it. It sounds great. But he can't break up those banks. He can't get free college. It's too hard or he can't pay for it.

SANDERS: Well, let me respond in this way. If you and I were sitting here and - five years ago, not a long time, and I said, Chris, you know, I think the $7.25 federal minimum wage is a starvation raise. We've got to raise it to $15 an hour.

CUOMO: I was talking to you five years ago. You were saying that.

SANDERS: But most people would have thought that that was a crazy idea, right? Fair enough? You wanted double the minimum wage. Well, guess what, California, New York, Los Angeles, Oregon have done it. Why? Because people stood up and fought for a $15 an hour wage and appealed to the conscience of the American people.

Second point, gay marriage. You are - now were we here 10 years ago, would you have believed, honestly, that gay marriage would be legal now in 15 states in this country? Probably not. I would not have. But what happens when people stand up and say, we've got to end bigotry in America. People have a right to love whomever. Change takes place when people stand up and fight for change. That is the kernel, the heart of what this campaign is about. And I believe everything that we're talking about. Nothing is radical. These ideas exist in other countries. They have existed in the United States. When you were a kid, how much did it cost to go to City University? It was virtually -

CUOMO: Under - under $1,000.

SANDERS: There you go, virtually tuition free. Why if we could do it 30, 40, 50 years ago can't we do it in America today? We can. But what the truth is, is that the people on top have enormous economic and political power. I'm trying to change that dynamic.

CUOMO: Bill Clinton, on the hustings, said, you know, look, I love that these young people are out there, they're being energized by Bernie Sanders. That's great. Basically his message to them is, if you kill one out of every three people who work on Wall Street, everything will be fine. You can - look, that's politics. It's ugly. It's out on the hustings. That's - that's - that's no surprise. But you know you have a problem with that group of people. I mean you target the banks all the time as the seed of what's wrong with the capitalist system. They would say they are the capitalist system. What do you say to the entrepreneurs, to the young business people? Why would they vote for Bernie Sanders?

SANDERS: Because you can run a business in a way that is profitable. That's what businesses try to do. Treat your workers with respect and protect the environment. There are thousands of businesses who are into social responsibility. Yes, they want to make money, but they're not going to shut down today and move to China. They're not going to destroy the environment in order to do that. What we need - and this is where we can learn something from the pope. That's what Pope Francis is talking about. He's talking about morality, creating a world economy based on morality, not just on greed. I agree with him.

CUOMO: But - right. But when you use the pope as an analogy, the pope is not a politician, OK? He is shamelessly socialist in terms of his finding. He's actually way beyond that. You know, his signature expression of (speaking foreign language), "make a mess." He wants to go out and challenge capitalism to be different and better. OK, that's the pope.

SANDERS: Right.

CUOMO: A president is not a pope any way you want to look at it. And that is what gives America all of its resources, all of its unique capabilities, all of its unique success. Is that engine that you're now saying is broken - and I get the disparity argument. You'd have to be blind not to see it. But do you wind up attacking what makes America great as part of an ability to make it better?

[08:40:04] SANDERS: I do not think that America is great when the leadership of major final institutions engage in widespread fraud. So if your question - I think what your question is, how are we going to create wealth without Wall Street. That's your question.

CUOMO: Right.

SANDERS: I think we can. And I think you can break up these large financial institutions -

CUOMO: How?

SANDERS: Well, you can do it through Section 121 of Dodd-Frank. You can do it through my (ph) legislation. All you need is the secretary of the Treasury to determine which banks, if they fail, will cause systemic damage to our economy. That's not a hard thing to do.

CUOMO: That exists now, though.

SANDERS: That - that's right. The law exists now. I will -

CUOMO: So what will be different?

SANDERS: I will use it. Just because we can do it doesn't mean we are doing it.

CUOMO: But they have the stress tests and the ongoing analysis now. What -

SANDERS: And what happened recently? They failed - five of the major banks failed their stress test. Failed.

CUOMO: Right.

SANDERS: Yes. So what I'm saying is, I think when so few financial institutions have so much economic and political power, when their history in recent years has shown them that they're into fraud and illegal behavior, I do not think it is a good thing for the future of this country that they maintain their kind of size that they currently have.

CUOMO: Guns.

SANDERS: Guns.

CUOMO: Your early rationale on why certain sellers shouldn't be sued was, these are mom and pop shops. Don't go after a mom and pop shop for the fact that we don't like how guns are used when they're in the hands of wrong people. That's not what Newtown's lawsuit is about. Newtown is about going after the major manufacturers, not the mom and pops, and doing it for their marketing, that they promote the use of these things in video games and otherwise. Why did you give such a quick no on that about whether or not they should be sued on that basis?

SANDERS: Well, this is - this is - this is what I think. First of all, please understand that we, back in 1988, I ran a campaign for the United States Congress. The only candidate taking on the gun people to say, we should ban these assault weapons which are designed only to kill people. That's my view then. That is my view now. I want to see that put away.

What I believe right now is, yes, you're right about mom and pop stores. I sell you a gun legally, you go out and kill somebody, should I be held responsible?

CUOMO: Right.

SANDERS: But this is what I also believe, is that if you walk into my shop and you want 10,000 rounds of ammunition, oh, here it is, Chris, 10,000 rounds, that's pretty crazy. I should be held responsible. If I am a gun manufacturer, selling guns into areas where I know they're ending up into the hands of criminals, I should be held liable for that as well. I believe that.

CUOMO: But the Newtown suit is, you put them in the video games, you market them to the young, you tell people they're tools of empowerment, that they make you cool, they make you mighty, and they want to sue.

SANDERS: It's an ugly thing to do.

CUOMO: I'm not saying they'd win the suit.

SANDERS: Right.

CUOMO: But do you think they should be able to sue?

SANDERS: Well, obviously, they should and they are suing and they want to (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: Well, you said no.

SANDERS: Well, within a broader context. Do I think somebody should be held liable is what I said for selling a legal product? Should somebody have the right to sue and make their case? Of course they should.

CUOMO: So, the Newtown families should be allowed to sue the manufacturers on the basis of marketing?

SANDERS: They are doing that. They are doing that.

CUOMO: And the judge said yes.

SANDERS: Right.

CUOMO: But many people said you were on the wrong side of that issue.

SANDERS: Well, if - what I said in my own personal view, if I sell you a legal product -

CUOMO: Right.

SANDERS: Do I - am I liable for the crazy thing that you do with it? I think not.

CUOMO: All right, I'm help - I'm trying to get you to clarify it because it's been (INAUDIBLE) not so much.

SANDERS: But should somebody be - have the right to sue? Anybody can sue for any reason and we'll see how the courts react to that suit.

CUOMO: All right, another issue that's going on right now, the GI bill, OK.

SANDERS: Yes.

CUOMO: What's happening in Congress? They have a no roll call vote. Sneaky. Dirty pool already. They get through this bill that says the following. There is money that - well, you know what the bill is.

SANDERS: Yes.

CUOMO: Just for you at home. The - there's money that they're taking that people from the military used to use for their dependents, that they weren't using themselves for housing allowance. It's money that they needed. Now Congress is saying, we're going to take that money and we're going to use it to fund other programs. The veterans, the IAV, big associations are coming out and saying, don't use the GI bill as a piggybank.

SANDERS: Sure.

CUOMO: Find your savings somewhere else.

SANDERS: Right.

CUOMO: You already don't honor your commitment to the troops.

SANDERS: Yes.

CUOMO: Where are you on that bill? SANDERS: I - I agree with the veterans organizations.

CUOMO: Will you fight it?

SANDERS: Absolutely. Absolutely. Look -

CUOMO: Because it's - it's passing through right now.

SANDERS: I know and I've got to - you know, my problem is, there are 24 hours to a day. But the answer is, yes. The veterans are saying is there is money available in a dozen different ways. Some of these guys who are pushing this cut are the same people who want to give tax breaks to billionaires. In my view, that is pretty crazy. You've got to stand by the men and women who have put their lives on the line to defend us. You do not make cuts in the housing allowance, which people need.

CUOMO: All right, tone. It's becoming more and more a subject with this. We know that it's more critical, it's closer than people expected it to be, maybe even you included in that. So, part of that happens in politics. But the concern is going to be, if you don't win and you wind up in the convention, you have a lot of followers who, in their mind - I mean you know it when you're out there, they're not looking for anybody else. How - have you given a thought yet to what you would do if you don't get the nomination - to keep this massive group of people who believe in you with the party that you say you are beholden to, the Democrats?

[08:45:13] SANDERS: Well, it's - first of all, our major focus right now is trying to win.

CUOMO: Is winning. I get it.

SANDERS: But I got your question. And the question is that it's a two- way street. I mean the Clinton people are also going to have to listen to what these people are fighting for. And the Clinton people are going to have to say, well, you know, maybe Bernie has a point, that we should not be the only major country on earth not to guarantee health care to all people or have paid family or medical leave. And maybe, yes, the billionaire class should start paying their fair share of taxes. And maybe, yes, we should break up Wall Street.

So it is a two-way thing. And it's not me. I don't control millions of people. But the Clinton campaign is going to have to make the case to those young people that, in fact, they are prepared to stand up for some real fundamental changes in this country. And that's a case they have not yet been able to make.

CUOMO: You do not believe that the Clinton campaign has said in any compelling way that they have what that group of voters, whose #feelingthebern, that they have the solution to those people's problems?

SANDERS: No, I really don't think they have - I mean they're very good at rhetoric and certainly she has moved to the left in this campaign in response to many of the initiatives that we have brought forth. But I think not only our supporters, I think the average person understands that when you collect such large sums of money from Wall Street and other special interests, they have their doubts as to whether the Clinton people will stand up to these powerful forces.

CUOMO: What did you think about the question from Wolf at the debate where he said, can you point to one single vote, one single action -

SANDERS: Yes.

CUOMO: That makes this allegation about her being too closely tied to reality?

SANDERS: Well, let me give you two -

CUOMO: Because you didn't have - you didn't have one.

SANDERS: Well, first of all, one is the bankruptcy bill that she ended up voting for, which was not a good piece of legislation. But, you see, the question suggests, just because somebody gets campaign contributions, do they automatically respond? And as you well know, it's more complicated than that. So I'm not suggesting that money immediately results in a vote or a vote - either way.

But the more important issue, Chris, the point that I did make, which I believe is the fundamental point, if we know - and the evidence is not debatable - that major Wall Street firms have been operating in a fraudulent manner, if we know that a handful of these firms have incredible economic and political power, should they be broken up? I began this campaign by saying, yes, too much economic and political power, too much fraudulent activity. Hillary Clinton has not come on board that point of view.

CUOMO: Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you very much for making the time for NEW DAY. Good luck tomorrow.

SANDERS: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right, so you just heard from Senator Sanders. We're going to talk with John King about what to expect tomorrow and why. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:51:50] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: OK, so welcome back. We just heard from Senator Bernie Sanders sitting with you. And it's interesting, we're - I want to bring in CNN chief national correspondent, anchor of INSIDE POLITICS, John King.

John King, the second this guy sat down, my two thoughts were precisely I think what you also picked up on, which makes me feel smart because I think you're the smartest guy in the room -- no offense, Cuomo.

CUOMO: No, that's all right. Why would I take offense to that? There are only two guys here. BALDWIN: So - so - so the first point being - I think it was

essentially your last question where you were saying, have you ever given a thought to, if you don't win the nomination, and what do you say to your faithful feel the Bern followers? Let's play that clip and then we'll talk on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: It's a two-way street. I mean the Clinton people are also going to have to listen to what these people are fighting for. So it is a two-way thing. And it's not me. I don't control millions of people. But the Clinton campaign is going to have to make the case to those young people that, in fact, they are prepared to stand up for some real fundamental changes in this country. And that's a case they have not yet been able to make.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: What did you think about that, John King?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It tells me that he has given considerable thought to the question. He does not want to answer the day before the New York primary his side of that. So he left the burden on Secretary Clinton. It's a two-way street. She's going to have to address my issues. She's going to have to address my people. She's going to have to reach out to them. She would have a responsibility to say, please join my team. He left the burden on her.

But it was actually a pretty thoughtful answer and it's clear that he has thought about the question because this is a fascinating challenge for the Democrats. As much as we function - as we focus, excuse me, on the dysfunction in the Republican Party right now and the fracturing of the Republican Party right now, the Sanders' movement has created a fracture in the Democratic Party. And it is an open question. Look, he's still competing for the nomination. He still has a mathematical chance to get there. It's a hard one, but he has a chance. So of course he's not going to say, well here's what I'll do at the convention. But, remember, he's going to go all the way to the convention.

This is normally the time, Brooke and Chris, where that healing in both parties is beginning. You understand the math, you're getting to the convention. You might still be running, but you're starting to figure it out. Sander is going to take it all the way to the convention. So then you have three months essentially between the convention and the general election. And there are a lot of the younger Sanders' supporters who say, no way. A never Hillary movement, like a never Trump movement. So it's - clearly he's leaving it on her for now, but you could see in his reaction he's thinking about this.

CUOMO: Also, you couldn't ask for better casting. I'm no John King, as you so painfully pointed out.

BALDWIN: You are Chris Cuomo, you know.

CUOMO: However, even I know - BALDWIN: Yes.

CUOMO: That this party, the Democratic Party, is in an existential crisis. And they picked the exact two right people for the battle.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CUOMO: Bernie Sanders is the traditional left, the liberal wing of that party. Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, made the modern Democratic Party, moving it to the center, the third way stuff.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CUOMO: So this is the battle of the titans in terms of what that party's going to be. Something that is not as clear cut in terms of playing to advantage for John King - John King, for Bernie Sanders is, where he is on guns.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CUOMO: I was very careful in how I was putting this question. I get the mom and pop thing. I get where he was on that. But the Newtown issue is different. They're suing the big manufacturers, not for selling you a legal product that then you learn - use like the bad or sick person that you are, but for the marketing of it. And he said, yes, you should be able to sue for that. And they're going to be -

BALDWIN: Which is different from what he said the other night.

CUOMO: And I said, you said no last time. He said, well, hold on, in a broader context. I don't get where he is on this answer, John. Help me with it.

[08:55:06] KING: Well, his position is - and he explained it several times. I think he generally believes, as a matter of principle, that if somebody sells you a legal product and then you do something illegal with it, that person, that company should not be responsible for your personal individual choice to break the law. It's pretty clear he believes that as a matter of principle and he also understands the politics of the gun issue for him have been very difficult. So what he was trying to say in the end there and sort of not changing his principle but saying sure they can sue, is that if he were on the jury, he would vote no. That he would not side with - he does not believe it's a valid lawsuit but that, sure, they should be able to go to court and do it. That this is America. Make your case in the courts and see what they say. But it was pretty clear that if he was on that jury he would say, no, you can't sue people for this.

CUOMO: Do you see it like that, having heard the conversation?

BALDWIN: I - you know -

CUOMO: Even on the marketing issue? Because he seemed very, you know -

BALDWIN: It's tough. I mean I talked to the daughter of the Sandy Hook principal the other day on my show and she was extraordinarily frustrated. She's a Hillary Clinton supporter. She was very frustrated when Wolf was asking the question the other day. She would have a meeting with Senator Sanders. But obviously they feel very strongly that they should be able to - and win. Sue and win the gun manufacturers. And even they - I think they would include the mom and pop shops in that because ultimately if you're selling 10,000 rounds of ammunition or an AR-15, it's not OK.

CUOMO: Well, the judge said the suit can go forward.

BALDWIN: Right.

CUOMO: So, we'll see what happens.

KING: Right.

BALDWIN: John King, thank you very much.

KING: A big day tomorrow.

CUOMO: Smartie.

BALDWIN: Thank you, my brilliant, amazing, handsome friend, Chris Cuomo.

CUOMO: Oh, please. It's - I never take it personally.

But here is Carol Costello, a real news woman, to pick up right after the break. I'm petty and small.

BALDWIN: I've got to come back tomorrow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:11] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, New York ready to vote.