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Libertarian Nominee Gary Johnson On Third Party Bid; Critics Blame Zoo, Mother For Gorilla's Death; Rookie Alexander Rossi Wins Indy 500. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired May 31, 2016 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: The Libertarian Party putting forward a pair of former Republican governors to compete with Donald Trump, and maybe Hillary Clinton, maybe Bernie Sanders in the general election. A third party bid has its own set of challenges.

Let's talk now with the man at the top of the Libertarian ticket. Congratulations on your success, Governor.

GARY JOHNSON, LIBERTARIANPRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Chris, thank you. Good to have survived the weekend.

CUOMO: First question may be the toughest. As a potential president will you continue to wear Nike running shoes throughout this entire process?

JOHNSON: Well, as symbolic of getting away from the imperial presidency --

CUOMO: The notion --

JOHNSON: The notion that the presidency -- I mean, it's an entourage everywhere and New York has to constantly get snarled because of the president coming into town.

CUOMO: It does.

JOHNSON: Can't we do this a little bit --

CUOMO: If you win --

JOHNSON: -- a little bit smarter?

CUOMO: We'd like to discuss that with you.

JOHNSON: Well, you won't have to discuss it.

CUOMO: So, the ticket became an interesting challenge. You suggested as much when we first had you on NEW DAY.

JOHNSON: Absolutely, absolutely.

CUOMO: You said if I get it, and I said what do you mean, if? And you said well, let the convention play out. Why was it tricky to get the ticket settled? JOHNSON: Well, these are Libertarian activists and they very much care about liberty and freedom. As me being their representative, they really care about that. I just think there are tens of millions of Americans out there that have no idea what it is to be Libertarian and I think I do a better job of communicating that going forward.

CUOMO: What's the pitch?

JOHNSON: I mean, given that --

CUOMO: If you don't -- if you're not crazy about Trump, and you're not crazy about Clinton or Sanders -- we know that over 50 percent people polled said yes, I'd be open to a third thing. Why would the Libertarian be a good choice?

JOHNSON: How about the best of both worlds? The notion of being fiscally conservative and socially liberal. The notion that smaller government is something that really is desirable. That government taxes too much. And then, on the civil liberty side. Look, always come down on the side of people being able to make their own choices in their own lives as long as those choices don't adversely affect others.

And then, Bill Weld is my running mate. How about a couple of skeptics at the table when it comes to our military interventions. And maybe at the end of the day these military interventions have the unintended consequence of making things worse, not better. Less safe as opposed to safer.

CUOMO: You've been in the party system. Again, you were a Republican governor of New Mexico. Why hasn't this worked, the idea of a Rockefeller Republican, you know? Somebody who is more socially liberal but fiscally conservative. It seems that those middle ground positions have died off in favor of more extreme ones in the two parties.

JOHNSON: Well, Chris, I would argue that actually I think most Republicans, even though they might be socially conservative, don't want to make that public policy because at the end of the day if you make social conservatism public policy you end up putting people in jail for their choices. And we do have the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world.

I think that that starts with the drug war and the fact that, but for our drug war, there are tens of millions of Americans who are convicted felons that, but for our drug laws, would otherwise be tax- paying, law abiding citizens.

CUOMO: Except people see them as criminals. People see transgender people who want to use a bathroom --

JOHNSON: Exactly.

CUOMO: -- but they (CROSSTALK) as a potential predator. So, that's --

JOHNSON: That's the Republican side of this. That's the Republican side of this.

CUOMO: But, if they're popular positions within, at least, one part.

JOHNSON: I don't necessarily think so. And, of course, I wasn't really given an opportunity to represent that on the Republican side. I served as a two-term governor of New Mexico, which is a heavily blue state. Bill Weld served as a two-term Republican governor in a heavily blue state. We both made names for ourselves being fiscally conservative, really pinching pennies.

CUOMO: Can you win? Let's look at the polls. They have you at 10 percent right now. I understand the Johnson argument and it is a good one, that how can you judge my poll numbers when I don't get included in the polls.

JOHNSON: Exactly. Since the last time we met we talked about the fact hey, Gary, you're showing up really well in these polls. Well, Chris, since then I don't know. There have been 40 national polls where my name has not appeared.

CUOMO: So it's not fair on that level. I understand that. But, so they have you at 10, and again, this is a qualified number, but with voters under 30, I believe, there's a much more robust number. It's about 18 percent --

JOHNSON: Based on --

CUOMO: What does that number tell you?

JOHNSON: Well, based on -- what that number tells me is what's the harm in having my name appear all the time so it might actually measure that, delve into it, understand why that's the case. I really do think it's appeal across the board. It isn't just young people. Look, my message doesn't change regardless of which audience I'm in front of -- Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians.

Look, government's too big. Keep government out of our pocketbooks. Keep government out of our bedrooms. And then, these military interventions. Look, the world is less safe today. That isn't to say that this isn't well-intentioned.

We have treaties with 69 countries where we are obligated to defend their borders, and none of those treaties have been authorized by Congress. Let's get Congress involved in declaration of war. Let's get Congress involved --

[07:35:00] CUOMO: Well, they shirk it, right?

JOHNSON: They do. They shirk it, exactly, because --

CUOMO: You have the -- we talk about this on this show a lot -- the authorization for use of military force is an old one that is being used right now. The president has requested a new one. The Congress doesn't want to act on it for whatever reasons. With a lot of these treaties, very often, Congress gives the power to the president so they reserve the right to complain about it after the fact. JOHNSON: I mean, spot on, spot on.

CUOMO: It takes you to the how. How would you do it differently with regards to ISIS than what we're hearing from Trump or Clinton?

JOHNSON: Well, that it is a very real threat, but where is the open debate and discussion over what it is that we should be doing? Congress has abdicated its responsibilities --

CUOMO: So, you're saying you would pull Congress in?

JOHNSON: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Instead of coming up with your own plan unilaterally, you'd say you must be part of this process.

JOHNSON: And I would go into this with the intention of getting our troops out of the Middle East. I would go into this with the intention of not flying drones and killing thousands of innocent people. That's the way I would go into this and if there's an argument on the other side, well, let's hear it. Let's get it out in the open. Let's let the American public be a part of this.

CUOMO: A lot of the politics to date between the two or three main candidates has been intensely personal. You were passionate on one of these issues when you were making your speech after the convention nomination. Here's a little taste of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: As a border state governor it's incendiary to 50 percent of the population of New Mexico that he's talking about Hispanics and Mexicans in this way when the absolute opposite is true. They call him out on what is really racist. It's just racist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Trump will say one, being Mexican is not a race. Two, as you know, former governor Johnson, the people coming across the border illegally are often not the best that Mexico has to offer.

JOHNSON: That isn't true, Chris. That is what is so misunderstood. The people coming across the border are people that just want jobs. The jobs are there but they can't get the jobs.

CUOMO: There are criminals, as well.

JOHNSON: That's absolutely, so how about making a system whereby it would be easy to get a work visa -- a moving line to get across the border having a work visa so that the people crossing the border illegally -- that the border patrol would actually be able to identify those people as opposed to mothers with children that are actually wading across the Rio Grande because of jobs that exist and they can't get over to take advantage of them.

CUOMO: But, is Trump wrong when he says they also send the worst, not the best?

JOHNSON: No.

CUOMO: There are rapists and murderers that come, as well.

JOHNSON: Absolutely untrue. Statistically --

CUOMO: But you have the cases like the one in San Francisco. Not only did they bash the sanctuary cities but showed that this guy had been kicked out. He comes back and he kills somebody.

JOHNSON: Statistics. You know, you always have the worst and I don't want to, in any way, defend the worst. But, statistically, legal -- illegal immigrants commit far less crime than U.S. citizens. That's statistically speaking.

CUOMO: Are you ready for Donald Trump once you're in this thing and he recognizes you to give you a big punch in the nose for calling him a racist?

JOHNSON: I think that they've already started coming, so you know, Donald (hand gesture).

CUOMO: That's an interesting rebuttal you have there, governor.

JOHNSON: (Laughing) I don't know.

CUOMO: I don't know how it's going to go over --

JOHNSON: I don't know.

CUOMO: -- but it may get a reaction. Governor Johnson, congratulations on being at the top of the ticket.

JOHNSON: Thank you, thank you.

CUOMO: As the race goes on, you know, you're always welcome here at NEW DAY to talk about what's happening.

JOHNSON: I very much appreciate that. Thank you.

CUOMO: All right -- Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Chris. Back to another story that's getting so much attention. The Cincinnati Zoo said it had to shoot its gorilla after the gorilla took hold of a small boy who fell into its enclosure, but critics say this was not necessary. Many blame the boy's parents. We get insight from a renowned animal expert, Jack Hanna, next.

[07:39:05]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:42:30]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THANE MAYNARD, DIRECTOR, CINCINNATI ZOO: Naturally, we did not take the shooting of Harambe lightly but that child's life was in danger. And people who question that or are Monday morning quarterbacks or second-guessers, don't understand that you can't take a risk with a silverback gorilla.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: That was the director of the Cincinnati Zoo claiming they had no choice but to shoot and kill a rare silverback gorilla in order to save a young boy's life. But some have speculated that the animal may have been trying to protect the child after the child entered the gorilla's enclosure.

Joining us by phone, someone who knows all about these gorillas. He knows them well, Jack Hanna. He's the director emeritus of the Columbus Zoo in Ohio, and the host of the hit television series "Jack Hanna's Into the Wild" and "Jack Hanna's Wild Countdown". Good morning, Jack.

JACK HANNA, DIRECTOR EMERITUS, COLUMBUS ZOO & AQUARIUM (via telephone): Good morning.

CAMEROTA: Jack, you have a house in Rwanda, just a couple of miles away from where these gorillas live in the wild. You know their behavior well. (Video playing) When you watch this video of this gorilla dragging this little boy around like rag doll, what was the gorilla doing?

HANNA: The gorilla was very alarmed, very upset. He's a silverback. Some people are saying they have seen gorillas hold the babies. That happened 20 years ago in the Brookfield Zoo. The child was picked up by a female gorilla that happened to be raised at the Columbus Zoo here. We don't do that anymore. So, therefore, that female picked up that gorilla because she'd been raised by humans. Plus, it was a female.

We have a silverback that's upset. You have a stick of dynamite. You don't have a split decision time. The first thing that alarmed me when I saw him drag that child through there, with people screaming upstairs, with the rest of his family going in the building. You understand, that gorilla is totally confused right now.

What would happen if we tranquilize him? Everyone wants to know why that wouldn't work. It's very simple why it wouldn't work. It's like you standing there talking to me. All of a sudden you get popped by a big old tranquilizer, because I've been in the wild with the gorillas with veterinarians on the border, by the way. I've lived in Rwanda for 20 something years as our home. I work with zoo gorillas at the Columbus Zoo, which had the first gorilla in the world to be born here. We have five generations here.

So the point I'm getting at is I've seen both sides of the fence. I can tell you now that that gorilla was beyond upset. The minute he was popped with that tranquilizer you would have a child -- I don't even want to go into it. You wouldn't want to know.

CAMEROTA: Yes, yes. I mean, obviously, the alternative for the witnesses to have seen what could have happened would have been so much worse. But it's interesting, Jack, to hear you say that you think that the gorilla was like a stick of dynamite because the witnesses on site -- I mean, part of why there's this pushback today that the gorilla didn't need to be killed is because the witnesses describe Harambe -- they say him trying to protect the boy, they say.

[07:45:00] That he pulled up the little boy's pants at one point. He was holding the little boy's hand, as you can see at some point. He seemed to be guarding the little boy. So, is it possible that there were moments that he was protective of the boy?

HANNA: Well, you could call it that but you don't know with a silverback. You don't know. I've seen them in the wild and the other younger males try to come in to the larger males. That's a whole different situation. I realize that. I've seen what can happen. I've seen the gorillas --a gorilla with a green coconut, which you can't even open with a sledgehammer -- I've seen him take it and squish it like a marshmallow -- just like a marshmallow.

All he had to do was grab that child with just that one hand to do so much damage like a fatality, for example, in a split second. You don't know. For example, if that was my kid, as I told visitors -- what if that was your child in there? What would they say?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HANNA: So, I mean, it's a no-win situation for the Cincinnati Zoo. However, you have human rights and you have animal rights. No one loves gorillas more in the animal world than Jack Hanna's family in the zoo world than the Cincinnati Zoo. None of us do. It's a terrible situation but they did the right thing and they had to do it. It's not worth you sitting here talking today about a child, is what I think.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, Jack, to hear you say that you've seen these gorillas take a green coconut and squish it in one hand --

HANNA: Yes, I have.

CAMEROTA: -- like a marshmallow. I mean, that's pretty evocative. That's all you kind of need to know about what could have happened to this boy.

HANNA: Right.

CAMEROTA: But Jack, Iwant to bring up something that you brought up, and you said that we had seen these gorillas -- these silverback gorillas -- acting gently back in 1986, and we have some video of this. This was at the London Zoo. And this is also what some of the people who now are questioning the Cincinnati Zoo's action -- what they point to.

It was this little 5-year-old boy. It's still pictures but, basically, you can get the point. A 5-year-old boy fell into the gorilla's enclosure and that gorilla, Jumbo, came over and caressed the back of this little unconscious boy's back. The boy lost consciousness when he fell in and the gorilla took care of the little boy and sort of kept all the other gorillas in the enclosure away while he petted the little boy. Wasn't that a male gorilla, as well?

HANNA: Was the little boy unconscious or conscious?

CAMEROTA: Unconscious.

HANNA: All right. There's a very good possibility (ph). The one that essentially 20 or so years ago up at Brookfield was also unconscious. This child's unconscious. This child is not unconscious, is it? This child is screaming, correct? I know that because people heard it. The child is screaming wanting to get away from the gorilla at that point. And, obviously, what would the gorilla have done after we saw the last scene.

What would that gorilla have done again when he was popped by the thing and the child is still screaming? What would -- as an animal, I would say to myself, my gosh, what's happening here. I just got hurt, my gosh. You know, you're taking a chance on a human being's life here and it just -- you can't do that.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Jack Hanna, it is great to get your expertise. No one, again, knows these silverback gorillas better than you. Thank you for helping to put some of this protest to rest in terms of what else the zoo could have done. Jack, thanks so much for being on NEW DAY.

HANNA: No, thank you. Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: We appreciate it. OK, so when Jack Hanna has seen a green coconut be squished with one hand by the gorilla like a marshmallow, I think that puts it to rest.

CUOMO: Except that it doesn't for people who don't understand what the capacity of a gorilla is. And when you see the gorilla standing over the child the way he was --

CAMEROTA: Looking protective.

CUOMO: It looks different than what we're used to seeing with like a jungle cat or something like that.

CAMEROTA: Yes, yes.

CUOMO: It is like mauling you at 100 percent of the time. So, I think it's easy to be confused by what you're seeing and what it means to people who have to try to control something that can crush a coconut like a marshmallow. And what I keep saying to people online is, I get your reservations, but what if it were your kid?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUOMO: And I haven't had one come back yet and said oh, I would have said wait, wait, wait. Don't do anything to the gorilla yet.

CAMEROTA: And Iunderstand the tragedy. It was a tragedy all the way around. But it was really helpful to get Jack Hanna's perspective there.

CUOMO: Yes. So, how about a good story today? How about an amazing story today? How about something we almost never see? Someone drinking milk. No, no, no. That special milk at the Brickyard. An American rookie, maybe the most unlikely driver to win the Indy 500, but that's what Alexander Rossi did. He beat the odds. He joins us now. That trophy is a big as he is. We're going to talk about the thrill of victory and how he won this race. Stay with us.

[07:49:50]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:53:35]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- is going to win the 100th Indianapolis 500 mile race. California's Alexander Rossi to the checkered flag, and he's done it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Checkered flag -- you just won the Indy 500, baby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Talk about your long shots. Twenty-four-year-old rookie, Alexander Rossi, winning the Indy 500. And he did it by taking this big gamble to conserve fuel, literally running on fumes as he took the checkered flag. In fact, his car actually had to be towed to the winner's circle so he could celebrate with the traditional swig of milk.

We have the champ with us. Alexander Rossi, congratulations. Great to have you here. It really is.

ALEXANDER ROSSI, INDY 500 WINNER: Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: Good to have you.

CUOMO: So, are we exaggerating what the stakes were at the end of this race? That literally the car was on fumes. How dire was the situation?

ROSSI: It was pretty dire. We ran out of gas kind of out of turn four coming down to the start/finish line and it was, obviously, the longest time that it took for me the entire month of May to get there. But also, it was the most stressful, obviously, because I knew that there was cars coming in probably 100 miles an hour quicker than I was going and I was constantly looking in my mirror at the others in my mirror and I was just like, wow Ifinally crossed and there's no one to my right. It was just like relief and that's kind of the joy that was expressed over the radio. CAMEROTA: And you did that intentionally. See, I run out of gas unintentionally.

ROSSI: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And you did it intentionally and you say you had to -- since you knew you were going to do that you had to get creative about what else you did, like what?

[07:55:00] ROSSI: Yes, I don't think we meant to have it that far intentionally. We knew we were going to be short on fuel based on the pit strategy that we had chose. So I was in a very fortunate situation to go have unbelievable teammates and Andretti Autosport who were willing to, based on their race not unfolding the way it needed to would go in front of me and kind of help me tow around.

CAMEROTA: You draft them?

ROSSI: Yes, I draft them and used the (INAUDIBLE) so I could get around the track at the similar speed using 40 or 50 percent less throttle than others.

CAMEROTA: That's incredible.

CUOMO: You know, they are a poised group, you know, even when they're young -- 24 years old -- they're poised. But, has this hit you yet that you're going to have one of those chrome heads on the trophy is going to be a little Rossi head on there?

ROSSI: If you put it like that.

CUOMO: Has it sunk in yet that this is the race, man. This is the Indy 500. The Brickyard. You know, kissing the bricks, drinking the milk, that you're one of those guys now.

ROSSI: Yes, it hasn't fully sunk in yet but I'm OK with that. I'm just kind of enjoying it and taking it day by day, and every day it hits me a little bit more. But it is a huge honor to be able to be associated with everyone that's on the Borg-Warner trophy next to me, and to be able to do it on the 100th running of the Indy 500 is even more spectacular. I mean, it was such an amazing day and a privilege to be a part of that event.

CAMEROTA: I also read that you said that it was also such an emotional rollercoaster that you're going to need a psychiatrist.

ROSSI: Probably, yes, because during the race we started 11th and we were constantly in the top 10, and we had two difficult pit stops that dropped us to the back.

CUOMO: Were you last? You were 98th, right? I mean, were you --

ROSSI: Well, my car number is 98.

CAMEROTA: You were dead last, right?

CUOMO: So, your car number is 98. How far back were you in the order?

ROSSI: I was dead last, yes. So we had a yellow flag pit stop that went wrong and so we fell back and lost our position, so it forced us to try and so something a little bit different. And that's what we did, and we made sure that we would have a little bit extra fuel than the other guys.

But then, as we talked about, we had to find a way to stretch it and it was just a gamble, but the NAPA Auto Parts/Curb Honda was so strong all day that for me it made my job easy just to focus on saving fuel.

CAMEROTA: And so, do you have anxiety dreams where you wake up and you're just like oh God, I actually did win?

ROSSI: I haven't really slept much since Sunday, so no, I didn't.

CUOMO: And you have another race coming up, we know, but that celebration. Take us through it, just like the emotional aspect of wow, this actually worked, I actually won, and then those rights of passage that go along with the victory.

ROSSI: Yes, it's a huge relief that we were able to execute something that seemed like such a big gamble at the time, and it was something that was 90 laps into the making, and it was a huge testament to the people I have around me and the wonderful team of engineers that were calculating the fuel mileage, literally, every single corner and relaying the information that I needed to know.

CUOMO: So, what was it like? What were you getting in your ear in terms of like --

ROSSI: I was getting a number, like a miles per gallon number, and it was 35 percent more than I'd ever had before so, like we talked about, I had to find a way to save that fuel and at periods of time I was actually pulling in the clutch and coasting. So, it was pretty aggressive, the fuel saving, but we were able to get it done.

CAMEROTA: So how does your life change now?

ROSSI: It just gets busier and there's a lot more people that want to know the story and everything, which is great. And it's a wonderful platform for Indy car and for people to know why this sport is so special and what makes the Indianapolis 500 the greatest race in the world.

CUOMO: Expectations now? You were a rookie, you want to try to do well, you want to try and stay with the team, now you're a champion of the Indy 500.

ROSSI: You know, what happened last week and one of the main things is we got a lot of points. So we got double the points for winning that race, as you normally do, which put us firmly into championship contention. We're sixth in the championship. There's a race this weekend in Detroit and we'll be looking to carry this momentum forward there in a couple of days. CAMEROTA: You're going to need a big mantle for that trophy. It's taller and heavier than me. Alexander Rossi, thanks so much. It's great to talk to you this morning.

ROSSI: Thank you very much, Chris.

CUOMO: Italian.

CAMEROTA: I know. I noted that.

CUOMO: Enough said, enough said. We're following a lot of news this morning. The latest outrage over what happened to that gorilla and that kid in that Cleveland (sic) zoo, so let's get right to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dramatic moments at a Bernie Sanders rally.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We don't get intimidated easily.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We won. We, we -- I'm just a messenger.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is not a reality show. It's not just politics.

TRUMP: Hillary can't even beat Bernie, and beating Bernie would not be tough.

SANDERS: I'll do everything I can to see that Trump is defeated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gorilla has the child.

MAYNARD: This child was being dragged around. This is not a gentle thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was he looking at this child to protect or was he looking at it as just a rag doll?

MAYNARD: There was no other decision to make.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rio de Janeiro, the host of the 2016 Summer Olympics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything's going to be ready on time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't come here expecting everything to be perfect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are Rio's Olympics somehow cursed?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your new day. It's Tuesday, May 31st, 8:00 in the east.