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Ted Cruz Booed After Refusing to Endorse Trump; VP Nominee Overshadowed by Trump & Cruz; NYT: Trump Sets Conditions for Defending NATO Allies. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired July 21, 2016 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is a better vision for our future: Vote your conscience.

(BOOING)

[05:59:07] LAURA INGRAHAM, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: All you boys with bruised egos must honor your pledge.

GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This isn't just another Clinton scandal.

NEWT GINGRICH (R), FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Every American should be terrified at the prospect of a Hillary Clinton presidency.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who better to let the politicians know "You're fired" than Donald Trump?

ERIC TRUMP, SON OF DONALD TRUMP: Vote for the one candidate who does not need this job.

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R-IN), VICE-PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: That man is ready. This team is ready. Our party is ready.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY, with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: To our viewers in the United States and around the world, welcome to NEW DAY. We are live at the Republican convention in Cleveland. And another night and another wow. Ted Cruz booed and heckled after refusing to endorse Donald Trump at the convention last night. Instead, he told people to "vote their conscience."

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So this political drama overshadowing even the vice-presidential nominee, Mike Pence, and his speech. The Republican convention struggling to stay on message and to unite around the nominee, who will speak tonight.

So we have it all covered for you. Let's begin with senior political reporter, Manu Raju. He's live inside the convention hall.

Hi, Manu.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. This convention hall was the scene of a very tense moment last night when Ted Cruz refused to endorse Donald Trump. The Republican delegates were waiting for that endorsement, and when it did not come, things got ugly.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CRUZ: I want to congratulate Donald Trump on winning the nomination.

RAJU (voice-over): It was all downhill from there. Ted Cruz delivering a 25-minute speech that may follow him forever. Refusing to endorse Donald Trump at the Republican National Convention.

CRUZ: Stand and speak and vote your conscience. Vote for candidates up and down the ticket who you trust to defend our freedom and to be faithful to the Constitution.

RAJU: Cruz mentioning Trump's name just once during his primetime address, the crowd angrily interrupting the speech.

Then Trump suddenly appears in the stands, upstaging the GOP runner-up yet again. Trump later tweeting, "Wow, Ted Cruz got booed off the stage. Didn't honor the pledge. I saw his speech two hours early, but let him speak anyway. No big deal."

PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Donald Trump made the offer him to speak without any conditions. He thought Senator Cruz might have been a little bit more politically smart.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), HEAD OF TRUMP TRANSITION TEAM: I think it was awful, and quite frankly, I think it was selfish. And he signed a pledge. And it's his job to keep his word.

RAJU: Cruz later not backing down.

CRUZ: I laid out a very simple standard. We need a president who will defend and be faithful to the Constitution. I hope very much that is who the next president will be.

RAJU: Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich trying to reframe Cruz's comments as party unity.

GINGRICH: I think you misunderstood one paragraph that Ted Cruz, who is a superb orator, said. Ted Cruz said, you can vote your conscience for anyone who will uphold the Constitution. In this election, there is only one candidate who will uphold the Constitution. The only possible candidate this fall is the Trump/Pence Republican ticket.

RAJU: But angry delegates in the arena couldn't be subdued. Video posted on Twitter shows security escorting Cruz's wife Heidi out of the arena while being heckled by Trump supporters.

But two of Trump's former rivals showing they can put the bitter campaign season behind them.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The time for fighting each other is over. It's time to come together.

WALKER: A vote for anyone other than Donald Trump in November is a vote for Hillary Clinton.

RAJU: Trump also getting more support from one of his kids.

E. TRUMP: It is such an honor to be here for a man I love so, so, so, so much.

RAJU: The Republican nominee listening in the audience as his son, Eric, praised him.

E. TRUMP: My father has revitalized rundown neighborhoods, shaped skylines across the country, and turned dreams into reality his entire career. It's what he does. It's who he is.

RAJU: And after days of denying Melania Trump's speech was plagiarized...

CUOMO: I can't move on, because you keep lying about it. Did a portion of the language of that speech come from Michelle Obama's speech, yes or no?

MANAFORT: As far as we're concerned, there are similar words that were used.

RAJU: On Wednesday, a Trump aide offered to resign over the firestorm, admitting that it was a mistake to lift passages of Melania's speech from Michelle Obama's 2008 address.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I thought it was terrific the way she came forward and just said, "Look, it was a mistake that I made," and she thought it was very unfair to Melania.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAJU: Now, the blowback over Ted Cruz's speech was swift and fierce. Immediately afterwards, Ted Cruz tried to visit the billionaire donor Sheldon Adelson in his suite above the -- in the Q Center right above the convention proceedings, but Sheldon Adelson did not want to see Ted Cruz, actually rescinding his invitation for them to sit together.

In addition, a number of critics and supporters alike are warning that Cruz could face a backlash if he runs again for president. So clearly, the fallout still beginning -- Chris and Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: It sure sounds like it, Manu. Thank you very much for that.

Let's discuss it with our stellar panel. We have CNN political commentator and political anchor of Time Warner Cable News, Errol Louis; CNN political reporter Maeve Reston; and CNN political analyst and host of "The David Gregory Show" podcast, David Gregory. Great to have you here.

[06:05:07] So Maeve, I want to start with you. I mean, the fallout for Ted Cruz was probably worse than he was expecting. Heidi Cruz had to be escorted out of the arena by security, because people were sort of charging at her and yelling insults.

MAEVE RESTON, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yelling "Goldman Sachs," of course, which became a big attack against her and her career.

CAMEROTA: This is them -- this is them trying to get out. And I don't know if you can capture the aggression on the part of the crowd, but it was there.

RESTON: Yes, and I mean, clearly, Ted Cruz was not playing to the room here. And there were a lot of people in the room who were his delegates. You know, obviously Donald Trump's whips were whipping up the boos, as that -- that whole progression went on.

But I think this is just such a fascinating, bold move. And we really don't know how it's going to play out in the end for Ted Cruz, because he's gambling on Donald Trump going down in flames in November.

And you know, people will remember this moment. You know, we all know that Ted Cruz is going to run in 2020. And he'll be able to stand there and say, you know, "I stood up and took a principled stand and did what my supporters wanted me to do."

CUOMO: So what do you see as any potential upside for him, and what do you think the obvious upside might be for Trump? Because we saw what happened on that floor last night.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. Look, I've never seen anything like this. I mean, this was stunning. These conventions are all highly-scripted affairs. There was the nominee emerging into the convention hall, trying to steal Cruz's thunder, because the speech is going south. His chief rival not endorsing him, snubbing him in primetime on television amid the boos. And there is Trump coming in.

This is a picture of disunity in the Republican Party. This is not what Donald Trump wanted. He wanted the party to come together. He didn't get that from Ted Cruz.

Now, to Trump's credit, he tweeted out later, "Look, I reviewed the remarks, and, you know, I said, 'Go ahead, say them anyway'." And maybe there's an opportunity for Trump to try to work with this somehow and say, "Yes, there's a dissent in the party, but we're going to move forward."

CAMEROTA: Let me read this tweet for a second, because I find it mixed message. "Wow. Ted Cruz got booed off the stage, didn't honor the pledge," exclamation point, Errol. "I saw the speech two hours early, but let him speak anyway. No big deal." So Errol, do you believe that he read the speech first?

LOUIS: You know, it didn't take long to look at the speech. I think we all got it just as the speech was starting. I went through it in about three minutes. And, you know, I was looking for the word "endorse," and I didn't see it, so I alerted my producer, "He's not going to endorse. There's something going on here."

So yes, I believe he knew the gist of it. I mean, there was some reporting around it, as well. It was clear that he was going to have the stage, but he wasn't going to endorse.

Now, I and probably a lot of other people thought that somewhere in there he'd slip in a phrase like "The reason we all endorse Donald Trump is" -- and you know, sort of a slight endorsement somewhere along the line, or just spontaneously come out and say it, because I thought it was pretty clear the crowd was going to react if it didn't happen.

There were already -- you know, that faction fight on Monday, that's already, you know, ancient history. The Texas delegation was a big part of it. Those guys with all the Stetson hats on, they all got up, and they were calling for a change and a delay in the actual calling of the roll. So you know, we knew that there was some dissension here.

Why Donald Trump chose to sort of play it out this way, because there are some real differences, and it's not the end of the world. You know, I mean, there's a reason that you have the convention. You convene people to try and work out those differences.

So it's not crazy to let a speech happen or to let something happen with having your opponent, you know, voice the opinion of a certain faction of the party. But to let it get out of control in that way, that's the thing I think that divides them.

CUOMO: But didn't you think -- go ahead. Go ahead, Maeve.

RESTON: You know, the speech was budgeted to be 12 minutes, and he went on for more than 20 minutes. So clearly, you know, not everything that he said was in the text that Donald Trump and his people would have seen.

And the other point is that, you know, though Cruz very clearly did not promise an endorsement, and they had a phone call on Monday where he made that clear, there could have been a very much messier situation on Monday, had his name been put into nomination...

CUOMO: Sure.

RESTON: ... if Trump had not offered the invitation for him to come to speak. You know, and some of Trump's advisers have pointed out that Cruz would have found -- had a right to speak anyway at the convention.

CUOMO: Well, look, Cruz's people thought about whether or not to put the name in, see what happens. They decided they didn't want to take a second "L," which was certainly going to come their way.

And I think this was good for Trump. This was the first time on the convention floor we saw this passion harnessed on the floor, where it wasn't directed at Hillary Clinton. This was the first time where they were like, "We're really angry about something, and it's Hillary Clinton. We're really angry about you, Ted Cruz. This is our guy, Donald Trump." And I think that helps him.

GREGORY: I disagree a little bit in this way. There is a conservative movement that is conflicted and that is -- has a lot of die-hard opposition to Donald Trump. You see it.

[06:10:07] You walk around, as I've walked around in the past few days, running into Republican elected officials who are just hanging their head, really despairing about the future of the party and what's going to happen in November.

This is, for many Republicans, a time of choosing. And I think Ted Cruz is going to be able to answer that question. Where were you when Trump happened? He's going to say, "I'll tell you where I was. I stuck to my principles, and I didn't endorse him."

Let's not forget that Trump trashed his wife, trashed his father in the course of the primary. And Trump was not going to endorse. So that disunity. And in fact, Chris, despite that, you were right about what happened on the floor. The only time this convention hall has really come together, no less than when somebody has called for the imprisonment of Hillary Clinton. That's what passes as party unity right now. If you're the Trump campaign, you look at this and you look forward, and you say, "Have we achieved what we came for? Really bringing this team together to give us our best foot forward in November." And I don't know that they've gotten it.

CAMEROTA: The answer, I think, would be no thus far. I mean, certainly if last night is any example. So what does that mean going forward, Maeve, for the electorate and for the actual election?

RESTON: It's been fascinating watching this convention, because usually, this is a time, a reset time, where you move beyond the Republican primary voter and start to speak to that broader audience of voters. And that's what's going to be really interesting listening to Donald Trump tonight.

I don't think that we've heard that at this convention. There haven't been, you know, a lot of bridges to the women who are unsure about his temperament and people who, you know, who were undecided. It's been very, you know, Benghazi, heavily focused on the kind of arguments that work with -- you know, with the FOX News crowd. And so that's a lost opportunity there.

CUOMO: But I think that it could easily branch out. This is muscular resistance, Errol. That's what we're seeing on this floor. People are angry. They're fed up. And that emotion has been discounted to everyone's disadvantage who made that mistake. And I don't know what the Democrats have to match that energy.

LOUIS: Well, I mean, we'll find out in a few days in Philadelphia. But I mean, look, when they get the anger up to the level that it threatens to go off the rails, I sense a repeat of a pattern that usually works to Hillary Clinton's advantage, which is to say they're crazy; they're over the top.

You know, it's one thing to say you don't like the foreign policy decisions that I've made. It's one thing to say that you don't like the alliances that I've made or how I've done trade deals or anything like that. And it's quite another thing to say she belongs in prison. And to say it in an angry, sort of mob chant. Right?

GREGORY: Almost a gladiator kind of way.

LOUIS: Yes. So you know, and it puts her back in her sweet spot where she can say, "Hey, you may not like me, and I know I'm not perfect, but look at that craziness. And that's not something we can afford to have in the White House."

CAMEROTA: Panel, thank you. Great to have you here.

CUOMO: All right. So Ted Cruz did his thing last night and certainly wound up taking away some of the energy, which was supposed to be the coming out party for the vice-presidential nominee. This was his introduction to America. The governor of Indiana, Mike Pence, he's supposed to be the headline, and he is in a way.

But there wound up being contradictions. We're going to show you what Mike Pence said, especially about foreign policy, and then play this contradiction that came from his running mate, Donald Trump, at almost the exact same time.

CNN's Phil Mattingly live inside the convention hall with more on this early conflict between brothers.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Chris. Look, last night was supposed to be the night for Mike Pence. An opportunity for the campaign to extend a hand to wary conservatives, an introduction of an Indiana governor that is supposed to be by Donald Trump's side throughout the next four months.

Instead, Pence wasn't just overshadowed by Ted Cruz. He was overshadowed by his own running mate.

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MATTINGLY (voice-over): Donald Trump undermining his running mate, Mike Pence, on the biggest night of his career. Pence detailing his approach to foreign policy to an enthusiastic audience at the Republican National Convention.

PENCE: We cannot have four more years apologizing to our enemies and abandoning our friends. Donald Trump will rebuild our military and stand with our allies.

MATTINGLY: But that's not what Donald Trump is saying in a new interview. "The New York Times" reporting that Trump is questioning whether he would automatically defend NATO members.

When specifically asked about Russia's aggression towards the Baltic states, Trump says he would only come to their aid if they, quote, "have fulfilled their obligations to us."

This contradiction the second major policy discrepancy on display this week between the Republican nominee and his newly-minted running mate.

TRUMP: That was a war that we shouldn't have been in because Iraq did not knock down -- excuse me...

LESLIE STAHL, "60 Minutes": Your running mate voted for it.

TRUMP: Iraq did not knock down -- I don't care.

MATTINGLY: Despite these differences, the Indiana governor and former congressman making the case for a Trump presidency last night.

PENCE: Donald Trump gets it. He's the genuine article. He's a doer in a game usually reserved for talkers.

MATTINGLY: Declaring that the GOP ticket is an agent of change.

PENCE: Hillary Clinton wants a better title, and I would, too, if I was already America's secretary of the status quo.

MATTINGLY: A star turn for Midwestern Mike, a staunch social conservative Tea Party supporter and devout evangelical who actually endorsed Ted Cruz before Indiana's primary.

Pence catapulting onto the national stage last year after signing a religious freedom law, criticized for discriminating against gays and lesbians.

PENCE: This isn't about disputes between individuals. It's about government overreach, and I'm proud that Indiana stepped forward.

MATTINGLY: Trump applauding Pence's speech on Twitter. The GOP ticket still getting to know each other. Trump awkwardly air kissing his running mate after his big speech. Their unity not quite the photo op moment of past Republican tickets.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Now, guys, it should be noted inside the arena, the speech was very well-received. It was an upbeat argument, the kind Trump advisers say you're going to hear repeatedly from Mike Pence on the campaign trail going forward.

Again, trying to fill out that ticket. Donald Trump on one side, kind of a buttoned-up conservative on the other. But there's no question about it, the headline for the Trump campaign, the one they wanted, was the introduction of Mike Pence, this great running mate. That's not the one they got. And it's not just because of Ted Cruz; it's because of Donald Trump himself -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: We will be talking about that all morning. Phil, thank you for the reporting.

Well, Donald Trump talking foreign policy, but Trump's plan contradicts his vice president's vision. So up next, the Trump interview that's making waves.

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[06:21:05] CUOMO: It was a big night, not just for politics, but also policy. Donald Trump making news before stepping on the stage tonight. This is going to be his big moment politically in terms of the speech.

But he gave this "New York Times" interview, and in it he gave qualified conditions for supporting NATO allies, and he also gave a message that's very different than the one laid out by his VP in the speech last night. So let's discuss.

Alice Stewart, CNN political commentator and former communications director for Ted Cruz. Welcome to the team.

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Great to be here.

CUOMO: We have CNN political commentator Corey Lewandowski, of course, the former Trump campaign manager, who is still receiving severance from the Trump campaign, yet never buys me lunch. And is the chair of the New Hampshire delegation at the Republican convention. And also Christine Quinn, Hillary Clinton supporter, vice chair of the New York Democratic Party. Great to have all of you here.

CHRISTINE QUINN, VICE CHAIR, NEW YORK DEMOCRATIC PARTY: Thank you.

CUOMO: Let's talk policy, friends. Corey, let me come to the man in the middle. Trump gives this interview. Let's put up this excerpt from "The New York Times." OK? Here's what's got the eyebrows up.

It is about if Russia attacks, right. OK? That's always been about the formation of what NATO is meant to do. And he says, "If Russia were to attack them," meaning the NATO allies, "he would decide whether to come to their aid only after reviewing whether those nations have lived up to their commitments to us," to the United States, their obligations. "He added, 'If they do, then the answer is yes'."

Does he understand that NATO is Europe? That it's not just Benelux countries or some sort of short pockets? And that you're sending a message that is, "I don't know, Europe, if it goes south, maybe we're there or maybe we're not." What is he doing?

LEWANDOWSKI: Once again, what Mr. Trump is doing is questioning the conventional wisdom of the way our country has operated over the last 30 years. And it's something that no one else has been willing to do. And he said this time and time again.

Let's review every single policy that we have had in place for a long time, and if he is elected president of the United States and serves as the commander in chief of our services, before we make a decision and we commit our troops and we commit our resources, we're going to make sure that, first and foremost, the interests of the American people are put forth. And this is a very different mindset. What has happened for the last 30 years in Washington is we've lived

and abided by these treaties that had been written many years ago that don't actually benefit the United States anymore and have blanketly said we're going to go and we're going to support NATO or we're going to go and do this or we're going to go and do that."

Those days are gone. Fundamental and wholesale change will come to Washington, D.C., when Donald Trump is elected president.

CAMEROTA: Christine.

QUINN: Look, just last week or in the "60 Minutes" interview, Donald Trump said, "We're going to have great allies. This is going to be about having terrific relationships with our allies."

And then here he takes NATO and throws it under the bus.

What is very clear in Donald Trump's statement, in my opinion, are two things. One, it's all about a deal. If you scratch my back, I'll scratch your back. If NATO's been good to me, I'll be good to them.

CAMEROTA: He's a negotiator. I mean, that's what people think is his strength.

QUINN: But NATO -- the United States' relationship with NATO is fundamental to keeping peace in the world. He may or may not be able to negotiate good business deals, but that's not the same thing as trying to keep the world as peaceful as it can be.

He sent a message not long after he stood on that golf course and said this break up, you know, the Brexit vote was good for him, because more people would come to his golf course and he would make money. Following that, he sent a message to Europe, we don't have your back anymore.

What happens then if, God forbid, he is president, and he calls some of the NATO countries and asks for help. And they say, "Well, let's see how good you've been to us." It shows a fundamental lack of appreciation of the role of the United States as the leader of the world and a fundamental misunderstanding about international affairs. And it is dangerous to have somebody running for president who has so little knowledge and who will flip and flop and contradict himself.

CAMEROTA: Where do you fall, Alice?

STEWART: I think -- I agree in terms of our relationship with NATO is critical. But to Corey's point, we're in different times than we were when NATO was formed and these alliances were being built. And we -- this is important to address these relationships.

Do we need to make changes? And to not assess the situation, see if changes need to be made, I think that would be a huge mistake. In terms of the Brexit, he correctly called the concerns of the people in Britain in terms of many of the problems. Certainly economics but also in terms of immigration. He called them. Obama and Clinton misread that situation and didn't understand it. At the end of the day, I would certainly take Donald Trump's views on

radical Islamic terrorism over Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama sticking their head in the sand and refusing to call it what it is.

CUOMO: But the question is, who's going to fight with you? Here -- the danger is apparently obvious here. There's a reason Mike Pence, Corey, said we're going to be good to our allies. We're not doing that right now.

If the support is too qualified now, what do you think happens when you say to the only real friend you have? Because again, NATO is 28 countries. It's all of Europe. OK? So with what's going on right now in the Ukraine, we're seeing it. This isn't theoretical.

Putin, who your guy Trump has called strong, and has talked about favorably, went into Ukraine, occupies half the country right now. It's happening right now. NATO is the wall against it. That's all there is.

LEWANDOWSKI: What he's saying, it's fundamental. Put Americans first. This is a very simple message. The question is, is it right for the United States to go and fight somewhere else when we don't have our own interests in mind, and we can no longer be the policemen of the world if no one is going to pay for that tab.

We have gotten ourselves into wars. We've spent trillions of dollars, thousands of Americans lives have been lost. And for what? For nothing. And what Donald Trump said he was against the Iraq war. The Brexit vote is a great example of him calling.

QUINN: And before he was for staying in Iraq.

LEWANDOWSKI: Well, Hillary voted for it. There's no question about that.

QUINN: As did Mike Pence.

LEWANDOWSKI: Here's the other thing. Here's the other thing. If you remember, when Brexit happened, calamity. The world economy is going to fall. It's going to be all over. We're three weeks later, and guess what? The stock market is at its highest point that's been in -- you know, in the history.

CAMEROTA: Three years later something bad might happen.

LEWANDOWSKI: We're three weeks later from where we were. Right? And now all of a sudden -- if you remember the chaos when Brexit voted, oh, the economy, it's all over.

CUOMO: Brexit is about money. It's not about war.

LEWANDOWSKI: I understand that. But his point was right then, and his point is right now. America first, U.S. first. And if we're going to engage our military and we're going to engage our people to go and support somebody else, we'd better have our own interests in mind first. And I believe Donald Trump does that. CAMEROTA: Hold on. Hold on, Christine, one second. Because we have

to tee up the big issue from yesterday, and I want you to do it, about where we are with the plagiarism and Melania.

CUOMO: Distancing yourself from me. Nice. Camerota, you are wearing the right color today, my friend.

All right. So we all know what happened here. It started a couple of days ago. Melania Trump gave a good speech. She did a good job. She was impressive. Some of the language in the speech came from Michelle Obama's speech. There's just no question about that. There never was a question about it. It's not similar. It's not common language. It is her language. It happened. It's not a big deal.

The campaign made it a big deal, OK? The first day they came out and said, didn't happen. All right? We know what that is. That's called lying. Happens in politics all the time.

CAMEROTA: They don't always call it that, but it happens.

CUOMO: Then they doubled down on it. Here was the exchange with Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign chairman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: You make it impossible to move on when you won't acknowledge what we know to be true. That's all. And I don't know why you're blaming us for that. That just doesn't seem very fair.

MANAFORT: You spent seven minutes talking about something that's not relevant to anybody but you and the media. But not to the American people. That's why.

CUOMO: The truth isn't relevant to anybody but us?

MANAFORT: You keep talking about it. The trust is, I'm telling you the truth.

CUOMO: All right.

MANAFORT: I'm not a liar, contrary to what you just said.

CUOMO: No, no, no. I'm not calling you a liar. I'm talking about this one specific thing.

MANAFORT: You did call me a liar.

CUOMO: I'm not making a character assessment. That's not my place. I'm saying that you're lying about this, the words not having come from Michelle Obama's speech, because we both know they did. But let's leave that issue where it is. Both of us have been very clear about it.

MANAFORT: That's a good idea.

CUOMO: People can decide. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Now, that's Paul Manafort. I've known Paul Manafort a long time. He's a very effective guy. This certainly was not about character assassination on him.

But Corey, I don't know what else to call it. I know that saying liar, lying is a loaded word in politics. But it shouldn't be. If you have intent to deceive, OK, about something, that's lying.

That statement came out, OK, from the writer of this, who said, "Melania Trump gave me language from Michelle Obama's speech. I integrated the language. I didn't check the speech. I didn't do -- whatever. I made a mistake." OK.

That means it happened. There is zero chance that -- maybe you probably even know it happened. But Manafort knew, the team --