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Tulsa Police Shooting; Impact of Shootings on Presidential Race. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired September 21, 2016 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:31:22] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Protesters taking to the streets in Tulsa, Oklahoma, after a police officer shot and killed an unarmed black man on Friday. Crutcher was gunned down by Officer Betty Shelby. She was responding with other officers to two 911 calls about a car stopped in the middle of the road. We're going to show you part of the police video that they released. We warn you, it is disturbing. Here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he's got his hands up there for her now.

Mike, I'm going to hit the recorder. This guy's still walking and following commands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Time for a Taser, I think.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have some kind of feeling that's about to happen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That looks like a bad dude, too, to be on something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: The family is obviously outraged by what you see and frankly what you hear. Police characterizing their loved one as a "bad dude" in the midst of that altercation.

Joining us now is the attorney for Officer Betty Shelby, Scott Wood.

Counselor, thank you for joining us this morning. It's important to get perspective from both sides in a situation like this. What do you see in that video that justifies lethal force?

SCOTT WOOD, ATTORNEY FOR OFFICER BETTY SHELBY: Well, Chris, one thing you have to understand is that before the video goes on, Officer Shelby had been dealing with this individual for probably a minute or a minute and a half. So at the very outset, you know, no one is around the car. She's driven up on the car. She doesn't know about the 911 calls that have come in. She's on her way to a domestic disturbance call. So she stops - it's an obvious traffic hazard - thinking, OK, someone needs some help. They need to get off the roadway or whatever. She goes up to the car. There's no one in it. And when she turns around, Mr. Crutcher comes walking up - down East 36th Street north here in Tulsa.

CUOMO: Right. I understand that the context is relevant, that this wasn't the beginning of it. One, do you know if there's going to be any body camera or dashboard camera that comes out following this, other than the helicopter camera?

WOOD: You know, some dash cam video has been released of the officers that arrived later. When Officer Shelby pulled up, she didn't see anybody around, wasn't planning on taking any enforcement action. She turned her light switch on to the back blinkers of her police car, which do not activate the camera system.

CUOMO: So she didn't turn on the camera. Did she have a body camera?

WOOD: No body cameras. Tulsa has gotten grant money for Tulsa Police Department for body cameras, but that program has not been implemented as yet.

CUOMO: All right. And I'm not saying that in an incriminating way, I'm just saying that very often this video helps explain an officer's actions, not just being damning, but also can often be validating.

So back to the original question, given the benefit of context, what in this video suggests to you a need to use lethal force as opposed to all the other layers of force that they could use. They could have run up and grabbed this man and thrown him on the ground. None of that done. Why?

WOOD: Well, Officer Shelby, at one point that's not on video, decided her gun needed to come out of her holster. Mr. Crutcher had repeatedly gone to his left pocket and started to put his hand in it. She commanded him not to do that at least three or four different times leading up to the point where she finally pulled her gun and got on the video and said, dispatcher, hold traffic, I have a subject here who's not following my commands.

[08:35:07] CUOMO: So he had - so he had three or four opportunities to reach into his pocket and withdraw a weapon and did not and wound up with his hands above his head. So help us understand from that point, given, again, the benefit of context, she said don't go near your pocket. He then puts his hands over his head, meaning he cannot get to his pocket. What was the decision of the officer that I need to shoot him?

WOOD: Yes, well - well, the (INAUDIBLE) movement that he made once he got up to the driver's window. But you have to understand, she had given him commands to get down on the ground -

CUOMO: Right.

WOOD: When her gun came out of her holster. She ordered him to the ground. He refused to comply. He refused to communicate with her really in any way. And she's a drug recognition expert off of Shelby and she formed the opinion that, hey, this guy is really, really high on something, probably PCP, and those people are highly unpredictable. She knew she couldn't physically do anything with him until some help got there. So these officers who work with her on a regular basis -

CUOMO: Right. But when you're dealing with the mentally ill - but when you're trained, correct me if I'm wrong, when you're getting your training, if you believe that someone has diminished capacity, if you believe they're on drugs, if you believe they're mentally unstable, there are protocols of training that do not lead you to, oh, this person's on drugs, you should shoot them. The furtive move, the window is closed, the door is closed, so he doesn't enter the vehicle. I'm just trying to understand why the officer tells you she never thought to get with some of the other officers who were there, multiple officers, and take him down without lethal force. Why did they not try that?

WOOD: Well, because Officer Shelby did believe that he probably had a gun on his person because of the behavior, the continued reaching for that left pocket area. She was very, very concerned about that. And the fact that somebody who's being held at gunpoint simply turns their back and walks to their car, I think you can imply some type of motive or intent for someone who's returning to their car to do what? Get in it and leave? He was standing at the door, there for quite a few seconds, never tried to get - open the door and get in or leave, but it was that furtive movement at the - at the door that made both Officer Shelby fire her weapon and Officer Turnbough (ph), who was with her, discharge his Taser. I know that Officer Turnbough -

CUOMO: Does your - does the officer - we do - go ahead, finish your point.

WOOD: Yes, Officer Turnbough has said that if he would have had a gun in his hand at the time, he would have used it, too. But in a situation like this, he was coming up as less lethal coverage and he responded to the same thing that Officer Shelby saw as Mr. Crutcher stood at the doorway of that car.

CUOMO: Less lethal coverage. We're going to have to figure out what that means.

Let me ask you this quickly, does the officer regret what she did? Does she wish - does she wish she could have done something else?

WOOD: Oh, of course. You know, in hindsight, looking back and now knowing that he didn't have a weapon on his person and there wasn't a weapon in the car, of course she's horribly, horribly upset over this ordeal and has been praying for the Crutcher family. She feels very badly about what happened.

CUOMO: Counselor, thank you very much. Not an easy conversation to have. As we get more facts, please come on the show so we can have a continued discussion. Thank you very much.

WOOD: Great. Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Chris, Hillary Clinton calls that police shooting in Tulsa "intolerable," but what would she do about it as president? And how is she preparing to debate Donald Trump? All of that when her campaign manager joins us live, next.

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[08:41:52] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: And this horrible shooting again. How many times do we have to see this in our country? In Tulsa. An unarmed man with his hands in the air. I mean this is just unbearable. And it needs to be intolerable. And so, you know, maybe I can, by speaking directly to white people, say, look, this is not who we are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right, that was Hillary Clinton speaking out about the police shooting and the death of an unarmed black man in Tulsa. And this morning another American city is dealing with unrest after another deadly police shooting, this time in Charlotte.

So, how would Hillary Clinton deal with this divisive issue? Let's discuss this and more with her campaign manager Robby Mook.

Good morning, Robby.

ROBBY MOOK, CAMPAIGN MANAGER, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: OK, so we heard Hillary Clinton there say this is intolerable. I think lots of people wake up this morning and feel that way. But what, as president, would she do about this situation?

MOOK: Well, first of all, Hillary is speaking out on this issue as you - as you just heard her on that show. But there are two prongs to her approach. The first is to have a set of national standards around how to manage these situations. That doesn't exist right now. And that could help through training to prevent situations like this. The second -

CAMEROTA: But, Robby, what does that mean? Sorry, just to stop you at that view (ph). National standards against what?

MOOK: Well, that there are currently no - there are no set of national best practices on how to manage situations like what happened in Tulsa. These situations are handled by local policies currently. And what she is proposing is that we actually set up national standards so that localities have better best practices to work with and train towards.

The second piece is to restore bonds between communities and law enforcement. So investing in community policing and making sure that local police have the resources to build the relationships in the community to prevent something like this from happening.

CAMEROTA: And when she says, I would speak directly to white people to say, look, this is not who we are, what does that mean?

MOOK: Well, I think what she's saying is that our entire country needs to do some real soul searching here. It is clear that the criminal justice system is not treating everybody the same way and that if you are African-American or from another minority group, you may not being treated - you may not be being treated the same as a white person. And that's a problem. And it's something that we need to surface and we need to address, and that's what she's doing.

I think in contrast you're hearing nothing of the sort from Donald Trump. He's actually only fueling the sort of divisiveness that in some cases can lead to these sorts of situations. So voters have a real contrast and a real choice here.

CAMEROTA: But when you say he's fueling it, how is talking about police lives and respect for police fueling this divisiveness?

MOOK: Well, but - but that's exactly the point here is that this isn't about pitting the police against the community or the community against the police. This is about everybody getting equal treatment by the law. So where that's not happening, we need to acknowledge it and we need to do something about it. And - and, look, we - we need to remember that the same way that some people aren't being treated fairly, we also saw in Houston members of law enforcement walking into the gunfire in that protest. And so we need to also celebrate and lift up the bravery of our men and women who serve in law enforcement.

[08:45:30] What Donald Trump is trying to do is pit people against each other and he's providing no real plans whatsoever about how to make sure that everybody gets equal justice under the law. That's the kind of divisive rhetoric and division that he will bring as president. That's why we cannot let him get into the Oval Office.

CAMEROTA: Robby, let's talk about Hillary Clinton preparing for the upcoming debate next week. She took the day off the campaign trail yesterday we're told to prepare for this. What exactly is she doing to get ready?

MOOK: Well, as you know, she is spending some time on preparations and is spending a particular amount of time this week. She wants to make sure that when she gets to that debate, that she will clearly lay out the plans she has developed -

CAMEROTA: Yes.

MOOK: To make a difference in people's lives. And we're - all we're asking is that Donald Trump do the same thing. I would hope that he goes to the drawing board and puts together some plans, because as of right now, we haven't seen real specifics and we haven't seen serious plans. So we hope that he's spending time doing that this week.

CAMEROTA: Well, we're told that she's been watching some videotapes of his past debate performances. What has she gleaned about a strategy to go after him?

MOOK: Well, I - look, I think what's concerning overall about Donald Trump is, first of all, he doesn't often tell the truth, so she's going to have to spend some time probably correcting the record and making sure that voters understand the facts. Secondly, as I just said, the divisive rhetoric, the wild accusation, the generalities, you know, sometimes it's going to be on her, again, to correct that record and make sure voters know what's really going on. So she'll be - she'll be prepared to do that.

CAMEROTA: Uh-huh.

MOOK: But I think what voters are going to need to look for in this debate is who's ready to be our next commander in chief. And I think they're going to see, once again, Donald Trump is unfit to serve in this office. His plans aren't serious. His approach isn't serious. And his divisive rhetoric is the last thing that we need in Washington right now.

CAMEROTA: Very quickly, CNN has some reporting that she's also trying to figure out things in the past that have rattled him and maybe used those to her advantage. What has - what rattles Donald Trump?

MOOK: Well, I think we've seen that this is someone who can be triggered very quickly. You know, he can get set off by a tweet. That's why I would argue he is unfit and unprepared to have our nuclear codes and lead our men and women in uniform as commander in chief. So, who knows. That's the thing about Donald Trump, you never know what's going to set him off and she's going to be prepared for whatever comes.

CAMEROTA: All right, well, we, of course, will be covering it and it will be fascinating to watch. Robby Mook, thanks so much for being on NEW DAY.

MOOK: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Let's get over to Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Alisyn, now we have heard from both campaigns this morning on these deadly police shootings. What role could they play in the 2016 race? Let's break it down with CNN Politics executive editor Mr. Mark Preston, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:51:32] CAMEROTA: All right, it's been a busy morning. We have discussed, obviously, the deadly police shootings in Charlotte and Tulsa and how these incidents and the response from the candidates will affect the race going forward. So we have CNN Politics executive editor Mark Preston joining us now.

Mark, great to see you.

We had the Crutcher family in here. They are - Terence Crutcher was the man who was shot by police, 40 years old, in Tulsa. And they said, we're calling on the leadership in this country to do something. We need systemic changes, they were saying. Have either of the candidates addressed this adequately so far?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Well, I mean, addressed it in the sense, have they given us - delivered clear plans about how to deal with something that's been going on, by the way, not just the last couple days or last couple weeks.

CAMEROTA: Yes, of course.

PRESTON: This has been ongoing, right, for years and years and years and years and years and we haven't seen clear plans, necessarily. What we have seen is Hillary Clinton's campaign talk in a way that they're willing to try to embrace some kind of plan, whether that plan is even able to be put into place. At the same time, you have Donald Trump, who, again, as we've seen throughout this campaign, doesn't get into very specific about what he does. He just often talks -

CAMEROTA: But, I mean, was Robby Mook specific? He said that they were going to have some, you know, national standards on how to deal with these things.

PRESTON: Right, and I go back to, they say they'll move in that direction, but they don't offer specifics. I don't even know how you - how you would put national standards into place where every community would have to follow a certain way, every police department would have to follow a certain way to deal with this situation.

CUOMO: You know, the politicians get a little bit of a break on this issue in the - what they can do, right? Policing is state and local. So federal standards - what the federal government can do is a little bit unclear. One thing they could do is have a national registry and it hasn't gotten passed. The Democrats have pushed for it. The Republicans have pushed back. But there's a reason because the Democrats have never asked for just that. It always has some kind of gun measure on it that is political dynamite and that winds up creating an impasse.

But Donald Trump has a unique problem here. He has shouted down the Black Lives Matter movement. He has made it seem as though it is the police who are constantly under siege and everything else should be ignored as lefty rhetoric. Then you have two cases like this that raise real questions of improper training. Now he goes silent.

PRESTON: Right, back to back. And what was interesting is that the National Diversity Coalition director that you just had on a few moments ago, really seems to be the best spokesperson for Donald Trump. And, in fact, she didn't agree with Donald Trump's comments about the black communities being in the worst shape ever, ever, ever. I mean she went on to say is, I'm not going to say it is ever, but went on to say that there are still a lot of people who are eating poverty and drinking hopelessness. And that is true. I mean, you know, I think we - we do believe and understand that there is a part of America that is left behind, and that is the inner city.

CAMEROTA: I want to ask you also about what Robby Mook said about debate preps.

PRESTON: Right.

CAMEROTA: Because we - our CNN reporting says that she is combing through old videotapes of Donald Trump, seeing what sets him off, what gets under his skin. So what do we think is going to happen on Monday? PRESTON: Well, you know what was interesting, too, about that - first

of all, it's going to be explosive. And I think whatever happens on Monday, Tuesday's going to be a fascinating day because whoever loses that debate is going to really go on the offense to try to catch up.

CUOMO: Do you think you have a clear winner and loser?

PRESTON: Oh, no doubt in a debate. I don't think somebody - I don't think you walk away with a draw in the first debate. I do think, though, there will be, quote/unquote political blood on the floor. But this is what I think is interesting, is that Robby Mook said this more than once in this interview, that she is going to have to fact check him during this debate. And that could get very uncomfortable if she is continuously saying, well, actually, that is not true, actually, that is not true, actually, that is not true. It will be interesting to see how the viewers actually react to that.

[08:55:07] CAMEROTA: And how the moderator reacts.

PRESTON: Right.

CAMEROTA: I mean this is the ongoing question of whether or not it is the moderator's job to stop the action and fact check because, you know, Chris Wallace has said he doesn't think that that is his job when it comes up to his debate.

CUOMO: Well, it's tricky. You know, it's kind of, damned if you do, damned if you don't. But, ultimately, it's got to come down to the two of them. But, you know, don't you think for Clinton, all this talk about her preparing for Donald, she needs to play her game more.

PRESTON: Right.

CUOMO: This idea of insulting your way to the presidency, that's his bag. He is the problem. You know, that's what he's saying, I am the problem, I am bringing up the problem, that's who I am. I'm saying what's wrong. Isn't her job to show that she is better than that, that she can bring the solutions, instead of just trading barbs with this guy.

PRESTON: One hundred percent agree with you. She shouldn't play - anyone who played up to Donald Trump, such as Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio, lost in the primaries, right? She has to be her own person. However, she does have to show that she's tough standing against him and it's not just what she says, let's watch body language. That is the most fascinating thing that we will see on Monday night between the two of them.

CAMEROTA: Definitely a lot of fascinating stuff. Thanks for previewing all of it with us. Mark Preston, great to have you here.

All right, "NEWSROOM" with Carol Costello is going to pick up after this very quick break and we'll see you tomorrow.

CUOMO: Let me see your debate face.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

[09:00:02] Another police shooting, another African-American man killed, just hours after the Justice Department opens an investigation into a police killing in Tulsa, Oklahoma.