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White House Denies Ransom Payment for Prisoners; Refugees Recount Hardships they Endured; Biographer Talks Trump. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired August 04, 2016 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Mike, Mr. Chairman, congressman, talk to me about what you think the key issue is here. We knew that the Iranians were getting money when this deal was struck. So what's the key issue now to you?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Well, two things. So the deal itself had some release of funds that were Iranian funds to begin with. This is, to me, very, very different. And to some notion that these were independent events that all coincided on the course of two days just is not plausible and that's a problem. So there's two things. One, it's dangerous to set this precedent that there will be money exchanged either through a wink and a nod and a black bag in the dark of the night for American hostages. That's dangerous, not because of the message it sends to Iran, that's bad enough, but what it sends to countries in the region that also have an appetite for cash like this. That's a big problem.

Two, this may be in violation of our own sanctions rules that there can be no significant cash transactions that helps materially support Iran's other programs, including their missile program. They're still the leading state sponsor of terror. So, I mean, the judgment on this is God-awful, and I think that's exactly why they did it in the middle of the night, with an unmarked airplane, with foreign currency, to pay off something that if this were true, that they wanted to do this in a way that was up front about a legal case, you wouldn't have done any of that. You would have done it very open. You would have been - you would have been full disclosure, both the Congress and the committees of jurisdiction. That's what worries me.

BERMAN: Well, but the president did say - but the president did say it was happening. He did say $400 million going - he said money was going there. It was reported $400 million that day. We did not have the details about the plane, you know, the euros, things like that.

Kimberly, your response to Chairman Rogers?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, the problem is the timing. Yes, the U.S. had been holding $400 million ever since the shah of Iran paid it to the U.S. as a down payment towards weapons back in 1979. Now, the U.S. did have to pay a lot more according to the case that was working its way forward through The Hague. But the fact of the matter is, this $400 million arrived before the hostages were released. So it's even been seized by some members of the Revolutionary Guard Corps as a quote/unquote "ransom payment. It looks bad. At the same time, within Iran, you know, you have this

competition between the Revolutionary Guard Force and the Iranian foreign ministry and the more liberal government that negotiated this deal, liberal in relation to the Guards Force. And they wanted a sign of good faith to seize on. They told U.S. negotiators they needed this.

BERMAN: Is this - you know, I hear from critics or actually supporters of the deal or people who say the criticism is unfounded, Kimberly. You know, correlation is not causation. I diplomacy we have a lot of situations like this, don't we?

DOZIER: Yes, it's always going to look messy after the fact. Somebody had to blink first. Someone had to do that good faith or that leap of faith. And the U.S. did it with this plane load of cash. Now, the White House spokesman is saying this wasn't ransom. It all depends on where you sit, how you look at it, how you label it. They're really going to have a hard time getting the Republicans to let this one go.

BERMAN: Chairman, you wanted to jump in there. I saw you nodding.

ROGERS: Well, I mean, again, this - the whole problem here is if this in fact was the settlement of a legal case, which the case has not been settled and was working its way through the court doesn't mean there was going to be an adversary position. The argument of the administration is, it could cost us $10 billion. That's a fair argument. I give them that. But the timing of this is so completely wrong and the way that they delivered the cash and then the transaction that happened, it's not plausible to look at this deal in the order of which it happened, in the way they delivered the cash. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

And the problem is, when you have the IRGC, who is out there saying it's ransom, guess what, in the reality of the business of diplomacy, intelligence and national security, it's ransom. That's where the problem is. And, in fact, we're going to have to look at - I hope Congress looks at the fact that they may have violated their own sanctions regime for a cash transaction that is illegal under sanctions that they put into the own - their own administration put in place on the Iranian Missile Program.

So it's that - this is the problem. It's working across purposes. And, again, I think that's why they did it in the dark of night and tried to not disclose the fact of the transaction itself and how the transaction occurred and what was the purpose of the transaction.

BERMAN: But isn't the key to diplomacy, Kimberly, that everyone gets to declare victory? I mean the fact, don't you try to strike a deal where Iran can say one thing happened and the United States can say the other thing happened and everyone can be right or everyone can be wrong, frankly, all at the same time?

DOZIER: Absolutely. And, yes, that's what happened here, until someone disclosed the timing of this deal. The ironic thing is that the CIA director and others have been out publically talking about the fact that Iran, in general, has been having a hard time getting ahold of the cash from the financial markets that was supposed to be a windfall from this deal. And that the Iranian Guards Force, in particular the Kuds Force, has been complaining that not enough of a cash windfall has gone to them.

[08:35:13] BERMAN: Kimberly Dozier, Mike Rogers, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, John.

Former refugees from war-torn countries are preparing to vote for the first time in this U.S. presidential election. Why they take that responsibility so seriously, and their message to Donald Trump, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: During this combative presidential race, much has been said about refugees. Should the U.S. welcome them with open arms, as Clinton says, or guard against them as potential threats as Trump has suggested. Well, I recently sat down with two former refugees who now call America home. They fled their home countries of Bhutan and Rwanda amid ethnic cleansing and genocide and now they're about to cast their first votes for a U.S. president. They talked to us about what they want Americans to know about refugees and their lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[08:40:00] NORAH BAGIRINKA, GENOCIDE SURVIVOR FROM RWANDA: 1994, as the world knows, there was a genocide in Rwanda where around almost one million people perished. I had lost most everyone during the genocide. And after the genocide, I survived, I barely survived, and as a single mother, with three sons, it wasn't easy. It's very hard. Even to find food, to put food on the table. But most of all, I wanted peace. And when I came to America, when I was blessed with asylum, I felt safe. I felt safe for the first time. I said, at least I have a country where I can sleep and where, in the long run, maybe my sons will come and have a future.

CAMEROTA: Bhuwan, let's talk about your story. So what was your life like in Bhutan?

BHUWAN PYAKUREL, FORMER REFUGEE FROM BHUTAN: We were Hindus. The country has been ruled by a Buddhist (INAUDIBLE). So people who do not fall on their (INAUDIBLE) policy were evicted, forced out of the country using the martial laws. We were tracked down by the Indian military forces to Nepali border. Then we were in the refugee camps for 18 years.

CAMEROTA: Oh, my gosh. You lived in the refugee camp for 18 years?

PYAKUREL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: What was life like there?

PYAKUREL: Life in the refugee camp is very difficult, many ways. You cannot work. The biggest problem is, you are not allowed to work. You have to stay in the hut from dust to dawn and that's 12 months, 24 hours.

CAMEROTA: And so, you know, the concern of many here in the United States, I'm sure you've heard it over and over, is who are these people. Who are the refugees that are coming? How can we even know? If somebody shows up without documentation and we don't know their backstory, how can we trust who they are? So how did you prove that you were a good person?

BAGIRINKA: So we are screened. We are given the identities - identity cards. We - there's a process. And then most of us, we are running away from violence. So when we come here, we feel that we are safe.

PYAKUREL: The screening process, in the back - in the refugee camp, it's a very intense screening process. First you have to apply for it. Then you have to wait, because they will do the study and they will do a background check for the people who applied for resettlement. Then after that (INAUDIBLE), the Department of Homeland (INAUDIBLE) will be doing another investigation of our background.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We don't know where they're from. They have no documentation. We all have hearts and we can build safe zones in Syria. But you know what, we can't let this happen. But you have a lot of them resettling in Rhode Island. Just - enjoy your - lock your doors, folks, OK, lock your doors.

CAMEROTA: What do you think about some of the things that Donald Trump has said about refugees?

PYAKUREL: I would strongly recommend and request in fact them to come to our house and talk to us and see. I am working. I am contributing to this community. And I'm every single day, I'm doing exactly the same thing all other people in this country are doing.

BAGIRINKA: For Syrian refugees and other Muslim refugees, I think they're running away from their own people. They - the people who are hunting and killing them, they are Muslims too.

CAMEROTA: Now that you're here in the U.S., tell me what your life is like, Norah.

BAGIRINKA: I feel that America has given me so much. That they have built me. I went back to school. I finished a degree in 2013. So I feel that I've been given a chance that I would never even dream to have.

CAMEROTA: Wow. And, Bhuwan, what's your lifelike?

PYAKUREL: I mean really when people ask in the morning, how are you, I say perfect, because there's no complaint from me.

CAMEROTA: So you're very excited about voting. What will it mean to you to vote? BAGIRINKA: It will means to me that I have a voice. That my vote can

be my voice. That I can speak out for myself and as well speak out to the - for the communities that I've been helping for the last 11 years.

CAMEROTA: What will it mean, Norah, to be an American?

BAGIRINKA: It means a great deal for me. It means to have a country where I have rights, where I have security. I'll be protected number - which is number one on my list. So I feel so excited again to be a citizen, to have a great country like America, to be an American.

CAMEROTA: And, Bhuwan, what does it mean to you now that you're an American?

PYAKUREL: To me, American means I have a place called home. For entire my life, I never had a place of my own. So, to me, America means I belong to this land. This is my country. This is - this soil belongs to me and I belong to this soil. I am part of it. It's a lot - a lot for me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[08:45:02] CAMEROTA: I've got to tell you, talking to Bhuwan and Norah was some of the most patriotic things that I have heard in a long time.

BERMAN: (INAUDIBLE).

CAMEROTA: They are so happy to be here. They're so proud to be American. Norah is about to become a citizen. They made me proud talking to them. It was - it was a wonderful conversation.

BERMAN: Taking nothing for granted.

CAMEROTA: Right.

BERMAN: And that's what I love.

CAMEROTA: That is how they feel.

BERMAN: All right, Donald Trump, what makes him tick? What drives Donald Trump? And how much is he willing to change? We're going to speak to a man who has covered him for 30 years. A biographer joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Donald Trump has rewritten many of the rules in American politics. Our next guest has more than 30 years' experience covering the businessman and now Republican nominee and he's shedding some light on his personality and the rise to the nomination. David Cay Johnston, author of the book, "The Making of Donald Trump." He's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and he joins us now.

David, great to have you with us. DAVID CAY JOHNSTON, AUTHOR, "THE MAKING OF DONALD TRUMP": Thank you,

John.

BERMAN: One of the keys as we sit here this morning in this presidential campaign, Republicans, establishment Republicans, asking themselves, can Donald Trump change or can Donald Trump keep himself in line for the next 96 days in a way where we think he can win the nomination? You have a - there's a quote from your book, which I think is illuminating along this front. Let me read it out loud. "Donald Trump is not a man who tries to understand how others perceive him. Rather, he dismisses those who do not see him as he sees himself. In this, he is a world class narcissist."

[08:50:06] Now, the world class narcissist is at the end there. That's something we've heard other critics call him before. But, to me, the idea that he doesn't care what other people think, that could be alarming to Republicans who are trying to get him to stay in line.

JOHNSTON: Well, Donald is all about Donald, OK. You only exist either to worship him and recognize his greatness, and if you don't, loser. And Donald doesn't know anything. He doesn't know anything about the Constitution. In my book I quote testimony he's given about things that any graduate business or law student would know. I teach graduate business and law students at Syracuse University College of Law. He - his answers are gibberish. He doesn't know what the nuclear triad is. He doesn't understand why we don't use nuclear weapons. Donald doesn't know anything. He didn't know the casino business. Everybody in Atlantic City, when I covered Atlantic City, they all joked about how he didn't know anything.

CAMEROTA: So - but why is that? Why doesn't he knowing anything? I mean he is also described as a successful businessman. He is - he has already - by any definition, had a highly successful career as a businessman. So he has to be smart.

JOHNSTON: He hasn't had a highly successful career as a businessman. What Donald is brilliant at is extracting money from an enterprise. "Fortune" magazine evaluated 496 public companies some years ago. Donald's company came in either dead last or almost last in every category. Among the first casinos to fail in Atlantic City were Donald's, because they were badly managed, because he doesn't know how to manage things. Donald has two great geniuses. He understands the conventions of journalism, and therefore how to manipulate journalists. Secondly, he understands how to extract money from a deal. Those are his to -

BERMAN: But there's got to be a third thing here also because he won the Republican primary by a lot.

JOHNSTON: Yes. That's right.

BERMAN: He has tapped into something in the American consciousness right now. You know, working class whites, blue collar concern, particularly in the rust belt, people frustrated with the status quo.

JOHNSTON: And, John, I spent 20 years of my life at "The New York Times" and after writing about how government policies are creating the problems Donald has gotten people to follow him over. There are all these hidden government policies that I wrote about in a series of books that take from the many and give to the rich. And it's the reason that these people feel this way.

But what Donald offers, he has no capacity to solve their problems. He thinks the president is a dictator. Listen to what he says, the authoritarian way he discusses things. He dismisses the speaker of the House. No bill moves in Congress unless the speaker of the House decides to move it. So he doesn't understand how government works.

And, yes, Donald is a wealthy man. There's no question that he's a wealthy man. But, remember, he spent his whole life dealing with con artists, swindlers, sought mercy for a major drug trafficker. He's gone out of his way to do business with people like this. I've shown that there's very good evidence he's cheated on his taxes.

CAMEROTA: What do you think he won't' release his taxes? What do you think they would reveal?

JOHNSTON: Releasing his taxes reveal three things. He probably has not paid income taxes at all the last 30 years. And I've proven that he didn't in five of those years.

CAMEROTA: Meaning, because he's able to craft it in a certain way -

JOHNSTON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Where he devalues properties? How does he do it?

JOHNSTON: No. No. Because, first of all, there are special rules for full-time real estate investors that allow them to live tax free if they own enough real estate. Secondly, there's a tax return that Donald's tax guy disavowed. He said my name is on that, but I didn't prepare that tax return, that showed zero income from his consulting business, and over $600,000 in deductions. That, plus a lawsuit going on in New York, both suggest Donald has cheated on his taxes. There's very strong evidence that he's done this.

And so I - we're never going to see Donald's tax returns. Never going to see them. And they would tell us a great deal. I mean ask Hillary Clinton. I reverse engineered her tax returns 20 years ago and showed that she and her husband paid more than twice as much income tax as the law required because they got bad tax advice. And the next year, they did their returns the way my article in "The New York Times" implied would be smart to do.

BERMAN: Again, I just want to go back to the presidential race right now and Donald Trump's ability to speak to voters, because he is speaking to voters. There are people -

JOHNSTON: Absolutely.

BERMAN: Who are understanding -

JOHNSTON: Absolutely. There are a lot of people who totally support him and believe that he will take care of them and solve these problems. Solving these problems is a very difficult, complicated matter because we've created this massive legal structure in Congress and the state legislatures that takes from the many and gives to the few. There are just hundreds of rules that I've exposed and written about that work. They're all very subtle. They're not terribly easy to understand. I try to do - turn them into plain English in my books. Donald says, crime will stop the day I'm elected. I will make sure we make things in America. He doesn't making anything in America. And how are you going to make change without Congress? We don't have a dictator in this country. If you want to have an autocrat like Vladimir Putin. We have a Congress. We have a very conservative system that makes change difficult and slow. Donald doesn't know how to navigate that system.

BERMAN: David Cay Johnston. If you want to read more about these thoughts and this work, the book is out now, "The Making of Donald Trump." Thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

[08:55:07] JOHNSTON: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thanks very much. An interesting perspective.

All right, "The Good Stuff," that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Time now for "The Good Stuff."

I want you to meet 12-year-old Aidan Davis of Long Island. While researching ideas for his Bar Mitzvah project, he came across a video about the struggles of homeless veterans. So he sent letters seeking donations of gift cards to give away. Within weeks, $2,500 in support poured in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AIDAN DAVIS, RAISED MONEY FOR HOMELESS VETERANS: I hope that they feel happy. I hope that they feel that - sort of have their faith restored in humanity.

CLENYA LAKATOS (ph), AIR FORCE VETERAN: Amazing, a child so young to be that selfless, to just reach out to people and try to help, you know, homes vets. That really touches my heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: I love the empathy from a young man. Aiden completed his Bar Mitzvah project in June, but he is still helping veterans, raising money on a Go Fund Me page.

CAMEROTA: Great story. John, thank you very much. Great to be with you all week.

Thanks for joining us. It's time now for "Newsroom" with Carol Costello.

[09:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Great. Have a great day. Thanks so much.

NEWSROOM starts now.

Happening now in the NEWSROOM, Trump touting unity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: It's never been so well united.

(END VIDEO CLIP)