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Trump & Clinton Escalate Attacks on Each Other; Sanders: Democratic Convention Could Be 'Messy'; New Questions About What Caused EgyptAir Crash. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired May 24, 2016 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump is a disaster waiting to happen.

[05:58:51] DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You learn very little from a tax return.

CLINTON: He could bankrupt America like he's bankrupted his companies.

TRUMP: Hillary doesn't have a clue.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We believe in an old-fashioned concept called democracy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Iraqi forces backed by U.S. airstrikes engaged in a fierce struggle to take back Fallujah.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Violence rising as opposition to the Iraqi government grows.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are attempting to create chaos in the capital.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no hard evidence yet that this was terrorism.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something catastrophic occurred.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's critical for the investigators to get those devices.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The investigators are up against the clock.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Tuesday, May 24, 6 a.m. in the east, and guess what? This race is quickly becoming a flashback of the worst kind.

Donald Trump is all about Bill Clinton's past. All the old stories of sex and dirty secrets are new again in a new ad. And Clinton has a new ad, as well, saying Trump wants to air all the dirty laundry except his own, bashing his failed business record and tax avoidance.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So Clinton also taking heat from Bernie Sanders, who is fighting on to the final Super Tuesday, two weeks from today. Sanders predicting the Democratic convention could be, quote, "messy."

All of this as Clinton declines to debate Sanders in California.

So we have this 2016 race covered the way only CNN can. Let's begin with Phil Mattingly, who joins us now. Phil, what do you got?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

For operatives on the Republican and Democratic side of the aisle, there's one thing they agree on: this is an exceedingly important time to set the stage for the general election that looms. This is when you define your opponent. That's exactly what we're seeing, with attacks from Donald Trump, with attacks from Hillary Clinton. Everybody trying to figure out a way to set the tone for the next months ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLINTON: We are going to unify the Democratic Party and stop Donald Trump.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): This morning, Hillary Clinton taking a new line of attack against Donald Trump. Her campaign painting Trump as a greedy billionaire in a new ad.

TRUMP (via phone): I sort of hope that happens, because then people like me would go in and buy.

MATTINGLY: Harkening back to Trump's controversial comments before the 2008 housing market collapse.

TRUMP: If there is a bubble burst, as they call it, you know, you can make a lot of money.

MATTINGLY: Clinton swiping at the presumptive nominee on multiple fronts before a union crowd Monday, issuing a warning about Trump's four bankruptcies surrounding his casino holdings.

CLINTON: He could bankrupt America like he's bankrupted his companies.

MATTINGLY: And sticking with another tried and true assault, Trump's temperament.

CLINTON: The last thing we need is a bully in the pulpit.

MATTINGLY: All as the billionaire continues to hound Bill Clinton's past infidelity, sending one of his top advisors to swipe at Hillary Clinton. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She overregulates. She overtaxes. She

overpromises and doesn't deliver.

MATTINGLY: The hostility spreading with both candidates, facing record high negatives in the most recent polls, but Trump is getting new support from Capitol Hill in the form of Tennessee Senator Bob Corker.

SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: His approach to foreign policy is something I want to hear more about. I heard more about it today, and I appreciated that.

MATTINGLY: Though Corker is still downplaying talk that he may be high on Trump's V.P. list.

CORKER: I'm not angling for any job. I think the best way to not end up in a position like those is to angle for it, but I have no indication whatsoever that I was even being considered.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: So guys, still plenty intrigue who Donald Trump's running mate may be. But it is really interesting to watch. You're going to see a lot of it in the days and weeks ahead, especially from the Clinton campaign. Trying out new lines of attack, trying to get something to stick. Up to this point, nobody's really succeeded in doing that with Donald Trump.

Clinton's team deploying all assets right now -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Phil, stay with us, if you would. We also want to bring in the rest of the our panel. CNN political analyst and host of "The David Gregory Show" podcast, David Gregory, and Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast," Jackie Kucinich.

Jackie, I want to start with you, because as Phil just pointed out, both of the candidates are going back in time to find attacks against each other.

So Hillary Clinton has found this 2006 episode where Donald Trump said that the housing market crash would be great for him. And then, of course, the $ housing market did crash.

And as we know, Donald Trump for weeks now has been going back in time to allegations of sexual assault by Bill Clinton. Both campaigns must have researched, right, that this will be effective with voters? Otherwise, why would they do this?

JACKIE KUCINICH, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "THE DAILY BEAST": It's very true. They're both angling for different parts of the electorate at this point. Trump is trying to erode Hillary Clinton's support with women and hoping these allegations might cause women to take pause and look back into her past and see, you know, we live in a culture right now where we, in "The Daily Beast" we wrote today about how Sean Hannity actually had several of the women who accused Bill Clinton of rape on yesterday. And culturally now, particularly young women, tend to believe the victim.

There isn't -- there isn't a sort of skepticism that there may have been, you know, 30, 40 years ago. So the Trump campaign is hoping to use that in order to get a new generation sort of taking another look at what Hillary Clinton's record.

On the Trump side, they are really trying to appeal to these blue collar voters who haven't really taken a shine to Hillary Clinton at all. So they're saying, well, look what Trump did. You lost your home. He would have benefitted from that.

So, you know, we'll see if either sticks with these parts of the electorate that both need in order to win.

CUOMO: David, how worried are you about this? That the people are going to be lost in this conversation? And I don't mean it in some idealistic way. I'm saying that there's a good chance that this narrative could certainly maintain for months.

I cannot tell you how many phone calls I've gotten in the last 30 hours from people who did business with Trump, who know Trump, who wrote books about Trump, mob ties and what happened with the casinos and what happened with women. How worried are you that this is the road that's going to be -- we're going to go down? Even if we don't want to go down it, they're going to go down it with their own campaigns?

[06:05:09] DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, when you've got candidates who are this unpopular and this negative, it's going to be nasty, and some of it's going to feel unfamiliar. Some of it's going to feel very familiar.

I mean, the attacks on Trump that Clinton is doing is really reminiscent, to me, of what the Obama team did against Romney in 2012, when they really went after his time at Bain Capital, as a forerunner of creating call centers in India and China, and outsourcing jobs. And that was not just a hit against him as a successful businessman. It was also an economic values argument about the kind of business that Bain did. That was the attack that was made back then. It was effective, and redefining Romney's biggest qualifications, being a successful businessman.

And here with Trump, too. If his greatest qualification is that he's going to make great deals on behalf of America, if you start to argue, if you're the Clinton team, that he's not that successful, that he's been personally bankrupt, that he was rooting for a housing collapse, you see where this is going.

I think as Jackie says, on the Clinton side of this, with past infidelities by Bill Clinton and so forth, this is really a pitch to a new generation. I think most of the electorate has made a decision about the Clintons here, but they're trying to reach younger voters, in particular younger women who may have a different view of it, and may be hearing about it in a different way for the first time.

CAMEROTA: OK. So, Phil, let's dispense with the attacks on each other that they're doing. Let's try to talk about the issues. Donald Trump has made some news in which he's been talking about guns, and an issue that's so important to Americans, and some people are confused about where he stands now on gun-free zones.

So let me play you some of the conflicting worry. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We're getting rid of gun-free zones. OK? I can tell you.

(via phone): I don't want to have guns in classrooms, although in some cases, teachers should have guns in classrooms, frankly. But I'm not advocating guns in classrooms. But remember in some cases -- and a lot of people made this case -- teachers should be able to have guns. Trained teachers should be able to have guns in classrooms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK. So that left people confused. He said, "I don't -- I don't want guns in classrooms, but frankly, teachers should have guns in classrooms." He then talked to one of our CNN producers and clarified. He said, "I would end gun-free zones in some cases. You would have people that would be properly trained. The way Clinton said it, it meant every student should be sitting there carrying guns."

Is it clear now where he standards?

MATTINGLY: No, not really. But I think this is kind of how he benefits, how he's benefited throughout this entire process. Right? He lays out a position. So people scratch their head. Opponents attack, and then he said, "No, no, no. That's not actually what I think. I meant a little bit more of this." And there's still some wiggle room in that position. Opponents attack, and then he can revise it again. I think that's what you're seeing with this.

This point here is this: He believes that some gun-free zones should be done away with. He believes that well-trained people in schools, and if they are teachers or security officers, or otherwise, should carry guns. But whether or not that position maintains for the next 24 hours, I think becomes an open question, this is the difficulty the Clinton campaign has.

They want to stick him on one particular issue. They don't want to attack him on his shifting positions. They want to continue to hit him on that first position. He tries to diffuse that in the interviews that he does afterwards, as he did with our own Jeremy Diamond.

Clinton will stick on position No. 1. You want guns in all of our classrooms. Whether or not that sticks because of kind of Trump's agility here becomes the big question.

CUOMO: That's a good word. Jackie, Phil's word is "agility." They don't -- that's not the word you're going to hear from the Clinton campaign, though. You're going to hear the word "vacillation." You're going to hear, you know, language about his, you know, flip- flop maybe, except that that even shows the thoughtfulness of position and, you know, reckoning that they're not going to ascribe to him. They're going to say, "The guy just says whatever comes out of his head in that moment. That's not leadership."

Is that too subtle a case?

KUCINICH: It's hard to say, because as the clip you just played, Trump is sort of all over the place. And I think this is why you saw some NRA members be upset with the fact that he was endorsed the other day. Because they don't know where he stands on these various issues.

Now, it just doesn't -- consistency should be an argument against Donald Trump for all intents and purposes in a normal political system. This isn't a normal candidate. And you just -- we don't know yet if these attacks are going to work.

You know, as we said at the beginning of this conversation, there are sort of throwing things up and just seeing, you know, what is actually going to have an impact on Donald Trump.

GREGORY: This is so clear that Donald Trump is not thinking through any of these positions. There are a number of position areas where Trump has clearly been talking off the top of his head. I mean, that is not new. He's been doing that throughout this campaign.

Now, there's a hidden strength in that to some voters who see him as not an ideologue, someone who doesn't have fixed positions, someone who's willing to deal. You might hear somebody who thinks that's reasonable to go in that direction. Both some of the partisans within the party -- NRA members, other conservatives -- say, "No, no, no. We want him to know that he's -- to know that he's on position."

[06:10:12] CUOMO: But that's the strategy, is that what you do is you cobble together a group of special interests, you know, not to use that as a pejorative, but here's your issue. Your issue is abortion. He's been here, here, and here. Here's guns. He's been here, here and here. That's what they're hoping for.

GREGORY: And wants to...

CUOMO: They just wonder if he has enough of a threshold of integrity.

GREGORY: Right, but Clinton wants to fix it. He wants to have Trump be part of a larger conservative narrative, whether it's abortion or guns. She wants him to fit into that narrative and that's where he's trying to wiggle away.

But I do think it's quite clear, and we've seen this now for months. There are a number of issues where Trump, because he does so many interviews, is kind of thinking off the top of his head. He's not getting -- he hasn't studied these issues or getting particular briefings on some of these issues. He's just kind of speaking extemporaneously.

CUOMO: He's watching us. CAMEROTA: Well, that -- that is actually a good decision. But, you know, I also think that it reflects where the American voters are. And certainly his supporters are, which is, not doctrinaire on maybe any particular position.

And some people think, well, gun-free zones, sometimes there are mass shootings in those. Maybe they don't work. Maybe a trained teacher in a classroom who knows how to handle a gun would be helpful. I mean, he's speaking to something that people have felt, rather than sticking on one position.

Phil, do you think that that's what's working with voters?

MATTINGLY: I think it's been one of best parts of his candidacy throughout this point. If you talk to his supporters, that's exactly what appeals to them. That he's not a cookie cutter version of a, quote/unquote, conservative. Or he's not an ideologue. It's that he says what people are thinking.

I hear that every Trump rally I've been to. Somebody will say, "He says what I talk about at my dinner table just within the confines of my own home." Or "He says what I'm thinking." And people, they follow along.

They're not so much concerned about, "Wait. That's not the traditional position for a Republican. That's not the traditional position for an NRA member." They think, "That tracks kind of with how I feel." And I think that's what's been appealing up to this point. It's very difficult to attack, and it's totally different from what we've seen in every cycle leading up to now.

CAMEROTA: Panel, thank you very much. Stick around. We have much more to talk to with you shortly.

CUOMO: For Hillary Clinton this is certainly still a two-front war on the Democratic side. She is up to it at her neck with Bernie Sanders. He has a new warning. Here it is. The Democratic convention in Philadelphia this summer could be, quote, "messy."

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton declining an invitation to debate the Vermont senator ahead of the final Super Tuesday, keeping her focus on Donald Trump instead. The implications? CNN correspondent Joe Johns live in Washington with more.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris.

Bernie Sanders giving establishment Democrats who want unity, even more to worry about this morning. It was in an interview with the Associated Press responding to a question about the potential for a messy Democratic convention. Sanders basically says that if it happens, so be it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: So what? Democracy is messy. I have, every day of my life is messy. But if you want everything to be quiet and orderly and allow, you know, just things to proceed without vigorous debate, that is not what democracy is about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: The Sanders campaign also attacking Hillary Clinton for not agreeing to participate in a debate in advance of the California primary, suggesting it's an insult to the voters of the state.

The Democratic Party continuing to try to get some sort of a peace deal between the two campaigns allowing Sanders to appoint roughly one-third of the people to serve on the party's platform committee.

The Clinton campaign looking more and more like it's all-in on the effort to focus on Donald Trump and the general election, though the former secretary of state is expected to compete hard in the remaining primary states, especially California.

"The Washington Post" reporting she's have surrogates on a media blitz today, hammering Trump in battleground states on his business record when the housing bubble burst -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Joe, thank you very much for that.

We do have some breaking news to bring you right now, because there you are in questions about what may have brought down EgyptAir Flight 804. Forensic officials in Egypt examining human remains for clues, and the search for the black boxes is intensifying.

CNN's Nic Robertson is live in Alexandria, Egypt, with all of the breaking details. What have you learned, Nic?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

Well, forensic officials in Cairo are sifting through what they say are 15 bags of human remains that have been brought and recovered from the debris field. They are trying to piece together those items. They say that all of the pieces that have been recovered so far are small.

Of course, the absolutely critical question is what can they learn from these forensic tests that they're doing that can tell everyone about what happened onboard that aircraft?

And right now, they are saying that it is too soon to say whether the plane was brought down by an explosion. They're really at the beginning of this process. Too soon to say whether or not it was brought down by an explosion.

[06:15:13] The race out at sea continues. There are two submarines out there now. The sea is still relatively choppy. They are still searching for the black boxes onboard one of the ships out there. We know an acoustic detection device that should be able to be used to detect the pings coming from the transmitters that are on those black boxes, a race against time. As we all know, those pingers, those transmitters, the batteries expire after about a month -- Chris.

CUOMO: Nic, there are so many competing pressures here. You know, we have the timing of the alerts that you're pointing out. We also have the urgency of getting answers for the families, but also giving them the right conclusions. So there are a lot of different pressures at play here.

Thank you for staying on the story for us. We'll check back with you soon.

Back to the election. Bernie Sanders is simply digging in. He believes that he matters in this race until the end. And he just got a huge concession from the Democratic Party. He's still saying it could get messy at the convention, but wait until you hear what happened and what's going to be the deal in Philadelphia.

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[06:20:23] CUOMO: So Bernie Sanders has relentlessly been pushing a progressive agenda, saying that this is about his ideas, that this is about the message, and he's making in-roads. His supporters are going have a big say in what the Democratic Party platform is at this convention.

Now, this is all done in the context of Bernie Sanders saying it's going to get messy at the convention in Philadelphia this summer, but what does he really mean by that in light of this big news that we have?

Let's bring back our panel to discuss: David Gregory, Jackie Kucinich, Phil Mattingly.

Phil, the news is, as you know, party platform used to be everything, by the way, "Back in my day, the party platform" -- now it's really about the candidates more. However, take us through how it could work in terms of who has control, but what's going to happen this time?

MATTINGLY: This is a big deal in the sense it's unprecedented. Traditionally, the Democratic national chair gets to choose all 15 seats on the platform committee. Why does the platform committee matter? It essentially writes the policy that the Democratic candidate will run on, that the Democratic Party will subscribe to. Now, this is non-binding, but it's always an important debate going forward, with Debbie Wasserman Schultz, obviously, essentially, the arch-nemesis of Bernie Sanders over the last couple of months, kind of did as an olive branch, she allowed Bernie Sanders to select five of the seats on the platform.

Hillary Clinton will get six. Debbie Wasserman Schultz will select four. That is a significant concession, an olive branch of sorts saying to your point, Chris, if Bernie Sanders cares about the ideas, if Bernie Sanders wants his policies to be considered, now he's got an unprecedented seat, or five of them, at the table.

CAMEROTA: So David, why, then, will it get messy at the convention, as Sanders is predicting, since he's gotten some, a large portion, of what he's always said he wanted?

GREGORY: Yes, I really think he really wants that big influence over the platform, which I think he has a good shot of getting.

But still, look, he represents a lot of supporters who want to keep this campaign going, and he wants to do the same. He's making very strong arguments about how it's a system that is rigged to help the insider within the party, and he's right about that.

But those are the rules that he understood when he got into this race, and he's far behind when it comes to both the pledged delegates, and of course, the super delegates, as well.

So he's going to play this out. I think we should remember that Hillary Clinton played this out, as well, going to California back in 2008. But the difference here is that this fight, this lack of unity, the fight with the party chair and the system itself, seems to be more deeply rooted, which presents a bigger challenge, I think, for Hillary Clinton, to win over his supporters. And that's the real test here.

She is in more negative territory in terms of her approval with Sanders supporters than was Barack Obama with Hillary Clinton supporters back in 2008, and be the other irony to all of this, at a time when the Democrats really need unity. You have the president of the United States sitting at about 51 percent personal approval. That's a huge deal. That helps Hillary Clinton and the Democrats tremendously in this election year, provided she can provide that bridge to get Sanders supporters over to her side.

CUOMO: Well, look. We're just starting to see, Jackie, what the evolution of the next phase of this will be. What will a Biden do? What will Obama do? How much will they own this process? You know, what is the independent flank, you know, of the electorate this year?

There's a lot of unknowns, but this is a big deal. This is a big crossroads for Bernie Sanders. Is it not? Because he's always been about the message and about making sure his ideas don't get lost. This is the biggest capitulation of that kind we've ever seen from the Democratic Party in the modern age.

Now if he keeps pressing with the same urgency, does it start to sound different, that it's about him and not the message?

KUCINICH: I don't think, with Bernie Sanders supporters that's possible. It seems like he does have a very loyal base of people who will go on the convention floor and fight with him. Remember, he's still talking about flipping super delegates.

So we're not even to the part where, even though they offered his olive branch, it doesn't seem like Sanders is ready to start the healing yet.

CUOMO: Fight for what, Jackie? My question becomes, if we're saying, "We want ideas to get in there. We want health care for all." Well, you got just as many seats, almost, as Clinton.

KUCINICH: Sanders has done very little to tamp down the belief among his supporters that he can -- he can make a go of this. That he might be able to fight on the convention floor and become the party nominee. He hasn't backed down from that.

So if you're going for the whole crown, why would you say, "Oh, gee, thanks for the crumbs from the platform," which is sort of this insider-y thing? Yes it's a really big deal in the grand scheme of things, but you know, when you're talking to the Sanders supporters, they're going to tell you, they want their guy at the top of the ticket. Nothing -- nothing less will do.

CAMEROTA: So go back to the point where Sanders predicting it could be messy, and Sanders does not think that that would be a bad thing. Listen to how he explained what might happen at the convention.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: It's going to be messy. You know? Democracy is not always nice and quiet and gentle. But that is where the Democratic Party should go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you think that -- you think the convention could be messy?

SANDERS: So what? Democracy is messy. Every day of my life is messy, but if you want everything to be quiet and orderly, and allow, you know, just things to proceed without vigorous debate, that is not what democracy is about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Such a dangerous question, the reporter asked it in shadow.

CAMEROTA: So Sanders likes messy.

Mattingly: The answer wasn't wrong on several levels from maybe his fashion and appearance to democracy itself.

Look, I think the difference between why people kind of were taken aback by this comment is what Bernie Sanders is talking about is having a vigorous debate on the floor about ideas. What Bernie Sanders supporters might take from that comment may be something entirely different.

I think what I'm struck by is, again, this interview came after the DNC concession. He hasn't toned it down in any way. What are the levers you pull if you're national Democrats, if you're Hillary Clinton's team, to get him on board? There are traditional levers. And this was, as we said, an unprecedented one with the platform committee.

Is there the threat that you're going to go back to the Senate and nobody is going to care about you anymore? Your Democratic colleagues won't pay attention to you, won't let you do anything in the Senate. Doesn't seem that he cares much about that. He was always alone in the Senate, as well.

So what are the traditional levers that you can pull that would actually work with Bernie Sanders? As of now, there doesn't seem to be an answer to that.

CAMEROTA: That's a tough one. Panel, thank you for all of that insight. Great to talk to you this morning.

CUOMO: And we have a very profound reminder of which this election matters in the first place. There is a major offensive going on right now across the world to retake Fallujah in Iraq from ISIS. And we're going to take you to those front lines, blood and treasure on the line. Unprecedented access, inside Baghdad's Green Zone. It was supposed to be the safe place. How green is it now? CNN exclusive, next.

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