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New Day

Donald Trump Refuses to Release Tax Returns; Max Scherzer's Twenty Strikeouts; George Zimmerman Auctioning Off Gun as "Piece of American History". Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired May 12, 2016 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:31:17] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The deadly explosion at a fertilizer plant in Texas three years ago was no accident. Federal investigators now say someone intentionally set the fire that triggered the blast. Who did it and why is still a mystery. Fifteen people were killed, 500 homes were destroyed in the town of West. That is near Waco.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: A former South Carolina police officer now faces federal civil rights charges. Michael Slager indicted in the shooting death of Walter Scott after a traffic stop in North Charleston last year. Slager's also accused of lying to investigators. That's because he claimed he fired after Scott came at him with his police taser. Video showed Scott running away.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Here's a story getting a lot of attention this morning. George Zimmerman auctioning off the gun he used to kill unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin back in 2012. Zimmerman calling this, quote, "The sale of an American firearm icon." He says he will use the proceeds to fight Black Lives Matter violence against police, as well as fight, quote, "Hillary Clinton's anti- firearm rhetoric." Here's what he told Florida station WOFL.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: It thought it was time to move past the firearm, and if I sell it and it sells, I move past it. What I've decided to do is not cower. I'm a free American and I can do what I'd like with my possessions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Zimmerman was acquitted of second degree murder and manslaughter in Martin's death, successfully arguing he was defending himself during the altercation. No comment from Trayvon Martin's family on the sale.

I don't know if moving past it, if that's his goal, to call this an American icon, to -- I mean, it's the height of insensitivity I think.

BERMAN: The gun killed a human being. And the Trayvon Martin Foundation did put out a statement saying they wouldn't comment about that man. Which I think speaks volumes.

CUOMO: You can't explain this as right or wrong. It feels wrong. People are going to very react strongly. They're going to react strongly to us even mentioning George Zimmerman, that he's doing this. But in terms of understanding how this guy could do this, he sees himself as a victim in this situation. I've interviewed him. That's what he thinks. And he sees himself as some kind of advocate for a righteous cause and that fuels a lot of things that otherwise don't seem to make sense.

CAMEROTA: We're going to talk more about this. We're going to have legal analysis and experts coming up.

BERMAN: All right, Donald Trump, he is refusing to release his tax returns at least right now. This is something every party nominee has done since 1976, so what's in them? Why is he resisting? Is there, as Mitt Romney says, some kind of bombshell?

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[06:37:59] BERMAN: Once upon a time Donald Trump said he would release his taxes. He's the only current candidate not to do so. But now it looks like he's looking for a way out. He keeps hiding behind an audit, saying he can't release the returns until the audit is done. What's more, he says there's nothing to learn from them anyway. Really?

Joined now by CNN chief business correspondent and star of "EARLY START", Christine Romans. Romans, thanks so much for being with us. When was the last time that a nominee did not release his or her taxes?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: 1976 Gerald Ford released just a summary of his taxes, but every year since then your presidential nominee and your vice presidential nominee have released their tax returns. All of -- this is precedent now that this biggest job in the world, this job interview, tax returns are part of the thing that you -- that you let the voters see.

BERMAN: And of course, you know, Mitt Romney got in some trouble for it when he wouldn't release them. Ultimately, he did and it was discovered he was paying a lower rate.

ROMANS: Right. And some people are saying, look, Mitt Romney is even saying there might be a bombshell in Donald Trump's taxes. Why won't he release his taxes? When Mitt Romney released his taxes, he was a very rich guy in a very complicated businessman, right, and it turned out that his effective tax rate that year was 14.1 percent. That didn't play so great among middle class Republicans who didn't think that that was really reflective of middle class.

BERMAN: All right, Donald Trump has given a range of reasons and a range of conditions for if and when he might release his taxes.

ROMANS: Let's listen in his own words his excuses.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC HOST: -- to releasing your tax returns?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about maybe when we find out the true story on Hillary's e-mails.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMANS: And we don't have all of Hillary Clinton's e-mails but we do -- we do know that he has said since then, yes, he would release his taxes. Let's listen some more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We're working on that now. I have very big returns, as you know, and I have everything all approved and very beautiful and we'll be working on that over the next period of time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMANS: Over the next period of time, working on that, big returns -- but we don't know what's in those returns still.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Put out their returns -- that's under an audit. You're in the midst of negotiating and talking to the IRS. You'd never put it out. You would never do that. Your lawyers would never allow you to do that

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[06:40:05] BERMAN: You can tell by Chris's stare that there's something fishy there.

ROMANS: Yes, Chris's nose is on the right-hand side -- yes, exactly.

(LAUGHTER)

ROMANS: No, you know, he says he's under an audit, your lawyers would never let you do. That the IRS has told us he could -- he could definitely release those returns if he wanted to.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You don't learn anything from it. A tax return, you learn very, very little.

GRETA VAN SUSTERN, FOX NEWS HOST: But I just think there's some years outside the audit that might be released, at least to get rid of the --

TRUMP: Well, first of all, if there are, they're meaningless, OK?

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. TRUMP: Doesn't matter because they're so back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now that last statement is the one that is the most interesting and I think perhaps the most controversial. The idea that there's nothing to learn from someone's tax returns. That is, in fact, simply not the case.

ROMANS: It won't show you his net worth -- and there has been question of his net worth. He puts up something like $10 billion. Forbes and Fortune and others put it more like $3, $3 billion to 4 billion. But there is -- this is what you find on that tax information. And the tax return can show you your effective tax rate.

BERMAN: How much you pay.

ROMANS: How much you pay. So this is the person who has put out his own tax plan, what he thinks people should pay, and we'd like to know what he's paying, right? That's what voters would like to know. Taxable income. How much money is he earning? Or how much money is he losing? This is a real estate business. It's very complicated. It can be very interesting to see does he have gains or losses?

BERMAN: And, look, Donald Trump is a guy who brags -- and I don't mean that pejoratively -- he brags about his wealth. His wealth is a big deal to him. He claims he's a very rich man. So how much he makes is something that people will be interested in.

ROMANS: You could also find out more about his investments, more about his business income. And finally, this is interesting too, deductions, charities, contributions. Especially charitable contributions is interesting because you look back at, like, Mitt Romney and some other recent candidates -- they've given a lot, 10 percent to charity. That's something that when you're kind of grooming to run for president you make sure that you're giving money to all the right causes. And what do those causes say about you? These are things we don't know about Donald Trump.

BERMAN: And, again, Donald Trump's charity is also something that's been an issue. He says his foundation has given over $100 million over the year. The question is how much is his own personal wealth tied to that foundation? What's the paper trail for those donations? And of course there's the whole idea about the donations of veterans this year, won't show up on the tax returns, but that's why charity matters.

ROMANS: It does matter. But, look, Donald Trump has said he would release these once the audit is done. The IRS -- we don't know when but that audit is going to be done, but we do know the IRS says he is -- there's nothing legally holding him back from releasing those tax returns. It's just Donald Trump and his lawyers are the only things holding back (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: The only thing holding it back is Donald Trump. No question about that. Christine Romans, thank you so much. Chris.

CUOMO: All right, JB. A lot of hot air blowing around Washington these days, but last night it was more of a cool breeze thanks to all the swings and misses at Nationals Park. A performance for the ages by National pitching ace Max Scherzer. Wait until you see this.

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[06:46:42] CUOMO: More confirmation today that two pieces of debris found back in March belonged to the doomed Malaysian airline MH-370. A piece from the engine was discovered on a beach in South Africa; part of a cabin panel was found in the island nation of Mauritius. Malaysia's government says both, quote, "almost certainly" came from the jet that mysteriously disappeared two years ago.

CAMEROTA: The man who gunned down three people inside a Colorado Planned Parenthood clinic has been declared mentally incompetent to stand trial. A judge put the case on hold while Robert Dear is sent to a state psychiatric hospital. His mental health will be reviewed in August. The 57-year-old Dear who declared himself, quote, "a warrior for the babies" has admitted to the November shooting.

BERMAN: All right, it is a game for the ages in Washington last night. Nationals ace Max Scherzer, he struck out everyone a lot. 20 Detroit Tigers went down. That is a lot of (INAUDIBLE). Backwards and forwards in a 3-2 victory. This ties a Major League record for strikeouts in a nine-inning game.

Chris Cuomo, can you name me three other pitchers who have done it?

CUOMO: No, who?

BERMAN: Roger Clemens twice.

CUOMO: Is that Yankee or?

BERMAN: No, Red Sox. While he was a good pitcher. Perry Wood once and Randy Johnson did once in a nine-inning -- in nine innings, but the game went into extra innings so the record books don't record it the same way. But 20 strikeouts --

CAMEROTA: Why didn't you ask me?

BERMAN: How many --

(CROSSTSALK)

CUOMO: He didn't want me to answer the question. He wanted to brag on his baseball knowledge.

BERMAN: (INAUDIBLE) got it right.

CAMEROTA: I would say Rivera?

BERMAN: Yes, Jennifer Rivera. CAMEROTA: Jennifer Rivera.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Yes, we mentioned Rivera before -- she said my producer? We were talking about Mariano Rivera.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: You know what, I find that Rivera works for a lot -- is the answer to a lot of things. Geraldo? You know what I'm saying?

CUOMO: Oh yes. Geraldo, who'd probably think he is a better pitcher than Roger Clemens.

All right. So one of the stories that has popped into the news, a lot of controversy surrounding it, George Zimmerman. You know who that is. Word that he is auctioning off the gun he used to kill Trayvon Martin, calling it your chance to own a piece of American history. Why is he doing this? Next.

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[06:52:23] CAMEROTA: All right, this story that's getting so much attention this morning. George Zimmerman announcing he's auctioning off the 9mm handgun he used to kill Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman calls the firearm, quote, "a piece of American history". Zimmerman says he will use the proceeds to fight the Black Lives Matter movement. He also told Florida station WOFL that he wants to part ways with the weapon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZIMMERMAN: I thought it was time to move past the firearm, and if I sell it and it sells, I move past it. What I've decided to do is not cower. I'm a free American and I can do what I would like with my possessions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right. Let's discuss this with CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos and CNN political commentator Marc Lamont Hill. He's a host at BET News and a professor at Morehouse College.

Marc, I want to start with you. You heard George Zimmerman there saying he wants to move past the incident. Is this the way to do that?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, what better way to move past an incident than to make another national spectacle out of your sort of actions, right? He had the opportunity to go into obscurity, to never say another word, but instead he makes an auction. Instead, he gets back into the news cycle. Instead, he causes deep pain to Trayvon Martin's family and he causes outrage on every side of this issue. I mean, there's just no need to do it. Forget about whether he's legally entitled to do it or not. That's not the point. The point is should you do it?

CAMEROTA: Well, let's ask that. Danny, is he -- he's a private citizen. Can he legally sell a handgun that was involved in a death?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: People are surprised to learn that private citizens have less restrictions on them than federally licensed dealers. And in fact, in the case of gun auction websites, like gunbroker.com, a private citizen can sell his gun online and with limited rules about background checks and other things, although there still are still federal laws. Florida has very limited state laws on the issue.

But just as Marc said, from a PR perspective, there are many other ways he could have made this sale that wouldn't have been quite so public. Again, with the less restrictive laws on private individuals, he could have transferred that firearm privately and not done it online if he so choose.

CAMEROTA: What he wants to do, he says, Marc, is to make money, make as much money as possible, opening this up for a bid, so that he can fight the Black Lives Matter movement. Let me read to you what he has said about that.

He says, "I'm proud to announce that a portion of the proceeds will be used to fight Black Lives Matter violence against law enforcement officers, ensure the demise of Angela Corey's persecution career, and Hillary Clinton's anti-firearm rhetoric. Now is your opportunity to own a piece of American history."

[06:55:11] He's talking there of course about the prosecutor who tried the case against him, but he was acquitted. The jury found that he acted in self-defense, but he clearly has not moved past it and is harboring a terrible grudge.

HILL: Well, first, I mean, the one thing George Zimmerman and I probably agree on is that the prosecutor Angela Corey has not done an effective job. We saw that in the case of Trayvon, Marissa Alexander; we could go on down the list. So I'd agree with maybe pushing her out of office, but you do that electorally. You don't do that by trying to, you know, instigate rage and incite rage among people who have been deeply wounded by this incident.

The assertion that Black Lives Matter has caused violence against police that we've seen in the last couple of years, and it's not higher than it's normally been if we really look at the data. But I think that's just a misstatement of fact and it's again -- it plays into a narrative that George Zimmerman has. George Zimmerman does not want this to go away. He wants to see more anger, more rage, more pain. And we know that because when you look at his internet activity, when you look at his social media activity in particular, the statements he's made over the years, he consistently pokes at the same national wound.

Can you imagine if O.J. Simpson decided to start a line of steak knives right after the unfortunate killings of -- in the '90s. Of course he could have done it. Of course he was a legal -- a citizen who had been found not guilty by a jury of his peers. But it would have been insensitive and mean. I'm not defending O.J. of course, (INAUDIBLE). My point is that we would be rightly outraged at O.J. We should be rightly outraged at this.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Danny, I mean, this -- it is hard to imagine his motivation other than anger and a grudge. The bidding starts at $5,000. Can any amount of money help him ruin the career of the prosecutor? I mean, what can -- that's what he says his stated goal is. How is that going to work?

CEVALLOS: Well, if it's starting at $5,000 I can hardly imagine some political sea change arising from, $5,000, $6,000, $7,000. But the other thing that Marc -- related to what Marc talked about, you see this all the time with criminal defendants who are either acquitted or convicted. They turn it into a personal mission. They become sort of activists for their own personal views. And I can't tell you how often it's such a bad idea.

George Zimmerman was acquitted. He should just move on. It's an understandable position for criminal defendants because it feels like the world is against you when you're being prosecuted because in fact, the world is against you. And in Zimmerman's case, the entire world was against him. So from an emotional perspective, you can understand his sort of behavior acting out against people, but it certainly isn't a prudent course of action. And anyone would recommend that, whatever his personal feelings are, he really shouldn't put it on social media.

CAMEROTA: Here is how the Trayvon Martin Foundation is responding to this. They say, "The Trayvon Martin Foundation is committed to its mission of ending senseless gun violence in the United States. This election season we are laser-focused. As such the foundation has no comment on the actions of that person."

Marc, your final thought?

HILL: Good for them. This is exactly the type of response we want. What George Zimmerman wants is a big battle, he wants a national outrage, and I don't want to see that happen. The one thing quickly I would disagree with Danny on is everybody wasn't against George Zimmerman. People paid for his legal defense. People would show up and ask for his autograph. And I think he's hoping that he can get a critical mass of people behind him too, not just to buy the gun, but to buy into a really dangerous narrative. I hope we don't take the bait and we do what Trayvon Martin's family has done, which is ignore George Zimmerman.

CAMEROTA: OK, Marc, Danny, thank you. Thanks so much for talking about all of this.

We're following a lot of news this morning, including a preview of Donald Trump's big meeting with House Speaker Paul Ryan. So let's get right to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We just need to get to know each other.

TRUMP: Paul is a good person. Hopefully it'll work out.

RYAN: That's going to take some unification.

TRUMP: There's radical Islamic terrorism all over the world. It's a disaster. It hasn't been called for yet. Nobody's done it. This is just a suggestion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure I'd back off on it.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: want to get results for the American people.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That is not the American people talking.

CLINTON: We're going to have a real difference in the general election.

SANDERS: If those super delegates listened to the people of your state.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New details in the days leading up to Prince's death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Sholenberg, he has now disappeared.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The investigation is still going full throttle.

CAMEROTA: Is an inmate really Prince's biological son?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.

CUOMO: Good morning. Welcome back to your NEW DAY.

Up first, Donald Trump expected to arrive in Washington, D.C., in the next hour for the big meeting with House Speaker Paul Ryan, their crucial summit aimed at ending the infighting within the Republican Party, uniting behind Trump, the presumptive nominee.

[07:00:03] Top GOP leaders are urging Ryan to back Trump or risk hurting an already fractured party. So what's going to happen? What will success be on the backside of this meeting?