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FBI & CIA Disagree On Russia's Motive For Election Hack; Bipartisan Group Of Senators Call For Russian Hacking Probe; Trump Vs. The Media; Beijing Concerned After Trump Questions One-China Policy. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 12, 2016 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: He has ordered the immediate arrest of the contractor and is setting up a task force to figure out what went wrong.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: President-elect Donald Trump has called the CIA conclusions that Russia possibly affected the outcome of the 2016 presidential election ridiculous, and those working on the transition team are backing their boss up.

Joining us now is Michael Smerconish, host of "SMERCONISH". Michael, you had a contentious debate with the transition team spokesman Sean Spicer this weekend. Here's a taste.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, "SMERCONISH": I need to ask you an additional question.

SEAN SPICER, CHIEF STRATEGIST &COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, RNC: No, but --

SMERCONISH: Speak to the -- wait, wait. I want to address this.

SPICER: That's not true. Michael --

SMERCONISH: I'm also concerned -- come on. I'm being fair to you but I've got to get a word in every once in a while. I'm also troubled by the idea that my president-elect -- he's going to be all of our president -- is already throwing under the bus the intelligence community with whom he's going to have to work on life and death matters. Wasn't that a troubling thing to do at 9:34 last night --

SPICER: No, no.

SMERCONISH: -- in that very --

SPICER: Michael, "The New York Times" in their story said that they based their conclusion on the fact that the RNC was hacked, OK? If the RNC was not hacked then that casts doubt on their conclusions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: All right. So, Michael, let's start at the beginning. In terms of whether or not Russia was involved in the hacking activity in and around the election in this past cycle, the answer seems to be yes by all different aspects of the Intel community. It's the motivation that has them still developing their understanding, right?

SMERCONISH: So it seems that there's uniformity of belief that there was hacking by the Russians that impacted the DNC. I mean, Debbie Wasserman Schultz is out of a job because of this issue. We've all grown tired of reading John Podesta's emails. And so, respectfully, I think that Sean was trying to say yes, but there's a report that the RNC was hacked. I know, to a certainty, that the RNC was not hacked therefore we're casting doubt on all of this information. And it was me saying let's get to the bottom of it.

I mean, what I'm most troubled by, Chris, is the idea that now partisanship is trumping patriotism. What happened to the idea that we would unite against a common enemy and that we would be Americans first and Republicans, Democrats, and Independents second?

CUOMO: Right.

SMERCONISH: That's what has me frustrated.

CAMEROTA: Yes, this should be a bipartisan issue, no doubt. But basically, he's saying our software shows that the RNC computers weren't hacked. And the CIA is saying their malware, or whatever you call it, shows fingerprints in the RNC's computers, just like the DNC's from Russia. So, I mean, I guess it's like who are you going to with, but shouldn't we go with our 17 intelligence agencies? They do this for a living.

SMERCONISH: We should. And secondly, Alisyn, what he was also saying is where's the proof that it altered the outcome and, frankly, I wish I'd had a better answer for him on Saturday. It would have been something like this. Hey, Sean, despite the release of that statement on Friday night at 9:30 where you were bragging of the enormity of this victory, Hillary maintains a roughly three-million-vote popular advantage and 80,000 votes in three swing states determine the Electoral College.

And let me be clear. I'm not somebody sitting here hoping for, wishing that the outcome is altered. I just want to get to the bottom of all of this. And I think that what's driving the president-elect is that he thinks that all this conversation diminishes the nature and size of his victory and that he probably thinks it calls attention to the fact that she won the popular vote and his margin, historically speaking, was actually quite thin.

CUOMO: Right. That's why he says -- the president-elect is very careful to use the word "landslide" when talking about his victory. Other than George W. Bush, you know, Carter all the way through to Obama had much bigger electoral majorities than Trump did, so it's clear this is a sensitivity. But the problem you have is that their righteous purpose of saying don't let Hillary off. She lost this election. The Russians didn't win it for her, she lost it. That's a fair point to make, Michael, it's just that in undermining the intelligence about the Russians we are now somewhat missing the forest for the trees.

SMERCONISH: But, as you know, Chris, the hawks have long resided in the GOP and that's not necessarily a bad thing. But it is stunning to me that those who would normally be thumping their chests -- you know, the Cold War relic-types thumping their chests against Putin and Russia and vestiges of the old Soviet Union -- are stunningly silent in this case.

CUOMO: Well, not McCain.

SMERCONISH: That tells me they're Republicans first.

CUOMO: Not McCain.

SMERCONISH: John McCain's an exception. He's always been a maverick. I applaud John McCain and I think that McCain has the right idea in this. And let's not fool one another. John McCain, of course, is thinking of that comment about that Donald Trump respects the ones who didn't get caught, so there's a lot going on here, I'm sure.

[07:35:05] CAMEROTA: Yes, but Michael --

SMERCONISH: I don't want to go into any of that. Let's just get to the bottom of all of this.

CAMEROTA: Yes. But, Michael, one more point on this and that is that what Donald Trump and his team seem to be saying is that the intelligence community failed us in the run-up to the Iraq War and they made some catastrophic miscalculations and got it wrong. So it sounds to me like they're saying so now we can't trust them. Is that a fair logicleap?

SMERCONISH: I think it's an unfair logic leap. I'd be curious to know who, from 13 years ago that played a role relative to WMD, had a direct role in coming out with this prognostication about Russian hack in the election. I'll bet nobody who was involved in that was involved in this.

But now, I want to go back to where we were a week ago because a week ago you said to me are you troubled by the idea that he's not getting daily briefing? And I said well, I'm not troubled but if by Inauguration Day that's the case, I'll be alarmed. Now we know that the guy who wants to throw the intelligence community under the bus says it's not necessary for him to be briefed on a daily basis and that his posture with regard to the intelligence community is hey, you briefed me once, now tell me when things change. Put that all together and now it really is alarming.

CUOMO: I'll tell you, something that we see here, it's interesting. You're saying they're GOP first. With the leadership, I think you're seeing some of that but I wonder, Michael, if you're not seeing that from Trump's recalcitrant on this issue of whether Russia should be criticized for what they did, he is kind of emboldening this new alliance among Republicans and Democrats.

You see even a young buck Jim Himes coming in saying yes, I'm going to propose that Congress take back its war powers and its declaration of war powers, and more Republicans are working with Democrats to assert congressional authority, you know, and fight back the executive ones again. I wonder if Trump isn't feeding this new bipartisan alliance against the executive, which is going to wind up being him.

SMERCONISH: Well, I think it puts added pressure on this secretary of state pick and you've been talking about Rex Tillerson this morning. How about John Bolton as the number two? Bolton, who is now -- who is now positing the idea that maybe this Russian hack was a false flag --

CUOMO: Yes.

SMERCONISH: -- by the Obama administration. I mean -- so, put Bolton together with Tillerson and Trump saying we're not going to trust the intelligence, wow, it is a whole new day.

CAMEROTA: Michael, we always love when you work the show's name into --

CUOMO: I know.

CAMEROTA: -- your conclusion.

CUOMO: That is money.

CAMEROTA: That is some great synergy.

SMERCONISH: Cuomo told me to do that.

CAMEROTA: That is awesome. Thanks so much, Michael. Great to talk to you. President-elect Trump not just dealing with fallout from reports of Russian interference in the election. China now says they have serious concerns after he's questioned the One-China policy. Is he being dismissive or smart about China? A foreign House Intelligence Committee member weighs in.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:41:23] CAMEROTA: So, you've been hearing us talk about this. There are growing concerns this morning about Russia meddling in the 2016 election. Sources telling CNN that the U.S. Intelligence Committee is increasingly confident that Russia, in fact, intended to help elect Donald Trump.

Let's discuss this and more with former congresswoman Jane Harman, who served nine terms in office and sat on all of the major congressional security committees. She's now president and CEO of the Woodrow Wilson Center. Great to have you here.

JANE HARMAN, DIRECTOR, PRESIDENT & CEO, WOODROW WILSON CENTER: Nice to be back.

CAMEROTA: OK, so you just heard our conversation -- well, let me actually play it for you. This is what Mr. Trump has been saying about why he doesn't necessarily -- do we have about why he isn't trusting the intel, basically? OK, let's play it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: These are very good people that are giving me the briefings. And I say if something should change from this point, immediately call me. I'm available on one minute's notice. I don't have to be told -- you know, I'm like a smart person. I don't have to be told the same thing in the same words every single day for the next eight years. It could be eight years -- but, eight years. I don't need that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: That's why he doesn't need briefings all the time. A separate issue from him saying he does not believe -- he thinks it's ridiculous that the intel agencies have come to the consensus that Russia was involved in the hacking in this election and maybe for previous cycles as well. Do you question the intel?

HARMAN: Not really, and let me explain what my experience is with that. I was the senior member Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee on 9/11 and I saw after that the intel mess leading up to Iraq. I believe the intelligence -- where they got it wrong, where sources were not corroborated, where some material was cherry picked. And where we painted a picture which I believed that Saddam Hussein was going to use weapons of mass destruction on his people and us -- chemical weapons.

CAMEROTA: OK.

HARMAN: I voted for the war.

CAMEROTA: So now, Donald Trump --

HARMAN: I said after that --

CAMEROTA: -- is using that moment to say that's why we can't trust them now.

HARMAN: Right. Well, I --

CAMEROTA: Where is he wrong?

HARMAN: That moment caused many of us in Congress, not just me, to reform the way we do intelligence estimates. And in 2004, a law passed that created the director of National Intelligence, who's the commander across 16 intel agencies, and the way we do intelligence products is much different and very accurate. We vet all of our sources. We have outside red teams critiquing what the conclusions are.

I've read many of those products. I don't read them now. I'm no longer working on the Hill, but I do have top security clearance. I have been an adviser to the CIA and the DNI on the advisory committee since I left -- no longer right now. But the way this is done is extremely carefully and I have high confidence that their high confidence is accurate. CAMEROTA: So it has changed and that is something that Donald Trump doesn't seem to know. He is going back to 2004 saying they got it wrong then, they can't be trusted now. And you're here to say no, it is actually quite different. So --

HARMAN: And let me just add one more thing. You really -- it takes a while to understand intel speak to get the language, to know what the briefers are really saying. He's getting higher-level briefings than I ever got but it took me a couple of years and I was very serious about it.

So I would say getting regular intel briefings, you're really not hearing the same thing, you're hearing shades of difference. And this is not like doing a business deal. I mean, this is keeping a country safe. And it is absolutely critical, especially if you have any doubts that the briefing is accurate, that you go underneath it and ask what the sources are and get some other people in the room and ask broader questions.

[07:45:04] CAMEROTA: I was wondering about that because when he -- what it sounds like he's saying is they're repetitive. I hear the same thing every day. I don't need to hear it every day. When something changes they'll let me know.

CUOMO: Well, but we have different issues, you know. We have what the president-elect believes he needs on a daily basis to be up to speed, but we also have what is motivating his pushback against an apparent consensus and it seems to be fairly obvious, Jane, which is politics. He thinks that saying that Russia was involved in the election means that they were helping him, which means his victory wasn't legitimate. That's what this seems to be about.

HARMAN: Well, putting the political motive aside and I had a non- partisan think tank, let's think about Russia's involvement on behalf of Democrats or Republicans over three election cycles. President Obama has ordered an investigation going back to 2008, which was his first election. Russia has also, everybody thinks, intervened in elections in other places -- Montenegro, Ukraine, and places in Europe. Germany -- Germany's about to have another election -- critical election.

If this has been going on for a while and I think we understand attribution and my -- attribution of who did this, and I think we have some more recent corroboration about the attribution. So I don't think there's any doubt that Russia's been doing this and it's got to stop now. If President-elect Trump wants a different relationship with Russia -- and I applaud him for wanting that -- I think talking to President Putin is the right thing to do. It's got to be on real terms.

We have to know what Putin's been up to in order for him to respect us. In order for us to move forward. For example, on an international agreement on cyber norms, that would be a very important thing and China has to be part of that, too. But, Russia has very sophisticated tradecraft and there's no reason to believe that junior hackers in Russia are acting alone. CAMEROTA: So what do you suggest President-elect Trump say to Russia about this?

HARMAN: Well, I suggest, first, we know all the facts and we now have a bipartisan investigation starting in the Senate. Kudos to John McCain and Lindsey Graham for being gutsy and joining with Democrats to do that. But I think the Obama investigation, not by Obama but by qualified intelligence professionals, will yield information that should be the basis of a future conversation between Trump and Putin.

CAMEROTA: Former congresswoman Jane Harman, thanks so much for sharing your information. That was really helpful.

HARMAN: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right. A phrase that we keep hearing and the president- elect loves to use it is "fake news". Now, the president-elect is using it against the media and it is a new tool for critics that he uses. We're going to have experts break down Mr. Trump's latest battle with the media and what is developing is a very toxic situation for the country -- forward.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:51:40] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The one thing we have done, we have exposed the credibility of the press. They have the lowest credibility of anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: We're in good company because Clinton and Trump were the two lowest rated nominees ever in terms of credibility, so everybody's taking a beating these days. You saw the president-elect there and there's no question what his M.O. is. He likes to bash the media. Mr. Trump's comments come as he dismisses reports that Russia meddled in the U.S. election. Remember, there is consensus in the intelligence community that Russia was involved. They have briefed Congress members on both sides of the aisle, none of whom are questioning the intelligence, just Donald Trump and his people.

Let's discuss the dynamic at play. We have CNN senior media correspondent Brian Stelter and CNN media analyst Bill Carter. Bill, the animosity between the politicians and the media is not new.

BILL CARTER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: Not at all.

CUOMO: The degree and the agenda with Trump seems to be new.

CARTER: Yes.

CUOMO: Where do you see this going?

CARTER: I see it getting worse. I see it only ratcheting up because I think the media is now in a unique position of being the only power base not controlled by Republicans. And they have to -- they were always adversarial with the president. They are in a particularly difficult position now. They have to challenge this president and he's going to push back on every front.

He's going to say they're not credible. He's going to challenge everything they report. And there's a flood of fake news out there they have to kind of wade their way through, so it's an incredible challenge. I think the hostility is different from previous because it's adversarial, yes, but this is real hostility. Honest to God hostility.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIAL CORRESPONDENT: The effect of his messages is to delegitimize journalism among a sizeable portion of the American public. He and others like him scorch the ground, they scorch the earth where quality journalism can grow and can thrive and that's why I think so many journalists are on guard right now.

I was at a journalism conference over the weekend. There was deep- seated concern both about the practical steps the Trump administration could take against the press, but then about this philosophical issue of a deepening divide -- a deepening credibility crisis.

CAMEROTA: And how much responsibility do we need to take that we got the election -- I say we, but the media as a whole -- pollsters --

STELTER: It gave people the wrong impression about the election before Election Day.

CAMEROTA: Right. So does that -- what does that mean? Are we credible? Do we have to fix things? How do we prove to people that we are trying to get the facts and get it right?

STELTER: I think there's been some fessing up of self-inflicted wounds and there should continue to be. Trust is not -- you only either have trust or not have trust. It is accumulated over years and it is eroded over years, so we need to gradually continue to gain trust back.

CARTER: But you can't be afraid. You can't back off. You can't say well, I'm nervous now and I'm going to be seen as partisan. You know, what you should be partisan about is the best interest of the United States.

CAMEROTA: Yes, you've got to call it out.

CARTER: That is what you should be partisan about.

CAMEROTA: You still have to call it out when you see hypocrisy or you see the facts not adding up, or you see like -- you have to. That's our job.

CARTER: Yes.

STELTER: Standing with truth but, right now, truth is so confusing, right? We've got these alternate realities. It's like, Cuomo, you've been all morning trying to reestablish the reality here about this Russia situation. CUOMO: Yes.

STELTER: It gets muddy so quickly and so easily.

CUOMO: I also think that look, you know, these tactics work both ways and I don't mean that in a retribution way by the media to Trump. The media does what it does and what people need to understand and misperceive all the time is we are not a monolith. The idea that the media --

[07:55:02] CARTER: Right, of course.

CUOMO: -- is a joke. I've never seen a group of people who like each other less than the media. It's a totally non-cohesive group.

CAMEROTA: Now, just -- that's not true.

CUOMO: When's the last time the media wrote something good about you? We don't complement each other very often.

CAMEROTA: What?

CARTER: True.

CUOMO: This is a competitive place --

CARTER: Yes.

CUOMO: -- and people get that. You've got to pick your own silo and that's fine. That's how we work together.

CAMEROTA: I know.

STELTER: Then I would suggest --

CUOMO: But, here's what I'm saying, is that Trump's tactic --

CARTER: Yes.

CUOMO: What he's doing right now is he's saying Russia being involved is bad for me politically.

CARTER: Right.

CUOMO: I don't know that that's true, by the way, but he believes it --

CARTER: Yes.

CUOMO: -- demonstrably. That's why he's saying things like the Democrats don't like my landslide victory.

CARTER: Yes.

CUOMO: It is not a landslide. He lost the popular vote and his margin in the Electoral College, except for George W. Bush, is the lowest one we've seen since Carter.

CARTER: Right.

CUOMO: However, what is he doing? He's galvanizing opposition in places that he doesn't need it. Republicans are working with Democrats --

CARTER: Yes.

CUOMO: -- against a unified enemy of Russia, right, on this fact- finding purpose. They're going to find what the intel community found, though, which is if Russia was involved --

CARTER: Right.

CUOMO: -- and then Trump is the odd man out.

CARTER: If they have the guts to step up and do an investigation which is, obviously, required in this case. How can you oppose that? There's enough smoke here where you'd have to say let's get to the bottom of it. This is a serious -- alarm bells should be going off. If the Russians are messing with our elections everybody should be concerned. It should not be a partisan issue.

CAMEROTA: You know, one of the things that Trump and his team have fastened is that look at these unnamed sources. That's what Sean Spicer said. Look at this article about Russian meddling but it's citing all sorts of anonymous sources. Is that bad? Should we stop using unnamed sources? Does that call into question the --

CUOMO: You won't be able to report anything.

CAMEROTA: I know that. I mean --

STELTER: It does -- it does -- it does further challenge our credibility. It requires us to try to explain to the audience why these sources can't speak on the record. And, especially, if you're in the CIA or close to the CIA you simply cannot speak on the record, but we've got to explain that to people more clearly. Think about the consequences of speaking on the record. One of the fears of this administration, as of prior administrations, further leaked investigations, further prosecutions of whistleblowers.

But as David Sanger of "The New York Times" said to me over the weekend, the other flipside of that is maybe even more sources are going to be motivated to speak out. If they feel their conclusions are not being taken seriously by the President of the United States they may be more motivated to use the press to communicate. Unfortunately --

CARTER: This could be a tipping point. He's attacked the press so much it could be a tipping point. His people are going to be for him but at some point, if you go overboard you start to lose and it could go all the other way.

CUOMO: That's the concern about this. You have a no-brainer for the intel community. I'm not saying why Russia did this. That's going to be fairly tough to ascertain --

CARTER: Right.

CUOMO: -- according to my own sources, but that they were involved is a no-brainer for them. They came out with this back in October.

CARTER: Right.

CUOMO: It was ignored because of what was going on in the maelstrom of the election.

CARTER: This is a government, Chris, who systemically cheated in the Olympics. You think they're not going to attempt to fool around with this contest? This is what they do.

STELTER: You're saying the headlines should be does Russia cheat at everything?

CARTER: Exactly.

STELTER: I mean, that's the headline of the day.

CARTER: Right.

CAMEROTA: Bill, Brian, thank you very much.

STELTER: Thanks.

CUOMO: So what do you think about this or, most importantly, what do you think happens next? What's healthy for the country, what isn't? Tweet us @NewDay, post your comment at Facebook.com/NewDay. There is a lot of news. Let's get right to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think it's ridiculous. I think it's just another excuse. I don't believe it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we do know is that Russia hacked us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have not seen a single thing.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I'm going after Russia every way you can go after Russia.

CUOMO: Conflicting information between the CIA and the FBI.

TRUMP: Take a look. They're not sure. They're fighting among themselves.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: You can't make this issue partisan, it's too important.

TRUMP: I fully understand the One-China policy but I don't want China dictating to me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What he's doing is using the bully pulpit to pressure China on diplomatic issues.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to make sure that the secretary of state will represent U.S. interests.

TRUMP: Well, Bob Corker and Mitt Romney, these are all very different types of people but when you ask me about Rex, I mean, he's a world- class player.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Monday, December 12th, 8:00 in the East. Up first, President-elect Donald Trump rejecting the CIA's claim that Russia influenced the U.S. election in his favor. He calls that assessment "ridiculous". Now, a group of key lawmakers planning a bipartisan investigation.

CUOMO: Trump is also angering China but this is a very different set of politics at play. He is refusing to apologize for speaking directly to Taiwan's new leader while questioning why the U.S. even needs to adhere to a One-China policy. Officials in Beijing firing back in an editorial in a mouthpiece media organization, saying that Trump is operating with the intelligence of an ignorant child.

Just 39 days to go before the inauguration. We have every angle covered. Let's start with Jason Carroll live from Trump Tower in Manhattan. Good morning, Jason.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And good morning to you, Chris. You know, the Chinese government has made it very clear that the One-China policy is basically the bedrock between the U.S. and the United States (sic). The president-elect, for his part, in a separate issue also challenging U.S. intelligence showing that Russia was behind the hacking during the election.