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DNC Chair to Address Florida Delegation; Four Headliners at DNC; Interview with Sen. Tammy Baldwin; Exploring Racism and Donald Trump. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired July 25, 2016 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:30:10] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Outgoing DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz is stepping down at the end of the week after those leaked e-mails show party officials were biased in the primary against Bernie Sanders. Wasserman Schultz will gavel in the convention and she is expected to make her first appearance any minute now when she addresses delegates from her home state.

So, CNN's national politics reporter M.J. Lee is live at that breakfast in downtown Philadelphia.

Tell us -- set the scene for us, M.J..

M.J. LEE, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER: Hey, Alisyn.

Well, interestingly, even though Debbie Wasserman Schultz is going to resign from her position at the end of the convention, she is sticking to her schedule for the time being. She's supposed to speak at the convention later today. And behind me she's going to be addressing the Florida delegation at a previously scheduled breakfast. She hasn't arrived yet.

But I can tell you, Alisyn, speaking to some of the members of the Florida delegation here, there are plenty of Sanders supporters who are very worked up about this e-mail controversy and they say that Debbie Wasserman Schultz actually should have resigned a lot sooner and they say that the e-mails that became public actually confirm their suspicious that the DNC was always favoring Hillary Clinton. And actually one Floridian I spoke to, who is a supporter of Wasserman Schultz, said that she even understands why she had to step down.

Now, of course, the question for Democrats going forward, Chris, is whether or not some of the anger at Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the DNC will end up spilling over onto the convention floor. This, of course, is the last thing that the Clinton campaign wants as it gets ready for Hillary Clinton to accept the nomination later this week.

Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Well, you certainly nailed the right question, M.J.. We'll check back with you. Let us know what happens once Debbie Wasserman Schultz comes to the podium. And to be sure, they're hoping that Senator Bernie Sanders, who speaks tonight on the first night of the convention, will put this to rest. But will he/can he?

Let's discuss with Democratic Wisconsin Senator Tammy Baldwin. She has endorsed Hillary Clinton. And, interestingly, good to have you, senator --

SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN (D), WISCONSIN: Great to be here.

CUOMO: You're in the same class, 2012, as vice presidential nominee Tim Kaine, or presumptive nominee, right?

BALDWIN: Exactly.

CUOMO: We'll see what happens when he gets nominated.

So let's deal with the bad news first. Should Debbie Wasserman Schultz have stepped down right away because of what was revealed in these e- mails?

BALDWIN: No, I think she did the right thing. I think everyone wants this convention to be focused on Hillary Clinton, her new vice presidential pick and to move forward. And so I think this is just the right move.

CUOMO: But she's not leaving until after the convention, which, obviously, compromises the wholesale nature of the accountability for the e-mails.

BALDWIN: So, you know, clearly we are going to hear tonight from Bernie Sanders. And I expect him, as he has in the past several weeks, to give a full-throated endorsement to Secretary Clinton, and to talk about how the party must unify. And, you know, I think that's what's going to happen. That's what you're going to see this week. So I'm really looking to starting this convention on that very positive note.

CUOMO: So that means you're going to have to deal with this and spin it positive to people, especially the Sanders supporters. So they come up to you sand they say, senator, this is exactly what we thought was going on, was these people at the DNC, they didn't like us, and they were motivated to try to slow us. They were in -- they were supposed to be impartial and they weren't. What do you say?

BALDWIN: What I say is that we had a primary in the Democratic Party. There are Democrats who supported Bernie. There are Democrats who supported Hillary. Whether they work in parties or are rank and file across the country, and this is the convention where we're coming together to elect Secretary Clinton and to draw the contrast between Democrats and Republicans, between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, between vice presidential nominee Tim Kaine and Mike Pence. This is what we're focused on this convention and --

CUOMO: All right, so Tim Kaine --

BALDWIN: Whether you supported Hillary or supported Bernie, the big differences are between the two parties and the future, whether -- they're looking backwards on the last week. We're looking forward. We're about opportunity. We're about helping people get ahead.

CUOMO: All right. So let's say they accept that answer.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CUOMO: Now the second step is, Tim Kaine. I get it. He's supposed to be a nice guy. He's a catholic guy. He was a missionary. I get it. But I'm a Sanders support and I wanted somebody who represents what I'm supposed to be about. I thought this was going to be a balanced ticket. He is a big trade guy. He supports TPP and all these things that we hate. He's not left enough. He's not progressive enough for us. What do you say?

BALDWIN: Well, I would look at his record. Before he was even in public office, on civil right, dedicating his life to social justice and civil rights, and also in his role in the Senate. And I want to, first of all, agree with you, he is a really nice guy and I very much enjoy serving with him. But beyond that, he has been one of the clearest voices about the Congress of the United States needing to authorize the use of military force and --

[08:35:18] CUOMO: We've spoken about it with him on NEW DAY many times. Can't you guys --

BALDWIN: And I think that is something --

CUOMO: Can't get you to debate it.

BALDWIN: And I think that is something that all Democrats need to embrace, clarity there that has not existed because the Republicans who control both houses of Congress aren't willing to take this on.

CUOMO: Well, that's a complicated issue, right, because it seems -- it seems --

BALDWIN: It is a -- all of the -- all of the issues we're dealing with are complicated.

CUOMO: No, but this one, it seems pretty clear what's been going on is that Congress doesn't want to own a declaration of war.

BALDWIN: That's right.

CUOMO: They don't want to own the strategy against ISIS. They have the both ways. Let the president have unfettered discretion, which he's not supposed to have under the Constitution, to have these types of military actions. And then, if you don't like it, you can criticize him.

BALDWIN: Right.

CUOMO: That's for another day.

So now it comes to, why Clinton and not Trump? So, you've come to this conclusion. You see the polls. Sixty-eight percent say, I don't trust Hillary Clinton. I can't trust her. How do you make her the better candidate than Donald Trump with that big, high negative?

BALDWIN: Well, first of all, I have to say that I trust her. And, you know, I come from Wisconsin. I have been on the ground in my state getting ready for these fall elections, and I would tell you that our Democrats and others are really unifying behind her. So, you know, I feel very strongly. I also think that Bernie's speech tonight will be very important in terms of building that trust and that endorsement. But she has been attacked mercilessly, not just for the full last week, because that's what the Republican Convention was much more about than promoting their candidate. She's been attacked and attacked and attacked over decades.

CUOMO: The question is why?

BALDWIN: Well, I think it's because, like Kevin McCarthy said, we have this investigatory panel that we set up in the House of Representatives so we can lower her poll numbers.

CUOMO: Well --

BALDWIN: I mean, he -- he -- he plainly --

CUOMO: He said he misspoke.

BALDWIN: Let the cat out of the bag.

CUOMO: He said he misspoke. But, also, if there were no Benghazi, you wouldn't have the hearings.

BALDWIN: And then he withdrew from his leadership fight. So --

CUOMO: If there were no e-mail scandal, you wouldn't have had the hearings.

BALDWIN: But -- and that hearing with here somewhere between eight and 11 hours with the spotlight on her, answering every question, mostly without notes because it is such a simple set of answers. She knows the answers. And she has withstood that sort of thing over and over again. So I think throughout this convention what you're going to here in stark contrast to last week, which was all attacks on Hillary Clinton, is about such a positive vision moving forward and about substance, policy, and about the difference between our moving forward and the Republicans looking backwards.

CUOMO: We look forward to seeing --

BALDWIN: Fear versus hope.

CUOMO: We look forward to you seeing -- seeing you make the case.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

CUOMO: Senator Baldwin, thank you for being on NEW DAY, as always.

BALDWIN: A pleasure. CUOMO: All right, so, we're talking about Hillary Clinton. Of course, her opponent is Donald Trump. And he is enjoying this recent situation with WikiLeaks. It actually came out a couple of months ago, but now we know what was in those e-mails. He is giving her running mate a familiar sounding name, "corrupt Kaine" says Donald Trump. What does this mean to Tim Kaine? How is he going to fight back? Is he up to the task? We give you some insight ahead.

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[08:42:30] CAMEROTA: The Democratic National Convention kicks off today with four big headliners tonight. We have New Jersey Senator Cory Booker, First Lady Michelle Obama, Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren and Clinton's former rival, Senator Bernie Sanders. How will they make the case for Clinton and Kaine?

Here to discuss what's coming up, CNN political contributor Hilary Rosen, she's a Hillary Clinton supporter, and CNN political commentator and senior contributor for "The Daily Caller," Matt Lewis.

Great to see both of you tonight. OK --

HILARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: And that's just the first night.

CAMEROTA: That is just the first night. So there are a lot of more key names --

ROSEN: Key stars, first night.

CUOMO: Matt, and, you, as a conservative, having just come off of the Republican National Convention, where they did not have a lot of political marquee names, but they had a lot of celebrity in terms of the Trump children --

MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

CUOMO: And Donald Trump. Do you think that people care about big name politicians?

LEWIS: Well, I think the people in the hall will. I mean when the president of the United States comes out and the first lady, that is star power. And this is star celebrities for people who are political junkies.

I think it's almost the opposite of the Republican Party. You know, the Republicans had more unity in the hall, but less unity on the stage. What happened with Ted Cruz. I think what we're going to see with the Democrats is a lot of unity on stage. You're going to have Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders basically hugging Hillary Clinton.

My question is, what about the delegates in the hall? How do they react? Do they boo? That's going to be the story for me.

CUOMO: You think that Bernie Sanders coming on tonight settles this for his supporters? Or are you concerned about there being a little mini insurrection from the floor?

ROSEN: Look, we're Democrats. You know, we -- we're messy. We -- it's our -- it's our -- the nature of our party. But -- but I think that what you are going to see with Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, sort of progressive leaders of the party, although Bernie -- Cory Booker as well, is you are going to see a progressive case made for Hillary Clinton, a progressive case for unity, a progressive case against Donald Trump. And I do think it's going to settle it in this regard. Like Bernie Sanders did not win this primary. Hillary Clinton won this primary. And everybody has a unified desire to beat Donald Trump.

CAMEROTA: But is Tim Kaine a progressive? I mean Bernie Sanders supporters don't think that he's progressive enough.

ROSEN: You know, people don't know Tim Kaine. Tim Kaine actually is a -- a long time civil rights worker. He took on cases on housing discrimination early in his career. He has done so many things that progressives can feel proud about. And so I think you're going to see progressive leaders, union leaders, Planned Parenthood, teachers, dockworkers, like people are going to be for Tim Kaine and that's going to help him.

[08:45:14] CUOMO: Matt, do you want to put on -- any money on whether or not Michelle Obama mentions Melania Trump or makes some kind of joke about it tonight? What do you got?

LEWIS: I think if it's mentioned, it will be a joke, because you don't -- I don't think you attack Melania.

CUOMO: Oh, absolutely not. Of course it would be a joke.

LEWIS: But I -- but I think maybe something -- making some fun of it like --

CUOMO: What do you think? What's the chance?

LEWIS: I give it only a 20 percent chance.

CAMEROTA: No way. No way.

LEWIS: Minimal. Minimal.

ROSEN: I give it a zero.

CAMEROTA: Yes, you're a zero. (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: You give it a zero? Do you know what she's saying already? Have you seen her remarks?

ROSEN: Michelle Obama is not going to make fun of Melania Trump. It is not her style.

CUOMO: Just the situation. Not make fun of Melania Trump.

ROSEN: Yes. CUOMO: But just say something, "you may have heard this before, but --

CAMEROTA: I think that's in a roast.

LEWIS: (INAUDIBLE) --

CAMEROTA: No way.

CUOMO: It's a political convention. These are the pettiest people on the face of the planet. Politicians are all going at it with each other.

ROSEN: Here's the exciting thing about Michelle Obama. Other than the fact that she's just hugely popular, she knows what it is like to be in that intense scrutiny and in that bubble. She is -- she is the first lady, advocating for sort of the substantive political crowning of another former first lady. That's -- that's a cool story.

CUOMO: How big a deal is it the distinction of having Bernie Sanders come out and say I endorse her. She won fair and square. She should be the person. Donald Trump is the fill in the negative -- negative --

CAMEROTA: Or maybe he'll go rogue like Ted Cruz.

CUOMO: Versus what happened with Cruz. How big a difference, how much does it bother you that they'll have something tonight that you didn't have?

LEWIS: Well, liberals are collectivists and I think that they tend to fall in line. That's the opposite of what you were saying, right?

ROSEN: Yes.

LEWIS: Then the whole Will Rogers, I don't belong to an organized party. I'm a Democratic.

No, I think there is something to it. I think that Bernie and Elizabeth Warren are going to be good soldiers and I think the Republican Party is having more -- more turmoil, at least at the elected level.

But I have to tell you, you know, what, it's something like 43 percent of the pledged delegates are Bernie backers. Bernie Sanders can go out there and be a good soldier and say everything right, but if the people in the hall do not like it, if they're revolting against Tim Kaine, it's going to be ugly. And, I mean, you know, I think that we're going to talk about it. It's going to get talked about.

ROSEN: Listen, a couple of hundred people are going to will protest, but, you know what, there are millions of Bernie Sanders supporters who want to see Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump.

CUOMO: We'll have you guys back to talk about what happens tonight. Thanks so much for being here.

CUOMO: That's 100 percent. CAMEROTA: That's right.

CUOMO: We'll be talking about it.

CAMEROTA: You can bet on that.

CUOMO: A "New York Times" op-ed raising a provocative question, is Donald Trump a racist. You're going to be surprised at what actually comes out in the column. We have Nick Kristof joining us next.

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[08:51:21] CUOMO: It's interesting, sometimes a question itself is so provocative it makes you think about whether or not it should be asked, is Donald Trump a racist? It's a ridiculously provocative question to be sure, but "New York Times" columnist Nick Kristof took it on, raises the question in a new op-ed, and we have him with us right now from New York.

Nick, thanks for doing this. Tell us why you took on this question. You know the heat even this suggestion brings among his supporters. What were you going for and where did you come on it?

NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, I mean, first of all, I do think that racist is a loaded word. I think we should be really careful about simply tossing it around in a political season. So I wanted to go back and look at the evidence. And so I looked back over 45 years. And, I mean, frankly, it's pretty devastating. I started in the 1970s, when the Nixon White House, which was not a famous champion of civil rights exactly, sued the Trump organization, of which Donald was then the president, for systematically denying blacks access to the apartments that the Trump organization owned.

You weighed through more than 1,000 pages from this lawsuit and it repeatedly shows that a white tester would go to a Trump apartment and be shown several apartments immediately available. A black person, as a tester would go and be told that nothing was available. Trump employees said that applications for apartments by black people were coded, c for colored, so that the central office would know to deny them. The --

CAMEROTA: So -- so, Nicholas, so that was in the '70s. I mean, so you went back and looked at these reams and reams of documentation and showed that there was discrimination being practiced at the Trump real estate organization then. That was the '70s. Then what did you find in the '80s and the '90s?

KRISTOF: So, I mean, essentially this pattern continues. Trump moves into the casino business. A former Trump casino worker, who was black, says that when Donald Trump visited the casino in Atlantic City, the blacks would all be taken off the floor and herded into a back room. The former president of the casino in -- the Trump casino in Atlantic City wrote a 1991 book in which he talked about Donald Trump trying to get him to fire a black accountant, saying he doesn't want blacks to count his money. Saying that blacks are lazy.

CAMEROTA: What?

KRISTOF: Saying -- quoting --

CUOMO: You know, I mean, Nick, the account -- the account has been out there. He's referring to a story where supposedly Trump had said, I only want certain types of people counting my money, not a black guy. But, you know, the -- as you know, Nick, what's the counter? The counter is very hard to pin down. That guy never came forward. And when you get to people close around Trump and who have known him, they say he isn't a racist and that you're talking about things that an organization did. Many organizations do them. It doesn't make them right, but doesn't make him a racist. Your take?

KRISTOF: You know, in any one incident, I think there is ambiguity. But where you have a pattern for 45 years in the real estate business and the real estate company that Trump headed, then in the casinos, then more recently, you know, we have Trump this year twice retweeting a tweet from white genocide with a photo of the founder of the American Nazi party. I think it's fair to provide some leeway. But over 45 years, you simply see this consistent pattern. And I don't know what else to call what emerges except racism.

[08:55:10] CAMEROTA: I don't know. Nicholas, it's so hard -- I hear you. You did the investigation. You looked back at all the documentation. But it's just hard to know what's in somebody's heart and in somebody's head and to sort of be able to conclude that. But tell us, I mean --

KRISTOF: There -- so --

CAMEROTA: Tell us more about your case. So you looked at how he acted in the casino, and then more recently what did you find as well?

KRISTOF: So -- I mean let me just address that. I mean there are two elements of racism. One is kind of what is in people's hearts, whether they believe that their race is superior to others. And that is, I think, very difficult to know. But the other is -- other element of racism is a systematic tendency to discriminate against people of other races. And I think that is precisely what emerges in the Trump real estate empire, in the casino empire and, more recently, as a politician, in these episodes. I mean -- and then essentially that goes back to 1989, the Central Park Five, where you had blacks and Latinos arrested for a particularly horrific crime, and eventually exonerated. But at the time, Trump purchased full page ads calling for the death penalty and helped whip up the crowds that in effect created something of a modern lynching.

CUOMO: Right. But just to give him his best defense, right, that's what fairness demands, many people felt that way. That was a case that mischaracterized the facts and led to a real prejudicial effect within the system, as you and I both know.

And then you have what he just said in his speech the other night, where he said these kids in these minority communities, they deserve every right to live out their dreams like anybody else. So does it give you a more balanced picture? Is it cloudy or do you think it's clear?

KRISTOF: Well, for example, it's true that there was a lot of alarm over the Central Park Five case. But the mayor at the time, Ed Koch (ph), was calling for peace. And Trump went out of his way to criticize Koch's call. When the Central Park Five were exonerated, Trump criticized them and said that they, you know, that they had other sins. And, again, I wouldn't make so much of one case, whether it's the Central Park Five case, whether it's retweeting --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KRISTOF: These white genocide posts, whether it's the statements about the Latino judge, whether it's real estate, but when you time after time, over 45 years, have somebody who's consistent actions and statements lead to this kind of discrimination --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KRISTOF: I don't know what else to make of that.

CAMEROTA: Everybody can read your piece for themselves. It was in the Sunday "New York Times."

Nicholas Kristof, thank you very much for being on NEW DAY. Nice to talk to you.

KRISTOF: Good to be with you.

CAMEROTA: "Newsroom" with Carol Costello begins right after this very quick break. Chris and I will see you tomorrow.

CUOMO: Do you want to run the Rocky steps?

CAMEROTA: Let's do it.

CUOMO: You won't do it.

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