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Will Congress Act On Deadly Police Shootings?; Interview with Rep. Jim Jordan; Lawmakers To Grill FBI Director On Clinton Emails; New Video Of Deadly Baton Rouge Police Shooting; Witness To Baton Rouge Shooting Speaks Out; Interview with Rep. Ben LuJan. Aired 7:30- 8a ET

Aired July 07, 2016 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: There's plenty of room for oversight on a federal level. Joining us right now is Republican congressman Jim Jordan, of Ohio. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee.

Congressman, sometimes fate creates a change of direction. Yes, you have questions about the FBI ruling on Hillary Clinton's email situation. Yes, you want to know how they came to the conclusion they did not to prosecute. But when you see these shootings, does it make you think that maybe that's a better discussion I'd be having right now than the politics of email?

REP. JIM JORDAN (R), OHIO: Well first, Chris, our hearts, our thoughts, our prayers go out to this family -- some of the family you just had on as guests, obviously. And I was struck, too, by the composure of the lady. I've just briefly seen the video and heard you talking about it here as we were waiting, but our hearts and thoughts go out to them.

It's a very troubling video and I'm sure there's going to be an investigation, and appropriately so. Let's find out what happened here. But I'm troubled by the video, as I'm sure all your viewers are and you are. And, as Alisyn, I think, said earlier, I was struck by the composure of everyone who spoke this morning, the young lady in the video and the guests you just had on who were part of his family.

CUOMO: You know, part of it is personal poise, part of it, I think, sadly, is familiarity with the circumstances that for so many blacks in this country African-Americans have to deal with the reality of what to do. You heard that mother say that even though her son is full-grown, comply, comply, comply. That it was a like a mantra in their house and that that's what they have to send their kids out with every day, is to be careful. That if the police come into your midst this is how you have to act.

JORDAN: Sure.

CUOMO: Now, of course, there's a part of that that is an insecurity, there's a part of that that's a reality, but these are big issues to discuss. Congress could have a role, could they not, especially when it comes to the funding for a lot of these things, like body cameras, which they did not have at this force in Minnesota. JORDAN: Yes, of course, and my guess is there will be some type of

hearings and -- you know, we're talking about the gun issue a lot here, but obviously we want to do things that are consistent with the Second Amendment. But, as I said before, I think everyone who sees that video is troubled by what they see and we want to get to the truth.

CUOMO: Well, it's certainly not going to wind up being a gun issue because one man had the legal carry permit -- he told the police officer -- and the other one is a police officer, so they have it.

But I understand that today your mind is also on what happened with the FBI. What do you think happens? What do you think the best case scenario is when you get Director Comey in front of you?

JORDAN: Well, there's going to be lots of questions, as you would expect. I mean, right now we're hearing from all kinds of constituents in our district. Lots of people are talking about the fact that it does appear to be, basically, two systems here. One, for we, the people, and another for the politically connected.

I mean, you have countless -- you had the example from what Mr. Comey said on Tuesday with regard to Sec. Clinton. You have the example that we've talked about before where John Koskinen allows 422 backup tapes to be destroyed that were under subpoena, and nothing happened to him. Lois Lerner targets conservatives and nothing happens to her.

So, a lot of Americans think there's one rule -- one set of rules. One system for we, the people, and another one for the politically connected. So, there will be lots of questions about how he reached his decision. Lots of things he said, though, about Sec. Clinton as well, I think, will be discussed. So I think it's going to be an important hearing. I think, obviously, a timely hearing in light of what just took place with his announcement on Tuesday --

CUOMO: Right.

JORDAN: -- and the attorney general's announcement yesterday.

CUOMO: But, what's the goal? I mean, he's not going to come there and announce that there are two systems of justice. And he's going to tell you that this statute that Hillary Clinton was being investigated around -- almost every case they've made, they weren't showing gross negligence. They showed intent to deceive and they were often deceived, themselves. As we both know, lying to the FBI is a crime, and he's going to say those two elements weren't in place here so there was no case to bring and win.

JORDAN: But remember, the high profile of this case -- I think it's incumbent upon -- when you had this kind of year-long investigation and something this important, incumbent upon the leaders in the government who made the decision to answer questions. That's how the system works so that the American people can know what took place.

Remember what they did here. She set up this private arrangement, unheard of -- this private arrangement. When it was discovered that she had it -- I mean, this was -- she stored everything on there. She, alone, controlled it. Her private email, her work email, her Clinton Foundation email. And now we know, according to Dir. Comey, classified information was on that.

And then she got caught. It was discovered that she had it and when she got caught it was her legal team who decided which ones they would keep and which ones the Congress and, therefore, the American people would see.

And then after all that, the ones that they kept, according to Mr. Comey's testimony -- according to what he said Tuesday -- he said they deleted the ones they kept and that her lawyers got rid of anything on their devices so that there's no forensic recover possible. So, think about that. They controlled it from the front end. They got to decide which ones they kept --

[07:35:00] CUOMO: Yes, I get it, I get it.

JORDAN: -- which ones -- and then they -- then they wiped the devices clean. So I think they'll be some questions about that issue, as well.

CUOMO: I get it. You don't like -- you don't like his conclusion. The problem with what you're doing here is that you are calling into question Dir. Comey --

JORDAN: No, no, no, no, no, no, that's not --

CUOMO: -- and by implication, you are undermining his decision --

JORDAN: Not at all, Chris.

CUOMO: -- don't you think?

JORDAN: All I'm saying -- all I'm saying is the American people are entitled to have questions answered and the way it works in our systems is -- in our system is their representative in the United States Congress gets to ask questions so that the American people are fully informed about what took place here and why it happened.

That's all -- that's all we're doing and that's what we're supposed to do. One of the key functions of Congress is the oversight function of the Executive Branch. When they make important decisions that impact our entire system, that's appropriate, and that's what we're doing this morning.

CUOMO: And you believe that this email scandal raises to that level of needing a congressional hearing to second-guess the director of the FBI?

JORDAN: You used the term "second-guess". All I'm saying is --

CUOMO: How are you not second-guessing him?

JORDAN: -- our job --

CUOMO: He came out --

JORDAN: Our job is to ask -- our job is to ask questions -- our --

CUOMO: -- he gave you what his findings were, he told you why he couldn't prosecute the case, and now you say you have lots of questions. He thinks he answered them.

JORDAN: Well, he may think he answered them in a 15-minute press event that he had. We think it's incumbent upon him to answer a few more questions from members of Congress, and it will probably take longer than 15 minutes. So we're going to do that today and we think that's appropriate. And, frankly, my guess is lots of taxpayers, lots of American citizens think it's appropriate, as well.

CUOMO: I understand that. Can you tell me of another time that you've held a hearing of what Dir. Comey has done?

JORDAN: We've had -- many times we've had the Justice Department. I can remember asking Mr. Comey about the IRS scandal. I've asked the attorney general -- or the previous attorney general about the IRS.

CUOMO: But, hearings about the finding of his investigation? You just said you want to talk to him about Lois Lerner because you haven't heard yet.

JORDAN: We have met with the Justice Department, as well, about the decision they made. Not in a public hearing --

CUOMO: Not in a hearing, right.

JORDAN: But, we've met with Justice Department lawyers about the decision they made.

CUOMO: Right. You could do that here. You didn't have to have a hearing.

JORDAN: Well, the hearing was scheduled and the hearing is called by the chairman, and I think it's entirely appropriate, as I've already said.

CUOMO: All right, I'm just asking you the questions that are going to come up from people, as well, as you intend to do today. Congressman Jordan, thank you for making the case on NEW DAY.

JORDAN: You bet.

CUOMO: As always, we look forward to hearing what comes out.

JORDAN: Thank you.

CUOMO: Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Chris. That shooting of Philando Castile in Minnesota comes one day after another deadly police shooting, that one in Baton Rouge. So we will show you the new video that gives new information about that shooting. We will also speak to the man who shot these images, coming up.

[07:37:30]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:41:30] CAMEROTA: New video of another deadly police shooting, this one in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. This is the death of Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge and it is being investigated by the Justice Department.

Now, CNN's Nick Valencia is live from Baton Rouge with the latest. What have you learned, Nick?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn. Hundreds of people continue to demonstrate overnight at the scene where Alton Sterling was shot and killed by police. There are calls for city leadership to step down. We have to warn you that the video you are about to see is graphic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PROTESTERS: Let my people go!

VALENCIA: The outcry over Alton Sterling's death growing as this new cell phone video captures a different angle of the 37-year-old's killing at the hands of police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the f***?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where you going?

VALENCIA: In the video, you hear the initial shots fired.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey bro, you f***ing move, I swear to God.

(Gunshots)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground.

VALENCIA: Then the camera jerks away, turning back to show Sterling on the ground bleeding from the chest.

SANDRA STERLING, AUNT OF ALTON STERLING: I was hoping that he died peacefully and instantly. No, he didn't, he suffered. He was reaching out and talking. It killed me inside.

VALENCIA: Moments later, another officer reaches down and takes what witnesses later say is a gun out of Sterling's right pocket. That gun, the reason why police say they were at the scene.

DISPATCH AUDIO, ALTON STERLING CALL: He pulled a gun on a complainant and told him he couldn't be around there. VALENCIA: A source close to the investigation tells CNN the witness who called 911 said Sterling was "brandishing a gun, not pointing it at someone".

PROTESTERS: Hands up, don't shoot. Hands up, don't shoot.

VALENCIA: His violent death sparking protests across the country on Wednesday --

PROTESTERS: Hands up, don't shoot.

VALENCIA: -- from Ferguson --

PROTESTERS: Throw cops in jail (ph).

VALENCIA: -- to Philadelphia.

PROTESTERS: We must love and support one another.

VALENCIA: Some protesters arrested for blocking the entrance to a major freeway.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We must love and support each other.

VALENCIA: Sterling's family meeting with Louisiana's governor, who turned over the investigation to the Justice Department and the FBI.

GOV. JOHN BEL EDWARDS (D), LOUISIANA: I have very serious concerns. The video is disturbing, to say the least.

VALENCIA: Just hours earlier, Sterling's 15-year-old son, Cameron, weeping uncontrollably at a press conference.

CAMERON STERLING, SON OF ALTON STERLING: (Crying) I want daddy.

VALENCIA: The teen crying out, "I want daddy".

C. STERLING: (Crying) I want daddy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VALENCIA: A source close to the investigation tells us that the two police officers involved in that shooting were interviewed on Tuesday night at the request of the district attorney. Both remain on paid administrative leave -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Nick, thank you very much. We're joined now by Abdullah Muflahi. He owns the convenience store where Alton Sterling was shot and killed by police, and he is the one who videotaped the deadly encounter that you just watched. Abdullah considers Sterling a friend, and he's joined by his attorney, Joel Porter.

Abdullah, tell us about how you knew this man and what you believe started all of this.

ABDULLAH MUFLAHI, OWNER, TRIPLE S FOOD MART, RECORDED CELL PHONE VIDEO OF ALTON STERLING'S SHOOTING: Well, I know him from about back in 2010, where I was working for a friend and he was out there selling C.D.'s.

CUOMO: And how do you believe this all happened?

[07:45:00] MUFLAHI: It happened so fast. I seen the cops pull up while I was inside the store. By the time I made it outside they were already slamming him on top of a car. After that, they backed up off him and Tasered him. And then, another cop ran, tackled him onto an SUV. From there, they threw him onto the ground. Both cops got on top of him. That's when --

CUOMO: Why -- Abdullah --

MUFLAHI: And then after that, they shot him.

CUOMO: Abdullah, let's go one step at a time here and I know this isn't difficult for you to talk about, especially with someone you considered a friend, but it's important. There's so many questions. Why do you think the police were called to the scene? What do you know about that?

MUFLAHI: I wasn't sure why they were there, but from what I heard they said -- there was a lot of people saying that they were called over there because he was threatening people with a weapon, which I find that hard to believe.

CUOMO: Why do you find it hard to believe?

MUFLAHI: He's not that type of person to threaten anybody unless he feels threatened.

CUOMO: You've known him for a while. He's not known to be a tough guy. Have you ever seen his gun before?

MUFLAHI: I've seen it before, but he would -- when -- he would leave it hidden somewhere until it would get dark and then he would leave it in his pocket.

CUOMO: Why?

MUFLAHI: It just -- a couple of his friends that also sell C.D.'s in different other locations have been getting robbed lately.

CUOMO: So, what made you decide to start videotaping this -- using your cell phone video?

MUFLAHI: I seen that it was escalating and getting bad.

CUOMO: And what do you mean when you say it was getting bad? Did you think that Alton was creating the situation? Was he resisting or did you think that the officers were taking it too far? What were you thinking that made you say it was going too far?

MUFLAHI: The officers really took it, you know, a little too far. He was confused. He didn't know what was going on, why they were there. He asked them several times, what did I do wrong, what's going on, but they continued to slam him onto of the car and Taser him.

CUOMO: Now, you turned the camera away but we know you were watching the entire time. Tell us what happened right before the shots were fired.

MUFLAHI: Right before the shots were fired they were on top of him. They had him pinned down. One officer had one hand and the other officer had the other.

CUOMO: So you believe they have him restrained because there's this question of whether or not Alton was going for his gun, and that's why the officers needed to shoot. Your attorney is shaking his head that he doesn't believe that, but tell me, Abdullah, why?

MUFLAHI: I don't think he was going for his gun. There's no way he was. He was pinned down. He was outpowered. There was two of them and there's one of him, and they were right on top of his chest.

CUOMO: Did you see what looked like Alton to be reaching for his gun?

MUFLAHI: No, not at all.

CUOMO: Did you hear him say I'm going for my gun, or did you hear him threaten the officers?

MUFLAHI: Not at all. Not while he was standing up nor while he was bent down.

CUOMO: Did you hear the officers mention his gun?

MUFLAHI: I heard an officer scream out "gun", and that's when right after they started shooting.

CUOMO: They shot him more than once. We believe it's four times at this point.

MUFLAHI: Six times, I believe.

CUOMO: There's also a separation between the shots. You say six times, which, obviously, we're still waiting for information to come out from the police about this. But we believe that there was a pause in the shooting. Do you remember there being a pause in the shooting before more shots were fired?

MUFLAHI: Yes, yes. First, they shot three times while they were still on top of him. And they jumped off of him and screamed at him "get on the ground" which he was already on the ground and shot at the time. And then, they released another three shots at him.

CUOMO: Did you see Alton do anything that would have made the officers feels that he was making a move at that point?

MUFLAHI: I don't -- I don't think so. The gun was never visible at any point and he was pinned down on his back.

CUOMO: Did you hear the officers say anything to explain -- what were they saying to each other after this happened?

[07:50:00] MUFLAHI: One officer called in shots fired. I remember hearing, at one point, that one of the other officers saying just leave him laying there.

CUOMO: Abdullah, I know this isn't the kind of memory you want to have. I know this isn't the situation you wanted to find yourself in, but the cell phone video you took is helping answer a lot of questions that you have -- that people are going to have about this situation. I hope that you're OK going forward. Stay in touch with us if you have any information that you want to get across, OK?

MUFLAHI: OK.

CUOMO: Abdullah, be well. Mr. Porter, thank you for being by his side -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, Chris. We're covering these back-to-back police shootings in the space of 48 hours. Two black men killed days apart. What will Congress do about this? We'll talk to a Democratic lawmaker about his ideas, next.

[07:51:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:55:00] CAMEROTA: Back-to-back police shootings caught on video and two black men dead. There is growing outrage across the country. We are seeing protests now. So how will Congress respond?

Joining us is Congressman Ben Ray Lujan of New Mexico. He is the chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. He has endorsed Hillary Clinton. Congressman, thanks so much for being here.

REP. BEN RAY LUJAN (D), NEW MEXICO: Good morning, Alisyn, good to be with you today.

CAMEROTA: Good to have you here. We just had on the family of the man, Philando Castile, who was shot in Falcon Heights, Minnesota last night. It was called a routine traffic stop for a broken taillight and then something happened and he was shot four times in the arm and he was left to die before paramedics or anyone arrived.

His family was just on expressing, obviously, their frustration, and the mom said something that is hard to get past. She, basically, said that his only misstep -- her son's only misstep was being black at the wrong time and in the wrong place. Let me play for you what she said about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VALERIE CASTILE, MOTHER OF PHILANDO CASTILE: They're still saying they ain't -- there's no profiling, but it is, it is. We're being hunted every day. It's a silent war against African-American people as a whole. I want my leaders to step up and hold these people accountable. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK, she's calling upon her leaders to do something. You can understand, obviously, that sentiment. What can Congress do about this feeling in the black community?

LUJAN: Well, Alisyn, you know, first off, my heart goes out to the family, and I watched the segment this morning with his mom and look -- I mean, she's right. The families deserve answers. There needs to be a thorough investigation that's transparent into these tragedies, especially into this one. It's important that there's body cameras with law enforcement officers so that the families know what's happening her, as well.

But, that there's an awareness, as well, as we look at what's happening across the country, but especially when it comes to gun violence in America. It's why we, as Democrats, are coming together and working with Congressman John Lewis to make sure that we have mandatory background checks and other provisions that we think that will make a community safer.

But in this case, as we talk about the tragedy that happened to this young man, the family deserves answers and we need to see what we can do every step of the way to provide them and help the families.

CAMEROTA: But do you see this as more than just this family -- more than just an isolated incident or two? Do you see this as a pattern where -- what we see in this videotape is that the people -- the victims are calmer, seemingly, than the police officers. Do you think there is something going wrong with training or awareness in some police departments across this country?

LUJAN: Well, Alisyn, clearly, we can see from the number of deaths and lives that have been taken in instances like this and in others that there is -- seems to be a pattern of sorts and there needs to be more training for enforcement officers all across the country. Not a -- more training is something that we need to be able to support and fund.

But, clearly, we can just see what's been happening across the country and see that it's not just happening in isolated incidents or in one community. This is happening in communities all across America.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and is that something that Congress would act on?

LUJAN: I certainly hope that it's something that Congress should act on. It's something I'm willing to act on. And I certainly hope that our Republican brothers and sisters are listening and listened to his mom this morning and last night to see how we can come together to do what's right for the American people. Congress needs to listen to what's happening out there.

CAMEROTA: Congressman, we had originally booked you to talk about the aftermath of the findings of Hillary Clinton's emails and I do want to ask you one question about that. How do you think this will affect her campaign? LUJAN: Well, Alisyn, the highest law enforcement officer of the land, the director of the FBI, was very clear. There was a thorough investigation here. The FBI director said in the end -- in the aftermath of his thorough years' long investigation that no charges were recommended. And look, Sec. Clinton made it very clear, as well. She made a mistake, she would not do it again. And so, look, we need to make sure that we move forward, as well, as we see what the FBI director clearly said.

CAMEROTA: But what impact do you think it will have on voters in terms of her trustworthiness and honesty? The feelings about that?

LUJAN: Well, I think Republicans are going to try to focus on whatever they can to try to distract the American people. But look, when the FBI director came forward and he said that he was going to give a recommendation. And before his recommendation came out I had said publicly that I would accept the recommendation, no matter what it was.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

LUJAN: And his recommendation said that there would be no charges moving forward. So look, we have to continue to reach out to the American people. Make sure that we're continuing to earn their trust every step of the way, no matter who's running for office, including Secretary Clinton --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

LUJAN: -- myself, or if you're running for county commissioners or local judgeship. You need to be out there working and making sure that we're reaching out to the American people and earning their trust.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Lujan, thanks so much for being on NEW DAY.

LUJAN: Thank you so much.

CAMEROTA: Anger and frustration boiling over after these back-to-back police shootings, so let's get right to it.