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White House Battles Mounting Crises Over Rosenstein & Kavanaugh. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired September 25, 2018 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm meeting with Rod Rosenstein on Thursday.

[05:59:17] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Rod Rosenstein is fired, the president will be, in effect, obstructing justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are people inside the Trump administration actively working against the president. The deputy attorney general should not be one.

BRETT KAVANAUGH, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: I've never sexually assaulted anyone. I want a fair process.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe both of their stories are credible, unlike his.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These allegations come out of nowhere. It's not untypical for our friends on the other side to pull that kind of crap.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. This is NEW DAY. It is Tuesday, September 25, 6 a.m. here in New York. Great to be back with you.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Washington could not handle your absence. You go away for, like, one day -- it was an hour, and the whole thing falls apart.

CAMEROTA: I was watching it from home yesterday like, "This is interesting."

BERMAN: "I'd better get back to work."

CAMEROTA: I'd better get back.

So the White House is battling dual crises this morning in what is promising to be a consequential week. The embattled deputy attorney general, Rod Rosenstein, is in limbo after a day filled with drama and confusion about his fate. President Trump says he will meet with Rosenstein who, of course,

oversees the Mueller Russia investigation on Thursday. It is unclear if Rosenstein will resign or be fired or keep his job.

BERMAN: Now, you might have heard of Thursday. It just so happens to be the day that Brett Kavanaugh and Christine Blasey Ford will testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Ford says Kavanaugh pinned her to a bed, groped her, tried to pull her clothes off and held his hand over her mouth to keep her from screaming when they were in high school.

Kavanaugh says he never did such a thing and, in an unprecedented interview overnight, said there is something else he never did until many, many years, he says, after high school.

We'll talk about why this interview happened and the deliberate message this uncomfortable revelation was meant to send in just a moment.

Republican leaders in the Senate and the president, they have come out with new statements of support for Kavanaugh. I want to begin our coverage with CNN's Abby Phillip live at the U.N. here in New York -- Abby.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, John. President Trump this morning is going to address the United Nations General Assembly amid a slew of global crises, but it is on the domestic front that President Trump's attention has been drifting to a couple of different crises that will all come to a head come Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TRUMP: We'll be meeting at the White House, and we'll be determining what's going on.

PHILLIP (voice-over): President Trump leaving Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein in limbo until Thursday after a day of confusion over his fate, which could have major repercussions on Special Counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation.

Sources tell CNN that Rosenstein offered to resign last Friday in a conversation with White House chief of staff John Kelly. After "The New York Times" reported that Rosenstein suggested secretly recording Trump and invoking the 25th Amendment to oust him from office after the president fired FBI Director James Comey.

Rosenstein denies the report, but a senior official says he overestimated how angry the president would be, and another source tells CNN he expected to be fired on Monday. Instead, after two chaotic hours inside the White House and a phone call with Mr. Trump, the White House delaying a decision on his future until the president and Rosenstein can meet in person on Thursday.

Sources tell CNN that President Trump and his allies are concerned that "The New York Times" story was leaked to provoke the president to take action against Rosenstein, even as members of both parties warn of the potential implications.

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: If he did something like that it would cause a furor that I don't think we need right now.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: If the president fires Rod Rosenstein it is Exhibit B in the obstruction of justice case against him, Exhibit A being the firing of James Comey.

PHILLIP: A source says President Trump has been preoccupied with the allegations surrounding Judge Kavanaugh and pushing the White House to go on offense.

TRUMP: People to come out of the woodwork from 36 years ago and 30 years ago and never mentioned it, all of a sudden it happens, in my opinion it's totally political.

PHILLIP: Kavanaugh defending himself alongside his wife in an unprecedented interview with FOX News ahead of Thursday's hearing with Christine Blasey Ford, who says the nominee sexually assaulted her in high school.

KAVANAUGH: I am not questioning and have not questioned that perhaps Dr. Ford at some point in her life was sexual assaulted by someone in someplace, but what I know is I've never sexually assaulted anyone.

PHILLIP: Judge Kavanaugh downplaying reports that he was a heavy drinker and partier in his youth.

KAVANAUGH: I went to an all-boys' Catholic high school, a Jesuit high school where I was focused on academics and athletics, going to church every Sunday.

I did not have sexual intercourse or anything close to sexual intercourse in high school or for many years thereafter. And the girls from the schools I went to and I were friends.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: So you're saying that through all these years that are in question you were a virgin?

KAVANAUGH: That's correct.

PHILLIP: Kavanaugh also denying a claim from a second woman, Deborah Ramirez, who accuses him of sexual misconduct in college.

KAVANAUGH: The other people alleged to be there don't recall any such thing. If such a thing had happened, it would have been the talk of campus.

PHILLIP: Earlier in the day, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell signaling that Republicans are moving forward.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEADER: I want to make it perfectly clear, Mr. President, Judge Kavanaugh will be voted on here on the Senate floor.

(END VIDEOTAPE) [06:05:04] PHILLIP: And all eyes are now on the Republican holdouts in the Senate: Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins and Jeff Flake, Republicans, with such a narrow majority, cannot afford to lose more than one of those individuals.

Meanwhile, all of this is playing out as President Trump is expected to address the world this morning at the U.N. -- John and Alisyn.

BERMAN: All right. CNN's Abby Phillip at the United Nations.

Abby, thanks very much.

Joining us now CNN senior political analyst John Avlon; former counsel to the U.S. assistant attorney general for national security and CNN legal analyst Carrie Cordero; and former senior counsel to Ken Starr, Paul Rosenzweig.

I want to start with Rod Rosenstein. And as much as we all care about Baltimore area federal justice, the reason Rod Rosenstein matters to America today is because of the Russia investigation and the fact that he oversees the Russia investigation and the reason that his departure whether by resignation or firing matters is because of questions about what would happen to that investigation.

Now, the president's lawyer, Jay Sekulow, thinks that, "Hey, if Rosenstein goes, that's a good reason to pause the whole thing." Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY SEKULOW, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: I think it's really important that there be a step back taken here and a review. And I think it's a review that has to be thorough and complete and a review that has to include an investigation of what has transpired with all of these statements and all of these allegations going back to the Strzok and Page and Bruce Ohr and basically a timeout on this inquiry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Basically, a timeout in this inquiry, Paul. I'm not quite sure it works the way that Jay Sekulow thinks it works, but if Rosenstein goes, you don't necessarily think that the whole Mueller investigation falls apart. Explain.

PAUL ROSENZWEIG, FORMER SENIOR COUNSEL TO KEN STARR: Well, I don't think it falls apart and I don't think there will be a pause. Defense lawyers have a saying that a continuance is a temporary acquittal, so they're always fighting for delay.

But the reality is -- is that if Rosenstein is fired, Mueller continues his work. He continues his work unless and until somebody else stops him, and if you think that the firestorm of firing Rosenstein would be significant, imagine the political firestorm in Congress and in the public during the midterm elections that are upcoming if Special Counsel Mueller were likewise fired. My prediction is he continues right along. CAMEROTA: But, Carrie, is there a way, is there some sort of middle

ground whereby Mueller is not fired but whoever comes in for Rosenstein, let's just play out this hypothetical, can change the parameters? Can do something that is less -- can instruct Mueller to do something less aggressively?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure, Alisyn. The question is whether or not another person, if Rod Rosenstein were fired or resigned, which I hope he does not do, by the way. But if -- whether or not somebody else in that position would change the investigation at the margins.

And so there's things that that person could do that would affect the investigation. For example, the person could limit the scope of the types of charges that the special counsel could bring. The person in charge could have different views as to whether or not the special counsel's office should refer additional criminal matters that it discovers in the course of its investigation to U.S. attorneys' offices, as we've seen with the Southern District of New York.

The individual could make different decisions regarding the resourcing of the special counsel's investigation, whether or not to detail other FBI agents or lawyers from the Justice Department to the special counsel's office. And the person could make a decision regarding the disposition of any report that the special counsel were to write, whether or not that report would be provided to Congress, whether or not that report would be made public.

So I think the question is whether or not an individual who assumes that position would make changes that might affect the investigation in a way that might not be so transparent, at least in real time, to the public.

BERMAN: I think the other thing that matters, in addition to the Russian investigation, was the "holy cow" level of chaos that existed --

CAMEROTA: I was watching that yesterday.

BERMAN: The tire. Rod Rosenstein's SUV tire in the rain outside the White House. And Kate Bolduan did a fantastic job on TV trying to explain what was happening and what we knew about it, which is zero, because we had no idea what was going on.

CAMEROTA: Neither did Rod Rosenstein.

BERMAN: No. Because he issues a resignation. You know, he says, "I think I could resign on Friday." And then Kelly says, "Wait," and then he goes back and is he resigning, is he not resigning?

And now, John, they have this meeting scheduled for Thursday when the president will be face-to-face with Rod Rosenstein. And if there's one thing we actually know about this "Apprentice" veteran president of the United States, he actually doesn't like personal confrontation. He doesn't like to fire people in person. And to me that indicates if he's having a meeting with him, maybe Rod Rosenstein is sticking around for a little while.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: That is one interpretation because the president who has a reputation for "You're fired," as you say, really likes to do it at a distance. He prefers attacking on Twitter than in person.

[06:10:03] But what he really loves, as a veteran of reality TV, is to organize the media display and he, I believe, is trying to consciously create a split screen on Thursday. There's the Kavanaugh hearing on one side of your screen. The other is Rosenstein going up to kiss the ring and possibly get, you know, his head lopped off professionally at the White House. That's the kind of optics this president understands and the optics he likes.

CAMEROTA: And in fact, that was the "Washington Post" reporting that this was designed to sort of throw the media off the scent. Here is the reporting.

"Over the weekend at two of his favorite haunts, his private golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, and Trump Tower in Manhattan, the president mused about wanting to inject some new chum into the news cycle to deflect the spotlight from Kavanaugh, according to a former official in frequent touch with the White House."

BERMAN: That's one of the first times that anyone has mused chum, by the way.

CAMEROTA: It's breakfast.

AVLON: Thoughtful shark.

CAMEROTA: So -- but despite all of that, I mean, despite trying to create a new spectacle, Paul, it also sounds, if you listen to the president on Geraldo's radio show yesterday, that even he does not know what he will reveal and what will happen on Thursday. So let me just play this moment for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS: Will you fire Rod Rosenstein based on this treachery?

TRUMP: I don't want to comment on it. I don't want to comment on it until I get all the facts. I haven't gotten all the facts, but certainly, it's being looked at in terms of what took place, if anything took place, and I'll make a determination sometime later, but I don't have the facts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Paul. I mean, first of all, the news is that the president is not going to comment until he gets all the facts. That is a departure. But what do you think, given if there are any clues hidden in there?

ROSENZWEIG: I honestly think it's more of a political calculation than it is a practical calculation. Obviously, he has the legal authority to fire Rosenstein, and I think equally obviously, if one of your subordinates is musing about invoking the 25th Amendment of the Constitution to remove you, that's probably a decent reason and ground to think about firing him. That's enough facts.

I think what's going to really play in the president's determination is -- is this split-screen dynamic. It will look really odd to fire Rosenstein on the same day that Judge Kavanaugh is confronting his accusers before the Senate takes a final vote on that. I could imagine that the political sturm and drang that comes from the firing of Rosenstein could actually have an adverse effect on the Kavanaugh consideration, though they shouldn't be linked at all. Certainly in Washington, that kind of linkage happens all the time.

BERMAN: You talk about the split screen. On Thursday when this happens, this will quite literally be all three branches of American government in turmoil at once. I mean, you will have Congress holding a hearing on the Supreme Court where the president is talking about using his power to fire someone investigating him. Three branches at once in turmoil.

And Carrie, there is a question. I'm not quite so sure it's as dire a question as others think, but there is a question about the difference between firing Rosenstein and having him resign and what that means for his possible successor.

The reason it may not matter is because the fact is that Rod Rosenstein actually holds two jobs at once. He's the deputy attorney general, and he's the acting attorney general in the matter of the Russia investigation.

So what happens, Carrie?

CORDERO: Well, that's right. So -- so the question is who would step in line? I believe the next person in line is the current solicitor general, Noel Francisco, who is Senate confirmed; and he's the solicitor general.

So the question would be whether he would become the acting attorney general for purposes of the Russia investigation. Because that's an acting attorney general position that needs to be taken on by somebody who has been confirmed by the Senate.

I would imagine, given the length of time that there has not been an associate attorney general, a Senate confirmed associate attorney general, there's been somebody in that acting capacity, I would imagine that Mr. Francisco has given some thought as to whether or not -- how he would oversee this investigation and whether or not he would be able to step into that role.

So whether or not there's any other issues regarding recusal or any other -- some reason that he wouldn't be able to. But otherwise, it most likely would be him who would become the acting attorney general for purposes of the investigation.

AVLON: Right. I just -- the big question is -- is does he jump or is he pushed? If he resigns, the president has, you know, relatively open parameters and could appoint someone of his own.

If he is fired, then it would be Noel Francisco. There are questions about whether there's a conflict he has, based on his law firm representing the Trump campaign, his former law firm. But that is why that is one of the key details to watch.

[06:15:05] BERMAN: Again, though, the idea of who is the acting attorney general actually isn't necessarily directly tied to who is the acting deputy attorney general.

The fact is that laws are sometimes written, and the interpretation is not yet clear. In neither of these laws, succession of the Vacancy Act has been tested in this way yet, so we just don't know. We shall see.

AVLON: We shall see.

BERMAN: The other ring in the circus -- Carrie, Paul, thanks very much -- is the Supreme Court showdown. How will the Supreme Court nominee, Brett Kavanaugh's, unprecedented interview affect the hearing on Thursday, and how was it meant to affect the hearing on Thursday? I think substantially is the answer to that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: President Trump and Republicans standing by the Supreme Court nominee, Brett Kavanaugh. Judge Kavanaugh speaking out publicly for the first time in a prime-time interview last night, denying Christine Blasey Ford's allegation that he sexually assaulted her three decades ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAVANAUGH: The truth is I've never sexually assaulted anyone, in high school or otherwise. I am not questioning and have not questioned that perhaps Dr. Ford, at some point in her life, was sexually assaulted by someone in someplace, but what I know is I've never sexually assaulted anyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right. Let's talk about it. We want to bring in senior correspondent for "The New York Magazine" and co-author of "Notorious R.B.G.," Irin Carmon; White House reporter for Bloomberg, Toluse Olorunnipa; and -- Toluse, I should say. And John Avlon. OK, guys. Thank you very much for being here.

BERMAN: You said "John's Avlon," by the way.

[06:20:03] CAMEROTA: John's Avlon.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I'm plural. I'm plural now.

CAMEROTA: Toluse, why did Brett Kavanaugh resort to a national televised interview where he talked about really personal awkward things, when so many of the Republicans have said, you know, this woman is making her case in the court of public opinion, she has gone to the media -- you know, this isn't fair -- and why do you think he took that tactic?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, BLOOMBERG NEWS: I think "The New Yorker" article that came out really sort of changed the game. It made Brett Kavanaugh and his team, specifically his team at the White House, want to try to gain the narrative back, take control of the narrative.

We know the president likes to watch FOX News. We know that when people go on FOX News, it has an outsized influence on the president. So there was that audience of one factor, but also just creating a narrative of Brett Kavanaugh being somewhat seen in a more compassionate light, that he's there with his wife. He's having to divulge all of his personal information about when he lost his virginity.

He is also taking some air out of this explosive Thursday hearing, where there are going to be a number of different questions. He was able to answer a lot of the questions that the senators are going to have for him. So his categorical denial on TV on FOX takes away some of the explosiveness of the Thursday hearing, because he has already answered and he's sort of fully said that this is not something that I have ever done to anyone. And we now know what he's going to say on Thursday. It's going to be much more difficult to push him further than what he's already said.

AVLON: And the fact is, Professor Blasey Ford hasn't spoken on television. And he's been invited everywhere.

CAMEROTA: Sure.

AVLON: And this was a smart P.R. strategy, I think, for Brett Kavanaugh to go out and tell his story, to be aggressive in getting his message out.

And I think the answer to the question, where he revealed that he was a virgin for many, many years, as he says, throughout high school, he went into that interview ready to say that. I don't think you answer that question that way in a spur-of-the-moment thing. It was in response, Irin, to the question about whether he was involved in some kind of group sex. So it was specifically in answer to that.

Nevertheless, do you think this was designed to make people uncomfortable so that they would say, "You know, a Supreme Court nominee shouldn't have to talk about when the first time he had sex was. Look how far we've devolved here. This whole process stinks." Which is an argument we've heard from the Republicans in the Senate.

IRIN CARMON, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, "NEW YORK MAGAZINE": John, I think it was a risky strategy, honestly, from a P.R. perspective. Yes, you have his unequivocal denial. Yes, you had him answering uncomfortable questions, but I also think that he provided an entire arsenal for Democrats. He previewed what he's going to say on Thursday.

And I think two really important things emerged from this interview, and one is that Martha MacCallum directly asked him, if you -- if you didn't do this why not talk to the FBI? And he didn't answer. He kept saying he wanted a fair process. But he never really engaged with White. He doesn't want the FBI to interview everyone.

And the other thing is that he made representations about who he was as a young man, which don't, again, prove whether he sexual assaulted anyone, but he said that he was never blackout drunk. He said he was mostly volunteering and going to church.

And there are a lot of people who know him back then, and his yearbook is full of references to heavy drinking. Mark Judge wrote multiple memoires about this.

And so I think it actually calls into question his honesty and his candor to represent a person that is totally different from what has been heard before. And that gives Democrats in Thursday's hearing, if it takes place, an opportunity to go in on the attack.

CAMEROTA: His yearbook in damning. I mean, it's damning. You know, because they talk -- and look, all of our -- I'm sure all of our high school yearbooks are damning, OK? But his talks about heavy drinking, and it talks about, you know, there's this reference to this person or word named Renate, and it turns out that there are 14 references in this Georgetown prep yearbook to Renate Schroeder. Renate alumnus. And she was one of the 65 women who sent a letter of support.

And now it turns out that these are references, it appears, to having had some sort of sexual contact with this woman at a different school. And now she says that she's appalled by the idea that there was this gross group of guys who were all claiming this in their high school yearbook.

AVLON: Yes, which --

CAMEROTA: Again, it's high school, OK. So I understand that people do silly things, but it is still that strain of misogynistic fervor.

CARMON: Yes. And he's accused of sexual assault in high school. I mean, it's relevant, because it's the time during which he was accused.

Avlon: So I think -- I think what we're confronting, the difference -- the gap between what he presented last night in the interview and the evidence not only in Dr. -- Professor Ford's system but the yearbook in stark.

He is trying to present a vision of high school as sort of a Jesuit Mayberry. And what we're confronting is evidence of an "Animal House" culture. And the two probably collide, and that's the reality. And the question is how you mediate that.

High school can be ugly. High school can certainly be petty. It can be a byword for "mistakes were made." But now he's holding himself up as a paragon of virtue in high school, and there's a lot of contradictory evidence baked in the cake in his yearbook. [06:25:08] BERMAN: I mean, he says repeatedly to Martha MacCallum,

"I've always treated women with dignity. I've always treated women" -- the fact is just that yearbook alone is not treating this woman with dignity. Now that doesn't prove or disprove the sexual assault allegation, but it does disprove the notion that he always treated women with dignity.

CAMEROTA: And also, there's not -- I mean, look, I could be wrong, but if we go back to his yearbook there's not a lot of references to going to church on Sunday.

But there is -- there are a lot of references to drinking in excess at 100 kegs and all that stuff. And I understand, again, that it's high school, but to your point, it is just a very different -- this captures it in real time. Yearbook is in real time.

AVLON: It does. And it's an indelible snapshot. It also could have very little to do with the man he is. And I think part of last week's strategy is he's standing by his wife. And the allegations and even probably some evidence in the yearbook is not -- does not seem to be reflective of the man she knows, and how he has lived his life professionally.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

AVLON: And part of the question that we're going to have to confront as a country in these hearings as they go forward is how much do you weight --

CAMEROTA: Yes, yes.

AVLON: -- someone's adolescent idiocy and potential beyond that.

CARMON: We are not just --

AVLON: Go ahead.

CARMON: It's not just weighting his adolescent, you know, indiscretions or allegations of sexual assault because we're weighing his honesty now. This is somebody who is being elevated to the Supreme Court potentially and so it's not really about what he did then, it's about what he's saying now. Is he being honest with the American people?

And, again, I'm just not so sure what he is accused of and he has indiscretions or allegations of sexual assault, because we're weighing his honesty now. Right? This is somebody who is being elevated to the Supreme Court, potentially.

And so it's not really about what he did then. It's about what he's seeing now. Is he being honest with the American people?

BERMAN: And again, I'm just not so sure what he is accused of, what he has denied is such a high bar that it is difficult to consider it when you're talking about a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court. He denies it. Toluse, what's fascinating to me also is yesterday I think we saw a

big shift in the Republican plans to get this nomination through. Mitch McConnell gave a fiery speech on the Senate floor, making clear there will be a vote on Judge Kavanaugh, and we're hearing from senators that they could have a committee vote as soon as Thursday or Friday. I think there are -- they're sort of circling the wagons, to use one commonly used metaphor, and showing their resolve that this is going to happen.

OLORUNNIPA: I think "The New Yorker" article, again, created this shift where a number of Republicans are starting to question whether or not it was smart to even delay the hearing and accommodate Dr. Ford, because now they believe that more women are coming out. They have Michael Avenatti now sort of throwing himself into the process, saying there is another woman who's going to come out.

So they're starting to second-guess whether or not they should have just plowed through with this in the first place. And they're not seeing some of the benefits they thought that they would see, especially heading towards the midterm where there's this big gender gap.

And now they're trying to be somewhat accommodative to Dr. Ford, and now they're second guessing whether or not it makes sense to just say, you know, we're going to get this guy on the court. As long as we have the votes, we're going to push through and move this as quickly as possible.

BERMAN: Because there's no Plan B. Plan B involves coming up with a new nominee which wouldn't get through before the midterms.

CAMEROTA: Why not? They had a list. They had a list of people.

BERMAN: It's just too long. It just takes too long.

AVLON: That's what's providing the urgency with McConnell's statement. And look, his determination to go forward is driven by political reality. If they put forward a new nominee after the midterms, there could be a Democratic Congress. That's a very different scenario.

They're dealing with payback to Merrick Garland off course, and that's what maybe they don't fully appreciate, but McConnell's determination to move this forward is going to be predicated on having the votes.

BERMAN: And Merrick Garland -- sorry, go ahead.

CAMEROTA: To that, on that same note, I mean, how about -- how about Susan Collins.

OLORUNNIPA: That's right.

CAMEROTA: And what she's confronting, these, you know, scores of protesters who are demanding that she vote against Kavanaugh. I mean, the pressure is on for her, but what she's saying is "Let's wait until Thursday." I mean, she, too, wants to hear the whole story. That's fair, right?

CARMON: Look, I mean, what about a fair process for Dr. Christine Blasey Ford? I mean, if you have all of the senators who were involved in this hearing on Thursday saying, "All right, let's get this over with. Let's, quote, 'plow through,'" which I still think is a really unfortunate choice of words, what is -- what is the fairness there?

And I think that actually what -- that they might be bluffing. They might actually be overstating whether they have these votes with Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski from Alaska, also potentially waiting and seeing until Thursday, even Jeff Flake, although I don't think Democrats should hold their breath, is saying, you know, he wants to make sure that this goes OK, wants to see what happens on Thursday.

I mean, again, if it's not about keeping an open mind on Thursday, then why are they doing it? Right? Is this a pro forma proceeding? Is it a rigged game? Or do they actually want to hear what this woman has to say? And so I think regardless it is, actually, the appropriate thing for Collins to say, "Let's wait and hear what she has to say on Thursday."

CAMEROTA: OK. Irin, Toluse, John, thank you very much.

This is definitely not something you want to see while out in your canoe.

BERMAN: Oh, my God.

CAMEROTA: No, that should not be along for the ride. The story behind this wild video next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)