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New Day

Four Police Officers Shot in Targeted Attacks; Pence: Romney 'Under Active and Serious Consideration'; Cruz: Election 'The Revenge of Flyover Country'. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired November 21, 2016 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They do know that they're trying to at least speak to this person here, Chris. That is at least what they have to go on at this point.

In the meantime, if you look behind me, there's this makeshift memorial outside of a police department. It is a scene that people in Texas are quite familiar with, mainly after the Dallas shooting earlier this year. This one outside of San Antonio police headquarters continues to grow after the shooting death of Benjamin Marconi. And this morning, officers not just here in the Lone Star State but across the country are having to take extra precautions.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL (voice-over): Four separate shootings targeting police officers across the country.

CHIEF WILLIAM MCMANUS: Unfortunately, like Dallas, like Baton Rouge, it's happened here.

SANDOVAL: A massive manhunt in Texas for a man suspected of killing a San Antonio officer. Around 11:45 a.m., Detective Benjamin Marconi was shot and killed while sitting in his squad car. The 50-year-old officer was writing a ticket during a traffic stop when a man walked up to his driver's side window and opened fire. He shot Marconi in the head from outside of the car. Police say the suspect then reached through the window and shot the 20-year veteran again.

Police releasing two photos of a man who may be in connection with the shooting and this photo of a car they say fled the scene.

MCMANUS: Most families will be celebrating the holidays. SAPD will be burying one of its own.

SANDOVAL: Hours later in St. Louis, a 46-year-old sergeant was waiting in traffic when the suspect, a man wanted in other violent crimes, pulled up to the driver's side of his patrol vehicle and opened fire. He shot the 20-year veteran twice in the face.

CHIEF SAMUEL DOTSON, ST. LOUIS POLICE: The officer says he saw the muzzle flashes and felt the glass breaking in his window as the shots came through and struck him in the head.

SANDOVAL: The suspect, apparently worried about being identified, now dead after a shootout with officers overnight. No other officers were injured.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were tracking him. We came to this neighborhood. We found him. He shot at police officers again. Police officers returned fire.

SANDOVAL: Another officer shot in Missouri late Sunday night in a traffic stop in Gladstone. That's near Kansas City.

And in Florida, a suspect already in custody after police say Officer Jared Ciccone was shot while conducting a routine traffic stop in Sanibel. According to police, Ciccone was on the side of the road when a suspect drove by and started shooting. Ciccone was injured but has since been released from the hospital.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL: At this point, investigators, important to point out that they don't believe that there are any direct links between any of these cases. But in the meantime, Alisyn, some fairly sobering statistics here from the National Law Enforcement Officers' Fund now showing that the officers -- number of officers killed in the line of duty this year to date has already exceeded what we saw during 2015 -- Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, those are terrible numbers, Polo. Thank you for the reporting.

Let's discuss with former NYPD detective sergeant and professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice Joseph Giacalone and CNN law enforcement analyst and former ATF executive Matthew Horace. Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here.

Joe, we just heard that there's no direct link, authorities believe, between these four shootings, but they all happened within a 24-hour period. The M.O. seems awfully similar. Do you think that there's some sort of loose coordination?

JOE GIACALONE, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE SERGEANT: Well, I think there's more copycats than anything else. I mean, we've seen this now happen a couple other times within the past few weeks from a variety of different suspects and perpetrators.

So, I don't think we can make a direct correlation but, unfortunately, we have a situation where shooting police officers at traffic stops who are parked in their cars is becoming their M.O. So this is something very disturbing.

CAMEROTA: Matthew, we have a little bit of developing information right now. And that is that we can put out the car that police are looking for in San Antonio, as well as a picture, they believe, of the suspect. Here is the car that they say they're looking for. There is a manhunt underway, and this is who they are looking for, at least in terms of a person of interest. These are good photos. They're going to be able to find this guy.

MATTHEW HORACE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. You're going to see this come to a very quick close out. We have a vehicle. We have a suspect identification. Someone out there knows who this is and someone knows that vehicle. So you'll start to see intel start to come in. People will be making calls, sending e-mails and, hopefully, within a very short period of time, we'll see this thing come to a close.

CAMEROTA: Police might know who this is by now. They might even have a license plate number off of those pictures, they're so good.

HORACE: One hundred percent. If you know, like I know, when you shoot and kill a police officer, we're going to find you very quickly and, remember, it's in the citizens' best interests to help us when that person is still out there, because that individual is a threat to everyone.

CAMEROTA: Matthew, do you think that this -- these are copycats, I mean, what Joe was saying?

HORACE: I think to an extent. You know, all these issues come into play like mental health and what people see and what they respond to. I don't know if there are specific copycats but at the end of the day, these ambush attacks are taking a toll on law enforcement.

Dallas, Baton Rouge and this weekend, if you look at the numbers between this year and last year, you take away the ambush attacks, we're behind the curve and not ahead of it. so we're in a tough time.

CAMEROTA: So what's going on, Joe? What's happening out there? How do you explain the root of why there are more ambush attacks right now on police officers?

[07:05:03] GIACALONE: Well, unfortunately, I mean, many people are going to point to the protest against police in the last few years that have led up to this, but there's really probably no direct evidence for that.

So the issue that comes down to is that we know there is a strong dislike for law enforcement in this country right now under what's happening. And I think that we, you know, we need to address that. And I think police departments have got to get out in front of this, too.

CAMEROTA: How?

GIACALONE: We need to communicate better. We have social media and they have, you know, reaching out to the community. They have ways of being able to do things that they never had 20 years ago, and they need to engage more.

HORACE: I think to a certain extent, that would help. But there is no cure for crazy. Some of the people that are doing -- committing these heinous acts are just plain crazy.

CAMEROTA: But don't you think Matthew, that it does help to get the message out that police officers are your friends, they're doing God's work, they're there to help the community. They're in the community. They risk their lives every day.

I mean, all those sorts of things to counteract the other messaging that we've heard, because of all the police-involved shootings where innocent, unarmed people have been shot. I mean, there is a big P.R. issue that needs to happen right now in this country.

HORACE: One hundred percent. If you look at the report from the "Wall Street Journal" last year over last 20 years' public confidence and law enforcement is at an all-time low.

With that, I know a lot of departments are dealing with this whole social media issue. The optics and the coptics that come into play. But even with that, the people that are going to commit acts like this just like in Baton Rouge, just like in Dallas oftentimes, they aren't the ones that we're targeting anyway. So unfortunate but true.

CAMEROTA: Very troubling times, guys. Thank you very much for all of your insight.

Let's get over to Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. So back to the formation of our new government. President-elect Donald Trump may be ready to announce some new cabinet picks today. He had a very busy weekend of interviews at one of his golf clubs. Meetings there.

But Trump also found time to escalate his Twitter feuds with the cast of Broadway's "Hamilton" and "Saturday Night Live." CNN's Jason Carroll live outside Trump Tower in New York with more -- Jason.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And more meetings scheduled here today at Trump Tower. One of those scheduled to show up: former Texas governor Rick Perry, said to be considered to head up the Energy Department. He said back in 2011 that would be one of the departments he would eliminate so he might have some explaining to do once he gets here to Trump Tower.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL (voice-over): President-elect Donald Trump interviewing potential cabinet picks but has not yet made a decision on who will be secretary of state.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've made a couple of deals, but we'll let you know soon.

CARROLL: Meeting with one of his top adversaries, 2012 GOP nominee Mitt Romney, about possibly joining his administration.

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R-IN), VICE-PRESIDENT ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was not only a cordial meeting but it also was a very substantive meeting. Governor Romney is under active and serious consideration to serve as secretary of state of the United States.

CARROLL: The two men frequently sparring during Trump's campaign.

MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Donald Trump is a phony.

TRUMP: Romney choked like a dog. He choked.

CARROLL: A steady stream of possible cabinet picks in front of the cameras throughout the weekend, including loyalists like former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Trump repeatedly praising retired Marine Corps General James Mattis, the leading candidate for secretary of defense.

TRUMP: All I can say is he is the real deal.

CARROLL: Mattis, widely respected throughout the military, could be the first former ranking general to become defense secretary in nearly 70 years.

Trump also considering billionaire investor Wilbur Ross for commerce secretary. Ross, the type of administration official Trump pledged to appoint throughout his campaign, a businessman with a history of resurrecting dying companies, who has billions in the bank.

But in the middle of assembling his new team, Trump making his grievances to Twitter. This time, criticizing the cast of the hit Broadway musical "Hamilton" for this message delivered to Vice- President-elect Mike Pence Friday night at the end of their performance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us. All of us.

CARROLL: In a series of tweets Trump says Mike Pence was harassed and that the cast was very "very rude." Trump insisting they should apologize for their, quote, "terrible behavior."

PENCE: I wasn't offended by what was said. I'll leave to others whether that was the appropriate venue to say it.

CARROLL: But Trump would not let it go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Trump, are you still upset about "Hamilton"?

TRUMP: They were very inappropriate.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: So, a number of people vying for a chance to be part of a Trump administration, ready to move to Washington, D.C. Two people not ready to move to D.C., at least not yet, his wife Melania and their 10-year-old son, Barron. They'll be staying here in New York for a bit so Barron can finish out the school year -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Jason. Appreciate it.

All right, let's bring in senior adviser to the president-elect, Kellyanne Conway. It's great to have you here with us this morning.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT-ELECT DONALD TRUMP: Good morning.

CUOMO: I know you've been holding a lot of meetings, but we are distracted from a little bit of the analysis of the cabinet by the tweeting, once again. You say you want him to communicate directly with the people. It's certainly part of his tool kit that helped him become president. I don't think anybody can reasonably deny that.

But do you believe that this is a good thing for him going forward, asking for equal time as president? You know, you don't get that. Going after critics. Is this really how he's going to spend his time as president?

CONWAY: He has over 25 million followers on Facebook and Twitter; and it's a great way for him, Chris, to take his message directly to people, cut through the noise or the silence, whatever the case may be. Sometimes important things that he's saying and doing are getting zero coverage.

Sometimes he's just trying to cut through the nonsense of people telling Americans what's important to them, which we saw through the elections wasn't true. People constantly being told this issue, this statement, this past transgression is important to you, and Americans said, "No, it's not. What's important to me is this 100-day plan where he's going to drain the swamp and repeal and replace Obamacare and pass meaningful tax reform and create 25 million jobs..."

CUOMO: That's not what he's tweeting about, though. Mike Pence says he wasn't offended. He says that "Hamilton" is overrated, which is, by the way...

CONWAY: Well, that's his opinion.

CUOMO: I know.

CONWAY: That's your opinion.

CUOMO: I know but wow.

CONWAY: I'm going.

CUOMO: Sold out till next August.

CONWAY: I'm taking my 12-year-olds for their birthdays.

CUOMO: They will love it.

CONWAY: The tickets are so expensive it's all they got for their birthday. Sorry, honeys.

CUOMO: They will love it.

CONWAY: But, the fact is -- well, they may love it. I think...

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: But I'm saying, why take it up? Why take up "SNL"? No president does that. Why take it up? Why waste the time? Why distract?

CONWAY: But why do you care? In other words, who's to say that he can't do that, make a comment, spend five minutes on a tweet, and making a comment and still be the president...

CUOMO: Having the right to do it is absolute. Nobody's saying that. But as my president -- as my president...

CONWAY: Then focus on what he did this week as your president-elect, which was unbelievable and I'm going to say unprecedented.

CUOMO: So he gets -- so he doesn't take any responsibility for his own tweets?

CONWAY: Dozens of meetings with world leaders...

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: It's on me for focusing on it?

CONWAY: I didn't say that. I didn't say he wasn't responsible, but you're assigning malice and you're assigning wrongdoing to him where it doesn't exist. And I think we all should have learned a lesson from the election that that doesn't fly with the voters.

CUOMO: Except this is about his base as an insurgent and playing on what people are angry and frustrated about.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: He won because he won -- we won Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania for the first time in decades.

CUOMO: True. But this is not like it was a blowout, right? It was -- you won by 100,000 votes in three states, and you lost the popular vote.

CONWAY: No, this is a blowout because he got over 300 electoral votes.

CUOMO: He's now president of everybody.

CONWAY: Right, he said he will be.

CUOMO: So why focus on divisions? That's all I'm saying.

CONWAY: It's not focus on divisions. This network and other people will always be focused on his divisions. How about accepting the election results, Chris, and letting him form a government?

CUOMO: How -- how have we not done that?

CONWAY: By this conversation and others.

CUOMO: No, I mean, look, the tweeting is on him. That's all I'm saying. CONWAY: OK.

CUOMO: That's all. It's not on us.

CONWAY: But you see what else he's tweeting? He's tweeting about the people he's meeting...

CUOMO: Yes.

CONWAY: ... which have been phenomenal. I've been there. President for -- at Bedminister, in the Tower every day when people are coming in and out. You're talking about literally dozens and dozens of meetings with heads of state, with captains of industry, with sitting and former governors, members of Congress, senators.

These are people -- a diverse group of people who come from many different backgrounds, who are all lending their opinions and their advice and their counsel and their experience to the president-elect and the vice president-elect and some of whom may end up in his cabinet.

But he is step -- a leader takes the counsel of many people, and that's precisely what he's doing.

CUOMO: And a leader should also have a thick skin.

Let's talk about some of these choices. Jeff Sessions as A.G. What do you believe or anticipate the problems with confirmation to be, because of his history that's going to be a big concern of people on the left?

CONWAY: Let's talk about his history. He was the attorney general of Alabama; before that he was the U.S. attorney. He made sure that one of the Klansmen's son who murdered an African-American man got the death penalty. He pushed for that. It was the first time a white man was given the death penalty for killing an African-American man in Alabama since 1913.

He voted to honor Rosa Parks. He voted to confirm former -- one of his predecessors, former Attorney General Eric Holder, also African- American, and President Obama's pick. He just could have said, "You know what?" -- what a lot of Democrats are saying now -- "I don't like his politics. I'm not going to vote for him." Yet, he did. He respected President Obama's right to appoint Eric Holder, just happens to be African-American.

CUOMO: Right, you're leaving some facts out, though, right?

CONWAY: No, no, because all you...

CUOMO: He got denied a judgeship in 1986. Was there a reason for that?

CONWAY: Yes. And people who -- people who loved -- people like Arlen Specter who denied it later said, "I should not have done that because I find him, now that I serve with him, I find him to be egalitarian." He is...

CUOMO: Wouldn't it be easier for him to come out and say, "By the way, this stuff about me joking about the KKK..."

CONWAY: He has said that.

CUOMO: "... that's nonsense."

CONWAY: He has said that.

CUOMO: "I believe the NAACP is a good organization. I believe the Voting Rights Act is an important law, as the attorney general, to enforce in this country."

CONWAY: But he voted to -- he voted for all types of civil rights extensions.

CUOMO: No, he's been actively against that act for a long time.

CONWAY: You have to look at the full measure of the man.

And I know people who don't want to respect the election results, whoever they are out there...

CUOMO: I think that's an excuse, Kellyanne. I'm talking about the attorney general...

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: ... excuse me, are still in campaign mode. They're still in campaign mode. And they...

CUOMO: He's attorney general, your choice. He is actively against the Voting Rights Act.

CONWAY: Why didn't Democrats put anybody up against him last time he ran in 2014? Nobody primaried him...

CUOMO: In Alabama?

CONWAY: Sure. If you're against him, be the sacrificial lamb, say, "I'm going to stop this guy because of who he is." They couldn't do it, because they know who he is. They're looking at the full record. He's been a United States Senator for 20 years. He was a law enforcement officer before that. He's incredibly qualified.

Look, the criteria for any of these posts, Chris, is No. 1, are you qualified and capable of doing the job on day one? Secondly is are you loyal to the agenda that the president-elect has put forward as his vision? And he has a right to go ahead and implement that with the advisors that he surrounds himself with.

You know, let's -- this is what confirmation hearings are for. And I would hope people will express editorial courtesy to someone they've worked with and who they know in fullness. I know there are some pundits out there saying his name should be rescinded because they have no place in saying that. They're welcome to say it...

CUOMO: That's an opinion. I'm just asking about the facts of his service, both past and present.

CONWAY: And I'm giving you many of them.

CUOMO: And I'm happy to put him right where you are...

CONWAY: And I've giving you many of those.

CUOMO: ... and interview him any time he wants.

Rudy Giuliani or Mitt Romney for secretary of state. There seems to be this binary conversation going on here. It's one or the other. Is that true in terms of the internal calculus? Is Rudy Giuliani not up for anything else if he doesn't become secretary of state?

CONWAY: I can't discuss the particulars, but I will tell you that they're both -- they're both -- met with Mr. Trump this weekend, President-elect Trump this weekend. They both have been very distinguished public servants. They had very different roles in President-elect Trump's campaigns.

CUOMO: Different roles. Boy, you are good, Kellyanne. I've got to tell you.

CONWAY: There are other people -- there's a long short list for each of these positions.

CUOMO: Right.

CONWAY: I mean, he's also met with Senator Bob Corker from Tennessee, who is rumored to be on the list for secretary of state. There are others, obviously, who are qualified.

But, again, let's go back to my previous comment, which is not everyone who consults with the president-elect and comes to meet with him, Chris, is going to be in his cabinet or in his federal government. And I think that's important to remember, because it's -- we're really happy that so many people want to come and give their counsel. Honestly, to express their wisdom, to share their experiences, to give advice.

A lot of what Mitt Romney said about the world in 2012 when he ran against President Obama has come true. And he knows an awful lot about the world. I thought it was also very gracious. You know, it's a very, very small class of people who have run as the presidential nominees of their party, and there are two of them. They're also both successful job creators, which is very rare in politics.

CUOMO: And the president-elect is willing to forgive all the things that were said about him by Mitt Romney?

CONWAY: He is a very forgiving, very gracious person. And he's also a wonderful listener and wonderful learner, even as you know he's the man who's in command and control of these ultimate decisions. I'm telling you, the first -- honestly one of the first pieces of character and leadership is that you are willing to listen to other people. I saw it when he was a candidate; I see it as president- elect; and you will see it as President of the United States.

CUOMO: Kellyanne Conway, thank you very much for being here...

CONWAY: Thank you. You got it.

CUOMO: ... as always.

Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, Chris.

They've long been dismissed as the flyover states, but was the 2016 election a revenge from the millions of suburban voters between the east and the west coasts. We'll look at them, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:21:49] SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This election could be well understood as the revenge of flyover country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right. That was Republican Senator Ted Cruz crediting rural America for Donald Trump's election victory. He says Trump's win is a repudiation of elites on both coasts. In fact, CNN exit polling does show Donald Trump winning the majority of rural and suburban America. Can this be characterized as a middle America takeover?

Joining us now is Michael Smerconish, CNN political commentator and host of CNN's "Smerconish." Hi, Michael.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: So, is this a middle America takeover? Do you agree with that premise?

SMERCONISH: I do. I -- I think there was a rural revolt. And let me give a tip of the hat of David Wassermann at "The Cooke Political Report," because he crunches this data in a way that I can understand. And he portrays it as Cracker Barrel versus Whole Foods.

Alisyn, there are 3,100 counties in the United States. Cracker Barrel and Whole Foods, which reach two different audiences, overlap in only about 90 of those counties. Well, listen to this, Donald Trump won 76 percent of counties with a Cracker Barrel and only 22 percent of those with a Whole Foods. That's a 54 percent gap.

If you go back to 1992, the gap between the two was only 19 percent. And it's grown every single presidential election since '92. It grew the largest in this particular election. So, there's no doubt about it. There's this increasing rural versus

urban and suburban divide.

CUOMO: Is there a virtue in this? I mean, it keeps getting likened by commentators and big thinkers to the nationalism movement that's sweeping across Europe, as a manifestation of the far right; as whites coming back against diversity; against the elites and the wealthy. How do you see it?

SMERCONISH: I see it more economic than I do see it predicated on race and ethnicity. And, you know, the key question now going forward for the next four years is whether President-elect Trump, having been elected by folks who are suffering in rural America, suffering economically more so than those urban and suburban areas, can he deliver the jobs?

I know we get caught up in the all of the incendiary rhetoric and language about a campaign like this, but in the end, I think it was much based on economic and job pictures.

CAMEROTA: You know, Michael, there's been a lot of talk about Steve Bannon now, obviously, one of Trump's top White House strategists and who he is. He has not been in the public, but people do know about the Breitbart website he had ran.

So he has described himself now and how he sees the country. He gave an interview to "The Wall Street Journal." And I just want to read a little portion of this. "I'm an economic nationalist. I'm an America-first guy, and I have admired national movements throughout the world, have said repeatedly strong nations make great neighbors. I've also said repeatedly that the ethno-nationalist movement prominent in Europe will change over time. I've never been a supporter of ethno-nationalism."

What does all that mean, Michael?

SMERCONISH: Well, I thought the interview was really insightful, and I was glad that he gave someone access. Because as he points out, he wasn't on television for the duration of the campaign, ever since coming aboard in August. And we're all trying to read the tea leaves and to know, really, what's running through his head.

[07:25:14] And Alisyn, I've taken note of the fact people are trying to hold him accountable for a lot of words and a lot of headlines that aren't his. So you know, to hear what's on his mind...

CAMEROTA: But I mean, they were Breitbart. If he was running Breitbart, were -- wasn't he responsible for the content?

SMERCONISH: I don't think you can hold him accountable for everything that was put on that website. Look, I'm not a defender of the tone of that website. I think that it leads to the coarsening of the language.

But David Horowitz, for example, you know, wrote that headline pertaining to Bill Kristol. I don't think that it's fair to hold Steve Bannon accountable for what David Horowitz says were "my words."

But here's my take away from the interview. He sounds very establishment-like. You know, read the totality of that interview, and you hear a guy who says, "Can I work with Paul Ryan to advance Donald Trump's agenda?" Quote, "Oh, yes." He speaks about needing to maintain the coalition that he's established with Reince Priebus and the RNC.

And I thought, boy, this is not the guy any longer from the outside throwing stones toward the establishment.

CUOMO: Right.

SMERCONISH: Very quickly, he's a part of the process now.

CUOMO: I mean, just a point of clarification. As you well know, Michael, Breitbart is not just about tone. OK? I mean, that is an agenda machine that ignores fact and creates a lot of scurrilous stories and narratives. It's not just about tone.

But, when it comes to Bannon, how do you explain, if all of this is neutral and a lot of talk and labels, then why are all these white nationalist types trying to get into the administration and getting access and celebrating Trump's victory? You know what I mean? If it's just words, if it doesn't reverberate, why do you have people who are anti-diversity and trying to build up white America's reach and control over everything, again. Why is that happening if there's no connection between the two?

SMERCONISH: I am the last guy who would defend any of that business. I think the reality is that they were willing to accept the support when they needed every one of those votes. But, Chris, I'd be shocked if anyone who had those credentials is given a seat at the table in this administration. I mean thus far, you've got the hardliners...

CUOMO: Bannon was just given a seat at the table. Bannon was just given a seat at the table.

SMERCONISH: What are the -- what are the Bannon words for which we ought to hold him accountable? I mean, are we going to hold him accountable because of a statement that was made by the ex-wife in the course of a domestic disturbance. I mean, Alan Dershowitz was on my program...

CAMEROTA: No. I mean, he has -- agreed.

SMERCONISH: ... this weekend.

CUOMO: Yes? Go ahead.

CAMEROTA: Well, he said, and I'll just tell you some of his words. He wants to destroy the state. That was a quote from a previous article. And you know, you heard him. He doesn't believe in the ethno-nationalism. That's -- that's what he's using. That's the term he's using for diversity. CUOMO: He believes in the use of division. You know, he believes,

you know, he believes in these tactics that were very effective for Trump. Just because something is effective doesn't mean it's good.

Look, I get that you don't want to hold him accountable for everything that's said in a place that he controls. But there seems to be an odd correlation if not causation here, Michael.

SMERCONISH: There's no doubt about that. I can see the Breitbart headline you're creating: "Smerconish Defends Bannon." No, I'm not defending Bannon. I'm saying I want to hold Bannon accountable for Bannon's conduct and Bannon's words.

CUOMO: Or probably "Cuomo Hates Whites," is probably the headline they'd come up with.

SMERCONISH: "And Camerota Agrees."

CAMEROTA: Yes.

SMERCONISH: I lost my train of thought. I don't even know what I was about to say.

CAMEROTA: I have a segue for you. I have a segue for you. What happened at "Hamilton" this weekend, where the cast after the performance stopped and addressed personally V.P.-elect Mike Pence to tell them that they hope that he would be vice president for everyone. You, I understand, are on Donald Trump's side about this one, saying that it was inappropriate.

SMERCONISH: You know, a decade ago I laid out a lot of money, because I wanted to listen to Roger Waters at Madison Square Garden. And I was there to hear that -- the Pink Floyd founder perform "Comfortably Numb" and "Another Brick in the Wall Part IV."

And, instead, I got a lecture on habeas corpus rights for prisoners at Guantanamo, when I was in a seat probably two miles away from Ground Zero as the crow flies. I'll never forget it. I thought it was so inappropriate. I simply was there to enjoy the music.

And so, yes, I take note of the fact that Pence, Governor Pence says he wasn't offended by it, but as my parents would say, "Time and a place, time and a place, time and a place." I just don't think that was the time and place for him to be lectured by the cast of "Hamilton."

CUOMO: A lot of people feel like it's no longer the time to be polite. And it was after the show, Michael.

SMERCONISH: Come on, man. I think that's really splitting hairs. He was there to enjoy their performance, and look, he'd have had to have been a knucklehead not to take away what the message is of that performance. Wasn't that enough? I'd say so.

CAMEROTA: Michael, we can't wait to see the headlines that come out of this segment. Thank you very much.

CUOMO: "Smerconish Curries Favor."

CAMEROTA: That's not going to be it. Michael, thank you.

CUOMO: That's my headline.

SMERCONISH: Thank you, right.

CAMEROTA: Michael, thank you.