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Interview with Senator Bernie Sanders; Interview with Jason Chaffetz. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired September 16, 2016 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Now, we are going to have caveats here because Donald Trump likes to do his own thing. And this is an issue for him that stands alone for basically everything else, because, as we know, this is what launched his political career within the Republican Party. It gave him a launching point for the primaries. And so we're going to wait and see what he does, and if he does for us what he says.

But as I toss it back to you, people are probably saying, why now? And I think one of the big answers is that this election is very, very close. And a lot of these swing states, the Clinton campaign is relying on the African-American vote to come out and be enthusiastic, and that is helped by being angry at Donald Trump. The Trump campaign wants to take that off the table.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Dana.

Joining us now is former Democratic presidential candidate, current Vermont senator, Bernie Sanders. Senator Great to see you.

BERNIE SANDERS, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Good to be with you.

CUOMO: Pleasure to have you here on NEW DAY. Let's dispense with the politics and then we'll get into policy. Are you satisfied the Trump campaign put out a statement saying Donald Trump believes that we have a legitimate president of the United States, that President Obama was born in the United States?

SANDERS: Well, isn't that something. My word, after eight years of having President Obama as president, Donald Trump now thinks he's a legitimate president. Well, I'm just overwhelmed with emotion.

Look, this this is pathetic. And this goes to the root of what Trump's campaign is about. Let's be clear. It's about bigotry. You remember, let's all remember that a few years ago Donald Trump was the leader of the so-called birther movement. And what the birther movement was about, Chris, was not being critical of Obama. This is a democracy. We can criticize Obama. It was delegitimizing the first African-American president in the history of our country. And the reason for that was clear. There are racists in this country who could never accept the fact that we had a black president. And that's what Trump was trying to do, delegitimize the president, not disagree with him.

So I think this is part of his entire campaign of bigotry. It's against Muslims. It's against Mexicans, attacking women's -- women, you know. It is not acceptable for a candidate for president of the United States to be arguing whether or not our president was born in this country.

One more point on this. My dad was born in Poland, OK, came to this country at the age of 17. Chris, do you know how many people ever ask, me whether or not I was born in America? Nobody ever asked me that.

CUOMO: Were you born in America?

SANDERS: Well, I'm going to announce to you yes, I was born in America. And maybe it has something to do with the color of my skin. That's what that whole business is about.

CUOMO: You don't think it was about the fact that the records seemed a little sketchy, that he wouldn't put them out? You never bought into any of that?

SANDERS: No.

CUOMO: All right, him saying that the campaign has put out the answer on this, that's good. We've never seen that from Trump before. He always -- one of the things that favorably distinguished him in the field was I'll answer any question, bring it to me directly. Not on this. Does it matter?

SANDERS: Yes, it matters, because, he's trying to waffle. He's trying to appeal to those extreme, extreme, extreme, extremists who still believe that Obama was not born in America.

CUOMO: So, then tell me this. Why is he doing so well? If it's so obvious --

SANDERS: I'll tell you why --

CUOMO: -- that he's a bad character, that a lot of people who see him as the change agent that America needs --

SANDERS: This is what goes on, I think. And let me start off, I very rarely quote Mitt Romney, you know. He is not one of my political heroes. But Romney, I think, hit the nail on the head when he said Trump is a fraud and a phony. He is a very good showman. He manipulates media fantastically. He does exactly what media wants. He gives them some crazy statement every day and he's all over television. You can't turn on CNN without seeing Donald Trump.

The reason he is doing so well is there is a lot of angst in this country, there's a lot of pain in this country, a lot of hurt in this country. You've got millions of people who are working longer hours for lower wages. You've got 46 million people living in property. People are seeing their jobs go to China, they're seeing their jobs go to Mexico. They're scared to death about the future of their kids. Are their kids going to be able to pay off their college debt? Are their kids going to be able to get a decent job? And what he is saying, I understand your problem, and it's the fault

of the Muslims. It is the fault of the Mexicans, or maybe women are trying to take your job, or those blacks out there. That's what his campaign is about. Rather than saying, OK maybe we should look at why the rich are getting much richer, the power of Wall Street. Maybe we should try to create an economy that works for all rather than just trying to divide us up.

CUOMO: He says, if you believed in Bernie Sanders, I'm your guy. Hillary Clinton just like Bernie says is an author of a lot of our current discontent. She was there for the judgments that were wrong. She was there for the judgments that were unfair. I wasn't. I'm like Bernie. I see the inside for what it is. Put me in. Why isn't that a compelling case?

[08:05:16] SANDERS: Well, I mean, people will whatever reason they will vote for Donald Trump. Please, anybody who supports me, do not think that Donald Trump in any way, shape, or form reflects the point of view that I have.

What I have tried to do in my campaign is to say that we have got to come together, come together as a people. And Chris, some of the most inspiring and beautiful moments of my campaign, when I was out in California, I looked out in fields. We had black kids and white kids, and Latino kids and Asian-Americans coming to the to try to transform this country and address the very serious problems that we have, income and wealth inequality, the only major country not to have health care for all of our people, free tuition at public colleges and universities. That's what my campaign was about, bringing people together, not dividing us up. So please do not anybody confuse Trump with me.

CUOMO: Here's the problem for you in this conversation. All of those fields that were full of people were there because they didn't want Hillary. They wanted you. And now, you are not an option for them --

SANDERS: OK.

CUOMO: Why would they go with Hillary and not Trump?

SANDERS: Good.

CUOMO: When there is a ring -- I'm not saying you're similar as people. I'm not saying that even the motive is the same. But the idea that what's going on right now is unacceptable, she checks the box as the status quo, not the change agent.

SANDERS: OK.

CUOMO: Why isn't he closer to that than she is?

SANDERS: OK, several reasons. First of all, on every important issue, you have heard me criticize the media once or twice. Yes?

CUOMO: Yes, often right to my face for long periods of time.

SANDERS: Often.

(LAUGHTER)

SANDERS: And what we have got to do is not worry -- I see the headlines every day on CNN, this is Trump's kids, or Hillary Clinton's health, all that stuff. That's media stuff. The important thing is what is happening to ordinary people.

You're a middle-class worker out there. Don't worry about Trump's kids or the stupid thing that Trump says or what Hillary may do. Worry about your children and your parents. Who is going to be better on raising the minimum wage if you're a low wage worker? Who's going to be better on pay equity if you are a woman? Who is going to be better in creating jobs by rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure?

Hillary Clinton and I worked together on a proposal to make sure that any family in America making $125,000 or less would be able to send their kids to public college or university tuition free. We talked about and will double the amount of community health centers in this country so if you're a working person you'll get access to health care.

On the issue of climate change, which the scientific community tells us is the most important global crisis we face, Trump doesn't even believe it. Hillary Clinton has some serious proposal in order to combat climate change.

So the point is, don't worry about what CNN has on the air. Worry about your own lives, which candidate issue after issue after issue is better. And I think the answer is by far Hillary Clinton.

CUOMO: Character counts.

SANDERS: Character counts.

CUOMO: Character counts, who's going to be making the decision? Can you trust them? Will they do the right thing when it matters? Will they do the right thing when they do the wrong thing, which happens all the time at the top echelon? You have questioned her judgment. He questions her judgments. The polls are rife with analysis that her judgment is under scrutiny.

SANDERS: Fair enough.

CUOMO: Why do you now believe that she's the right choice when it comes to who can you trust?

SANDERS: Either Hillary Clinton is going to become president or Donald Trump is going to become president, and I'm going to work as hard as I can to prevent Trump from becoming president because I have seven grandchildren and I do not want them growing up under a Trump presidency.

Now, people, I ran against Clinton for a year. Of course my views are different than Clinton's on many, many issues. No question about it. You know what the problem is Trump is we don't know what he stands for. I can criticize Hillary Clinton for this, that, and the other thing. Trump literally changes his views every other day.

And let me say this, Chris, and I do not often do that, I have conservative friends who I like and respect, they disagree with me. But I have to say, I agree with Mitt Romney again, this guy is a fraud and a phony. He changes his views every day. He is about Trump, not about anything else

CUOMO: What do you think of his economic plan? Four percent growth, jobs, jobs, jobs.

SANDERS: That's good.

CUOMO: Catering to that middle class.

SANDERS: Only four percent? Why not 44 percent? Why not come up with anything? Look at his economic advisers. What really bothers me is this guy claims to be a champion of working people. And yet he has as his advisers all these old billionaires with the same trickle-down economic theories.

If you believe that giving tax breaks to billionaires and doing away with health care for 20 million Americans makes sense, I guess he is your candidate. He is not my candidate. It's the same old Republican trickle-down economic theory, tax breaks for billionaires, cutting programs from working people.

[08:10:00] CUOMO: Fundamental proposition. I don't like how it is. It doesn't work for me, I don't like it. There's inaction in Congress. They're all incestuous, it's dirty, it's toxic. She's been there forever in one capacity or another. If I want something different, why do I vote for Hillary Clinton?

SANDERS: Because we have to be smarter. Different is not necessarily better. If different is bringing back the kind of bigotry and racism and sexism that we have confronted for so many years --

CUOMO: That says you're just a lefty. That idea is a lefty P.C., I'm just telling the truth. Whether it's when cops are getting, you know, confronted by kids in black communities all the time that he tells the truth. He doesn't play the P.C. game. When he was going after Obama's --

SANDERS: Well, the truth --

TRUMP: -- he wouldn't put out his birth certificate. He's not afraid of the P.C.

SANDERS: Here's the truth. The truth is that this is a guy who has told us how concerned he is about manufacturing moving abroad. And where does he manufacture his clothing?

CUOMO: A businessman exploits the system that you created. If he were running the system he'd do it differently.

SANDERS: I didn't create it. Well, where is -- but this is the man of principle. He makes this a key part of his economic plan bringing back jobs to America. You know what, you can manufacture ties in the United States. You can manufacture suits in the United States. We still do that. He chose not to do that.

Once again, Chris, the difficulty about arguing Trump's economic policy -- you can be critical of Clinton, that's fair enough -- is that his views literally change every single day. It's impossible to pin him down.

CUOMO: What will you do if you have a president Trump? Do you think you can work with him?

SANDERS: Well, I am not looking for a president Trump. I am looking toward a president Clinton. And by the way, let me just say this, the only way that we ever make real change in this country is when people come together at the grassroots level. The day after Hillary Clinton, as I hope, is elected president, I will do everything I can to sit down with her and say, president-elect Clinton, this is what the Democratic platform is about. We worked together. Let's start implementing raising the minimum wage, public colleges and universities tuition free, transforming our energy system, creating millions of jobs, rebuilding our infrastructure, taking on Wall Street. Let's get to work representing working families.

CUOMO: And what if it's the first day and you have president-elect Trump, what do you do?

SANDERS: Try to overcome my depression, and then figure out where we go from there.

(LAUGHTER)

CUOMO: Except that you see the polls. I mean, politicians never like polls unless they're in their favor.

SANDERS: I see the polls.

CUOMO: But this is a knotted up contest.

SANDERS: Yes. I agree.

CUOMO: It is a mood election. And the Democrats are supposed to lose by historical cycles, right? You had two terms --

SANDERS: Here's the other thing I would say to people --

CUOMO: But I know people get angry when I say that. I know that all the people that support Clinton are going to come after me. They've got to be realistic.

SANDERS: I'm not arguing --

CUOMO: You're in a dead heat.

SANDERS: Yes. I'm not arguing. The question is, could Trump win? The answer is yes of course he could. And that's why I'm going to work as hard as I can to prevent that from happening. This is what I would ask of the American people, and that is, and the

media does not do this terribly often -- put things in contact. Do we have economic problems today? Damn right we do. How are we today when compared to when Bush left office and we were losing 800,000 jobs a month? Has Obama's economic performance been infinitely better than the trickle-down economics that we had from President Bush? Remember, you remember, that the world's financial system was on the verge of collapse. Yes?

CUOMO: Yes.

SANDERS: All right, that we had a $1.4 trillion deficit. That was the largest in history. You can criticize Obama all you want, but he -- it really would be unfair to say that we're not better off today despite our many problems than we were under trickle-down economics.

CUOMO: You think you can move the millennials? That is maybe the biggest section of the electorate for Hillary Clinton?

SANDERS: Well, what I would say, and it's not just the millennials. It's working people in general. Look, we do not have the luxury to say, well, you know, I don't like Clinton, or I don't like Trump. I'm not going to vote, or I'm going to vote for somebody else I'm sorry. We don't have that luxury anymore. What we have got to do is say, which candidate is the best on issues of importance to my life, and we have got to get involved and make those issues -- those solutions come forward.

CUOMO: Senator Sanders, as we pledged all along here in the big, bad media on CNN, what matters, we're here to have you as a platform to talk about any time.

SANDERS: And I appreciate that, Chris.

CUOMO: Senator Sanders, great to see you. All the best to you. Alisyn?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, so we just heard from Senator Sanders on the economy and the birther controversy, and much more. Next we will talk to a top Republican in Congress about Trump's economic plan, and whether today Trump needs to say President Obama was born in the U.S., all of that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:18:30] CAMEROTA: CNN has learned that Donald Trump is likely to address the birther controversy publicly today, after refusing to say President Obama was born in the U.S. for years. The Republican nominee just said on another network that he wants to, quote, "keep the suspense going".

Here to discuss this and so much more is Republican Congressman Jason Chaffetz from Utah. He's also the chairman of the House Oversight Committee.

Thanks so much for being here, Congressman. REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), UTAH: Thanks for having me. Good morning.

CAMEROTA: Donald Trump wants to keep the suspense going about whether or not he believes President Obama was born in the United States? What's happening?

CHAFFETZ: I don't know. I mean I think there were some legitimate questions very early on. But I think --

CAMEROTA: Were there?

CHAFFETZ: But I think that you know, questions about his birth certificate, questions about --

CAMEROTA: You doubted whether or not President Obama --

CHAFFETZ: No, but I think there were some questions. But that issue was put to bed a long, long time ago. I'm hoping he addresses it and moves on. There's a lot more important things to talk about.

CAMEROTA: Indeed. Do you think today CNN has learned that Donald Trump will likely be making a comment about do you think that today he will say once and for all that he believes the president was born here?

CHAFFETZ: I hope so. I hope he does. I think he will. But he -- he does have a sense for, you know, the drama of it, and he'll say it in his own terms. And he's his own person and he'll do it the way he wants to.

CAMEROTA: Right. I mean we saw him on the Dr. Oz show the big reveal about what his doctor had just told him but this isn't a reality show. This is the presidency. I mean, are you comfortable with how he's conducting these things about truth?

CHAFFETZ: Well, he doesn't pick what the media asks him to talk about. I mean, I think he'd much rather talk about the economy, and overseas, and Hillary Clinton.

[08:20:01] I don't think this is necessarily something he was putting out there saying, please ask me --

CAMEROTA: He could have put this to bed. I mean he could have put this to bed a long time ago.

CHAFFETZ: The media gets to choose what these questions are. And you really have -- I question what the media is really pushing. I mean, if it's not really that big of a deal, then do you all keep asking this same question?

CAMEROTA: Because he's never put it to bed. He's never answered it. I mean I guess that the question is, are you comfortable for having somebody who peddles conspiracy theories in the White House?

CHAFFETZ: I don't think he's out there peddling a conspiracy theory at this point. I really don't. I think there are other questions that need to be asked by the media.

But I don't think this is one of those big controversies that everybody says it is. He should put this away and move on. I hope he does. I think he should have done that a long time ago quite frankly. But he needs to answer that question and sounds like he'll do it today.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about his economic plan. That he has put out. He says that he will create 25 million jobs. Is there anything that gives you pause in what you -- well here we go, 4.4 trillion in tax cut over a decade a growth goal of 4 percent annual growth of course everybody has that goal but it's the devil's in the details and he will create 25 million new jobs. Anything that gives you pause?

CHAFFETZ: Well, those are laudable goes. He's got to work with the Congress. I believe whole heartedly that the businessman, the person who hasn't been party of the Washington establishment is in a much better position to actually accomplish that than Hillary Clinton who hasn't ever really created a job and failed while she was the secretary of state. So, the propensity for success, the opportunity for success is much better with Donald Trump than it is with Hillary Clinton.

CAMEROTA: Do you think those are realistic goals?

CHAFFETZ: Yes, I do think they're realistic goals. You get the magic of the United States of America. We're the greatest country on the face of the planet.

You get our economic engine moving in the right direction. I think his approach on trade has got a lot of people around the world worried and concerned that he's going to put America first. But for Americans, that's what we want to hear. That's what we want to know.

That's what is so compelling for Donald Trump particularly with independents because Hillary Clinton is all over the map. She's flip- flopped on TPP, and the trade deals. I mean nobody knows where she stands on it. Put our finger to the wind and see where she's going. She doesn't know how to deal with these issues.

CAMEROTA: So, you like the idea of blowing up the current trade deals?

CHAFFETZ: Well, I think -- we need to put America first. And I think what people understand in the heartland is that Donald Trump will put the United States of America first and foremost. Not his own political career. He'll put the United States first.

CAMEROTA: How do you feel about free trade? Is that good for the country or bad --

CHAFFETZ: We absolutely need trade. I would prefer that we do trade deals one at a time with certain countries. I worry about these big, massive mega deals where we start to lose control of how these -- the ins and outs of what we can and cannot trade --

CAMEROTA: Like TPP?

CHAFFETZ: Look Donald Trump, he does certain things really well. Negotiation is really -- is a strong suit for him. He would much rather have Donald Trump at the table negotiating these deals than Hillary Clinton. Most anybody, Donald Trump is in a better position to do it. He's done it his whole career.

CAMEROTA: I want to ask you about what you're calling on for the FBI to release the full case file from the Hillary Clinton case. You're subpoenaing their records. What more are you trying to learn?

CHAFFETZ: I want to learn the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The FBI released, and I appreciate this, part of the classified report. Why not just release all of the unclassified reports? That seems reasonable.

Why can't members of Congress even look at unclassified material? We should be age to see that. And they cannot redact for Congress the personal identifiable information. That is unprecedented.

And so, we want to be able to see that as well. Release to the public the whole file not just part of the file.

CAMEROTA: Fair enough. What else are you trying to learn? What other unanswered questions are there that warrant -- I know it wasn't put to rest to your liking when James Comey came out and said that he wasn't recommending charges but what more is unanswered?

CHAFFETZ: Well, remember, Director Comey also said that he never looked at what Hillary Clinton did when she testified before Congress. And so, here you have the largest, potentially one of the largest breaches of security in the history of the State Department, records for over four years.

Our committee has -- oversees the federal records, the Freedom of Information Act, and she did this massive data breach. We got to make sure A, it doesn't happen again and we've got to get to the truth and try to put this genie back in the battle that she created this mess when she decided to unilaterally create this relationship with herself and let all these records out the door.

CAMEROTA: Tell us what you're doing in Congress about the EpiPen scandal.

CHAFFETZ: Yes, I'm working very closely with my colleague Elijah Cummings and next week we're going to have the CEO of the maker of EpiPen come up.

I mean, this is drug that's a generic for more than 100 years. It has gone from about $100 eight years ago to $600. Comes in a two-pack but it expires after a year.

[08:25:02] And you've got parents that are concerned about their little, and suddenly, you have this massive increase in price. Very concerned that the FDA has not allowed competition to come into the marketplace, to help drive down the price. So, we're going to -- I called a hearing and we're going to do it, and

that happens I believe on Wednesday.

CAMEROTA: We'll look forward to seeing what comes out of that.

Congressman Jason Chaffetz, thanks so much for being here on NEW DAY.

CHAFFETZ: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Let's go over to Chris.

CUOMO: All right. So, CNN learning Donald Trump will likely address the renewed controversy over the birther issue today. What will he say? What should he say? Why did he allow any of this to happen?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Donald Trump just said on television this morning that he will address the birther controversy today. But he likes to keep the suspense building. Odd to play with something so ugly that way.

We're joined by Ron Brownstein, CNN political analyst, senior editor of "The Atlantic".

It is good to have you.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning.

CUOMO: Professor, let's take on this head line of the day. The birther thing matters. It is a metaphor, a judgment, how you own mistakes in the past. Trump says he wants to keep the suspense going. He wants to have a big announcement about it.

Here's what he said this morning.