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DART Officer's Body Escorted From Dallas To His Hometown; Remembering Slain Dallas Police Officers; DART Officers Still Recovering From Serious Injuries; Is More Community Policing The Answer After Deadly Shootings?; How Racially Divided Is America?; President Obama Addresses Racial Tensions; Talking To Children About Policing And Race. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired July 11, 2016 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:32:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: That ambush in Dallas left three Dallas transit officers injured. DART, tragically, lost officer Brent Thompson, the first to be killed in the line of duty in their 27-year history.

Thompson's family just released a statement reading, in part, "Our hearts are broken by Thursday's events. Thank you for also for the support you've shown Brent's DART Police colleagues, Officers Cannon, McBride, and Retana, who were also wounded. Please keep all police in Dallas and across America in your thoughts and prayers as they deal with the consequences of that horrible night. Your support will help keep us strong in the coming days and weeks."

Joining us now, DART chief, James Spiller and DART president and executive director, Gary Thomas. Gentlemen, it is good to be with you. I'm sorry it is under these circumstances. What can you tell us about the officers you have who are still wounded?

JAMES SPILLER, CHIEF, DALLAS AREA RAPID TRANSIT AUTHORITY: They are -- they're doing well. We're making sure that we're taking care of them, as well as Officer Thompson's wife. I've spoken with them as early as last night and will be speaking with them again this morning, just checking with them. We have officers assigned to them and there's just an outpouring of support for their well-being and care, and they're doing great.

CUOMO: And do you -- so you expect full recoveries? Can we say that at this point?

SPILLER: Yes.

CUOMO: All right, good. That's good to know. In a bad situation at least there's some chance that things are going to improve on that level. Gary, what are you telling people about what to make of what happened there, and not just what it means to DART, but what it means to the culture of law enforcement?

GARY THOMAS, PRESIDENT & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, DALLAS AREA RAPID TRANSIT: Well, our officers did what they're trained to do. And when I say our, Dallas Police Department, DART Police Department, they did what they were trained to do. And, you know, you can go through so many drills, you can read the books, you can practice, but until it happens you really don't know. And that happened to us Thursday night -- us, as a community.

[07:35:00] And as people have said, this is not the community we know. This is not our city. This is -- it's incomprehensible that the officers protected the people around them first and then they ran toward the gunfire to deal with the situation. So they did what they were trained to do but five of them paid the ultimate price.

CUOMO: Chief, you know the bigger conversation that's happening and we're well aware of the irony that these officers were murdered in Dallas, a police department and a force that has worked so hard to make such progress in a major city that has major city-type issues.

What are you -- what are you telling others and what are you thinking yourself about where this situation has to go to make something like what happened in Dallas, and in any of these excessive-force cases that we hear about, a thing of the past?

SPILLER: Well, I think first and foremost, the president commissioned a task force, the 21st Century -- the task force on 21st Century Policy, and in there were recommendations. Those recommendations stem all the way from the federal level, to the state level, to the local municipalities and the communities, as well as the police.

That's a starting point and I can say for north Texas, as well as the state of Texas policing, that we're taking those to heart. We're implementing those and it's changing the culture. And one of those things is community engagement. Their thing that they emphasize is recommendations for the community and their relationship with policing and how to amend some of those bridges -- some of those gaps that we have right now -- communication. Also, there's --

CUOMO: Community policing has come up, I think, for decades as something that works and, yet, Gary, as you know and as the chief knows, as well, it's almost the first thing that gets cut in budgeting when it comes to law enforcement. How do we stop that? If we know it works but we know it's expensive and it doesn't show up as easily on stats that help justify a budget, how do you do something that works even when it winds up being vulnerable to budgets?

THOMAS: Well, and that's certainly the challenge. As you go through your budgets and you're weighing all the things that you need to do, that you have to do, that you should, that you could do, that's one of those things that we just have to ever-vigilant on. And that's something that while it shouldn't take this kind of event to remind us of that, it will.

And that's -- you know, as look at this event to look at what can we take out of this? What can we take and learn from as we move forward? That's one of those things, to make sure that we do budget. Put the appropriate amount of money in our budgets to do the community policing. To make sure that we're interacting with our customers, with the community around us. That we develop that relationship. And so I think that's something -- again, it shouldn't take this to move forward but we should learn from it.

CUOMO: Chief, let me ask -- let me just say that, you know, this is just one conversation in a much longer dialogue. We obviously care tremendously about the loss of your officer, Thompson, and those who were hurt, but how we make this something that we never have to repeat is just as an important a discussion and we look forward to continuing with both of you gentlemen. Thank you for being with us and, again, I'm sorry it's under these circumstances.

THOMAS: Thank you.

SPILLER: Thank you.

CUOMO: Poppy --

POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: The rash of police shooting deaths and the Dallas ambush attack that took the officers' five lives, the protests across the country, all exposing America's racial divide and how very real it is. How deep does it go? Much more on that, next.

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[07:41:40] CUOMO: Racial tension is nothing new but it is growing in America over the past week. Thousands have been taking to the streets reminding some of the 1960's Civil Rights protests. Is the country as racially divided now as it was then?

Let's discuss with CNN political commentator and "New York Times" columnist, Mr. Charles Blow, along with Georgetown professor, "New Republic" contributing editor and author of "The Black Presidency: Barack Obama and the Politics of Race in America", Michael Eric Dyson. Gentlemen, I couldn't think of two better guys to have this conversation with.

What is your gut response to the proposition, Charles? Where are we in terms of racial unity, harmony -- any positive word you want to use?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, OP-ED COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, I think what's happening at this moment is kind of young people awakening to something that has always exist and they're realizing how it impacts their lives, and they're kind of rejecting that and responding to that.

And I think that that awakening, itself, you know -- you could separate that from the protester, or violence, or whatever. That awakening, itself, is actually a very positive thing because only positive can come out of knowledge. And so you have a lot of new literature around the subject. You have a lot of new scholarship, a lot of new discussion. That's a positive thing. How we take that positive enlightenment period and move it into something positive, in terms of relations, is another issue and I think that is our challenge.

CUOMO: Professor, can you give me a plus and minus to how what we had to fight through in the 60's compares to today? MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, GEORGETOWN SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "NEW REPUBLIC", AUTHOR OF "THE BLACK PRESIDENCY: BARACK OBAMA AND THE POLITICS OF RACE IN AMERICA: Well look, there's no question that in the context of American history the development and evolution of consciousness that Mr. Blow has referred to has been precipitated by dramatic events.

Martin Luther King, Jr., Ralph Abernathy, Ella Baker, Jo Ann Robinson -- all those great heroes of the 1960's portrayed an America that was deeply and profoundly divided between black and white. We know race is much bigger than the black-white divide, but the black-white divide has been the major artery through which the blood of bigotry has flowed throughout our body politic.

So those big differences were huge then. We didn't have the right to vote for most African-American people. We didn't have the right to assemble peaceably without unnecessary incursion. Police brutality was atrocious then. The death of black people by lynching, castration, and the like, thrown in the river, Emmett Till, and the like. All of thatprecipitated a movement that really argued for the rights of black America and integrated us into the fabric of American society.

What we have now is undeniably a far better circumstance in regard to the rights we enjoy, in regard to the society that has been changed. We now have an African-American who is the president, but I don't want to say that's cosmetic. But it's a symbolic change that has not yet trickled down into the masses of African-American people, and not only that, into the masses of American society so that we have a black police chief in Dallas, we have a black head of DART.

And, yet, the system itself has afforded the opportunity to these black faces, but the system itself continues to perpetuate a legacy of inequality. So what we have to do is to measure our own progress, not simply from the 60's but to getting closer to the ideas of democracy, freedom, and justice that all Americans should enjoy.

[07:45:00] CUOMO: President Obama -- the professor mentions that we have a black president.

BLOW: Right.

CUOMO: He has the hardest time with racial politics because people will suggest he can't win. If he says anything, the black community says it's not enough. The white community says that's all he cares about. What should he be saying right now because he came out and said this is not who we are, America is unified. And obviously people are not accepting that notion, but what's the right space for him to occupy?

BLOW: You know, I -- it's hard for me to give him the advice on this, you know?

CUOMO: Yes, but from your perspective on it.

BLOW: On that point, I actually have been encouraged by a lot of what he has said --

CUOMO: OK.

BLOW: -- quite frankly. But the problem is that -- is that rhetoric or kind of discussion, even from him, is not going to fix this, right? This is a systemic thing that existed long before him and will exist after him. There's actually not much he can do to steer that particular ship in the right direction.

I do -- I do believe that he's been measured and it's been interesting to see him evolve on his willingness to engage on this issue over the eight years that he's been in office. But I do think we have to take it out of him and remember that it's bigger than him. Remember that it is systems that we're talking about and not necessarily about people.

I heard you guys on -- people kind of arguing before about whether it's systemic racism, as if systemic racism means a system rife with individuals who are racist rather than the systemic racism being a system that allows individuals not to have to worry about whether or not they are racist because it works --

CUOMO: Right.

BLOW: -- on its own.

CUOMO: But that is a complexity that many ignore --

BLOW: Right, right.

CUOMO: -- or that they're not aware of it, or they don't want to be aware of it. But I'll tell you something, professor, if I can remove this from the theoretical to the practical for a moment. I keep hearing one thing, that there's a point of resistance which has to be addressed within the culture of policing. And, of course, race is much bigger than just policing. But, as you said, it becomes a flashpoint.

Here's what I hear from police officers and people who are, in one way, sympathetic to their cause. Police officers deal with blacks the most, they create the most crime, they're in their areas the most and they are disrespectful to police, and that's why they have these problems. Now, whether or not that is true, it exists as a notion. What do you do with that notion? When I state it as a proposition, what is the way to deal with this that can create conversation that can create progress?

DYSON: We'd have to ask some very difficult questions that many white Americans don't want to face, white men in particular. Why is it that women who participate in those same streets, who police in those same streets, don't end up killing black people?

Why is that black police officers, for the most part, and Latino officers, for the most part, are not the ones involved in police- involved shootings? Why is it that an overwhelmingly disproportionate number of people who are murdered by police, killed by police, happen to be killed by white men?

If it was anything else we'd be objective. We'd look at this through the empirical lens of our scientific analysis and we'd conclude there must be a particular interaction between white, male police officers and the masses of black people that they police, that leads to some kind of interaction.

Now, if we want to deny history we can pretend that we don't know what that is. The vicious stereotypes that prevail in American culture, that manifest themselves in racial profiling, have a lethal consequence when interactions occur between white male police officers and black people in the streets.

And then, let me say this about the president. I, too, believe the president is in a difficult position but let me tell you the problem with his particular position. There is no doubt that the president is doing the right thing by going to Dallas, but he should also go to Louisiana and he should also go to Minnesota. Why? To show that he is concerned about the American nation as a whole.

When people say, you know what, if he speaks about race he gets blowblack. Can you name me one subject about which the president speaks that he doesn't get blowback about? He gets blowback about everything. So if you get blowback about everything, allow your principles to regulate your behavior. Allow your insight to guide you.

He has one of the greatest minds when it comes to race. He wrote one of the greatest memoirs in history, "Dreams from My Father", that deals with the complexity, the nuance, the sophistication of race. We need that president -- courageous, bold, articulate, and willing to endure whatever criticism he may have to endure in order to lead this nation forward. He does not owe that simply to African-American people, he owes that specifically to white people to challenge them in the most loving and encouraging way possible.

[07:50:00] CUOMO: Professor Michael Eric Dyson, Professor Charles Blow -- you deserve that bit of qualification as much as any -- this was helpful. We need more of this, we'll do more of it. Thank you, gentlemen.

BLOW: Thank you.

CUOMO: Poppy --

HARLOW: Absolutely, we need more of it and we will do more of it on this network. The racial tension and the anger that we have seen lately takes a very heavy toll on children. How do parents talk to their black sons about what's going on in this country and about how to interact with police? A group of mothers, three mothers, will join me live, next, to talk about these issues that they're dealing with, they're living with right now.

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[07:53:20] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

D.L. HUGHLEY, COMEDIAN, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't even go to sleep until my children come home at night. My grown children come home at night. I keep my clothes on -- and my wife will tell you -- I keep my clothes on in case my children need me in the middle of the day -- or in the middle of the night. And I just do not understand. We love our children, we love our parents, our mothers, our fathers. They are brutalized and nobody says anything. It's too much, it's too much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was D.L. Hughley talking about a sentiment that many parents of black children are feeling in this country right now, especially in the wake of those police-involved shooting deaths in Minnesota and Louisiana. The big question right now, how and when do these parents discuss these issues with their children? What's the right age, what's the right setting, what do you say?

I'm joined by three mothers who are dealing with thatdilemma right now. Alana Hackshaw, Natasha Gordon, and April Finkley. Thank you, ladies, for being here.I appreciate it. I have it very much. I kept a -- when I heard we were doing a segment, I was so glad that we were having this conversation.

And at the same time, I thought about it personally. I'm a new mom, I have three-month-old, and I thought I don't have to have this conversation, and that's not right. That's not fair. That's not America in 2016, but that's the reality. So let's talk about the conversations you're having and how all of us -- all of us can help.

Alana, let me start with you. You have two boys, two and five years old.

ALANA HACKSHAW, STAY-AT-HOME MOM OF 2 SONS, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR LECTURER, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: Yes.

HARLOW: Your five-year-old ran to you -- and you've been trying to shield him from the news, right?

HACKSHAW: Yes.

[07:55:00] HARLOW: And ran to you and said, I'm scared. And he came and asked if the police were going to kill him. What'd you say?

HACKSHAW: You know, to be honest, I was taken aback because we really have tried to shield him from the news. But I think with the -- what has happened in the last week or so, you know, as -- for us coping, we want to be informed so we have the T.V. on.

And so, I had to step back and just, you know -- I told him. I said nothing's going to happen to you, mom and dad are here for you. But what was hard for me was that I actually had to have that conversation with my son --

HARLOW: At five years old.

HACKSHAW: -- and that he was witnessing this. And for him -- you know, more explicitly, he was like mommy because I'm brown could this happen to me? And so it's heart-wrenching, it really is.

HARLOW: April, your son is 12 years old. He looks much older, right? He's almost six feet tall, 200 pounds, and that plays into the conversation you have, as well, with him, right? You said that there's no blueprint for this.

APRIL FINKLEY, MOTHER OF 12-YEAR-OLD SON, ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL, K-8 SCHOOL IN BIRMINGHAM: Right. No one told me -- and my son is -- he's very athletic so he looks older than 12 and one-half. But no one told me when you have a child -- when you have a son, this is the conversation that you have to have. You have to tell them to -- how to conduct themselves where he's not a suspect.

I didn't know that and in talking to my friends, no one told us. But it's something -- it's almost like engrained that, you know, maternal instinct kicks in and certain things you -- you're policing your own children, basically.

HARLOW: Well, you've said that there's a game that he plays with his --

FINKLEY: Right.

HARLOW: -- friends where they run to ring the doorbell and then run away.

FINKLEY: Right.

HARLOW: And that scared you?

FINKLEY: Whatever game that he was introduced to, he'd never heard of it before. But he came home, and I don't know if you're familiar but when he said it to me -- I don't know if he called it cherry-cherry- knock-knock or ding dong ditch --

HARLOW: Right.

FINKLEY: -- but when he said it I knew what it was because it's a childhood game. It's a prank. You ring the doorbell, you knock on the door, and then you run. And, you know, kids do it. And so he came excited. He was like mom, guess what I just played? And as soon as he said it my face just kind of went stoic. I said you can't play that game.

And it breaks my heart even now because he was having fun. I said you can't play that game and he said, why? I said because when your friend plays the game and he's running away from a neighbor's house or someone's home that doesn't know him, he's going to go home -- there's a high probability he will go home to his mom.

When you play it you may not come home to me because you'll be seen as a black male running from a stranger's home. And it may not happen. It's not about my neighborhood because I'm sure my neighbors would say no, we wouldn't do that. But it's a life lesson for him that you can't do certain things because you would be considered suspicious or a suspect.

HARLOW: Natasha, what about you? You're the mother of a two-year-old son. These aren't conversations you've had yet, these are conversations you're preparing to have. At the same time, is there a message that you want to send about, you know, most officers -- many officers are good people there to protect you and to try to form that bond?

NATASHA GORDON, MOTHER OF 2-YEAR OLD SON, SPEECH LANGUAGE PATHOLOGIST: Absolutely. I mean, as my son grows up Idefinitely want him to be able to go to the police, not run from them or have a sense of fear in their presence.

HARLOW: What will you say?

GORDON: You know what? The police officers are here to do a job. They're here to serve and protect, and that's just not for one set of people. They're here to serve and protect us all. So if you do have a problem it is right to go to your police officer. So I would definitely have that kind of conversation.

HARLOW: You said at the same time you feel like innocence has been lost.

GORDON: Absolutely. You know, children at our -- we have to have conversations younger than what we anticipate with our interaction with cops. Before, you know, you were having a conversation at 15 or 16. Now, we've got to have this conversation at seven and eight. I mean, that's childhood -- but childhood innocence is gone, you know. We're supposed to be out here playing and riding bikes, but now I have to teach him, you know, that you have to be careful out there.

HARLOW: Let me pose this, Alana, to you, as we wrap up. Is this actually a conversation that every parent, regardless of race, should have with their child in the context that is fitting to their situation? Is this a conversation that should happen outside of black homes, as well, so people are aware of what you're going through?

HACKSHAW: Well, yes, absolutely. I mean, we all know that there are conversations that black parents have with their children. But now, as a nation, as we're witnessing what is happening, in order for us to come together this conversation needs to be had in all households that sometimes there are a different set of rules that may be at play for black children versus white children, and so this is what you need to understand about your fellow Americans.

So that begins to, I hope, bridge a divide or a gap, a lack of information, and a lack of understanding. But we all need to be having these conversations. They're absolutely crucial.

HARLOW: Until we get to a day when we don't.

HACKSHAW: Yes. HARLOW: Thank you so much. Alana, Natasha, April, thank you.

GORDON: Thank you.

FINKLEY: Thank you.

HARLOW: We're following a lot of news this morning. Let's get right to it.