Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

U.S. Plays Key Role In Iraqi Push To Retake Fallujah; U.S. Kills Taliban Leader Mullah Mansour; Trump & Clinton Escalate Attacks On Each Other; Officer Acquitted In Freddie Gray Trial; Polls: Trump & Clinton Locked In Dead Heat; Sanders: Democratic Convention Could Be "Messy". Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired May 24, 2016 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:31:00]ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: The Iraqi prime minister is warning thousands of civilians to flee their homes as the push to recapture Fallujah from ISIS intensifies. Americans are involved in this fight from the sky.

Joining us to discuss is retired general Wesley Clark. He's a former NATO supreme allied commander and senior fellow at the UCLA's Burkle Center for International Relations. General, thanks so much for being here.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Why is Fallujah so critically important?

CLARK: Well, it's a big symbol. It's the second city to be taken back. Key strategic location. You know, we lost 100 Americans fighting for Fallujah in 2004. It's a Sunni city and the forces that are going against it are mostly Shia. The Iraqi military and the Iraqi Militias, they're mostly Shia. There are a few Sunni fighters in there and this is going to be a big test for the government.

Can it keep its force together, and how does it handle the challenges in Fallujah because Fallujah has only got about 60,000 civilians left? It was a town of about 300,000. Mosul is the big prize. We've been talking about taking Mosul for months and months and months. It's three times the size. It's probably got still several hundred thousand civilians there.

CAMEROTA: Right. Still in ISIS-control.

CLARK: This is a warm-up.

CAMEROTA: This is a warm-up. OK, it sounds like it could be a catastrophe waiting to happen when you talk about the civilians because the military dropped leaflets warning the civilians to flee. Of course, that's easier said than done. ISIS is not letting them leave, so now what?

CLARK: Well, they're going to have to pick their way through this. Now, the first thing that you get in trouble with is the use of heavy fire. So when you fire mortars and artillery and you drop bombs and the air force is indiscriminate. If the civilians are there in the targeted areas they're going to get hurt.

But, then you've got to send the ground troops in and they've got to pick their way through this. Of course, ISIS has used civilians as human shields before. It's likely to happen again here.

CAMEROTA: It sounds like what the Iraqi military has on its side are numbers. They are outnumbering the ISIS fighters by a lot.

[07:35:00] CLARK: Well, it's numbers, it's firepower. It should be intelligence. But this fight will be an urban fight so there will be improvised explosive devices, mines, grenades, booby traps. All kinds of problems. And what the ISIS fighters would like to do is cause casualties. Delay, demoralize the Iraqi forces. There will be suicide bombers employed by the ISIS fighters so that's their tactic.

CAMEROTA: So, what's the U.S. role in all of this?

CLARK: Well, we've been encouraging it behind the scenes. We've been doing training for the Iraqi military. Of course, we provided some equipment there. As of now there are no U.S. combat advisors going forward. We can provide air support. But, ultimately, this is a fight the Iraqis have to win themselves on the ground with their forces, and they've got to do this to be able to move on to Mosul.

CAMEROTA: I want to ask about what happened with the Taliban over the weekend. The U.S. took out a Taliban leader with a drone strike --

CLARK: That's right.

CAMEROTA: -- over Pakistan. Pakistan is not happy about this and they've expressed their displeasure to the U.S., so how does this work?

CLARK: Well, we've had this -- it's a game with Pakistan. We know that the Taliban get their support from Pakistani intelligence. Pakistani intelligence, with help from the United States back in the 1980's, created the Jihadis to fight the Soviets. And after we left in 1990, Pakistanis maintained their relationship.

They like to have the idea that Afghanistan is their strategic depth against a possible attack from India. So, we've never been able to really confront this directly, and what that drone strike shows is that President Obama's patience is running out.

You can't succeed in Afghanistan if there's a sanctuary for the Taliban across the border in Pakistan. We've known it for years. We've lost several thousand troops in there. We've spent billions of dollars. We've never actually been able to grip this issue, and I'm glad it looks like we're starting to.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about a battle of a different kind and that is a political battle that's being waged back here at home. You're a Hillary Clinton supporter, of course. Are you comfortable with -- at the moment it seems like both campaigns, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, are going back in time to dredge up old comments and controversies? Is that how this is going to -- is that a valuable fight?

CLARK: Well, look, the problem is that no one really knows what Donald Trump stands for. I mean, he's made very clear he'll say anything to get publicity and to get elected and no one knows what it means. When I travel all over the world people are asking me what does he mean? Is he going to keep all Muslims out? And then I go to people in the Middle East and they say no, no, people have told us he didn't really mean it.

CAMEROTA: And what do you say to them?

CLARK: It doesn't mean anything.

CAMEROTA: I mean, when you're overseas, what do you say?

CLARK: I say it's a very dangerous thing for a president of the United States not to stand for anything because people all over the world -- they rely on America for consistency. They want us to be a reliable partner. They don't want us to be a bargainer. They don't want us to come in and say OK, how about this for an idea, and then argue back and forth about it.

I was in Eastern Europe two weeks ago and, of course, people in Eastern Europe are quite afraid because what Donald Trump has indicated is he'll go make a deal with Putin. And they call it "Yalta Two". You know, "Yalta One" in 1945 is when Roosevelt and Churchill mistakenly gave away Eastern Europe to Stalin. And so, people in Eastern Europe, even NATO members, are concerned that under a Trump presidency things might fall apart.

Hillary Clintonis known for her reliability. People around the world -- they know what she stands for. And one thing to remember, and this is hard for the American people to understand, perhaps, but when you're president of the United States you don't have that much control over the economy. You actually can't create jobs. You can have ideas and stuff, but unless you're just expanding government you're not creating jobs.

CAMEROTA: I mean, look, they say that you're creating an environment that is job-friendly.

CLARK: Yes -- no, I know. But it's -- but the big thing the president of the United States does is foreign policy. He has real control or she has real control over foreign policy and that's something the American people are going to have to look at.

So, forget about all the dirty stuff in the past because this is really about picking a president to take America forward. And we need someone -- our allies are asking us, our friends, even our adversaries are asking just tell us what you stand for and be reliable.

CAMEROTA: General Wesley Clark, thanks so much. Always great to have your perspective on all of this. Thanks for being here. Let's get to Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, different story, very important. So far, prosecutors in Baltimore's Freddie Gray case are zero for two. Will any police officers be held criminally responsible for Gray's death? Next, the lawyer for Freddie Gray's family. His surprising reaction to yesterday's not guilty verdict.

[07:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:43:30] CUOMO: The first trial of a Baltimore police officer in the death of Freddie Gray ended in a hung jury. Now, a judge acquitted a second officer, Edward Nero, of all charges in a non-jury trial. A total of six Baltimore cops are being tried in a case that sparked riots in that city.

The attorney for Freddie Gray's family, Billy Murphy, joins us now. Counselor, good to see you.

WILLIAM "BILLY" MURPHY, ATTORNEY FOR FREDDIE GRAY'S FAMILY: How are you doing, Chris?

CUOMO: Somewhat of a surprising reaction from you, Mr. Murphy, in the wake of this verdict. You said that you applauded Judge Williams, saying he did not bend to that pressure to convict the officer as an emotional response to Gray's death.

Now, as a counselor for the victim's family, ordinarily, hearing that an officer wasn't convicted would be upsetting. But here, you respect the rule of law as conveyed by this judge -- true?

MURPHY: I think the whole point of my reaction was to convey to the public that at this critical time, and for good and sound and decent reasons, we have to respect Judge Williams' opinion because it was the result of an obviously fair process.

Both sides gave full vent to the evidence in the case and they left it to Judge Williams' sound judgment, and he delivered a well-reasoned opinion. Now, that doesn't mean I agree with him and I'm not in a position, either, to agree or disagree because I, like 99 percent of the public, did not hear all of the evidence in the case.

[07:45:00] But it was the process that I was concerned about and that the Freddie Gray family is concerned about. They have said along they're not wishing for either a guilty or a not guilty verdict. They're looking for justice.

And so, because the process was fair and because the judge has this excellent reputation, both for probity and for being an aggressive prosecutor for many years prior to being appointed, a police misconduct case is for the federal government. He was a Justice Department civil rights prosecutor.

CUOMO: Right. MURPHY: That gives us confidence that our designated representative of the community, Judge Barry Williams, did a credible job. That's all we wanted out of the process.

CUOMO: Well, but you know that there's criticism, right, that these officers being charged, there being homicide charges in this situation were charges that exceeded the understanding of the facts and that this prosecutor had overreached and that that was a perversion of the process to give more weight to the racial issues involved and the legal issues involved. What do you think of that assertion?

MURPHY: Well, the Nero case was unexpectedly complex because of a decision that the judge made about immunity and the prosecutor's decision to go after one of the officers to make him testify. And there were a host of other very nuance legal issues that could have been decided in many different ways.

And so to both sides, even though both sides were completely prepared, it is a factor in trial work that you're never going to be 100 percent certain of how things are going to turn out because the unknown plays a substantial factor in the resolution of any case.

And so, both sides went in with a good faith belief that they would prevail. And because of a lot of the complex issues in the case, one side won and the other side lost, and it wasn't as predicted.

CUOMO: Right, but I'm saying do you --

MURPHY: Again, we can't put our finger on the scale of justice here by advocating a result different than the one which happened --

CUOMO: No, I understand, counselor. What I'm asking about is --

MURPHY: because the judge is in a superior position --

CUOMO: I'm asking you about prosecutor Mosby's charges. Do you feel that there is some credibility to the claim that there was an overreach on homicide charges in this situation?

MURPHY: No, no, because there are five cases left to go. Let's see what the overarching pattern is because the conversation may be entirely different if she gets five convictions from this point out.

CUOMO: Right, but again, of course you have to watch how they all go. That's about the fairness of the process. But I'm saying that when you look at the circumstances and facts of this case you say what Freddie Gray's family wanted was justice. They wanted fairness under the law.

And from what you know of the situation, which is more than most, do you think the prosecution either overreached or that now they need to change their approach in order to get verdicts that are convictions, which is supposed to be the bar under which they charge in the first place. They charge because they think they can win a conviction.

MURPHY: Well, I -- each one of these cases is different and we can't draw any conclusion about overreaching just on one case out of the six.

CUOMO: Two, really, right? Two.

MURPHY: You can only draw a conclusion like that if there's --

CUOMO: Two cases.

MURPHY: Well, no. The first case --

CUOMO: It was a mistrial.

MURPHY: If you take a close look at that first -- here's the problem with the press' view of the first case. The press has this habit, and I'm not blaming you for this --

CUOMO: Good.

MURPHY: The press has this habit of concentrating on the most -- what they think is the most important charge. Well, I've always thought, and many commentators agree, that the most important charge was the dereliction of duty charge. The failure to take adequate action in response to the death.

CUOMO: Right.

MURPHY: And on that count the officer who had a hung jury, Porter, was within two votes of being convicted. According to the juror who came forward the vote was 10 to two on misconduct, and misconduct is punishable by life in prison. And so, if I was Porter's lawyer I'd be very, very concerned that the prosecution was a hair's breadth away from getting a unanimous jury in that case.

CUOMO: Right, but --

MURPHY: It's not as simple as that.

CUOMO: No, I totally understand. Counselor, we've known each other a long time. I've got a lot of respect for your opinions -- you know that. Dereliction of duty is a big deal, but you know, it takes 12. They haven't gotten 12 and there's just a lot of curiosity around these charges to see how the process will unfold.

But, you're right. We have to watch the process and give equal attention to every case. And after each of these outcomes I'll come back to you for your perspective, as always. Counselor, thank you for being with us.

MURPHY: Thank you very much, Chris.

CUOMO: All right, you be well -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Chris, back to politics. New attack ads giving us a taste of just how nasty a Trump-Clinton general election matchup could get. We'll get the perspective from the Clinton campaign next.

[07:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:54:00] CAMEROTA: The general election campaign has yet to begin but already things are getting ugly between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. Trump tweeting just moments ago, "Crooked Hillary Clinton overregulates, overtaxes and does not care about jobs. Most importantly, she suffers from plain old bad judgment!"

Let's bring in Brian Fallon. He is the press secretary for Hillary for America. I see you smiling, Brian. You can't enjoy this.

BRIAN FALLON, PRESS SECRETARY, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: That's like a mild tweet for Donald Trump. That's nothing. I mean, if you look at the tactics he's deployed in the last few days. Even Bill O'Reilly, last night on "FOX News", called him out and challenged him for some of the personal style attacks he's been launching against Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton.

And Ithink that the reason why he's doing it is because his own record is coming under scrutiny. And in just the last few days we've learned two things. Number one, in two of the years that we've seen some of his records in terms of the taxes that he paid, he paid zero dollars in taxes.

And number two, we've learned that in 2006 and 2007, at the height of the subprime crisis, he was actually rooting for the housing bubble to burst because he saw it as a moneymaking opportunity.These two things, together, tell you that when he goes out there and tries to position himself as a champion of working-class Americans, he's conning them. He doesn't care about average people.

[07:55:00] CAMEROTA: I see what you're doing, Brian, and I have seen this with others on the campaign. And I know that you all think it's effective and it may very well be, which is anytime something comes up about the past or Bill Clinton's past sexual history you pivot over to Donald Trump's taxes or Donald Trump on the economy.

And I'm just wondering if you could just share the conversations that are happening inside campaign headquarters over at the Clinton campaign. Are you ever planning to respond to what he's -- all of the stuff, since he's not backing down. He continues day after day to talk about and dredge up the accusations of sexual assault. Are you planning to address those?

FALLON: Well, he has telegraphed his move here for the last several months so we're clear, right, about the fact that he is going to be refreshing these allegations from now until November. Our premise is these are old allegations that were litigated decades ago and I just don't think that they're going to work.

Even Republicans are advising Donald Trump against this. Rick Wilson, who is a Republican consultant who is no fan of Hillary Clinton, has said that on behalf of a client he was working for earlier this cycle, they actually tested these lines of attack and they found that they actually alienated independent voters, including women. And as I mentioned, Bill O'Reilly, last night, is suggesting don't go

down this road. So, if he wants to keep talking about these old allegations I think it will just deprive him of the opportunity to actually make the gains he needs to with critical voting blocks, including female voters who he's doing so poorly with.

CAMEROTA: And you don't have any plans to return in-kind attacks, you know. Obviously he, as well, has had a dubious past at times with women, but you guys are not going to go there.

FALLON: We are not interested in waging this campaign in the gutter. We think that the issues before the American people are too important to ignore. That's why we're going to talk about our competing approaches to who can do the most to improve the economy.

Hillary Clinton's the one that's got real plans to lift wages. Donald Trump is going around pretending like he cares about working class Americans when his record shows the exact opposite.

CAMEROTA: Both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton have historically high unfavorable ratings in the latest polls. Hillary Clinton's are at 53 percent and 54 percent in the latest "Wall Street Journal" as well as the "ABC News" poll. Why do you think that is?

FALLON: Well, look, I think that people are equating their numbers and I don't think that they're the same. Number one, his numbers are appreciably worse.

CAMEROTA: His are at 60 percent and 58 percent, so you know, they're in the fifties for both of them.

FALLON: Well, in terms of like -- I'm not going to argue the point in terms of the numbers, but if you look at the "NBC" poll his are about nine or 10 points worse. But, our larger point is I don't think that they're the same for two reasons.

Number one, the reason that he has such high negatives is because of things that have come out of his own mouth. He's gone around insulting huge groups of Americans. He's earned those numbers the hard way.

CAMEROTA: OK, and why does she have them?

FALLON: For Hillary Clinton's part, she has been the subject of an unprecedented level of attacks. So I'd rather be in her position than his right now because all we have to do is convince people that the story that they're being told about Hillary Clinton is false. Donald Trump needs to disown his own words.

CAMEROTA: So, you think it's just the attacks that are having it? It's nothing that she's doing. It's not her style, it's just the attacks she's taking incoming.

FALLON: Well, if you go beyond the fav/unfave numbers, to use pollster speak, and you actually look at some of the attributes that were also measured in those same polls, Hillary Clinton has huge advantages on what most pollsters will tell you are critical attributes in terms of what factors into voter's minds when they decide who to vote for.

Who share your values? Who represents the interests of middle-class households? Who has the temperament to be president? Who do you trust to be commander in chief? She has huge advantages on all these attributes, and so I think that that tells you that even as people are paying attention to these topline numbers, below the surface people view Donald Trump as objectively unqualified to be president.

CAMEROTA: Bernie Sanders was just on another morning show in a taped interview in which he repeated his prediction that the Democratic convention will be messy. Let me play that for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In an authoritarian country people descent. The context of that was that democracy is messy. That people will have a vigorous debate on the issues.

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Will the convention be messy?

SANDERS: Well, of course, it will be. But everything -- that's what democracy is about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: He says of course, it will be messy. Do you think the Democratic convention will be messy?

FALLON: There's a long time between now and the Democratic convention, and I think in that time our party's going to come together and unite. You've seen how quickly it's happened on the Republican side, and think of all the issues that they had over the last several months. So given the relative lack of differences on policy that we have compared to the Republicans, I think that this process will be a lot less messy than a lot of people are suggesting.

If you look just yesterday we had a huge step in the right direction in terms of the setup of the platform committee that will decide the agenda that officially represents the formal position of the Democratic Party. About one-third of the seats on that platform drafting committee went to Sanders supporters. That is a decision that we supported because we want to have a diversity of view. We want the Sanders supporters at the table when that platform gets drafted.