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DOJ to Allow Congress to View Classified Docs on Russia Probe. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired May 22, 2018 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: The Department of Justice is required to follow the law, not the bidding of the president, particularly when they're investigating him.

[07:00:29] REP. DEVIN NUNES (R-CA), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: There's nothing to see here. Show us the documents. We're not going to go to another meeting where we don't get documents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is outrageous that they are demanding that confidential information be shared.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It really looks like a lot like there is coordination between the White House and some of his allies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president has every right to find out what's going on here.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA), RANKING MEMBER, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: This is a defense strategy to put the government on trial.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: President Trump meeting with South Korea's president amid growing doubts over the summit with Kim Jong- un.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of the cheery optimism that we were feeling has dissipated as North Korea continues to criticize South Korea.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clearly, the president still willing to walk away.

MIKE PENCE (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, there's no question.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. The Justice Department and the FBI are agreeing to share highly-classified information related to the Russia investigation with lawmakers. Here come the leaks.

And this is all about this meeting with the president, who demanded details about a confidential FBI source that he claims, without any real proof, that this was proof of spying on his campaign for political purposes.

White House chief of staff John Kelly will set up a meeting for congressional leaders to review the classified materials. So, what will the Justice Department be showing, and what will this mean going forward?

CAMEROTA: And it's a big day ahead for the president. He hosts South Korea President Moon to discuss details of the negotiations with Kim Jong-un. But three weeks before the North Korean summit is supposed to happen, it may now be in question.

So we begin our coverage with CNN's Kaitlan Collins. She is live at the White House. What's the latest there, Kaitlan?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, for now, the conflict between the president and the Department of Justice seems to have diffused temporarily, at least.

That comes 24 hours after we were bracing for a showdown after the president demanded that the Department of Justice investigate the investigators of the Russia probe. And now, after a meeting with top law-enforcement officials here at the White House, the sides seem to have come to an agreement but now, Alisyn, the question is who got the upper hand?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS (voice-over): The White House brokering an agreement, announcing that top FBI and Justice Department officials have agreed to meet with congressional leaders to review highly-classified information about the handling of the Russia probe.

The detente coming after President Trump met with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, FBI Director Christopher Wray and the director of national intelligence, Dan Coats, on Monday. The development coming one day after President Trump demanded an investigation into alleged infiltration or surveillance of his campaign, though the White House says this meeting was set up in advance.

The Justice Department later asking its inspector general to investigate the president's concerns.

PENCE: We're very confident that, as the inspector general has been doing their work, looking at the conduct of the FBI during that period, that by adding their focus to this, that we'll get to the bottom of it, because the American people have a right to know.

COLLINS: Press secretary Sarah Sanders noting that chief of staff John Kelly will immediately set up the meeting with congressional leaders, though it remains unclear who will be invited and what information will be shared.

The Justice Department has resisted turning over classified material subpoenaed by House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes about the early steps of the Russia investigation and a confidential source who spoke with at least three Trump campaign officials in 2016.

CHRISTOPHER WRAY, FBI DIRECTOR: The day that we can't protect human sources is the day the American people start becoming less safe.

COLLINS: The ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee telling reporters he's concerned the DOJ may have capitulated and expressing concern about the White House's involvement in that meeting.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA), RANKING MEMBER, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: This cannot be a conduit to supply investigatory materials to the Trump legal defense team. That would be a terrible abuse of power.

COLLINS: Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer stressing that if the meeting does occur, quote, "It must be bipartisan in order to serve as a check on the disturbing tendency of the president's allies to distort facts and undermine the investigation and the people conducting it."

Close Trump ally Republican Mark Meadows calling the inspector general review a step in the right direction, but warning that the Justice Department's "attempt to circumvent this responsibility won't go unnoticed."

Nunes hasn't commented about the proposed meeting, but he said on Sunday that he won't meet with the Justice Department until he gets information about the confidential source.

[07:05:09] REP. DEVIN NUNES (R-CA), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: We're not going to go to another meeting where we don't get documents.

COLLINS: President Trump praising Nunes at the CIA Monday.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A very courageous man, he's courageous, Congressman Devin Nunes. Thank you very much, Devin, for being here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, Chris and Alisyn, there is a lot to unpack there, but what's at the root of all of this is a political fight over the Russia investigation and the president now trying to undermine that investigation by questioning the credibility of the investigators.

All of that is going on as the president is scheduled to meet with the South Korean president here at the White House today for about two hours. That comes as there is an increasing amount of concern inside this White House that the potential for that historic summit in Singapore with Kim Jong-un is dwindling.

CUOMO: All right, Kaitlan. Thank you.

Let's bring in the panel to discuss the issues. CNN political analyst John Avlon, CNN national security commentator and former chairman of the House Intel Committee Mike Rogers.

Mike Rogers, good to see you.

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Great to see you. I just want to go back to love is love from Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: We love love. We love love.

ROGERS: We love love.

CAMEROTA: I am so loved up, Mike, from the royal wedding that I'm going to continue saying that until it wears off, which might be --

ROGERS: I think you should run down to Congress right now and offer your "Love is love and I love love." I think this will solve a lot of problems.

CAMEROTA: OK.

ROGERS: This is going to be great.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

CUOMO: Go ahead. In the meantime, on the opposite end of the emotional spectrum --

ROGERS: I'm tearing up. I can't help it.

CUOMO: I just believe we have a little bit of a different problem right now, which is what's about to happen here has to be a problem to you. What do you see as the potential concerns, once this egg is broken and the politicians go in there and start asking the FBI what they did and calling them spies and calling out their methods? And we know why they're doing it, Mike. This isn't in the interest of democracy. This is to protect the president.

ROGERS: Yes. I'm very concerned about the political element reviewing source materials, especially for individuals who probably don't know how to handle that information. I would guarantee you that the leak is -- is going to be on.

The best solution here is to let Michael Horowitz, who's already demonstrated that he can do a fair --

CUOMO: The inspector general.

ROGERS: The inspector general.

CUOMO: Appointed under Obama.

ROGERS: Yes, and you know, this is the guy that came out and said McCabe lied and actually referred him for criminal charges. That's serious.

And by the way, if you're a defense attorney, that's mana from heaven, because he's one of the guys that signed the affidavit for the search warrant into the certain aspects of the Trump campaign. So all of that is -- for the defense is great. And it tells you that he can be fair and balanced in his investigation.

What I worry here is people are going to see what they want to see in that information, and then they're going to take that; and it's going to get out in a matter of, well, probably seconds. And people are going to start putting their spin on it.

None of that is healthy, not only for the function of the FBI, but really, this separation of powers. That to me is really, really important here. And they ought to work to protect it. I'm not sure this is the way to do it.

CAMEROTA: Mike, I just want to stick with you for one second, because you're the perfect guest. Because you were the chair of the House Intel, which is what Devin Nunes is, and this involves the House Intel Committee and an FBI special agent for many years.

OK, so you are the perfect nexus for this story. Explain to me how the FBI using a confidential source to investigate a crime is spying? How can they even make that leap of logic?

ROGERS: Yes. So here is where the -- it could be a problem for the FBI. So, the source -- and again, this is all from public reporting -- but if the source actually paid money, and that money had some origin from the bureau and was tasked, meaning that an FBI agent, probably his handler, said, "I need you to go to these people and ask them these questions," that is a very different scenario than "I'm a guy that stumbles around. I hear something and I go, 'Ooh,' I go pick up the phone and go, 'Hey, guys. You're not going to believe what I just heard. And you need to know this.'" That is -- doesn't sound like a lot, but that is a significant difference.

And I think what the Trump administration is trying to say here is he was tasked to go meet these people and elicit information.

CUOMO: You call that spying?

ROGERS: I mean, I wouldn't call it spying. I do think it raises some questions, if you're tasking someone in a political campaign. That is really, really sensitive stuff.

CAMEROTA: Because they are -- but just to be clear, because they already had a notion that crimes were being committed, thanks to George Papadopoulos telling an Australian diplomat who then reported it to the FBI. They already were worried that there was some sort of Russian influence and crime being committed. Isn't this the same as using a source to go into, I don't know, MS-13 and see what kind of crimes were going on.

ROGERS: You know, you're right. And here's another kind of subtle -- the difference in all of this matters. That's why I worry that somebody just looking at the documents is going to run out with their hair on fire.

[07:10:09] But if one of those people -- remember, one of those individuals, Carter Page, was already under suspicion of working with the Russians prior to the campaign at all. And so if you had a source and you're working a case to try to say, is this guy under the influence of Russian intelligence officials, and doing some work for them back in the United States, that's a problem.

If they had somebody who could brush up against that person and find out what his activities were related to that particular crime, then that's not spying, and it's not spying on the Trump campaign.

CUOMO: Context is going to be very important here. There's no question.

ROGERS: Yes. Huge.

CUOMO: On two levels. Obviously, the Trump campaign is an MS-13. There will be very different things.

CAMEROTA: No, I'm talking about when a crime is -- when you have a reason to believe a crime is being committed, the FBI sends agents undercover to try to see if a crime is being committed.

CUOMO: They do it different ways. And that's something you're going to learn more about here. So the context matters of how it was conducted.

Listen to Sam Clovis, who was a Trump campaign official who talked with this confidential source. This is how he described the experience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM CLOVIS, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN OFFICIAL: The meeting was very high-level. It was like two faculty members sitting down in the faculty lounge talking about research. And there was no indication or no inclination that this was anything other than just wanting to offer up his help to the campaign if I needed it. It was not anything other than him talking about the research that he had done on China. And that was essentially what the discussion was about. And we already had a lot of China people involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Now, we don't know who else this confidential source spoke to, but this is bad evidence for the defense, to use Mike's analogy for the Trump folk.

ROGERS: Right.

CUOMO: This is their guy on Monday describing the experience. This is not helpful to them in painting this dark picture of someone manipulating their folks.

AVLON: No. This does not paint a picture of a conspiracy, which is what they're trying to achieve. Sam Clovis not sticking to the script there.

But the reason this larger showdown matters so much, isn't only because this kind of information depends on context, as you say, and perspective but also sort of professionalism. And that's what I think we've got such a big difference between, unfortunately, the Devin Nunes-led House Intelligence Committee and the House Intelligence Committee that Mike Rogers led.

The partisanship has seeped in further. There is, unfortunately, every reason to believe there won't only be leaks but potentially backchanneling to the White House, as Devin Nunes has been accused of before in the context of this investigation.

And it undercuts not only the separation of powers between Congress and the president, but also it's a direct assault on the independence of the Justice Department and the prosecutorials. And if the Trump team's tactic, strategy is to investigate the investigators, this further not only puts that assault, that independence under assault, but has a toxic partisanship that's going to infuse this entire process even further and get us further from the simple search for truth that it should be.

CAMEROTA: You know, Mike, they are accusing the FBI of having done things for political purpose, but we know the Trump administration is using some of this for political purposes, because they sent out an e- mail for support or financial support. They've seized upon this.

The wording is in all caps. This could be the greatest political scandal in American history. The president in an e-mail says, "I hereby DEMAND" -- that's very official language -- "that the Department of Justice investigate whether Obama's FBI and DOJ infiltrated or surveilled our campaign for political purposes. They're trying to fundraise off of this.

ROGERS: Uh-huh. Yes. No, I mean, "You should be outraged and send me 25 bucks." That's kind of what that's all about.

Two things here that struck me. And even in Sam Clovis who I knew and once worked with the Trump transition. He basically laid out a case where somebody who had been very active in presidential campaigns was looking to get engaged in a foreign policy in a presidential campaign. I think that's pretty damning to this notion that there's some greater conspiracy that he was tasked to be there. And I think that will make it more difficult for, I think, the Trump people to say that, hey, he was -- he was out there soliciting information.

He may have been a source on other things. As I said, he may have been tasked to talk to Carter Page because of his Russian connections, or he may have just reached out to these people saying, "Hey, I've been -- I have a lot of experience in presidential campaigns, worked at the White House, worked in the United States Senate and, by the way, I can offer you a lot of help on foreign -- foreign affairs and international relationships. You know, that's the problem you're going to run into this whole thing.

And I would say this, Alisyn. Both of those sides, both teams have been out there, Republicans and Democrats, have been out trying to raise money on this.

CUOMO: Sure. ROGERS: No one is not free of that particular -- you know, be

outraged. Send me your money.

[07:15:05] CUOMO: They're so desperate for money, Mike, that they put us reporters on their lists. I can't tell you how many Democrat and Trump solicitations I get, asking me for money with these ridiculous pitches. And they're putting us on the list.

AVLON: But it's information. It kind of gives up the vote.

ROGERS: You had to stop yourself midway from writing the check?

CUOMO: The emotional pull is impressive.

AVLON: But the connection between fearmongering and fundraising is unfortunately fundamental in this time we're in. And it really does expose the tactics and the fact this isn't about a principled outrage. In many cases it's simply playing to the base and plying them for cash.

CUOMO: They better change their description, because you know, somebody who's creating this rhetoric is being too accurate. They're saying you spied on us for political purposes. Which is what a lawyer would think about. Their problem is it wasn't for political purposes. They spied on you, because you were open for business with the Russians. And they were told that, and they saw evidence of it and they started to look. That's the concern with this kind of narrative. It's going to blow back in their face.

CAMEROTA: All right. On that note, Mike, John, thank you very much.

ROGERS: Love is love, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Thank you. Thank you. We still feel that way even after this segment.

Another meeting involving Donald Trump Jr. ahead of the 2016 campaign is now under the microscope. This is different than the meeting with the Russians in Trump Tower. Did House investigators who interviewed the president's son months ago know about this discussion with an envoy for Gulf princes? We ask a member of the House Intel Committee, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:20:50] DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And a very courageous man, he's courageous, Congressman Devin Nunes. Thank you very much, Devin, for being here. Appreciate it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: That was President Trump praising Congressman Devin Nunes. Nunes is expected to be one of the lawmakers who will see highly- classified information from the Department of Justice and the FBI that he's been clamoring for, but it's still unknown what that information will include.

So joining us now to discuss all of this is Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut. Good morning, Congressman.

REP. JIM HIMES (D), CONNECTICUT: Good morning, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Are you comfortable with Devin Nunes seeing highly- classified information from the FBI and DOJ?

HIMES: Of course, I'm not. Nobody should be. Right? Devin Nunes, for a year now, has acted as the defense attorney for President Donald Trump. He's thrown every variety of spaghetti on the wall, and it goes back to trying to help the president prove that Obama wiretapped him in Trump Tower, to the unmasking scandal, to the Steele dossier being the start of the investigation. All of that stuff turned out to be 100 percent false.

What's scary about this, Alisyn, is first of all -- well, most importantly, we're talking about sources here, right? So today in my home state of Connecticut, there are law enforcement people at the FBI who are going to drug gangs, and they're trying to get people to be informants. And they're telling those people, "Look, we might pay you. You know, you're going to do the right thing. We will protect your identity."

And of course, they're CIA officers all over the world, in places like Baghdad, going around saying, you know, helping keep us safe by recruiting sources.

What Devin Nunes is doing and what a couple of my Republicans are doing is they are sending a signal around the world that some quirky, completely factless investigation may cause you as an informant or you as a CIA asset to be exposed. And that is going to make us profoundly less safe abroad and at home.

CAMEROTA: Well, this is exactly the point. Do you see anything strange about the FBI using a confidential source to try to see if there were any crimes being committed in the Trump campaign?

HIMES: Of course not. I mean, look, Mike Rogers, you had him on before, Republican former chairman of the Intelligence Committee, showing huge concern with this.

I sometimes do this mental experiment, Alisyn, where I say, "Let's imagine this crew of Republicans, Devin Nunes and Mark Meadows and Jim Jordan, let's imagine that a President Hillary Clinton or President Barack Obama, that that individual's people had been in Europe, telling people in bars that they were taking information from the Russians, that there was lots of evidence of a meeting between Hillary Clinton's daughter and Russian government people. Not -- they would be pounding the table, not just for the use of informants, but we'd have articles of impeachment before the House today.

So this is just a massive exercise in hypocrisy, and the problem here is that it's a very dangerous one for American national security and for -- and for the rule of law in this country.

CAMEROTA: So what does Devin Nunes want?

HIMES: Devin Nunes for a year now has -- and look, this is not a secret, has acted as the defense for the president of the United States. And it's a terrible thing to see, because it's badly damaged the Intelligence Committee.

I will tell you that there's Republicans on that committee who are no happier than the Democrats are that the chairman of that committee has turned it into the committee to protect the president. That is not what we are supposed to do. And by the way, it ends badly.

Again, you know, take a big step back, Alisyn. Remember, the whole premise that the FBI is somehow prejudiced against Donald Trump. You know, there's an argument to be made that Jim Comey, the head of the FBI, prevented Hillary Clinton from becoming president.

Now, I don't know if that's true or not, but there's a strong argument to be made that when he went out, talking about the investigation into Hillary Clinton twice, not once but twice before the election, he fatally damaged her chances.

At the same time, remember, there is this investigation going on of Donald Trump, which Jim Comey says absolutely nothing about. So the whole premise that this is some deep-state conspiracy against Donald Trump is belied by every single fact from the moment that Jim Comey came out to talk about the Hillary Clinton investigation.

CAMEROTA: OK. Next topic that also includes your House Intel Committee. Three months before the 2016 election, Don Jr. hosted a meeting at Trump Tower. This is different than the meeting with the Russians. OK? We're just learning about this meeting.

[07:25:03] This meeting was arranged by the education secretary, Betsy DeVos's brother, Erik Prince, and it involved an emissary for Saudi Arabian prince and a UAE prince. When Erik Prince testified in front of your committee, he said that he had very little connection to the Trump campaign.

Now that you know about this meeting, was he being truthful?

HIMES: Yes. Exactly one of many questions I have about this meeting. And let's be clear. We don't know exactly what happened in that meeting. We don't know if anything that happened in that meeting was -- was illegal, but it raises all sorts of questions, yes.

You know, Erik Prince -- and you can read the transcript -- this is one of the few transcripts that the Republicans have permitted to be released of my committee's proceedings. And he says, "No, I had negligible contact with the campaign" or no contact. I can't remember quite the language. But yes, there's a very real possibility that he wasn't being straight with Congress.

Look, there's questions about whether this Israeli social media type who was there has connections to Russian oligarchs. I'm interested in why the Emiratis and the Saudis apparently sent representatives to say, "We want to help elect Donald Trump."

We should all scratch our heads around those questions. And it all points to one thing. There are no conclusions, but there are lots of questions. How do you answer questions? With an investigation. And this is why I don't understand the president's attack on this investigation. If he succeeded in closing it down tomorrow, the myriad of questions that are out there would hang over his presidency for as long as it was here.

There's only one way for somebody who's innocent to be proven innocent, which is to let the investigation run its course and, if the facts show that the president and his people did nothing, let the investigation tell the American people that, and we can move on. Instead, Donald Trump is acting like a guy who knows that an investigation is going to uncover some pretty ugly stuff.

CAMEROTA: And very quickly, Congressman, do you have a way to figure out if Erik Prince perjured himself in front of your committee?

HIMES: Well, you know, this isn't a hard thing. Right? I mean, the transcript is there for everybody to review. The -- the participation of Erik Prince in this meeting in Trump Tower will presumably become more clear over time.

But I will tell you that, as long as the Republicans are in charge of the House, without any interest at all in pursuing this, in fact, devoting their resources to ending this investigation, if there was perjury, it will not go punished.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Jim Himes, thank you very much for all the perspective.

HIMES: Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Chris.

CUOMO: All right. So has President Trump's battle with the Justice Department gone too far? Will Republicans stand up to him? A Republican representative who just left office, Charlie Dent, joins us next.