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New Day

Trump Declared Tax Losses; SNL Takes on Debate; Mark Cuban on Trump's Taxes. Aired 8:30-9:00a ET

Aired October 03, 2016 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:30:03] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, "The New York Times" breaking the news this weekend that Donald Trump may not have paid federal income taxes for nearly two decades. In the past week, Donald Trump has also had a lackluster debate performance, an ugly spat with a former beauty queen and now he's accusing Hillary Clinton of infidelity.

So here with the bottom line is CNN's senior political reporter Nia- Malika Henderson and CNN political analyst and Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast," Jackie Kucinich.

Ladies, great to have you here.

Earlier in the program, we had on one of "The New York Times" reporters who helped break the story this weekend about Donald Trump possibly paying no federal income tax for the better part of 20 years. So let me play you what she says was the headline of her story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGAN TWOHEY, REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": This net operating loss came out of the sort of financial wreckage that he had reaped in the early 1990s. Is this something that, you know, Americans feel good about, that somebody, a wealthy businessman, can basically finagle legally, you know, these losses into, you know, basically income tax, you know, coverage for as many as 18 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK. So, Nia-Malika, he had losses in 1995 because of casinos that went bankrupt of $916 million they found and he - that would allow him not to pay federal income tax for the next 20 years. What do you think the political fallout is?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, you know, I think with his core supporters, they're going to believe the line that this makes him a genius, right? The fact that he paid someone to do his taxes and was able to get away with this and it's legal makes him a genius. That's on a lot of the front pages, in fact, of swing states, local newspapers across the country.

But I think for other voters, this will get at a couple of things, one of which is how great a businessman is he if he is having losses of almost a billion dollars? He's failed a casino, the failed transaction with a hotel as well. So I think those are questions. And I think Bernie Sanders also made a very good point that Democrats, if they want to gain some leverage on this, made yesterday, which is to say that middle class folks around the country pay taxes. Those taxes go to veterans. Those taxes go to infrastructure. And here is Donald Trump not paying any of those taxes, federal taxes, yet he is benefiting from those. He is getting away with something that middle class income earners just aren't able it to and benefiting from a rigged system.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, Jackie, the question I always like to ask is, so what happens next, right? Hillary Clinton happens to be going to your home turf, going to Ohio, today, where she will talk to voters there. This seems like a particularly fertile place to address this tax issue and also perhaps the fairness question that Nia-Malika was just getting to right there. So how does she address it today and do we think Donald Trump will take this on?

You know, since Saturday night when he said some outlandish things on the stump, the man's been pretty quiet, even on Twitter, Jackie. So has he been reined in? Is he in some steel cage somewhere with Kellyanne Conway outside?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean you'd think so. I don't think he's been reined in by any stretch of the imagination. I think that, you know, we've seen over the past, I don't even remember how many months, every time we think he's reined in, he's on message, he gets pulled back by his own, you know, because he wants to be pulled back, frankly.

But, you know, the way Donald Trump talks about this is going to matter because remember during the debate, he said - Hillary Clinton said something about his taxes, how he - maybe he didn't pay taxes and he said, well, that's because I'm smart. There was a great "Washington Post" story that showed a reaction in North Carolina actually and the reporter said everyone gasped in the room, that that's how he looked at not paying taxes. And Hillary Clinton has been going after whether he's been a good businessman this entire campaign and this speaks to that argument. So I think they're going to continue to use this and continue delving into Donald Trump's - his business record, not only on these tax returns, but try to flush out some of his other tax returns, because right now, just looking at the what we have, he doesn't look like that great of a businessman at all and he can't like that.

CAMEROTA: So, Nia-Malika, what are you looking for at the VP debate tomorrow night?

HENDERSON: You know, are they able to keep it nice? I mean these guys - you know, Mike Pence, he's a Midwestern guy. He has that temperament. And also Tim Kaine, known as a nice guy. Even I think Ted Cruz has praised him as being a nice guy. So I think, are they going to be able to keep it that way?

I think for Mike Pence, is he going to be able to change the subject and change some of the outcome of that first debate? Donald Trump largely - I think people think he lost that debate. Is he going to be able to gain some ground, Mike Pence, in this debate?

And then if you are Tim Kaine, one of the things I think that the Clinton campaign had done so brilliantly so far is to use these to gain some leverage, to introduce new topics and to really bait Donald Trump. How does Tim Kaine continue that? What kind of new information do we get about Donald Trump or even Mike Pence in these debates that can continue the argument that Hillary Clinton wants to make about this Republican ticket?

[08:35:02] BERMAN: And, Jackie, Mike Pence is going to have to deal with Alicia Machado and now $916 million in net operating losses. He'd better have an answer for that.

KUCINICH: Absolutely. I mean what we're going to see tomorrow night is kind of a proxy battle with more smiles. These are two very seasoned politicians. But I also think you're going to hear a little bit more optimism because that's just who Mike Pence and Tim Kaine are. They're - and - but, you know, I think at the end of this it's going to be interesting how many people want Mike Pence and Tim Kaine on the top of the ticket rather than the two that we have.

BERMAN: You mean other than Mike Pence and Tim Kaine? That - that's the important (INAUDIBLE) there.

KUCINICH: Right.

CAMEROTA: It will be very interesting. Ladies, thank you very much for weighing in on that.

You should join us tomorrow night for the vice presidential debate. Indiana Governor Mike Pence, Virginia Senator Tim Kaine face off against each other, 9:00 p.m. Eastern. The coverage here starts at 4:00 p.m., only on CNN.

BERMAN: They call it the smile summit.

On the subject of smiles, "Saturday Night Live" is back taking on the presidential candidates and their debate performance. We will look at how they did, next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATE MCKINNON, COMEDIAN: He is a bully.

ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR/COMEDIAN: Shut up.

MCKINNON: He started the birther movement.

BALDWIN: You did.

MCKINNON: He says climate change is a hoax invented by China.

BALDWIN: It's pronounced China.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[08:40:11] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've criticized Secretary Clinton for voting for the Iraq war, but you, yourself supported the war.

ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR/COMEDIAN: Wrong, wrong, wrong. You're being very mean to me tonight, coal train (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, "Saturday Night Live" taking a swipe at Donald Trump and his criticism of the media. This morning we're going to look at what effect the media is having on the presidential race.

Joining us now, CNN senior media correspondent and host of "Reliable sources," Brian Stelter, and Frank Sesno, our old friend, and the director of the School of Media and Public Affairs at George Washington University. Frank is the former CNN Washington bureau chief.

Brian Stelter, let's play just a little bit more because we can from "Saturday Night Live."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR/COMEDIAN: I was against war. Ask anyone in the world named Sean Hannity. I told Sean Hannity. Call Sean Hannity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You told Sean Hannity on his show, and there's proof?

BALDWIN: No, I told him in private. It was just me and Sean late at night. I leaned over and I whispered in his ear, Sean, I'm against the war in Iraq. And then he whispered in my ear, I'm against the war, too. And the next thing I knew, I was kissing Sean Hannity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, so "Saturday Night Live" also made fun of Hillary Clinton, but not as much. Let's be honest, not as much.

So, Brian Stelter, give me some deeper meaning to the whole thing.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Alec Baldwin is having the time of his life, right? I mean he was born to play Donald Trump. He's like one of the best known liberals in New York, so he's, obviously, not going to go easy on Trump, nor are the "SNL" writers who do tend to be liberals in the writer's room, kind of like Hollywood in general. I thought, you know, there was a lot to make fun of, though, about Trump's debate performance and the "SNL" writers could not shy away from that.

CAMEROTA: Frank, it was obviously very entertaining. We're all laughing. Does "Saturday Night Live" affect the election?

FRANK SESNO, DIRECTOR, SCHOOL OF MEDIA AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Well, you know, people don't watch "Saturday Night Live" and then go out and vote, but they watch "Saturday Night Live" as they watch this program, as they read, as they hear and it's part of the ecosystem. And the answer is yes. And some of the jabs that can come from Alec Baldwin, or from Kate McKinnon for that matter, get right to the heart of the matter. I mean I especially liked it when Alec Baldwin, playing Donald Trump, said, the microphone is broken. You broke it. You and Barack Obama took it to Kenya and you broke it. I mean brilliant writing, but it really nails in so many different ways these different threads that we've been hearing and it's part of the noise that's out there and people absorb that.

BERMAN: It's very directed noise, too, though, the system is rigged, the media is again me, everyone is against me. And it's interesting in the context of what we're starting to see now with some newspapers, right?

STELTER: Yes.

BERMAN: More and more newspapers are coming out and endorsing Hillary Clinton or not endorsing Donald Trump. You know, some Republican leaning newspapers that have always endorsed Republicans are now endorsing Gary Johnson or not endorsing at all. This chart, if you can read it with a magnifying glass, sort of paints that picture.

You know, but, Frank, doesn't this just make Donald Trump's point, that the entire establishment is against him and he's something different here, and for people who don't trust the media, what do these endorsements matter?

SESNO: Well, for people who don't trust the media, these endorsements don't matter all and they probably corroborate the distrust that they already feel. But what's significant about these editorials, if anybody reads them, is that they are often very carefully crafted. They are rather - no, they are very specific in laying out their particular cases. And in some examples, such as "The Arizona Republic," where they're endorsing a Democrat for the first time in 130 years, that has a - that's a very powerful statement. So these aren't just blasts out there. These editorials are not just tweets. They are written to make a case and to - to explain. And for people who are either on the fence or undecided, and there's a fair number of those people this cycle, or for those who are not strong in their support, again, they add to that ecosystem of discussion and debate that can be influential.

CAMEROTA: So, Brian, "The New York Times," as you know, over the weekend, got their hands on Donald Trump's 1995 New York state tax return -

STELTER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: That showed that he had a $916 million loss. There is a little excerpt from it, from "The New York Times." We've had his surrogates on today who say this is illegal. They published something illegally. They should be ashamed of themselves. Any thoughts on that?

STELTER: Well, my first e-mail when this came out was to Dean McKay (ph), the editor of "The New York Times." He had said last month that he would take the risk of jail time in order to obtain Trump's taxes. Well, that's actually a coincidence. He didn't say that because he was obtaining these documents. It happened to be a total coincidence. And he does not expect there to be a legal risk as a result of this. But we heard Corey Lewandowsky saying he hopes Trump does sues. I would be astonished if Trump were to take legal action because it would open Trump up to discovery, and that's not what he wants. He's been trying to keep these tax returns private.

Trump's entire brand is about winning. And the reality about politics is that it's a lot about losing, right? Half the people that run for any given office lose. And what we're seeing right now is a candidate who seems to be on the losing end right now. We'll see what happens in November, but right now he's losing. And I wonder how that's affecting him on the campaign trail and in his rhetoric and on Twitter.

[08:45:10] BERMAN: All right, Brain Stelter, Frank Sesno, great to have you both with us.

STELTER: Thanks.

SESNO: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, Donald Trump's surrogates say he is a genius amid the report that suggests that maybe he didn't pay taxes for some 18 years. So what does another billionaire businessman think about that. We're going to speak to Mark Cuban, next.

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CAMEROTA: Donald Trump's supporters say his business practices in the 1990s that may have allowed him to avoid paying taxes are, quote, "genius."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: He lost almost a billion dollars in 1995.

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Correct.

TAPPER: That doesn't sound particularly brilliant to me.

GIULIANI: Well, yes, it does. It shows what a genius he is. It shows he was able to preserve his enterprise and then he was able to build it -

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: There's no one who's shown more genius in their way to maneuver around the tax code as he rightfully used the laws to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: What do other billionaires think about this? Joining us now by phone is one of them, businessman and entrepreneur Mark Cuban. He is the owner of the Dallas Mavericks and the co-star of the show "Shark Tank."

Good morning, Mark.

MARK CUBAN, OWNER, DALLAS MAVERICKS (via telephone): Good morning, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Is Donald Trump a genius if he figured out a way to avoid paying federal income taxes the past 18 yes?

CUBAN: No. If he was such a genius, and there's nobody who likes to brag about his genius more than Donald Trump, why won't he just come out and explain what he did? That's really the missing element here. If he was doing something that had some upside, then come out and say it, explain it to us. But more likely it was just another example of financial engineering and that creates problems for everybody.

[08:50:17] CAMEROTA: But, Mark, this is legal. If this - if "The New York Times" and what they found in their reporting is accurate, and there's no reason to believe it's not, what he did was he declared a $916 million loss in 1995 and he then carried it over for the next 18 years, which you are allowed to do.

CUBAN: Yes, you are. I mean I've taken advantage of net operating losses as well. The - well, first of all, let's walk through this. In order to lose a billion dollars, or $915 million, you have to have $915 million. And I don't think, based off of what he's written, he had $915 million in cash. Based off his interest earned and the interest rate and bond yields at the time, he probably had $100 million in cash that he used as a compensating balance and he had to borrow the rest.

Now, the key question after showing a $915 million loss is, how much money does he owe still, who does he owe it to, was that debt forgiven because if it was forgiven that's going to eat up that net operating loss, because a debt forgiveness is the same as income. He hasn't explained any of those things in any way, shape or form. That's a problem.

CAMEROTA: Well, he - the sum of that could be answered if he released his tax returns, which he has not done, and refused -

CUBAN: Potentially - because, remember, he could just release the first page and we wouldn't have those details. But if he's bragging - if he wants to brag about how amazing his business amen is, let him brag. Explain it. And he hasn't done so.

CAMEROTA: But, Mark, I mean, are you saying that - let's say that this was all legal. Let's say that he really did have that loss.

CUBAN: It was - it probably was legal, yes.

CAMEROTA: OK, it was legal and three of his casinos in the '90s did go bankrupt and he did lose Trump Airlines and Trump University and things like that. So he really did have businesses losses. So are you saying that he should have volunteered to pay more taxes than he did?

CUBAN: No, no, no, not at all. All I'm saying right now is, just explain it, right? What - see, the problem with Donald Trump and why he is unfit to be president is that he won't own his mistakes. We all make mistakes. I've had companies go belly up. I say it all the time. It doesn't matter how many times you fail, you only have to be right one time and everybody will tell you how lucky you are. Just own the mistake and explain it. If he did that, look, there's - president - Secretary Clinton, all the time, you know, is proposing incentives for individuals and everybody to invest in small businesses and giving you - and will give you a tax advantage if you invest and hold an investment in a small business for five years or longer. If he had done something like that, we'll applaud him, right? We want people investing in small business. And if there's a net operating loss you carry forward, so be it because hopefully your wins will exceed your losses.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUBAN: The problem is, there's no transparency and he won't own his mistakes and we don't want somebody like that who is ashamed of what they've done in the business world.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but he doesn't say this is a mistake, Mark, he says that this is a brilliant strategy. So he was able to -

CUBAN: No, he didn't. Everybody around him did, right? He just - well, he says he makes it smart for not paying taxes.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUBAN: And that's just wrong. Yes, that's just wrong. All right, at some point - look, I say it all the time, after military service, the most patriotic thing you can do as a wealthy person is pay your taxes because that keeps the roads paved, the military paid, and kids going to school. And he obviously doesn't understand that concept.

CAMEROTA: But, Mark, I mean are you saying that come April 15th that you would pay more of your taxes than what is - you're legally bound to?

CUBAN: No.

CAMEROTA: I mean if it's your patriotic duty -

CUBAN: No, that's not what I'm saying at all. But what I'm saying is that I don't - I don't -

CAMEROTA: So -

CUBAN: Look, I get offered all the time these tax advantage opportunities, and I don't take them. Meaning, you know, if you - if you buy this insurance product, then you can offset your income and, you know, because those things typically end up being disallowed and so I don't do any of them. And, you know, if Donald is taking tax shortcuts, maybe he bought an insurance policy as opposed to doing something in real estate and, you know, he took a huge tax write-off to offset income. We don't know. And that's the inherent problem. There's no transparency and he is so ashamed of what he's done, he's not willing to speak up and explain to us what happened.

CAMEROTA: Well, look, what you're saying is that if it is true that what "The New York Times" has reported - and it is legal - that he had a huge business loss of his money in the 1990s and he was then able to sort of -

CUBAN: No, we didn't say it's his money, right? We didn't say it's his money.

CAMEROTA: But it's still legal. Even if he borrowed it from people and his casinos went belly up, then he still can deduct it, right, Mark?

CUBAN: OK, so, let's - Alisyn, let's dig in here for a second, right? So we - no, not necessarily. So we've all heard about tax scams and tax shelters, right? What we don't know is whether or not this is a tax shelter. This could be something where he got involved in currencies or insurance tax shelters. There's 1,001 different tax shelters that were - that were very aggressive and were being offered at the time.

[08:55:03] How do I know? Because this was right around the time that we were going public and not long after we sold - I sold my company and all the time there were accounting companies, accounting agencies and tax shelter coming to me offering ways for me to offset my income so I didn't have to pay taxes. I refused to do them. It's just as possible, because we don't have any details behind the front page of his New York and New Jersey return, that this is a tax shelter. We're presuming it's a real estate deal that went bad, but it could just as easily be a tax shelter -

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUBAN: For him to avoid income taxes.

CAMEROTA: Hey, Mark, are -

CUBAN: He won't' explain any of them.

CAMEROTA: Yes, there's no transparency because he hasn't released his taxes. Are you still offering $10 million to charity if Donald Trump were to release his taxes?

CUBAN: Sure.

CAMEROTA: And do you want to up that total today?

CUBAN: No, no reason to up it because he won't take it anyway. But, look, again, this guy is unfit for president. And if you're going to look at these tax returns and try to dig into them, the question you have to ask is, was this a tax shelter or some kind of tax scam? Now, Rudy Giuliani said, well, he would have gone to jail. Not necessarily, right, there's tax shelters that walk a very thin line and if you get your lawyers to fight hard enough, maybe you can win the battle of attrition with your IRS audit.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUBAN: So we don't know exactly what created this tax shelter.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUBAN: All we know is, Donald Trump didn't have a billion dollars to lose at the time these returns were filed.

And one other thing that was very interesting.

CAMEROTA: Yes, quickly.

CUBAN: It was hard to read the date, but it looks like it was April 15th that he filed it. Nobody with complicated taxes files their return on April 15th. It's impossible to get done for the previous year. So if that's actually the case, and it's April 15th, that's fishy in and of itself.

CAMEROTA: Mark Cuban, thanks so much for sharing your perspective with us this morning on NEW DAY. Great to talk to you.

CUBAN: Any time, Alisyn. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, "NEWSROOM" with Carol Costello picks up after this very quick break. We'll see you tomorrow.

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