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Kavanaugh Accuser Open to Testifying Under Right Terms; Lawyer: Michael Cohen is Giving Info to Mueller's Investigation. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired September 21, 2018 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have entered negotiations. The chances are much higher that she's going to testify.

[05:59:22] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Professor Ford doesn't want to be questioned by outside counsel. The Senate committee makes the rules. They have bent over backwards.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are intent on getting Judge Kavanaugh onto the Supreme Court come hell or high water.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: To see what's going on is just very, very sad. Why didn't somebody call the FBI 36 years ago?

SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D), RHODE ISLAND: As soon as Democrats get gavels, we're going to get to the bottom of this.

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ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. This is NEW DAY. It is Friday, September 21, 6 a.m. here in New York. And there are new developments in the Kavanaugh Supreme Court confirmation.

Christine Blasey Ford could testify next week, but it will not be on Monday. Ford's lawyers are laying out the terms their client wants before telling her story to senators, even if the FBI does not investigate her claim that Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her when they were both in high school. Kavanaugh categorically denies this accusation.

Among the terms, Ford does not want to be in the same room as Kavanaugh. She wants senators, not lawyers to question her, and she also wants the committee to subpoena other witnesses and to protect her safety.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So the president has been praised for his so-called restraint on this subject. Now whether that was merited or not, now it's over. Overnight, the president launched an attack on Professor Blasey's

credibility, using a refrain often employed to try to taint sexual assault victims. The president of the United States asked, "Why didn't Professor Blasey come forward 36 years ago when she says the assault happened?"

To be clear, there are a myriad reasons assault victims don't come forward. One more important development: a key line of defense for Kavanaugh appears to be developing. It was someone else who attacked Professor Blasey. We're hearing that a lot. We've now heard that from Republican senators, also a conservative ally of Kavanaugh in bizarre detail.

And now also one of the president's closest advisers, Kellyanne Conway, overnight she specifically raised that possibility on CNN. Professor Blasey told the "Washington Post," "No way, I know who attacked me."

Again, to be clear, Kavanaugh denies it. We will speak with Kellyanne Conway live later on NEW DAY, and not for nothing, Michael Cohen is reportedly now talking to the special counsel about Russia. We'll get to that.

First, though, CNN's Abby Phillip live at the White House -- Abby.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John.

Negotiations over a possible Senate testimony by Judge Kavanaugh's accuser are moving forward to morning after yesterday members of the committee staff and representatives for Blasey-Ford conducted a conference call.

Now Ford's attorneys have insisted that she is willing to testify but only under the right terms. They've asked for some concessions from the committee, and the negotiations continue today.

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PHILLIP (voice-over): A lawyer for Judge Brett Kavanaugh's accuser, Christine Blasey Ford, telling the Senate Judiciary Committee that she's open to testifying next week, even if the FBI does not investigate, "Provided that the senators offer terms that are fair and which ensure her safety."

But Ford's attorneys stressing that the scheduled Monday hearing is not possible, proposing Thursday instead, during a conference call with committee aides, Ford's lawyers also requesting that Judge Kavanaugh testify first, and that the committee subpoena other witnesses like Mark Judge, who Ford says was in the room when the alleged assault occurred, a source telling CNN that both of these issues are nonstarters for Republicans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Should Mr. Judge testify?

SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R-IA), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: At this point, we have two people testifying. PHILLIP: Ford's lawyer also insisting that Kavanaugh is never in the

same room as Ford, and voicing opposition to an outside lawyer questioning her rather than the senators themselves.

A source (AUDIO GAP) all-male Republican majority is going to have a female lawyer question Ford. A spokesman for chairman Chuck Grassley telling CNN that he plans to consult with his colleagues and remains committed to providing a fair forum.

The White House releasing a letter from Kavanaugh in which he insists, "I will be there." Kavanaugh denies Ford's accusations.

Meanwhile, President Trump forcefully defending his Supreme Court nominee at a campaign rally.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Brett Kavanaugh is one of the finest human beings you will ever have the privilege of knowing or meeting.

PHILLIP: And after avoiding criticizing Ford, the president launching his first direct attack.

TRUMP: To see what's going on is -- is just very, very sad. You say, "Why didn't somebody call the FBI 36 years ago?" To take a man like

this and besmirch -- now with that being said, let her have her say and let's see how it all works out. But I don't think you can delay it any longer. They've delayed it a week already.

PHILLIP: Counsel to the president, Kellyanne Conway, also hardening her tone against Ford and suggesting it may be a case of mistaken identity.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it possible that they're both right? Is it possible that something terrible happened to her and that Judge Kavanaugh was not there, that he wasn't involved? Is that possible?

PHILLIP: Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse suggesting an investigation into the allegations will happen if Democrats retake the Senate.

WHITEHOUSE: This is such bad practice that, even if they were to ram this guy through, as soon as Democrats get gavels, we're going to want to get to the bottom of this.

PHILLIP: A lot of these details remain up in the air this morning, but it does seem clear that testimony probably won't happen on Monday. And Thursday's date is also uncertain. Tuesday and Wednesday remain a possibility for possible testimony by Ford and Kavanaugh.

[06:05:03] Meanwhile, President Trump is still on the West Coast as of this morning and plans to have a rally in Missouri later today. He plans to also spend the weekend at his golf resort in New Jersey -- Alisyn and John.

CAMEROTA: Abby, thank you very much for all of that background. Let's bring in CNN senior political analyst, John Avlon; former FBI

special agent and CNN legal and national security analyst Asha Rangappa; and associate editor for RealClearPolitics A.B. Stoddard. Great to have all of you here.

So Asha, let's talk about these conditions. OK? Just -- we can put them up again on the screen, that Christine Blasey Ford's attorneys are asking for. They're concerned about her safety and they said that she's been receiving death threats.

They want her questioned by senators, not lawyers. She does not want to be in the same room as Kavanaugh. They want Kavanaugh to testify first.

They want other witnesses, as we know, to be called, including Mark Judge, who Ford says was in the room, and they want the hearing date pushed back after Monday.

The ball is in the Senate Judiciary Committee's court. Is it, do you think, common place that witnesses get to make requests like this and that the committee would accommodate them?

ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I don't know if it's common place, but this is a unique situation. They aren't often, essentially, doing a hearing where they're looking at a sexual misconduct or a sexual assault allegation.

I have actually sat on the Yale's university-wide Committee on Sexual Misconduct, and, you know, they have designed procedures to -- with the help of experts.

So things like not being in the same room as the -- you know, the person that you're accusing is not uncommon. I think here, having Judge Kavanaugh be questioned first, allows -- it -- I think it will make sure that he doesn't kind of accommodate what he says in accordance with her testimony. He's had 10 hours of prep a day this week. So I think -- and she has not -- she has been, you know --

BERMAN: We don't know what she's been doing. We don't know.

RANGAPPA: Yes. Well, she had to leave her house. And has -- you know, so presumably, she hasn't had the same kind.

So I don't know that these are necessarily unreasonable, given the circumstances.

BERMAN: It seems to me, and from our own reporting, we've been told is that the one hard fast demand being put forward by Blasey. She doesn't want to do it on Monday.

And A.B., that seems to be a political play here, to an extent. I mean, first of all, I'm sure she wants the extra preparation. But that to me would be hard for the Senate Judiciary Committee to say "no" to. I think ultimately, they'll give in on Kavanaugh testifying first. Seems that if he is the one who is being accused of something, he's the defense. He should go second. I think they'll reach that conclusion.

But if she says, "I'll do all of these things but just not on Monday," the Republicans are going to look bad if they say no.

A.B. STODDARD, CNN POLITICAL ASSOCIATE EDITOR, REALCLEARPOLITICS: Well, there were reports out last night that the leadership, Senator Mitch McConnell, the majority leader, was hedging. Laura Ingraham, a FOX News Channel host, was saying on Twitter that she was hearing from -- from top sources that he was wavering and considering a delay and that she promised that, in response to that, there would be a base revolt.

And so, if you look at the pressure that someone like Senator Lisa Murkowski is receiving from home-state politicians, urging her in Alaska to vote against Judge -- Judge Kavanaugh. The idea of not accommodating a three-day waiting period just doesn't seem like it's politically viable for Republicans.

I agree with you. I think it's really hard to -- to insist that -- that she come and make her claims after Judge Kavanaugh defends himself. I think that that is not a request that's going to be -- that's going to be permitted.

But I do think that the idea that they don't want to be in the same room together and she needs to have her safety, and that she needs a little more time, in the end, I think it's really likely the pressure is going to be too great on Republicans to deny her this.

CAMEROTA: So John, there's this theory floating around from another classmate, I guess --

BERMAN: It's not just another classmate, though. I mean, it's a U.S. senator, and the president's senior adviser, Kellyanne Conway. This is something that feels organized to me. They're going out there and saying, "Maybe someone else did this."

I mean, I can't imagine it's just an accident that Orrin Hatch said it two days ago and Kellyanne Conway said it last night. And this friend of Brett Kavanaugh posts at length. We're not going to show you what he said, because it's bizarre and grossly irresponsible.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but I mean, to John's point, it does feel like a talking point now. But I think that what they are saying is maybe it's both. Maybe they can have it both ways. Maybe she was attacked. Maybe she was scared. Maybe she did have this traumatic episode, and maybe it wasn't Brett Kavanaugh, it was somebody else?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: This is an odd trial balloon being floated in conservative circles, and it smacks of sort of magical thinking. The spaghetti at the wall, see what sticks.

Because they -- Republicans understand they cannot be seen as attacking the accuser. On the other hand, they want to defend Brett Kavanaugh.

And the whole temperature around this has gotten ugly and intense. There are death threats being directed at Judge Kavanaugh's family and Dr. Ford and her family. We are better than this. This is a really complicated, difficult situation without obvious precedent.

[06:10:09] But words are being thrown around, not only death threats but calling the judge a rapist, things like that, which are -- have no basis in fact, and we will -- hopefully, if both sides argue in good faith, find a way to get to something close to the truth.

CAMEROTA: Yes, here's what she has said. I just want to throw it out there, because she said, "I knew them both."

Avlon: Yes.

CAMEROTA: The other person who alleges -- who somebody is sort of floating the idea that it was this other person. I knew them both and socialized with them both, Ford said, adding that she had once visited the other classmate in the hospital." She says, "There is zero chance that I would confuse them." This is the only time that we have heard from her this week.

BERMAN: Right. Right, the only other time, the first time we heard from her, is when she said -- and again, no one is accusing Professor Kavanaugh of being a rape -- Judge Kavanaugh of being a rapist. An attempted rapist, though, yes. Right, she is saying that he climbed on top of her, groped her, held his hand over her mouth and kept her from screaming. That is what she says happened.

And what we're now hearing --

AVLON: Those terms are being intentionally blurred, though, I mean, just to be clear, and I think it's important that they not be.

CAMEROTA: I think that's a good point.

I do think -- I do think, not, what we're hearing from the president of the United States when he says why didn't she tell the FBI 36 years ago, and what we are hearing now from Orrin Hatch, Kellyanne Conway, and this friend of Brett Kavanaugh is exactly the kind of thing we hear, Asha, in sexual assault and rape cases. It is a common defense. A common defense.

No. 1, why didn't they report this before? You hear that all the time. And No. 2, maybe it was someone else.

RANGAPPA: Yes, so I think John is exactly right. They are trying to find a middle ground here.

It's well-documented that victims of sexual assault will wait for a number of reasons, including the kinds of attacks that are actually being launched right now, and in this kind of -- you know, especially when there's so much publicity like this.

But other reasons you don't want to get into trouble with your parents. In this case, she was in high school, you know, feeling responsible for whatever. There are a lot of mixed emotions. And then, of course, I think they're also drawing on the idea in

criminal law that people make misidentifications. Harder -- it's one thing to do that, you know, I think, in a line-up, for example. Another to do it when, you know, you are physical assaulted.

BERMAN: The implication is you're confused. She's --

RANGAPPA: You're confused. Time has gone by too long. I mean, I think here the big question is -- and I think you mentioned this, John -- if they rush this through, if they don't, for example, get to some other witnesses to interview, if Judge Kavanaugh is confirmed and then something comes up later, that becomes a huge debacle on its own -- questions the integrity of the court. I mean, all kinds of things. They have to get it right now.

AVLON: And on everyone's behalf, it is wise to try to get to the bottom of this, as much as one can, involving a 35-year-old allegation --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

AVLON: -- about something that happened in high school. Because Kavanaugh will have this stain on him the entire court. It could be reopened.

This -- and Republicans are saying there's urgency. We've got to get this through. Democrats hear that, and they say, "What about Merrick Garland? Where's the urgency? Lifetime appointment. You didn't have urgency about Merrick Garland." And that bad blood is fusing through this entire debate.

CAMEROTA: Yes. But A.B., isn't it interesting how the president has handled this one? I mean, Asha (ph) pointed out that he has been much more measured. He hasn't really gone after her. He's posed a couple of questions, it just has been a different tact than we've heard in the past?

RANGAPPA: I agree with you on Monday he had the best messaging, the most appropriate, which was "We're happy to have a delay. We just want to get this right."

It deteriorated by last night into "Judge Kavanaugh is a saint," which people who know him, I mean, truly believe -- he is incredibly, intensely beloved more than any nominee I can remember to the point where men have tears in their eyes talking about this whole -- these allegations.

But the president has made clear he thinks that she's lying. So have several Republican senators, which is why it's so interesting in terms of the politics of this. It's politicized on both sides.

If I were Dr. Ford, I would want to be questioned by former Senator Kelly Ayotte or some outside person and not be in the political line- up of all this grandstanding by Republican senators.

But it almost seems like Democrats might, and he might want to see all these men, some of whom are -- all these white men, some of whom are over the age of 80, stumbling all over themselves asking her, you know, aggressive and obnoxious questions.

That part of it is very interesting, because it is clear many Republican senators are on the record this week, saying essentially they don't believe her and they think that she's lying, and that -- that's a part of this entire process.

BERMAN: The American people are saying a little bit different, right? NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" did a poll about approval for the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh. And that was just -- where is it now?

[06:15:04] CAMEROTA: Thirty-eight percent oppose.

BERMAN: Thirty-eight percent oppose.

CAMEROTA: Thirty-four percent support.

BERMAN: And you can see the swing, the big swing since August. The number there that's really changed is the "don't know." "Don't know" has changed substantially, and the opposition number has grown.

Just a couple of other points on politics. And A.B., in politics, I don't know that politics is at all involved with what Professor Blasey is doing. But it's there among what both parties are doing.

And the Democrats, we learned overnight, through Manu Raju's reporting, is that Professor Blasey's lawyers and we should just say this -- canceled a fundraiser they were going to hold for a Democratic senator, Tammy Baldwin. That's interesting. And Sheldon Whitehouse to Jake Tapper, raised the possibility that, if Judge Kavanaugh is confirmed, that if the Democrats takeover, they may launch impeachment proceedings. They may look into and investigate Judge Kavanaugh.

CAMEROTA: Again, this is all so complicated. All the weight of this is on Christine Blasey Ford's shoulders. And I think that if she just stays focused on telling her story, that's it. Just peel away all of the other politics and just go tell your truth and then we'll see what happens.

Coming up on NEW DAY, we will talk to a long-time friend of Christine Blasey Ford, as well as the counselor to the president, Kellyanne Conway.

BERMAN: All right. Other big news overnight. Michael Cohen's lawyer has confirmed that his client has done something that will be very unsettling to President Trump. Michael Cohen answering questions to the special counsel about Russia, questions surrounding Russian collusion; questions surrounding the president's business over the years. Does that cross just one of the many red lines the president has in the Russia investigation?

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[06:20:44] BERMAN: So Michael Cohen's attorney, Lanny Davis, has confirmed that his client provided what he calls critical information. The special counsel, Robert Mueller's Russia investigation. ABC News will first report that Cohen has met with Mueller's team for hours in multiple interviews.

We're back with Asha Rangappa and joined now by Renato Mariotti. He is a former federal prosecutor and now a CNN legal analyst. Very simply, Renato, Michael Cohen seems to be saying and his team saying that he's answering a whole lot of questions about Russia now.

The significance?

RENATO MARIOTTI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it certainly could be very important. Michael Cohen was the president's lawyer, obviously, but he was also a man who was a close associate of the president's who was talking to him on a daily basis. So he certainly may have very important information regarding Donald Trump's knowledge.

And he also, don't forget, is a very central figure in the dossier that has been discussed many times on both sides of the aisle. There was an alleged trip to Prague that he made. I'm sure that had to be one of the questions that Mueller's team asked, as well as questions about, for example, the president's knowledge of the Trump Tower meeting and other subjects.

CAMEROTA: But Asha, explain this to us. Here is Michael Cohen's attorney, Lanny Davis. Here's what he tweeted good this week or yesterday. "Good for Michael Cohen in providing critical information to the Mueller investigation without a cooperation agreement. No one should question his honesty, veracity or loyalty to his family and country over the president."

What -- why would you ever provide critical information without a cooperation agreement?

RANGAPPA: I think he can get leniency in the sentencing recommendation.

CAMEROTA: So after the fact they could give him leniency, and you don't need an agreement that says they will do that.

RANGAPPA: That's right. You know, there are a lot of motivations. I mean, who knows at this point if this is about "If I'm going down, I'm taking down everybody with me." And he does have a lot of knowledge as Renato said. He was involved with the potential deal for the Trump Tower Moscow.

CAMEROTA: I get it, but you don't give up that knowledge unless you think that it's going to save you some jail time.

RANGAPPA: I think they floated that and that clearly was not going to -- the Mueller team didn't bite on that piece of it. So I think they're going to try to maybe do what they can at this point to still get as the lower end of the sentence.

BERMAN: All these could be true here. It may well be that Michael Cohen wanted a cooperation agreement. But federal prosecutors are like, "We don't need to give me anything. We're just going to give you -- you know, we're going to give you the sentence. We're going to cop to this plea, because we have you on it."

No. 2, Cohen and his team -- and this happens all the time -- might be trying to get leniency in the sentencing by providing everything they have. The question that I have is you can do all those things, and they clearly have, according to ABC News and others, but why announce it? Why are they now leaking it? What do they get out of telling the world, Renato, that they're being cooperative like this?

MARIOTTI: Well, it's a very odd strategy, and it -- I've struggled to understand it at times, because Cohen and his team have done a lot of very public activities, right? They released that tape at one point on Chris Cuomo's show, et cetera.

And I think, the way I look at it is, I think they're trying to rehabilitate Cohen's image. I think Cohen is a person who is concerned, perhaps even obsessed with how he's perceived.

BERMAN: Needy.

MARIOTTI: And here it's really about, you know, showing the world that he's somebody who's not really Donald Trump's lackey. He's not taking the fall for Trump and so on. It will have an impact at sentencing. There's no question the judge will and has to consider even his attempts to cooperate, but I think this is more about public relations than anything else.

CAMEROTA: Here are the people that we know are cooperating or have with Robert Mueller, Paul Manafort, Rick Gates, a former Trump campaign official. Manafort was, of course, the campaign chair. Michael Flynn, the former national security advisor, George Papadopoulos, the Trump campaign advisor, and now Michael Cohen, Asha. So I mean, the --

RANGAPPA: Let's not forget, Alisyn, that he can fill in gaps in the Mueller investigation, which Mueller knows a lot. It may just be that he's adding some information.

[06:25:06] Where Cohen is a real liability for Trump is about the Trump Organization, and we already know that the New York attorney general has a civil suit against the Trump Foundation for, basically, misusing its foundation status and not doing the things it's supposed to do.

That could lead to a criminal investigation, and if that's outside the scope of Mueller's investigation, and it either happens at the state level or in the Southern District of New York, then it's insulated from anything Trump decides to do with them.

CAMEROTA: To the agents, meaning.

RANGAPPA: Well, the state investigations can continue, regardless of pardons, but for example, if Trump fires Mueller, this could potentially exist outside of that.

BERMAN: So Renato, what I'm thinking is if you've got the president's former lawyer, if you've got the president's former campaign chair, if you've had the president's former national security adviser all cooperating with you, you better very well be in the end days of this investigation, end days with a "Z" there, I just want to be clear. You may very well be in the end of your investigation, because you can't have much more than that.

MARIOTTI: I don't know about that. What if Mueller's next step is to charge somebody who, for example, Roger Stone, could be. Certainly, he appears to be somebody who Mueller is gearing up for.

And there's a lot of people close to the president whose fates we don't know yet, whether it's Donald Trump Jr. or Jared Kushner or others.

So I think he's certainly -- perhaps he's in the -- we're in the second half of this football game, but I don't know whether we're in the two-minute warning yet.

CAMEROTA: Even I understood that -- that analogy. Asha Rangappa, Renato Mariotti, thank you very much.

There's been another airport breach. Authorities are questioning that licensed commercial pilot -- we told you about this yesterday -- who jumps the airport fence in Orlando and boarded an empty American airlines plane. What was he doing? We have a live report for you next.

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