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Kaine, Pence Clash in V.P. Debate. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired October 05, 2016 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:01] GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I can't imagine how Governor Pence can defend the insult-driven selfish me- first style of Donald Trump.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The vice-presidential debate becoming a night of whose candidate is more insulting?

PENCE: Senator, you and Hillary Clinton would know a lot about an insult-driven campaign.

MATTINGLY: Tim Kaine repeatedly putting Mike Pence on the defensive, using Donald Trump's own words.

SEN. TIM KAINE, (D) VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's called women's slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. He went after John McCain, a POW, and said he wasn't a hero.

MATTINGLY: Words Pence, in many cases, didn't directly defend.

KAINE: When Donald Trump says women should be punished, or Mexicans are rapists and criminals, or John McCain's not a hero, he is showing you who he is.

PENCE: Senator, you whipped out that Mexican thing, again. He...

KAINE: Look, can you defend it?

PENCE: There are criminal aliens in this country, Tim.

MATTINGLY: Instead, trying to take a similar tack against Hillary Clinton.

PENCE: He still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that Hillary Clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables.

MATTINGLY: Trump's running mate at times flat-out denying statements the billionaire has made in the past.

KAINE: Donald Trump and Mike Pence have said he's a great leader. And Donald Trump has business.

PENCE: No, we haven't.

DONLAD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I respect Putin. He's a strong leader. KAINE: Donald Trump's claim that he wants to -- that NATO is obsolete

and that we need to get rid of NATO is so dangerous.

PENCE: That's not his plan.

TRUMP: NATO is obsolete. NATO has to either be rejiggered, rechanged or changed for the better.

MATTINGLY: Kaine frequently interrupting Pence.

KAINE: Let me talk about this.

PENCE: Senator, I think I'm -- I think I'm still on my time.

KAINE: These were Donald...

PENCE: He says -- he says...

KAINE: Hold on a second, Governor.

PENCE: It's my time, Senator.

MATTINGLY: And attempting to prove Trump's unfit for office by quoting Ronald Reagan.

KAINE: He said the problem with nuclear proliferation is that some fool or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event. And I think that's who Governor Pence's running mate is, exactly what President Reagan warned us about.

PENCE: Senator -- Senator, that was even beneath you and Hillary Clinton, and that -- that's pretty low.

MATTINGLY: Kaine hammering Pence on Donald Trump's refusal to release his taxes.

KAINE: And he said, "If I run for president, I will absolutely release my taxes." He's broken his...

PENCE: And he will.

KAINE: He's broken his first promise. Second, he stood on the stage...

PENCE: He hasn't broken his promise. He said...

KAINE: He stood on the stage last week, and when Hillary said you haven't been paying taxes, he said, "That makes me smart." So it's smart not to pay for our military. It's smart not to pay for veterans. It's smart not to pay for teachers.

PENCE: His tax returns, that showed he went through a very difficult time, but he used the tax code just the way it's supposed to be used, and he did it brilliantly.

MATTINGLY: As Pence touted the message Trump advisors desperately want their own candidate to make, that they represent change.

PENCE: What you all just heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending, more deficits, more debt, more government. And if you think that's all working, then you look at the other side of the table.

MATTINGLY: Both candidates asking Americans to trust their candidate and distrust their opponent.

KAINE: We trust Hillary Clinton, my wife and I. We trust her with the most important thing in our life. We have a son deployed overseas in the Marine Corps right now. We trust Hillary Clinton as president and commander in chief. But the thought of Donald Trump as commander in chief scares us to death.

PENCE: There's a reason why people question the trustworthiness of Hillary Clinton, and that's because they're paying attention.

MATTINGLY: The fiery debate ending with a testy exchange on abortion and faith.

PENCE: I sought to stand with great compassion for the sanctity of life. We can create a culture of life.

KAINE: Why don't you trust women to make this choice for themselves?

We can encourage people to support life. Of course we can. But on fundamental issues of morality...

PENCE: Because Senator...

KAINE: ... we should let women make their own decisions.

PENCE: Because there is...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: And, Chris, one Trump adviser described Pence's performance last night as flawless. It's the type of performance he's expecting to continue to roll out here in Harrisonburg later this morning at his first post-debate event.

But look, no one is that surprised that Mike Pence was the calm and steady hand on this ticket. That has never actually been the issue. The issue is whether his running mate can be the same -- Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Sometimes it's easier to defend what somebody else said. It gives you a break from defending your own problems. That was in play a little bit last night. Phil, thank you very much.

So who won? Well, we did an instapoll last night, and Governor Mike Pence won. Forty-eight percent to 42 for Tim Kaine. About two-thirds of viewers also said Trump's running mate exceeded expectation.

Big picture, more than half of the viewers said, "I don't care. I don't care." I'm going to take 29 percent...

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Didn't exactly say, "I don't care."

CUOMO: Well, 53 percent said, "I'm not -- I'm not more likely to vote for either of them." That's "I don't care."

Twenty-nine percent said, "I'm more likely to vote for Trump."

Now, we should note, our poll sample skews more Democratic than an average CNN poll of all Americans, but that probably doesn't bother you if you're in the GOP, because Pence won.

[07:05:03] CAMEROTA: Let's discuss the running mate showdown with our panel. We have CNN political commentator and former New York City Council speaker Christine Quinn. She's a Hillary Clinton supporter. We have CNN political commentator and talk radio host John Phillips. He's a Donald Trump supporter. And CNN political commentator Ana Navarro, who says, "A pox on all of you houses."

Ana, I want to start with you, because I haven't seen you for too long.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm telling you, I'm too angry to be on in the morning.

CAMEROTA: I know, I can see that. So what did you make of last night?

NAVARRO: Well, look, we all know that I am not inclined to like anything related to Donald Trump, I mean, not a thing. But I thought Mike Pence did very, very well yesterday. He was calm. He was cool. He was collected.

I thought in style points, Tim Kaine was a mess. He looked to me like one of those, you know, nice American guys from the Midwest who come into a Cuban restaurant for the first time and drink Cuban coffee; and you've got to peel them off the wall for, like, the next three days. That man was over-caffeinated, over-spazzy. He interrupted 64 times. It was downright annoying. Forget the substance.

In the meantime, you had Mike Pence, who could not be phased. He did not take the bait of spending the entire debate defending the insane things that his running mate has been saying for the last week.

So, I thought the contrast between the spaz-out of Tim Kaine and the calm, cool, collected of Mike Pence was dramatic. Even more dramatic was the contrast between Mike Pence and Donald Trump. I think he gave Republicans and maybe a lot of other voters a little bit of comfort in knowing that, at least not the entire Republican ticket is extensive (ph) -- erratic, insane and just downright crazy.

CUOMO: That raise any questions for you? As a GOP guy...

JOHN PHILLIPS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

CUOMO: ... when you see that Pence is calm, he is a lot of the things that Trump is not. So, you get a balance. Well, that's good. It's good for the ticket. You know, he showed the steady hand, as Ana says. But this point of inflection that, "But Trump is not this way." Is there a potential plus and minus at play?

PHILLIPS: Well, first of all, I disagree with Ana in one very fundamental point. I don't think Kaine actually drank the coffee. I think he tied off a vein, injected it right in there. So he was very, very hyper last night.

CHRISTINE QUINN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Little evidence for that joke. Very, very little evidence.

PHILLIPS: But, look, this has been the black swan election. Right? Where typically, you have the vice-presidential nominees is the ones who are going out and attacking the other side, and you have the presidential nominees try to stay out of it.

Well, this time around, we had more policy discussed last night, and then the presidential candidates really went at it, mano-a-mano.

And you look at the strategy that each side showed last night. I almost thought that Tim Kaine prepared to debate Donald Trump, not Mike Pence. And Mike Pence kind of played the Hillary Clinton role in this debate, and Donald Trump was played by Tim Kaine.

CAMEROTA: That's interesting. So, Christine, was Tim Kaine mainlining caffeine? Did you think that he interrupted and lost some style points?

QUINN: Let me just say, I know Hillary Clinton, and Mike Pence is no Hillary Clinton, no matter what role he's trying to play. Look, Tim Kaine was amped up. There's -- and far be it from me to criticize somebody who's amped up.

So however, you know -- and Cuban coffee will get you there; there's no question.

CUOMO: You could cortaditos like Tang all morning long and be unaffected. But you are unusually, naturally caffeinated.

QUINN: This is -- exactly. It's a gift from God, and I'm grateful for it every day. Let me tell you.

But that said, there was a juxtaposition last night, and I think it really was, as we said, between Mike Pence and Donald Trump. I think when people saw his calm demeanor last night -- and it was calm -- but that calm demeanor, don't forget, that's the front of a man who is anti-gay, anti-woman.

CUOMO: Which didn't come up last night.

QUINN: Not -- not in...

CUOMO: Tim Kaine did not go at him for LGBTQ, and that's how most people knew Mike Pence before he got picked. QUINN: And I wish that issue had come up last night. But what we saw

in that demeanor was somebody who -- and that face he was putting on, someone who couldn't and wouldn't defend the president he is to serve and that administration.

And I think all we saw last night was a reminder -- and I think it was -- Tim Kaine's job was not to come off smooth as silk. His job was to remind America and Americans that Donald Trump is someone who is -- cannot be defended. Cannot be supported even by his ultraconservative, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-immigrant running mate. What we saw last night was -- we didn't see, "Vote for my guy. My guy is going to be great." What -- from him. What we saw is "Vote for me in 2020. Think about me then." A guy who really was really so blessed when Donald Trump said, "Run for vice president," because he was getting kicked out of the governor's mansion if he had run for re- election. That was basically guaranteed.

NAVARRO: I'm not sure he's going to think it's that much of a blessing at this point.

QUINN: Yes, well, that is true.

NAVARRO: It sounded good at the time.

QUINN: I agree.

CAMEROTA: I want to ask you about a phrase that was trending afterwards. And that was "whipping out that Mexican thing."

CUOMO: Oh, boy.

[07:10:06] NAVARRO: Sweetheart, I thought for a while Anthony Wiener had gone crazy for a National Taco Day celebration.

CUOMO: Uh-oh.

Why? Why? Why would you do that?

CAMEROTA: Would you like to see the moment, again?

CUOMO: Why? Why would you do that?

NAVARRO: Go ahead.

CUOMO: It's going to be great.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAINE: When Donald Trump says women should be punished or Mexicans are rapists and criminals or John McCain is not a hero, he is showing you who he is.

PENCE: Senator, you whipped out that Mexican thing again. He -- look...

KAINE: Can you defend it? PENCE: There are criminal aliens in this country, Tim, who have come

into this country illegally, who are perpetrating violence...

KAINE: You want to -- you want to use a big tar brush against Mexicans?

PENCE: He also said, "And many of them are good people." You keep leaving that out of your quote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUINN: He actually said, like, "I guess some of them might be good people."

CUOMO: "And I assume some are good people."

CAMEROTA: Right. That argument. Because if you can get past the phrase, what did you think of that exchange?

NAVARRO: Look, I think that when you are white as snow and a man, you've really got to be careful about "thing." OK? Don't talk about the woman thing. Don't talk about the black thing. Don't talk about the Latino thing, the Mexican thing. Just take the word "thing" right out of your mouth.

I -- Latino Twitter is not happy about this, I can tell you. I got a ton of traffic about it. I'm glad you brought it up. I think it went off real badly with a lot of the Latinos and it's trending today, "the Mexican thing." And people are talking about their American dream stories, their immigrant stories when they first came here.

So, it is backfiring, and I think it's going to be something that you're going to see played out more today and tomorrow.

QUINN: And beyond the potential humorous, we'll say, nature of the phrasing, I thought it was really a very powerful statement by Pence, "the Mexican thing." It was powerful in trying to, A, distance himself from Donald Trump; B, trying to make Americans forget how horribly racist and anti-Latino and anti-Hispanic Donald Trump had been; but mostly, it was patronizing and minimizing. Like you can take away everything Donald Trump has said horribly about Mexicans, about immigrants, about building a wall, about an esteemed judge of Mexican origin by making it this "thing," almost as if Senator Kaine was having some kind of...

NAVARRO: I think you're overthinking it.

PHILLIPS: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: Let me remind you -- let me remind you that Mike Pence was actually pro-immigration when he was in Congress. He was a leader on the immigration movement. He was very compassionate on it. It's one of the areas where he's got a dramatic difference... PHILLIPS: Let's not forget why Mike Pence is there. Mike Pence is

there to bring the Republicans back in the tent who strayed, who didn't like Donald Trump in the primary; and according to recent polls, he's brought a lot of the men back. They need to bring some of the women back.

QUINN: That ain't happening.

NAVARRO: That ain't happening. I agree with Christine there. I think by tomorrow, you know, I'm hoping that by today we're focusing on a hurricane and not focusing on the V.P. debate. Nobody's going to change their mind.

QUINN: And no women, and certainly no lesbians are going for Trump, let me tell you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you for the feisty panel.

CUOMO: All right. Our poll may show that Mike Pence won the debate, but that didn't stop Tim Kaine and his supporters from celebrating. Among them, Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe. What's he so happy about?

CAMEROTA: Wow.

CUOMO: He's getting -- he's getting his groove on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Both sides celebrating their candidates' performance in the vice-presidential debate. Our CNN polls shows 48 percent of watchers thought Republican Mike Pence won the debate. That did not stop top Democrat Tim Kaine and his supporters from doing a little celebrating.

That is governor of Virginia, Terry McAuliffe, doing a little bit of the cabbage patch. He's stirring it up a little bit. He's feeling good. He's getting his shoulders moving. The governor joins us now.

What are you so happy about, Governor?

GOV. TERRY MCAULIFFE (D), VIRGINIA: Well, Chris, first of all, I apologized to my staff yesterday. I broke the cardinal rule: I danced in public.

Listen, we -- first of all, I've got to tell you, we're excited the debate yesterday was in Virginia in Farmville along with university. Really put on a great show. So I was excited about that.

Listen, I sat in the front row. I listened to every word. I thought Tim Kaine did exceptional, laid out the plan that he and Hillary are going to do for this country. And I thought he put Governor Pence on the defensive right from the start.

You know, I had to have Governor Pence try and defend Donald Trump, the things he has said on immigration, on not paying taxes, is a smart thing to do. You know, the issue of nuclear weapons in Japan and other countries, you know. I thought Tim did a very excellent job of bringing out that contrast between the two sides.

CUOMO: What you do is often second to how you do it, in politics, certainly on the debate stage. Do you think that he was too amped up? I mean, for those who know Senator Kaine, very often when he knows that he can play to advantage, he does get hyper-excited. Do you think that happened last night?

MCAULIFFE: Listen, I think there was a lot of material for Tim to work with last night. I want to make the point this is the only debate the vice-presidential candidates were going to have. There clearly is a stark contrast.

Tim very effectively reminded the American public, here is what the head of the other ticket, here's what Donald Trump has said. And some of the things actually are shocking to viewers to actually listen.

But Tim, very thoughtful, very optimistic. He has a great vision for this country. As you know, he was governor, lieutenant governor, mayor, city councilman, all here in Virginia. And I think he brought those traits, his expertise, his intelligence last night to that debate to say, "Here's what we stand for. Here's what Hillary and I want to do for you."

Well, let's step back for a second. How do you, Michael Pence, defend Donald Trump? And to be honest with you, and I know Governor Pence very well. I serve as chairman of the National Governors Association. I worked with Governor Pence. We have a good relationship.

Michael Pence was in a very tough position. He cannot defend Donald Trump, and he didn't defend him. As you know, he just moved off it, which if I were Michael Pence, I would have done the same thing.

CUOMO: Until -- until this. This was the one moment of the night where Governor Pence decided to take on what Donald Trump has said, versus his reckoning of what Hillary Clinton has said. This is the "deplorable" soundbite from last night. Here it is.

MCAULIFFE: Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:20:11] PENCE: He says ours is an insult-driven campaign. Did you all just hear that? Ours is an insult-driven campaign? I mean, to be honest with you, if Donald Trump had said all the things that you've said he said and the way you said he said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that Hillary Clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: What does that moment mean to you?

MCAULIFFE: Well, and I thought Tim dealt with that very effectively. He came out and said Hillary Clinton the next day came out and apologized and said she shouldn't have said it. And then, of course, he pivoted. You know, Donald Trump hasn't

apologized to John McCain. Donald Trump hasn't apologized to anybody for the insults on women, on Latinos, on Hispanics, the wall. And I thought a very effective argument on the issue of immigration.

Donald Trump, in his first 100 days, wants to deport all the folks in this country, as Tim said, 15, 16 million people. It's impractical; it's not going to happen. So, you know, listen, there is a vast difference.

Governor Pence was in a very tough decision. I've done a lot of debates. I've done a lot of high-profile debates. He went in in a very tough position. He has to defend the head of his party, his nominee for president who has said the most -- I will say this, Donald Trump has said the most deplorable things about individuals, and it's just hard to defend that record.

CUOMO: So why do you think in a CNN over-weighted Democrat poll he won it?

MCAULIFFE: I don't. I...

CUOMO: He did, 48-42. So, why do you think -- why do you think the polled people disagree with you?

MCAULIFFE: I guess some people were watching it and, you know, listen, I do say Governor Pence, I had a good relationship with him. I think he has, I think, a cool demeanor. I think some people watched that. But I think Tim was very effective in getting the points out.

And you know, if you're sitting there last night, Chris, and you're watching it, who is going to take this economy to the next level?

And listen, you're -- I'm sitting here in the commonwealth of Virginia. I just announced a 3.9 unemployment rate, the lowest of any major state in America. What people want from their elected officials, work together, build your economy, strong education and make it open and inclusive. And I think there was a very effective points Tim made that, as it relates to the ticket on the other side. They're not open and welcoming to everybody. They've been very divisive. They've been very insulting, and we've got 34 days to go. We've had -- consistently, you've had a very strong lead in Virginia.

Since January, we've gone up anywhere from 7 to 12 points, because Hillary Clinton is laying a vision out of how we work together. We're stronger together. How you get this economy moving for the middle class of this country.

But all the other stuff aside, how do we get this economy working for everybody in America? It works here in Virginia, and I could tell you, Tim was a great governor here. And he's going to take that message to the national level and help the other states.

CUOMO: Governor Terry McAuliffe, keep dancing. I can't care what they say. If you feel it...

MCAULIFFE: You bet, Chris. Thank you, man.

CUOMO: ... you do it, brother.

MCAULIFFE: Thank you.

CUOMO: If you feel it, you do it.

MCAULIFFE: Go ahead and do it.

CUOMO: All right. Governor, thank you.

Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: He had some happy feet there. We support that.

So did Governor Mike Pence do enough to defend Donald Trump last night? Trump supporter and New York Congressman Chris Collins will weigh in, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Governor Mike Pence being called the winner of last night's debate. The Republican vice-presidential nominee will be in the crucial swing state of Pennsylvania today. So how will his debate performance help the campaign? Congressman Chris Collins is a Republican from New York. He is the co-chair of Trump House Leadership Committee.

Good morning, Congressman.

REP. CHRIS COLLINS (R), NEW YORK: Good morning, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: So let's start there. How do you think last night's debate performance will change the campaign going forward?

COLLINS: Well, I mean, Alisyn, to start with, Mike Pence was very professional. Stayed calm and cool, as, frankly, you know, when we saw Tim Kaine, Tim Kaine was rude. He was insulting. He was talking over Mike Pence who just, you know, had to sit there and take it.

But, you know, if the people or the public after watching that said, "Who would I trust to be the president of the United States if tragedy were to strike?" Mike Pence would be the overwhelming choice. Tim Kaine looked unhinged.

So I think just that the demeanor of Mike Pence would do a lot to calm people. I think, actually, Tim Kaine hurt Hillary's team, the team of Clinton-Hillary [SIC]. I thought Hillary was the most unlikable politician until I saw Tim Kaine last night. I think he lapped her.

CAMEROTA: Wow, Congressman, these are strong words. Unhinged. What was a moment that you thought Tim Kaine was unhinged?

COLLINS: Well, when he kept yapping about Trump's taxes and then making up things that he took Donald Trump's words out of -- out of context. CAMEROTA: Such as?

COLLINS: Even at the end there he said he wants to demote -- deport 16 million immigrants in the first 100 days.

CAMEROTA: Which is something.

COLLINS: That is not at all.

CAMEROTA: Well, Donald Trump never said the first 100 days, but he did talk about a deportation force several times during the primary, Congressman.

COLLINS: And what he was speaking about was the immigration control group. And what he said at the end is that we're going to secure the wall -- secure the borders, build a wall, and we're going to make sure we deport the criminal elements. And then we'll deal with those who are -- who are currently, lawfully, you know, living by our laws, even though they came here illegally.

CAMEROTA: This is a...

COLLINS: He is a very...

CAMEROTA: This is a metamorphosis from what Donald Trump first said. What Donald Trump first said many times was every single one of them had to go.

COLLINS: Donald Trump, as -- as Hillary has, as well, every politician's rhetoric changes. Donald Trump who is not a career politician like Hillary Clinton. Granted, his rhetoric has changed, and he is much more presidential now than maybe he was.

CAMEROTA: OK. So his position changed is what you're saying?

COLLINS: Sure. Absolutely. Not a problem there.

CAMEROTA: OK. Not a problem for you, but, I mean, of course, the fact that he has said at one time that he did want a deportation force and that every single one of the 12 to 14, we don't know exactly how many of the undocumented immigrants were here, that always seemed impractical to people. But you're saying Donald Trump has now come around to recognizing that.

COLLINS: Well, I've said all along.