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Clinton & Trump on Police Shootings; Racial Tensions over Police Shootings; Anthony Bourdain Meets up with President Obama. Aired 8:30-9 a ET

Aired September 22, 2016 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:31:16] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Night two of violence over the deadly police shooting of a black man in Charlotte. How will these incidents there in Tulsa, the other ones we've seen, how's it - how are they going to affect the race? It's a real question.

Let's discuss it with CNN's senior political commentator and former Obama senior adviser David Axelrod.

Not so much delving into the merits of the situation, we're doing that plenty, but how you deal with this within the scope of a campaign, tell us about that.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I must say, one thing I wouldn't have done is do what Donald Trump did last night, which is to suggest nationwide stop and frisk. That's like taking a can of kerosene and pouring it over a fire. It wasn't what was needed and he opened himself up to -

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: He said he was just talking about Chicago, by the way, I mean just to - his campaign came out with a clarification and says he was referring to the situation in Chicago.

AXELROD: Yes, but this is problematical because his words - if you - if you have to clarify words each time that someone speaks, it creates problems. And when you're president of the United States, it's particularly problematical. So - but let's set that issue aside for a second.

I don't know how dominant this will be in the debate on Monday. One of the things that we do - you know, I sit with you on a regular basis and there's always something happening that seems at the moment like the defining issue of the campaign. And there are very few real defining issues of the campaign. So we'll see Monday night what surfaces.

But one thing that - one question I have is, does any of this impact on the level of interest in voting in minority communities? Because one of the challenges for Hillary Clinton is going to be to get the kind of turnout that she needs in the black community, in the Hispanic community. So is this a galvanizing issue for voters there or not? We'll have to wait and see. CUOMO: But how do you deal with - how do you deal with this line of unity, unifying versus pandering, on each side? So Clinton comes out and she says on a - on a show that, I'll - I'm going to speak directly to white people and say, this is not who we are. That raised eyebrows, you know, why say it that way? Is that a way of pandering to a black audience? Similarly, you have Trump, who on the one hand says that this cop choked, you know, did she - did this cop choke, which is obviously incendiary and getting before the facts. Then he says the thing about stop and frisk. You know, he seems to be having it both ways. She seems to be playing a little bit of a similar game, no?

AXELROD: Yes. You know, this is such a volatile question, Chris, that's probably best resolved outside the cauldron of a campaign. What's really needed is a bridge between communities because the truth is that a lot of these communities that have been victimized by excessive force are also communities that have been victimized by excessive crime. And they need strong policing and they need security, but it can't happen if there's no bond of trust. And what you need from leaders is to speak to this issue, rather than to try and take advantage of one side or the other. And so we'll see what people - what - what they have to say in the coming days and if it comes up in this debate.

CAMEROTA: Well, let's talk about that, because all eyes on Monday night when, obviously, it will be the first debate. Some people predict it will be the most watched, you know, TV news event ever, if not TV event actually ever.

AXELROD: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And so does the news cycle dictate what we will hear there? I mean you talk about it, that every - every week we seem to think there's a new defining moment.

AXELROD: Yes.

CAMEROTA: This is one in terms of the tension between police and communities that certainly keeps coming up over the year. So, will this be front and center?

[08:35:03] AXELROD: Yes. So it's - it may - it may well come up. I'm certain that the incident - the terrorist - the attack of last weekend will be an entree into that discussion. These issues will come up. But the larger issues that will be resolved or the larger questions that are to be resolved in this debate are the questions that candidates have - that voters have about the candidates. Is - does Donald Trump have the temperament and depth of knowledge to be president of the United States? Is Hillary Clinton straightforward enough, connecting enough with people to be president of the United States? I don't think voters actually score these debates based on answers on any particular issue, but they draw impressions of the candidates from these debates which are pressure filled tests, oral exams. And so they're looking at the total package. How do these candidates deal with that pressure? How do they respond to these questions? Not just in terms of the substance, but in terms of their bearing. And so, you know, I - it will be really, really interesting. As you

point out, this will be the television extravaganza of all time. I'm sure Donald Trump has taken great pride in that because he's big on ratings. This one's going to do very well.

CAMEROTA: Well, look, I mean, if it suggests an engagement with this race, which I think it does, and which we've seen all year, that's a good thing.

CUOMO: True. He said this morning on another -

AXELROD: It is. And the question is -

CUOMO: Go ahead, David.

AXELROD: Go ahead. Go ahead, Chris.

CUOMO: No, go ahead. Go for it.

AXELROD: No, I was - I was going to say, it's interesting there that we expect a large audience. There was - but the polling shows a lack of great enthusiasm about the race.

CAMEROTA: Yes, that is a paradox.

AXELROD: So the question is, do these ratings portend a big turnout, or are people watching because it's just kind of that, you know, like - like they would watch Nascar or something to see if someone hits a wall.

CAMEROTA: All right, David Axelrod, thank you for that analogy and for being here.

All right, back to our - our top story, and that is the truth about Keith Lamont Scott's death. It's in the hands of police in Charlotte. Will the city decide to release the dash cam and the body cam video that shows exactly what happened during that deadly encounter? We'll discuss that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:41:48] CAMEROTA: Protests turning violent for a second night in Charlotte, North Carolina sparked by a deadly police shooting of a black man. This follows the shooting of an unarmed black man in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Race and policing, of course, at the center of this national discussion.

So joining us now is retired LAPD Police Sergeant Cheryl Dorsey, and CNN law enforcement analyst and retired NYPD Detective Harry Houck. It's great to have both of you with all of your vast experience in this field here with us.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: Cheryl, you have an interesting perspective, of course. You are a black woman law enforcement officer. Let's start about - let's start with Tulsa, OK, because that case is possibly more difficult to explain. That was definitely an unarmed man. He was having car trouble when police pulled up on him. And within the space of just a few short minutes, he had been shot. When you watched that video of him with his arms up, as he walked back to his car, when we believe they were issuing orders for him to stay still, or to maybe drop to the ground, they said he was reaching for something in his car. You do see his hand near his door, but the window was shut. What do you see here?

CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LAPD POLICE SERGEANT: Well, you know, we're assuming that he was returning to the car against orders. But he could have very well been returning to the car because they asked him to go get his identification, or his registration and insurance, right, because as a police officer -

CAMEROTA: You're right, we don't know and we don't hear the audio. You're right.

DORSEY: Right. And so that's - that's the first thing that comes to mind. And then the second thing for me that's very troubling is that, if this officer, by her own admission, is scared more than she's ever been in her life, why are you chasing him? Why are you following him? Why are you running up on him if you don't know what he's doing? The best thing she could have done for herself in that moment was to take concealment and cover and give him some commands and wait for additional resources.

CAMEROTA: But does this situation, as you see it - I mean, obviously, we weren't there, but we do have a few different angles of it, the audio - the aerial from the chopper right there that we're looking at now, does this warrant being more scared than you ever have been in your whole life as a police officer?

DORSEY: Listen, scary things happen. It's inherent to police work, right? And so people don't cooperate. People don't always come to us when we tell them. People don't stop. It's inherent to what we do. And you don't get to use your weapon as a bullying tool, as an intimidation tool to compel someone to stop, to come here, right? If you're afraid, take cover and concealment. There's no urgency. There's no exigent circumstance to act now. Wait until you have the resources and make that situation safe for you and the suspect.

CAMEROTA: Harry, Tulsa Police say that they found PCP in the car and the police officer, at least the reports we've heard, reports that she believed that he might have been on something. He had a vacant stare. Does that change the equation for you?

HOUCK: Well, no. I mean the fact - the fact that said just because he might be under the influence of some kind of drug doesn't give you the reason to shoot somebody. You've got to - you've got to feel that either your life or another officer's life is in danger. And what Cheryl had said before, you know, I agree with her tactics. Those are tactics that she could have done. But, if you look at the video, back up arrived pretty quickly. All right, so backup did arrive, all right? And the fact is that there's a lot of rhetoric out there saying that this man was shot with his hands up. I studied that video. His hands were not up when he was shot, OK? [08:45:02] CAMEROTA: This - this video?

HOUCK: Exactly.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I've looked at it as well.

HOUCK: Right.

CAMEROTA: It looks to me like one hand was up and one hand was down.

HOUCK: Then, as you can see, well, actually, he goes over to the - to the door. His hands are down. Now, at that point -

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HOUCK: I don't know what the officer is telling him to do or what to do, all right? But what happens is, at the same exact time when she fires, it appears from information that I have read, that he also fired the Taser at the same time, all right?

CAMEROTA: A different officer fired the Taser We've read that, yes.

HOUCK: Right. And that officer had said that if he had his weapon in his hand, he would have shot him also at that time, all right? That is a statement made by one of the officers. Now, looking at that - all I can say is that the officer shot them maybe - we can't really tell if that window's up or down. It could be the back seat that - that we're looking at in the view. And also -

CAMEROTA: OK, but, I mean, the family's attorney says the window was up and he showed a picture of a blood smear on the -

HOUCK: Well, (INAUDIBLE) -

CAMEROTA: But, I mean, he showed the picture. He blew it up.

HOUCK: Right.

CAMEROTA: And he looked at - you could see the window.

HOUCK: I saw that.

CAMEROTA: And there's a blood smear on it. So the window was up when he was shot.

HOUCK: I - I didn't see the blood smear on the window at all. I saw the blood smear on the bottom part of the door and I looked at that picture very close up. It looks like maybe the window is up but it may be also the window's down. That little shine that you see in the window that you think's a reflection -

CAMEROTA: OK. But, Harry, this raises the question, so just because somebody's not complying they can be shot?

HOUCK: No. No, that's not what I'm saying. He - what he might have done is made what's called a furtive move. All right, listen, I'm a police officer. I tell you, keep your hands out of your pocket and keep your hands up and I've got a gun on you, all right. You and I, what are we going to do? We're going to keep our hands up. This man did not, OK?

DORSEY: But -

HOUCK: All right, and the fact is that maybe now, why, as a police officer you're thinking, why is that man not keeping his hands up?

CAMEROTA: Right.

HOUCK: All right, is he going to reach for a weapon?

CAMEROTA: Go ahead, Cheryl.

DORSEY: And I understand all of that. But what's problematic for me is that she had her weapon out in the first police. I mean who pulls a weapon out on a stranded motorist for any reason? And if you think something, you need to know. If you're going to discharge a firearm, you need to be absolutely sure.

CAMEROTA: But what about the drug connection? What about if - you know, I mean, their thinking is that if he is vacant, if he's not following commands, if he's on PCP, that anything can happen. They - they know that there's violence possible. People are not exercising their best judgment. What's their response?

DORSEY: Isn't that convenient now to say that he was on PCP when she had just received this stranding, because I've also been trained on recognizing someone who's under the influence of PCP and there's something called nystagmus and nystagmus is when your eyeball does not have smooth pursuit. And so to say that he had a blank stare and therefore he was on PCP absent nystagmus, because PCP is the only thing that causes that, is problematic for me. And so I think that officer should be required to articulate exactly what it was that made her fearful, other than I thought something that may not have been occurring. Because what we understand is that it's very difficult to argue with an officer what is in their head.

HOUCK: Right.

CAMEROTA: People -

HOUCK: You know, the perception of danger is different in each officer.

CAMEROTA: Right.

HOUCK: All right, because - and each situation is different. Like you can't compare this incident to another incident. Each one itself is different in its own way. And that officer perceived a danger. I'm telling you to say away from the car. I'm telling you keep your hands out of your pocket and you keep on going for it?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HOUCK: Why?

CAMEROTA: Harry Houck, Cheryl Dorsey, thanks so much for your expertise in all of this.

Let's get over to Chris.

CUOMO: All right, President Obama as you have never seen him before, I think. How did the president and Anthony Bourdain wind up together in Vietnam? Tony Bourdain is here with the delicious story, next. Don't fall asleep, Tony, I know it's early.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:52:00] CAMEROTA: A new season of CNN's "Parts Unknown" kicks off this Sunday. It is in the premiere episode Anthony Bourdain visits Hanoi, Vietnam.

CUOMO: What?

CAMEROTA: Yes, believe it or not. But here's where it gets even more interesting. He gives President Obama a crash course on eating noodles.

CUOMO: Stop.

CAMEROTA: I'm not kidding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY BOURDAIN, HOST, "PARTS UNKNOWN": And then you just hack off noodles. You just drop them in your bowl.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, that's not too elegant, but I'm man enough.

BOURDAIN: And you dip and stir, and get ready for the awesomeness.

OBAMA: I'm ready. Now is it appropriate to just pop one of those whole suckers in your mouth or do you think that you should be a little more -

BOURDAIN: Well, slurping is totally acceptable in this part of the world, but -

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Celebrity chef, author and host of CNN's "Parts Unknown" Anthony Bourdain joins us now.

Wow, that looks cool. How did that come to pass?

ANTHONY BOURDAIN, HOST, CNN'S "PARTS UNKNOWN": Yes. The White House reached out to us, I guess, a little over a year ago and within a very, very small group of people at the White House and at my production company, we were looking for a place that we could do something, you know, like we ordinarily do on the show. You know, I mean I'm not an interviewer. I'm not a foreign policy specialist. If the president wants to hang an eat noodles, great. I should point out, this happened months ago.

CAMEROTA: But, I mean, why not like Chinatown instead of Vietnam? I mean why did you - you went all the way to Vietnam for this.

BOURDAIN: No, the president was doing a southeast Asia swing state visit to Vietnam, his first. So when we heard he was - when they told us he was doing that, we thought, oh, that's a great location. We have a lot of experience there. That would be sort of perfect. And we -

CUOMO: But you were wrong, Tony, because you wound up going into this dodgy restaurant where they couldn't secure it right. You didn't have a lot of time. Tell us about this. This was different for you.

BOURDAIN: I'm really proud of that, actually, because I'm sure the Secret Service would have preferred a banquet room at the Hilton, something more secure. We ate at a very typical Hanoian place, much beloved by locals, and it's a very - a very specific to Hanoi, a local favorite called Bunchav (ph), pork and noodles. And the next day, Vietnamese all across the city were coming up to me crying, literally crying, they couldn't believe that the president of the United States had chosen to eat something so specific to Hanoi. So working class. So every day. So recognizable. It really affected them in a way I never could have anticipated.

CAMEROTA: Oh, my gosh.

BOURDAIN: This happened about five months ago. That was May/June, by the way. A remarkable number of people on Twitter lately say, how can the president be eating noodles with what's going on. Like, dude, something's not happening in real time on television. You should know this.

CUOMO: Welcome - welcome - welcome to our world, Tony.

CAMEROTA: This is.

CUOMO: You can do nothing right. It's just about how wrong it is.

CAMEROTA: But how - how much time did that restaurant have to like sweep it secret - for Secret Service stuff?

BOURDAIN: They had about twelve minutes. I mean they already made an advance team quietly looking at the place and making sure, I mean, I don't know how far in advance, I suspect very much in advance, but it was a, you know, very funky place. The president of the United States sat on a low plastic stool and ate some, you know, very ordinary, sweet food. He was very sentimental about it. It's worth remember, he's very good with chop sticks. He's nostalgic for his time in Indonesia as a young man. He likes Greek (ph) food. And I, you know, I think he enjoyed himself.

[08:55:06] CUOMO: And there was a little bit of concern about food prep right? I mean it's something that you take as one of the risks and the vagaries of travel. What did you do this time? CAMEROTA: But did somebody test it for him?

BOURDAIN: No, it's a - I mean -

CUOMO: Yes, Tony did.

BOURDAIN: I don't - we got no guidance from the White House at all. There was no list of suggested topics or even inquiries as to what we might be asking.

CUOMO: Were you worried if you gave him something that was too spicy or not cleaned the right way or something like that?

CAMEROTA: Or poisonous?

BOURDAIN: I - I - I - he didn't seem concerned about any of those things.

CUOMO: Yes, but you're the one who knows what you're getting into in those situations, Tony. It could go a little sideways.

BOURDAIN: It's actually good stuff. You know it's the - you know, it's the breakfast buffet at the major hotel that usually brings us down on the road. But this is a - this is a beloved local establishments. They're not in business from poisoning their neighbors.

CUOMO: Gotcha.

CAMEROTA: All right, so tell us some highlights from the rest of the season.

BOURDAIN: Wow, we shoot a very music centric really spectacular music centric episode in Nashville. We have a great episode coming up in Rome. It was - it's a very diverse, very unusual season where we really jump around from very different locations, very different shooting styles.

CUOMO: So you've got Vietnam, Tennessee, Sichuan, China. Oh, that's interesting. How - how rebuilt is that place after that -

BOURDAIN: Sichuan, it is just buildings going up as far as the eye can see.

CUOMO: Yes.

BOURDAIN: And I took my friend Eric Repara (ph) there, who was unused to the level of heat and drinking in a place like Sichuan. So that's comedy gold. And Houston, which I think is really going to surprise people. How diverse a city Houston is and how interesting the food and how welcoming to immigrants and refugees from all over the world, the city of Houston, what we think of as a very conservative, even anti- immigrant state. Houston - what Houston has done and is doing is kind of remarkable.

CAMEROTA: So, we only have a few seconds left. Did the president - what'd you guys talk about? (INAUDIBLE). BOURDAIN: I spoke to him - again, I'm not a reporter. I spoke to him as a fellow father of a - of young woman, young women in his case, as an enthusiast for southeast Asia, and as a guy who has strong opinions about food.

CAMEROTA: Anthony Bourdain, thanks so much for sharing it with us. We can't wait to watch it. You can see the season premiere of "Parts Unknown" this Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern only on CNN.

Thanks so much for being here with us. "Newsroom" with Carol Costello picks up after this very short break.

CUOMO: No ground fighting? You didn't try to talk to him about (INAUDIBLE) -

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

[08:59:50] We do begin with breaking news out of Charlotte, North Carolina. A city reeling from a second night of protests and violence and now under a state of emergency. National Guard troops rolling into Charlotte this morning after the governor mobilizes the soldiers and highway patrol to assist local law enforcement.