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Dallas Plans Memorial for Slain Police Officers; Interview with Former Dallas Mayor Ron Kirk; Jailed Black Lives Matter Activist Speaks Out; Hundreds Arrested In Protests Over Police Shootings; Remembering Dallas Officer Lorne Ahrens. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired July 11, 2016 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you so much, Alana, Natasha, April.

ALANA HACKSHAW, STAY-AT-HOME MOM OF TWO SONS: Thank you.

HARLOW: We're following a lot of news this morning. Let's get right to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect had been practices explosive detonations. We're convinced the suspect had other plans.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: This is deeply troubling and it should worry every single American.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the officers are the ones that are hurting, who do we call?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice will be served in Minnesota.

CROWD: No justice, no peace!

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Racial divisions have gotten worst, not better.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is he being arrested?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He didn't do anything.

BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is not how we want our communities to operate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, welcome to you NEW DAY. It's Monday, July 11th, 8:00 in the east. Alisyn is off. Poppy Harlow joins me. And again, it deserves a second. We are so desperate for good news. You like you're 16-year-old old. The baby is sleeping through the night, and your husband is on the job.

HARLOW: The baby is sleeping through the night, Sienna, three months old, came home from doing my show last night, baby was asleep, dinner was on the table. Good husband.

CUOMO: Amazing. A man after my own heart.

HARLOW: Good husband.

CUOMO: But I was nothing like that.

(LAUGHTER)

CUOMO: We do begin with hard news this morning, and it's in Dallas. We're learning more about the frightening plans of a gunman who killed five police officers. He had much bigger ideas. The city's police chief now says the killer was planning a large attack.

HARLOW: At the same time, hundreds were arrested in protests across the country over the weekend, this after those back-to-back police killings of young black men in Minnesota and Louisiana. The national debate about race and justice in this country reaching an inflection point. We have it all covered only the way that CNN can. Let's begin this morning with Victor Blackwell. He is live in Dallas. Good morning, Victor.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Poppy, good morning to you. The focus here this morning on healing. There is a vigil planned to honor those five officers killed and those injured here. This as police are revealing details showing that this shooter planned an even larger attack, even practicing detonations.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: We're convinced the suspect had other plans and thought that what he was doing was righteous.

BLACKWELL: Dallas police chief David Brown telling CNN the killer was plotting larger scale attacks.

BROWN: He was going to make us pay for what he sees as law enforcement's efforts to punish people of color.

BLACKWELL: Bomb making materials and a journal found inside the home of the deranged gunman suggests he was practicing detonations and aiming for larger targets.

BROWN: The materials were such that it was large enough to have devastating effects throughout our city and our north Texas area.

BLACKWELL: Police say the killer told them why he did it during a standoff, saying he was seeking revenge for the shooting deaths of two African-American men last week. Cornered in a parking garage, negotiations with the killer lasted about two hours.

BROWN: He basically lied to us, playing games, laughing at us, singing, asking how many did he get, and that he wanted to kill some more, and that there were bombs there. BLACKWELL: Officers ultimately using a robot armed with a bomb to end

the gunman's life, a first for law enforcement in the U.S. At the scene, an ominous message written in the shooter's own blood on the walls, near his body, the initials "R.B." a message police are still trying to decipher it. This as we're learning more about the five officer whose lives were cut short protecting a peaceful protest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, not my baby. Not my Patrick.

BLACKWELL: And 32-year-old Patrick Zamarripa, the engaged father of two, was a Navy veteran and just weeks away from his 33rd birthday. His family says his dream was to become a police officer.

LAURA ZAMARRIPA, SLAIN OFFICER'S SISTER: My brother left his country and his community. I just can't wrap my mind around it. It is just so unreal.

RICK ZAMARRIPA, SLAIN OFFICER'S FATHER: Since day one he was born he was my little hero. He was my little hero. And he is a big hero -- he is a big hero now.

BLACKWELL: Those who did survive the ambush, like Shetamia Taylor, are grateful to be alive. The Dallas mother protected her four sons when shots rang out. She was hit in the leg as officers were shot in front of her. Taylor thanking police for their heroism in the hail of bullets.

SHETAMIA TAYLOR, DALLAS SHOOTING VICTIM: It hurt. Of course, I'm thankful that my babies are OK. But somebody's dad --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: Now, this memorial behind me has continued to grow with flowers and notes from people around the city and around the state. But the big memorial event is tomorrow here in the city. President Obama, Vice President Biden will be flying here to Dallas to attend that. We also know that Dallas residents, former president George W. Bush and former first lady Laura Bush will be at the event as well, and the former president will speak at that event tomorrow, Chris.

[08:05:13] CUOMO: All right, Victor, thank you very much.

Joining us now is the former mayor of Dallas and former U.S. trade ambassador under President Obama Ron Kirk. Sir, thank you for being on NEW DAY today.

RON KIRK, FORMER MAYOR OF DALLAS: Good morning, and thank you for your concern and the concerns being expressed through your audience for what has happened here in our city.

CUOMO: Well, it is always unfortunate that it takes the worst to make people realize what is going on in different situations. Let me ask you something. What is your biggest hope and what is your biggest concern about what these horrible murders will mean to the Dallas community? KIRK: Well, I'll start with my biggest hope. And I know it may seem

completely counterintuitive to some people against this backdrop. But Chris, as we have this conversation we need to have about how we make sure that when we have encounters among the two most nervous people right now, and that's for the most part, young black men and police officers, that they each give the one thing all of us want, that they get to go home safe.

But for all of the discussion about policing and how we make it work better, Dallas is a great example of how to do it right. The rally that occurred here Thursday night by all accounts is peaceful as any as we have had. It was the third of these rallies in response to police shootings elsewhere. And from everybody I talked to, from people in my church and law enforcement community, I mean, everybody was working hard to get their message across but do so in a peaceful and safe manner.

And then we had this horrific tragedy. Now, my fear is what all of us fear, is that those who dwell in the dark corners of the Internet and who look for any excuse to execute their own perverse brand of justice will somehow see this as a furtherance of their argument that they should go out and execute more violence against the police and/or against young African-American males. And Lord knows that's not what we need it.

CUOMO: Leadership matters. Your police chief there, your mayor now have really been exemplars of coming together and saying the right things, and saying some of the hard things, and we'll see how that goes going forward. What do you think about what we've heard from those who want to be the next president? Do you think we're hearing enough? Do you think we're hearing the types of things we need to hear?

KIRK: You know, Chris, no disrespect to you. One of the things that frustrates me most about the media is you all want to conflate everything into a national presidential issue. What I would rather hear, I will be honest, from both of the candidates, including the one I support right now, is empathy and quiet and calm. Policing is the ultimate responsibility, at least policing at this level is the ultimate responsibility of mayors and police chiefs. It is what we live with. It is our first order of business. And, yes, we want support. But I would rather have them be silent and thoughtful and empathetic then try to rush to judgment and say, oh, here's all the answers. This is a very complicated issue that has troubled folks for years. I know there are people who have said oh, my God, it is worse now than ever. But the reality, this has always plagued relations between the police and communities of color.

CUOMO: It's true.

KIRK: The difference is we now have video now.

CUOMO: That's one difference.

KIRK: I would rather they take the -- I would rather they be more supportive of what is going on at the local level right now. I certainly hope they don't say anything to inflame it.

CUOMO: But Ron, look, what's the reality, though? You've lived it, I've lived it. Politicians avoid it because it is complex, because it is hard. They avoid it. And sometimes that winds up being egregious.

KIRK: Chris, you and I are friends, but mayors don't get to avoid it. I mean, that's the one thing, the joy and challenge of being a mayor, you don't get on a plane and run off to Washington for a month at a time, six months at a time, then come home and drop a pronouncement and go away. We have to live this every day.

CUOMO: Absolutely.

KIRK: These are our communities, these are our neighbors, these are our friends. It was our friends' kids out there in that march. So we may not get it right. But I do think as we seek for some hints of a rainbow amid this horrible tragedy there are cities doing this and doing it well.

[08:10:00] But we cannot -- there is a larger conversation, a common denominator among this man, Micah Johnson, and some of the others -- they're all vets who come home very troubled. We start -- I don't know how many times we can have this conversation about mental health and how we don't take care of those that we have otherwise trained to kill and put them back on our streets. I mean, I think this is just more complex than the quote-unquote "issue" between the police and the African-American community.

CUOMO: There's no question.

KIRK: But we need to have a thoughtful $ conversation around both.

CUOMO: There's no question. I wasn't talking about mayors. I'm talking about the national leader leaders. That's why I brought them into it. I've got plenty of the election whether I want it or not.

KIRK: I know you do, Chris.

CUOMO: I'm saying they run away from this.

KIRK: I also know having --

CUOMO: You look at Dallas --

KIRK: Right now, I don't care about that, because I know when this election is over, Hillary Clinton is not going to be down here being deputy chief of police. She'll be running this country, time to deal with a difficult economy, a difficult world environment.

I do think there are things Congress can do. Mayors are frustrated. On both sides, I would indict them. We live in a state that not a single police chief or law enforcement officer in this state was in support of the open carry legislation. And yet it was the number one agenda of our legislature the last time. That doesn't ease an already tense situation when you have these encounters. That alone is not responsible for this. But the reality, these are things that we tend to have worked out at the local level. And I think you will see a coming together of mayors and faith-based leaders and those thoughtful leaders in the law enforcement community to say, what can we learn from one another? What best lessons? What has Dallas done right? What has David Brown done right in training his leaders to deescalate situations? What have they done right in New York, Chicago, or wherever, it doesn't matter? Mayors are much more willing to come together to share because the urgency is manifested in places like right here like we saw happen in Dallas on Thursday night.

CUOMO: Totally understood. I still think the things we know that work, like community policing and transparency, also prove to be expensive, and that's where help from above can come in. And I'm not talking from way above. I'm talking about national leadership.

KIRK: Chris, don't get me started.

CUOMO: We'll have more conversations about this.

KIRK: I agree with you.

CUOMO: It is just a first step.

KIRK: Community policing is one of the best. Thank you, buddy.

CUOMO: Absolutely. We'll do it again.

Now, coming up, we heard from a former mayor who had to take on this position. Now, let's look at the other side of it. How about when you're a victim of this dynamic that we're talking about now. We're going to talk with retired tennis star James Blake. You remember what happened with him. He got tackled by cops in New York City. He was one of the biggest names in tennis, right. How does that challenge change who you are and how do you deal with it as a young black man today?

HARLOW: James Blake conversation ahead, fascinating one. And also one of the most outspoken voices of the Black Lives Matter movement this morning is out of jail DeRay Mckesson. He will join us to talk about his protest this weekend. He is promising to keep the pressure on. He joins me live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:15:43] HARLOW: Hundreds of arrests across the country this weekend in protest against the deadly police violence we've seen, two black lives taken in Minnesota and in Louisiana, and then five officers gunned down in Dallas.

Prominent Black Lives Matter activist, DeRay McKesson now out of jail after being detained for some 16 hours in Baton Rouge after protesting there. He joins us now, along with Opal Tometi, co-founder of the Black Lives Matter Movement.

Thank you for being with me. It's nice to meet you. DeRay, nice to have you on as well. Let me talk to you because this is your first interview since getting out of jail. You've spoken about the experience, protesting in Baton Rouge. I know you've live streamed a lot of it and you say that the police officers in that protest, you believe were provoking you. How so?

DERAY MCKESSON, BLACK LIVES MATTER ACTIVIST: Yes, remember, it was not just me, but so many other people here in Baton Rouge came out and were completely peaceful. We are just standing along the side of the street, chanting, and the police came out and started snatching and grabbing in order to create a context of conflict that they can exploit.

That has happened for the past couple of days here in Baton Rouge. I was one of many people arrested. The police across the country have killed nearly three people every day this year. People are simply tired of it. They're tired of it in Baton Rouge and across the country.

The protest is a way of bringing attention to things that otherwise would not be in the public conversation. So I remain disappointed in the Baton Rouge police because they have been using their power to intimidate people and people are no longer going to tolerate that.

HARLOW: Opal, to you, when you look at this horrific ambush in Dallas, the shooting of five officers killed, seven injured, the Black Lives Matter Movement came out and condemned that immediately after it happened.

And yet the shooter told police in the negotiations that he was angry, and wanted to target white officers, and was angry, and mentioned the Black Lives Matter Movement. Do you think that that event sets back your cause?

OPAL TOMETI, CO-FOUNDER, BLACK LIVES MATTER: You know, what happened in Dallas was really, really sad. I know that for many of us in the community, we are facing violence, and we have seen the consequences of police brutality, of extra judicial killing at the hands of law enforcement and we are mourning.

And so we are the people who really understand and actually are able to quite honestly have a lot of sympathy for folks who are mourning in Dallas.

And at the same time, we're very aware that we have to continue working to bring justice for black people, and to ensure that our lives are truly valued in this nation. We can't allow the actions of one person to derail the conversation.

HARLOW: Does it concern you that it may be in some people's eyes derailing the conversation, derailing your movement?

TOMETI: It concerns me that in some ways, we see that there are one off politicians or sometimes pundits and people who have an agenda who are misconstruing the facts, and are using this really unfortunate incident to cast a negative light on our very important and necessary movement. [08:20:13]That's what I'm seeing. I hope it does not cause consequences for us. What I'm seeing right now is that there is an extra amount of attention that's being placed on folks who are doing their civic duty and are protesting and exercising their rights.

And I'm concerned that there might be some efforts that are going to be used to stop that very important expression of their freedom of speech. And the disdain and disgust and very righteous outrage people have. We've been seeing, like DeRay said, somebody is being murdered in our nation. It is unacceptable.

HARLOW: DeRay, let me ask you about language because words matter. As we heard the Dallas police chief say, words matter. Some have pointed to the Black Lives Matter Movement and said some of the language used is anti-police.

I want to read three of your tweets and get your response to some of that criticism. Tweet from May of 2015, "The police are engaged in ethnic cleansing, America."

Another tweet from April, "The police are killing people, officer presently is akin to the myth of the American dreams, seductive but deadly illusion, nonetheless.

Then from last April, "This fear for my life language is the new execution motto of America's largest gang, the police." What do you say to those who look at the tweets and say that is rhetoric that does not help?

MCKESSON: To the reality is that we shouldn't have to protest. We are in the streets because the police continue to kill people day in and day out, without any mechanisms of accountability. So the rhetoric you hear is in response to the real life events that people are experiencing.

So here in Baton Rouge, again, I saw the police not fear for their lives at all, but still engage in violence with police -- with protesters, and that's really challenging. What we see on these videos time and time again is that the police is not afraid.

The rhetoric of the protests in no way matches the violence that the police has been inflicting on people definitely for the past 22 months and for a time and memorial.

The only thing that's new right now is that we have social media that allows us to show people, but again, this trauma has been happening for a long time and the police want us to focus on rhetoric so that they are not focusing on the lack of accountability for their actions.

HARLOW: I want you to both address this. The debate about all lives matter versus black lives matter. Where do you fall on that?

TOMETI: There is no debate. We actually know that all lives do matter. We believe it is so much so that we had to create Black Lives Matter. We know that there are people in our nation, black people, who are systematically being disenfranchised in a number of spheres in our lives.

HARLOW: Does it take away from your cause when people come out and say all lives matter?

TOMETI: What it takes away from is from having a real discourse about what black people are experiencing in this nation. It shows a lack of maturity for people who are expressing their thoughts and maybe their emotions.

They aren't understanding what is going on and trying to derail a necessary conversation and very necessary action to rectify the injustices we're experiencing day in and day out. It is a distraction.

HARLOW: Opal, thank you very much. DeRay, to you as well. Thank you for joining us this morning -- Chris.

CUOMO: We just experienced one of the worst kinds of distractions in the form of this mad man who decided to murder all these Dallas cops during an otherwise peaceful protest.

We're now learning more details about what happened with his plan and what the bigger plan was, and also this morning, we're going to talk to a friend of fallen Officer Lorne Aherns about who he was and why he did his job and how his city is coping, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:26:43]

CUOMO: All right, we want to talk about who was lost in Dallas. These are men who should be known for much more than just how they were killed. They're men and women who were injured who deserve the same.

So let's discuss. We have people today who can help us with this conversation. The president of the Dallas Police Association, Ron Pinkston, and Dallas Police Association Latino Community Liason, Jamie Castro. Now he is a friend of fallen police officer, Lorne Aherns.

So let me start with you, Jaime. Tell us about who was lost. Tell us about this man whom his friends called "Meat."

JAIME CASTRO, FRIENDS WITH FALLEN SENIOR CAPTAIN LORNE AHRENS: You know, the first word that comes to mind, you know, when someone asks me, tell me about Lorne is the word hero. Lorne was a man who truly understood what it took to be a Dallas police officer.

He understood the brotherhood, the camaraderie. He understood that this may be asked of him one day, was to lay his life down for his fellow officers, or for a citizen.

And as we saw that night, he was even willing to do it for someone who was protesting displeasure with the police. But either way, Lorne was that kind of hero. There was no hesitation to lay his life down. CUOMO: I read somewhere that obviously he was called "Meat" because he was a big guy, but the biggest part of him was his heart and that you saw it the way he did his job. How so?

CASTRO: Lorne was a man with gratitude. He was always wanting to take care of those who took care of him. Lorne was out there, serving the community the best of his ability. You can go to the Southeast Patrol, where he served, and you can see that his work still stands there.

There now stands peaceful vacant lots or parks where once violent drug houses once stood. That's the gift he left for the community. He was always, always had his heart in the right place and wanted to make a change and a difference.

CUOMO: Ron, just one of the sad aspects of this situation is that officers were targeted in Dallas, and Dallas, among big cities has done so much to come so far in terms of doing community policing, providing transparency and having use of force be a culture that evolves.

And yet, then this happens. How do you see the state of play in terms of the perception of policing versus what you believe to be the reality?

RON PINKSTON, PRESIDENT, DALLAS POLICE ASSOCIATION: I think it is so surprising that this event occurred in Dallas, because we've been doing an outstanding job, both the department and the association. We've been meeting with the community.

We've been meeting with the activists, and we've been having positive conversations, and that's what makes it so surprising it occurred here. How we go forward, I think in Dallas, we're going to continue to serve the citizens of Dallas and we are going to give them our best that we can in serving them.

We're going to continue to have conversations. We're going to still meet with the activists, and we're going to honor our fallen officers and do our job like they were honorably and respectfully.