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Trump to Speak at Convention Tonight; Gary Johnson Interview; Trump on NATO. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired July 21, 2016 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] DAVID GREGORY, HOST, "THE DAVID GREGORY" PODCAST: Make the argument that, yes, he's different, yes, there are a lot of downsides to him that we see in the polls, and he's risky in the eyes of a lot of people, but that it's worth the risk because the alternative in Hillary Clinton is so bad and because the conditions are so bad in the country. He's got to figure out a way to create a path toward addition to get himself beyond his base.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: So he's got to balance how to impress the faithful with how to grow the base.

So what do you need to hear, Matt Lewis, as a member of that faithful and then what do you think the bar will be overall for him.

MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think what he needs to do, and for me and for everybody, if I was advising him, I would say, he's got part of the equation down really well, which is fear mongering, right? And there are things out there to be afraid of. Let's be honest. And emotion drives people to vote. And I think, mission accomplished. Donald Trump can scare people. He can scare them with Hillary Clinton. He can scare them with a dangerous world.

What he needs to do is to talk about the optimistic side. And you can do the 1968 Richard Nixon law and order thing and also provide some hope, some change, which he's a change agent, and optimism. People want to like him. People want to believe in something. And I would just say this. Make America great again is inherently an optimistic message. He needs to remind us of that.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And what's the style going to be? We've heard a couple of things. One - Congressman Collins said it's going to be 45 minutes long, he said. Then one of our guests said, no, under 30. You know he can use a prompter, but he can also just rift and sort of take the energy of the crowd. Which one - I mean he's most effective at the latter one. Is that what he's going to do?

GREGORY: You know, it's just so hard to predict with him, frankly.

CUOMO: Would you like to make a bet of what happens tonight?

CAMEROTA: No, I keep losing these.

GREGORY: He won the bet and you have not really acknowledged it.

CAMEROTA: I know, because I'm in a weakened state at 5:00 a.m. when he makes these bets.

CUOMO: It ain't 5:00 now. Would you like to make a bet?

CAMEROTA: Yes, OK. OK. I say - I'm going to say prompter.

CUOMO: I'm going to say goes off prompter for large swaths of time.

CAMEROTA: Right. (INAUDIBLE). I agree. I agree.

GREGORY: But here's the thing. I do think that Trump, he's got to show some discipline. You know, it's - we've been talking about a lot this week. There's polling. Sixty percent don't think he's qualified for the job. He's got to help people at home in these swing states, say to themselves, yes, I can see him in the job.

LEWIS: Yes.

GREGORY: He's got to get over that threshold to be a plausible commander in chief. On the other side, Hillary Clinton, for all her flaws, what she's hammering home, hammering home, is that he's too risky. And we see that. We see that in the polling, that people feel about (INAUDIBLE).

LEWIS: And the convention can be seen as a microcosm of that. If Donald Trump has a great night tonight, all is forgotten, all is forgiven, and it looks like a serious, competent campaign which might end up being a serious, competent president. If this continues to be a train wreck, that's a microcosm for a big message.

CUOMO: Train wreck, do you think that's too strong a term?

LEWIS: No.

CUOMO: Why?

LEWIS: It could - well, I think it's going to come down to tonight. If tonight goes like last night, the whole narrative is set that this is a disaster, it's a mess. But if Trump delivers tonight, all is forgotten.

GREGORY: I mean last night was a disaster. I mean I've never seen anything like that.

CUOMO: Why? Why was it a disaster?

GREGORY: Because the guy's main - when the goal - the number one goal is unite the party, that's why you have a convention. And you have - you have total control over your convention.

CUOMO: Right.

GREGORY: Your chief rival snubs you. You have Governor Christie

LEWIS: Right, but he's not -

CUOMO: But he got booed and they were cheering for Trump. GREGORY: I get it, but it's just disarray. Disarray.

LEWIS: But I think that's the Melania Trump thing a couple of days ago. So it's a narrative, it's a trend -

GREGORY: Right.

LEWIS: Which could end tonight if Donald Trump delivers.

GREGORY: Right. And that's the thing. The most important part of this convention, 80 percent of the import (ph) happens tonight. You know, this is Donald Trump. He is the most important part of his campaign, ever more true, because there's such a cult of personality around him. But, yes, I mean, I think it's - I think it's been a bad - it's been a bad couple of days because we know there's a lack of unity within the party. I think there were notes of grace last night, as you've pointed out, on the part of Donald Trump, knowing that he wasn't going to get endorsed. But that's just not the imaging that you want. It's just not the imaging.

CAMEROTA: Matt, how has everything that's happened here in Cleveland this week color what will happen in Philly starting Monday?

LEWIS: Well, I think, again, we'll see how it goes tonight, but I think what Hillary wants to do is a complete contrast. If this is confused, if this is a mess, if this is chaotic, they want their convention to go off without a hitch, to be professional, to be credible, to be competent, and that will send a message that Hillary Clinton will be the serious, you know, commander in chief who can keep us safe and not have all these scandals and messes.

CUOMO: Do you think that's a given, by the way, or do you think that what they are dealing with in terms of who they are as a party on the Democratic side with the Sanders influence, creates some doubt what happens there as well?

GREGORY: Look, not all things are equal. She is ahead. We'll see how well Trump can do tonight. Maybe he can get some bounce out of this convention despite some discord within the party. The advantage that she's got is that she's got a president with high marks, a former president with high marks, a first lady with high marks. They're all there behind her. You're going to have a much happier, more unified Democratic Party. There's just no question about that.

Having said that, she, the candidate, has tremendous negatives. And what has been exposed here in the part of the Republican Party that's unified is how much they dislike Hillary Clinton, and will vote based on that. And it's a huge hurdle for her to overcome.

[08:35:07] LEWIS: It's also a complete - a complete contrast from what we think we know about the Republican Party historically and the Democratic Party. Normally it's the Republican Party who sort of falls in line.

GREGORY: Right. LEWIS: They - they run off the script. You know, they run with the scripted. The Democrats are chaotic. They've got, you know, going back to like the 1960s, completely different this time.

CAMEROTA: Matt, David, thank you. We'll be watching tonight, of course.

Many speakers at the convention say this election is between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. But Gary Johnson has something to say about that. In fact, he's right here in the CNN Grill talking about that right now with two of our wonderful interns. The libertarian candidate for president joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: So, who do you think should be president, Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. That's your - owe, who was that? Governor Gary Johnson is here, the libertarian candidate for president.

GARY JOHNSON, LIBERTARIAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Hah, hah, that's good. That's good. That's good.

CUOMO: So, what do you do?

JOHNSON: Thirteen percent in the polls.

CUOMO: Thirteen percent in the polls.

JOHNSON: Oh, my gosh, it looks - looks like - looks like we're going to get in the presidential debate. So -

[08:40:03] CUOMO: The threshold's 15.

JOHNSON: Fifteen.

CUOMO: Do you think you can make it?

JOHNSON: I do. Keeping in mind that just in the last six weeks the 13 really is a double from where it was six weeks ago. So, momentum.

CUOMO: Does Gary Johnson feel that what's going on at the RNC is good for him?

JOHNSON: Well, I think that Donald Trump alienates more than half of Republicans. And being here at the convention, I'm trying to keep a really low profile, and very respectful of Donald Trump and the fact that he got the nomination.

CUOMO: You're saying that coming on NEW DAY helps you keep a low profile? Is that what you're trying to say?

JOHNSON: No, I'm not saying that at all, but it's not being in the convention and - and not wanting to throw rocks here at all.

CUOMO: Is anybody coming up to you here on the street and saying, hey, you may get my vote? JOHNSON: Like 1,000 people. Amazing. And not one single jab.

CUOMO: Really?

JOHNSON: You would think I'd get at least a poke, wouldn't you? Just at least one poke. But not one.

CUOMO: Nobody has said to you, why are you trying to hurt the party?

JOHNSON: Exactly. Exactly. Amazing. Really, unbelievable. I - I - you would have - you would have figured a couple of, hey, what are you doing?

CUOMO: Absolutely. I mean I'm certainly - I'm not doing as well. That's for sure, let me tell you.

So, what do you think about the big moments that have transpired? Mike Pence last night, the VP nominee, how do you think he comported himself?

JOHNSON: Well, we really have differences of opinion. I hope to take those differences of opinion to the presidential debates, that would be the presidential and the vice presidential debates. I'd love to see Bill Weld in that mix with whomever Hillary chooses.

CUOMO: Do you think he is a worthy choice for the party?

JOHNSON: Well, I think he's - I think he's indicative of where the party is right now and, you know, there's some intolerance there. His issues with - with denying AIDS fund - or saying, look, let's cutback AIDS funding and let's convert that to conversion therapy for young gay people? Chris, that's, in my opinion, that's misplaced, in my opinion. He's leaning into the drug war when everybody else is recognizing that this has failed, that we should be looking at reduced sentences for victimless non-violent crimes.

CUOMO: What did you make of the Ted Cruz situation? Does it show a division in the party that creates opportunity for you?

JOHNSON: Well, he did say to vote for Gary Johnson, didn't he, and that was, vote your conscience.

CUOMO: Newt Gingrich says that that meant you have to vote for Donald Trump, because he's the only candidate in the race who will uphold the Constitution.

JOHNSON: Well, I certainly would uphold the Constitution. We are - we are a country governed by laws and at the heart of those laws are the Constitution.

CUOMO: The other big event that happened -

JOHNSON: And - and Donald Trump, gosh, wasn't he saying that he's going to look at making it easier to sue the media?

CUOMO: Yes. JOHNSON: First Amendment?

CUOMO: Yes, he said he wanted to look at it.

JOHNSON: So, what's that? First Amendment? That's in the Constitution of the United States?

CUOMO: Right.

JOHNSON: Yes.

CUOMO: He said he wanted to look at it. I don't know how he's feeling about that this week. He had a situation where the campaign had to handle what happened with Melania's speech. You say leave Melania alone. She's not the focus of the campaign. She gave a good speech. Leave it alone. But you don't feel so hands off about how they handled it, why?

JOHNSON: Well, I mean, Donald Trump is looking to get elected president of the United States. I always maintain that, look, you should acknowledge - we all make mistakes. We all make mistakes. It's how we deal with the mistakes that ultimately determine success or failure. An immediate acknowledgement of exactly what happened and move forward. And I think people respect that. I think people understand that. But I don't - I don't - I don't know if the story really jives with what happened, and I'll leave that to others. But Melania - the pressure that spouses come under, you know, hey, I've got to deliver a two and a half minute speech. It sounds simple to somebody who's been doing it all the time. But spouses, they haven't been involved in this at all. They've never bought into it in any way -

CUOMO: And many don't want to.

JOHNSON: And don't want to. And rightfully so. And so she's just - oh, my gosh, what am I going to do. So she looks up what Michelle Obama - like I say, I don't - I don't know ultimately what happened, but it would have been - nothing would have happened with this if there had just been a clear admission of everything that happened, how it happened, and some sorrys and move on.

CUOMO: Will you also go to Philadelphia?

JOHNSON: You know, I didn't want to come here. The notion being, to be respectful. So - but - but the world media is here, and talking earlier about polling, this interview right here, I'm sure, is going to propel me over 15 percent. So, thank you very much.

CUOMO: We are here to aid the process.

JOHNSON: But the world media is here. And so there's a really big opportunity. And there were a lot of invitations to come. And - and be able to given interviews. I think yesterday, counting smartphones in your face, I think I probably gave in excess of 70 interviews yesterday.

CUOMO: So then it makes sense to go to Philadelphia.

[08:45:01] JOHNSON: Well, perhaps.

CUOMO: Well, if we see you there, cheese steak on you.

JOHNSON: Well, all right, cheese steak.

CUOMO: Governor Johnson, thank you very much for being with us. Appreciate it.

JOHNSON: All right, Chris, thank you.

CUOMO: All right, so, here's a question for you. What should the United States do if one of its NATO allies is attacked? That is the foundation, the fundamental understanding of NATO. New comments from the man on your screen, Donald Trump, setting off a firestorm for the campaign. What did he say, and how is the world viewing it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Donald Trump is preparing for the biggest speech of his life tonight, but the Republican nominee raising eyebrows this morning with comments that he made in a "New York Times" interview where he set conditions for defending our allies in NATO.

So let's discuss how the rest of the world is viewing all of this. We want to bring in Christiane Amanpour, CNN's chief international correspondent. She's covering the convention for CNN International. And Nigel Farage, he's a member of the European parliament who pushed for Britain's exit from the European Union.

Great to see both of you here this morning. We have so much to talk about.

[08:50:00] Christiane, the Trump doctrine, as he outlined in this "New York Times" speech, seems to be there are conditions now he would put for NATO and for whether or not the U.S. is going to defend the NATO allies. Basically whether or not they'd pay

up and carry their fair share.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, basically in that 45 minute interview, he upturned decades and generations of American, particularly Republican, foreign policy. He went into the isolationism mode. He talked about trade protection, things that people, like he says his mentors are Henry Kissinger and James Baker have said must not happen. But the most, most frightening thing was what he said about NATO. And he used the NATO alliance almost as a transactional business alliance, saying, if you don't up, you x number of NATO members, then we're not going to come to your support. So that is a complete break with American policy because NATO is an American-led alliance, a security alliance. The Trans-Atlantic Security Alliance.

It was never about a marriage of equals. America is the biggest, most powerful economy and military in the world. And to think that the Baltics or even, you know, Czechoslovakia, or whatever could pay up that kind of money for protection is simply, you know, never was in the cards. Why does America want NATO to exist? Because, since World War II, it has stopped a war in Europe. Why does America want those alliances in - in Asia, Japan, Korea, to stop any further war on that continent. So this is in America's interest, in the world's interest, and it's not about a business deal.

CUOMO: When you say that, money for protection, you know, it sounds like, you know, a street deal.

Mr. Farage, what is your take on the situation?

NIGEL FARAGE, HELPED LEAD BRITAIN REFERENDUM TO EXIT EU: I think the American military, over the last few years, have been pretty unhappy with their NATO allies. You've just cutting, cutting, cutting the defense spending. I'm pleased to say there's been a change around in the U.K. We've now committed to spending 2 percent, which is (INAUDIBLE) to be a reasonable number.

So, I mean, the problem with NATO is this. You know, you're absolutely right, it was - it was a wonderful vehicle to keep peace in Europe for 60, 70 years, but NATO now doesn't need to redefine itself. What's it for? You know, we don't have the Warsaw pact. So I'm pro-NATO. I'm pro-cooperation. But it's not a bad things if we reassess what it's for.

CUOMO: Well, we ask what it's for. What about what Russia is doing right now in Ukraine? Isn't that what it's for?

AMANPOUR: But -

FARAGE: Well, hang on. Hang on. NATO and the European Union openly said they wanted the Ukraine to join their alliance. Putin saw that as a direct threat. So in terms of strategy, in terms of enlargement, NATO needs to sit down and reexamine what it's for.

AMANPOUR: If I might be so bold, Nigel Farage is espousing a certain policy that Donald Trump agrees with as well, which is that it's - I do believe that you believe that there are spheres of interests that Russia should have its way in its traditional sphere of interest, and that certainly Donald Trump views leaders like President Putin, even President Erdogan in Turkey, as strong and doing their thing and we should not interfere in what they do, right? So it's this sort of authoritarian, autocratic bent towards letting other countries do what they think is best in their interest, and America should stay out of it while America, quote-unquote, cleans up its own house.

America is the leader of the free world. The leader of the free world, which wants to bring democracy, which wants to aid freedom, obviously, which wants to aid, you know, morality and values, all the kinds of things that we've grown-up with and we believe are the right way. America first cannot be America first if America is absent. And that, I think, is the takeaway from this.

FARAGE: No, that's fine, but let's be honest, Ukraine is a democracy. It's somewhat corrupt. It is a democracy. And the elected leader of the Ukraine was overthrown in a coup by people who wanted the Ukraine to move westwards and join NATO and join the E.U. And all I'm saying is that we should not be - I'm not a Putin -

AMANPOUR: But, Nigel -

FARAGE: I'm not a Putin fan, but I don't think we should be encroaching on his space. That does not make sense.

AMANPOUR: Nigel -- Nigel, listen, Russia signed a deal with Britain, France, and those countries to make sure that Ukraine had territory integrity in order for Ukraine to voluntarily give up its nuclear weapon. That was in Russia's interest. It was in the west's interest.

FARAGE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And Russia violated that by violating for the first time since World War II an international border in Europe. This is the kind of thing. Obviously, NATO is not going to war there, Nigel. We know that. We know that.

FARAGE: Well, but why - why provoke? Why provoke? It's not necessary.

AMANPOUR: Well, you know, you can think that, you can think that, but that's the Putin life.

FARAGE: I do. I do genuinely.

CUOMO: But, wait a minute, help us understand something for a second.

AMANPOUR: Because -

CUOMO: Where is the provocation on behalf of NATO of interceding in a sovereign Ukraine being invaded by Russia?

FARAGE: Look, the invasion took -

AMANPOUR: (INAUDIBLE).

FARAGE: Took place after the overthrow of a democratically -

AMANPOUR: There's no invasion.

FARAGE: Elected leader. All I'm saying is, is NATO a defensive organization or is it an expansionist organization. That does need to be reported.

AMANPOUR: OK, then let's - let's pick that apart. NATO is a defensive and, if necessary, you know, to an attack on one is an attack on all.

[08:55:02] CUOMO: Article 51.

AMANPOUR: So it - Article 5 of NATO.

FARAGE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: So NATO is created. And let's be very clear, because this is important for American foreign policy going forward. That this is the American-led security guarantee for all of Europe. And anything that messes with that and treats that as a purely dollars and cents transactional deal, which it was never (INAUDIBLE). And, you're right, some countries have started to come forth with paying up the 2 percent of their GDP.

FARAGE: Yes, which is right.

AMANPOUR: But to break up NATO is - and to say we're not coming to our allies' defense, unless they pay us the money, is a complete break. And it retrenches America into a less safe America. So America is going to retrench, what, behind fortress Atlantic and watch the reset of the world go to hell? It's not possible for American security.

FARAGE: No, I -

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about - let's talk about the bigger picture here, at least in Cleveland. We're interested in hearing your perspective as someone not American.

FARAGE: No.

CAMEROTA: What you think of Donald Trump, what you think of the reaction to him here in Cleveland?

FARAGE: Well, clearly, he hasn't just taken on the establishment in Washington. He's taken on the establishment within the Republican Party. So, I mean, I (INAUDIBLE) last night, I imagine this would be very stage managed, that I - see something that was very slick, where everyone knew what was going to happen, then we got the Ted Cruz speech. So it's - it's exciting to watch it. But, my goodness, me. If he wins in November, then the Republican Party will have to accept that he's changed fundamentally. As it is, the party itself has got real problems.

CUOMO: Why?

FARAGE: Because it's split. It's split over Trump. It's split over some of the areas of policy that he's talking about, but in particular the way he's talking about them.

CAMEROTA: Christiane, last word.

AMANPOUR: Well, you know, it's - it's - it is very, very interesting. Nigel Farage was the candidate, was the politician who basically spurred Britain to leave the E.U. This was what he - and he told me - didn't you tell the European parliament, I told you 17 years ago when I first came here -

FARAGE: I did.

AMANPOUR: That I was going to do that. Now you can stop laughing at me. OK, all well and good, but what's the plan? What's the post Brexit plan? You must admit, Nigel, you must have been horrified when the legions of Brexit politicians, whether it Michael Go (ph), Boris Johnson and the others just left the stage. Where was the blueprint? Where's the plan? And people are asking now.

FARAGE: Well, Boris Johnson - Boris Johnson is now the foreign secretary.

AMANPOUR: That's correct. He's been brought in by the remainder (ph).

FARAGE: Liam Fox - Liam Fox, who was the most pro-American MP of Westminster, he's now in charge of negotiating new trade deals with you guys. We've left the backward European Union. We've rejoined the big world. It's looking good.

CAMEROTA: Do you see parallels with Donald Trump and that?

AMANPOUR: Well, I think - I think Donald Trump does and I think the Brexitiers (ph) do. If you look at Boris - if you look at what's been written in the press -

CUOMO: All though - although Mr. Farage said that some of what Trump says makes him wince. What is that that brings in wince on?

AMANPOUR: Does it?

FARAGE: There are cultural differences. You know, we may speak the same language, but the political cultures between the Republican Party and (INAUDIBLE) all the conservatives is very, very different. And I - the one thing I would say is this -

AMANPOUR: Cultural.

FARAGE: What we must not do, what we must not do, there are problems within Islam. There is Islamic - you know, we saw Nice last week. What we must not do is fall into the trap of labeling all Muslims as bad. That's what I'm worried about.

CUOMO: Donald Trump says that that is hiding from something that is inherent within Islam itself that is engendering the problem.

FARAGE: Well, there are 3 million people of Islamic faith living in America. I suggest the way to deal with this is where there are problems, to be tough, but with the rest of that population, to embrace them and make them part of your community, of your society. And unless all of us do this, we're headed for real problems.

AMANPOUR: And we've got one of the European far right leaders here, called Hert Vilders (ph). He also would like to see a Nextit (ph). He's from the Netherlands. He would like to see the Netherlands move from the E.U. as well. The far right leader in France, Marion Lapen (ph), would like to see France move away from Europe. And it is actually all around this Muslim issues, a lot of it, so -

FARAGE: Well, that's part of it. It's part of it. It's part of it.

AMANPOUR: Well, he told me today - he told me yesterday that, you know, any Muslim committing a crime, he didn't even say terrorism, committing a crime should be, you know, denaturalized and sent back home.

CAMEROTA: All right, well - AMANPOUR: We're in a very different anti-establishment territory right now and it's very interesting to see whether the genuine security issues, like terrorism, like NATO and the balance of power and peace in Europe can actually be dealt with in this generation going forward.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and what's happening internationally in Europe and then, of course, here in Cleveland. And there are parallels. And you've both outlined it beautifully.

Nigel Farage, Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much.

FARAGE: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Thank you guys.

CAMEROTA: For being here on NEW DAY. We'll be all watching tonight with great interest.

Thanks so much for watching us. We'll see you tomorrow.

"NEWSROOM" with Carol Costello starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm live at the Quicken Loans Arena for the final day of the Republican National Convention. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm Carol Costello.

It is the day after his major dis on the convention stage. You see Texas Senator Ted Cruz. He's speaking to his home state legation. Let's listen.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: What's it about? What are you fighting for?