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President Trump Tweets Criticism of Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts; Macy's to Hold Thanksgiving Day Parade; Interview with Congressman John Higgins. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired November 22, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: -- on the chief justice of the United States, lecturing John Roberts over Twitter on this Thanksgiving morning, as one does, about America's judicial system and the Constitution. This after the chief justice issued a stunning rebuke of the president for calling a judge who ruled against him an Obama judge. This is what the chief justice chose to write. "We do not have Obama judges or Trump judges, Bush judges or Clinton judges. What we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to do equal right to those appearing before them. That independent judiciary is something we should all be thankful for."

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: The president defiantly firing back, tweeting in part, "Sorry, justice Roberts, but you do indeed have Obama judges." The supreme feud sparked by Trump's anger over a judge's decision to block his new migrant policy. But could an alternate plan to block asylum seekers already be in the works.

"The Washington Post" reporting overnight the Trump administration is set to implement sweeping new measures at the southern border. That plan, known as Remain in Mexico, would force those seeking asylum in America to do just that, to wait in Mexico while their cases are processed in the U.S. That is a major break, of course, with current screening procedures.

Joining us now to discuss, senior correspondent for "New York" magazine and CNN contributor Irin Carmon, former Clinton White House press secretary and CNN political commentator Joe Lockhart, and CNN White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins.

I do want to start with what we have seen, both the comments from Justice Roberts and from the president. Irin, this is really in your wheelhouse as we look at the chief justice here. The fact that -- he's been asked about things before, but the fact that he made this conscious decision to respond to that question in an A.P. interview, to put this statement out there at a time when not a lot is going on, let's be honest, in the country, knowing that it would get picked up, that says something in and of itself.

IRIN CARMON, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE: I think there is a grain of truth in what Trump said, even if he's wrong about the Ninth Circuit being the most overturned, and that is that we do have judges appointed by the presidents and Senate confirmed. If we didn't have such a thing as Trump judges, Trump would not be elected. He was elected in part because he promised to appoint conservative judges. But it is an aspiration. The aspiration is that we have an independent judiciary and we have an institution that won't always rule with the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. And that was shown to be true, by the way, when it was a Trump appointed judge who restored Jim Acosta's pass, and it's been true when judges have struck down laws that were enacted by presidents who appointed them. It's a bedrock aspiration even when, in cases like Bush v Gore or even John Roberts writing the Shelby County case, it doesn't turn out to be true.

And if you appeal to that aspiration, you might be more effective. So there is such a thing as judicial politics here. Trump risks alienating a person who is now the swing judge on the Supreme Court. By trashing and tarnishing the judiciary, he's doing the opposite of doing what it might take to get Chief Justice Roberts on his side. And that ultimately is a massive strategic error no matter what grain of truth is in what he's saying.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Picking a fight against a guy who has a lifetime appointment is always questionable.

CARMON: Yes, and might also rule on key issues related to the Mueller investigation.

BERMAN: Joe Biskupiak (ph), who I spoke to last night, told me that she believes that John Roberts has been hearing from so many lower court judges who were upset at the president's approach to them that the chief justice felt he had to weigh in. It had bubbled up to the point where he felt like he had to respond. Joe Lockhart, among the things that Americans do on Thanksgiving morning is they grab coffee, go for a jog, play a football game, watch the parade on TV. The president has chosen to engage more in this fight with the chief justice of the United States. What does he get out of it?

JOE LOCKHART, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, I think you have to take a broader perspective. First, most presidents around this time do service or go see the troops that are deployed in a war zone. Trump played golf yesterday. He had no interest in that.

But I think a much broader perspective, if you look back at his convention speech, he painted a very dark picture of America and then said, only I can solve these problems. That is an authoritarian point of view. And I think what he's done -- and I don't want to give him too much credit here, but what he's doing is he's trying to piece by piece break down the foundations of our democracy. The media, the judicial system, law enforcement, the Justice Department, he's taking all those down and anyone who opposes him.

And you take that with his dark view of the country, and he's trying to bring all the power in an authoritarian way, and I think that's what he has to do in order to continue this effort. You know, if he focused on things going well, why would he need all this extra power? So I think there is something very deep and dark going on. It may be this president bumbling into it. It could be a very sinister plan, but it is very dangerous. HILL: Kaitlan, what's the talk amongst folks close to the president,

both there at Mar-a-Lago and even back in Washington, in terms of a reaction to -- it is not surprising that the president would respond. It is not surprising either that the president would double down and that he would stay on this. But what are folks around him saying? What are your sources saying this morning?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, no, it is not surprising. And I actually talked to White House aides last night and I told them that we had heard that it's unlikely that John Roberts would continue to engage in this tit for tat. And they said they couldn't say the same for President Trump. And then his tweet came this morning right on schedule.

And this is classic Trump, people close to him say, that this is what he does. Any time someone criticizes him or comes after him, whether it is about something he said or something he's done, or his administration as a whole, the president is going to fight back. That's how the White House characterizes this often regardless of who the president gets in an argument with, whether it be the chief justice of the Supreme Court or even the Pope at times. This is what the president does, and it fits into his pattern of what we've seen throughout his presidency of him punching back when he feels any kind of criticism.

Typically I'm sure president have disagreed with Supreme Court justices before, but that is something you would find out in a book decades later in some tell-all book that was written, not playing out on the president's Twitter feed as we are watching right now with John Roberts.

Where this goes from here is an open question, but we should note this is coming at a time that the Supreme Court is experiencing a change in its dynamic. Brett Kavanaugh has come on board. John Roberts is taking on a much different rule or is expected to, at least, and he's going to wield a lot of power. So it will be interesting to see how this goes forward, if he rules on certain cases and then President Trump responds essentially saying it has something to do with his argument that they had, that is what we're going to have to watch going forward, what President Trump uses this for in the future.

BERMAN: Let's do a lightning round here. Irin, I want to talk about Robert Mueller. Rudy Giuliani has noted that all the written questions have been turned in from the president. But Rudy also noted that he feels like it might not be over, that he doesn't know if the special counsel will try to interview the president in person. It was interesting to me that all of a sudden in Rudy's mind it is open ended.

CARMON: I think there's been some significant reporting that all along this strategy here on the part of the president's lawyers has been to drag this out for as long as possible and then say I don't know why it's taking so long. And it's another move, I think, to discredit the overall investigation, to drag your feet and then say it is taking so long without any fruit being born from it. HILL: Joe, just to pick up on that point, the fact that this public

relations effort has been put out by Rudy Giuliani, not a legal effort, let's be honest, this public relations effort. Moving forward, we're only going getting one side of the story. Mueller's people are not talking, as we know, so we're only hearing the Rudy Giuliani side of the story.

LOCKHART: Yes. And I think that's what will change the dynamic here. This is in every sense a political, not a legal issue because the only way to remove the president is for Senate Republicans to decide that it's not in their interest to have him there. So I think we have to wait to see what Mueller has. It will drop. There are some other things that are going to happen in the southern district of New York.

But I think the only thing that changes the dynamic here is if it is so profound, the corruption and the collusion, if Republicans in the Senate decide that it's easier to run in 2020 with President Pence running as president rather than President Trump, they will make that decision, but that is a very, very steep hill.

BERMAN: That seems unlikely morning.

All right, Kaitlan Collins, it is Thanksgiving morning. In addition to hate tweeting at the chief justice of the United States, in addition to writing, the first words the president wrote this morning were, it's a mean and nasty world out there. In addition to all that, what does the first family have in store for Thanksgiving Day?

COLLINS: Not your usual Thanksgiving message from the president, but today they do have a teleconference with military leaders happening in about the next hour or so, military members, with President Trump and the first lady, Melania Trump. I heard Joe mention earlier that President Trump hasn't visited troops in war zones yet since he's been president, and that has been a criticism he's been facing lately because typically those visits have happened around holidays like Thanksgiving.

President Trump says they have got something in the works, but we have not been told anything by the White House when that could be, and he is still in palm beach, Florida, today. So he's got that going on. But in addition to that, expect to see a lot of tweeting while the president is at Mar-a-Lago club. As we saw last night, even when he's typically at dinner with friends, something that White House aides worry about because they don't know what kind of advice the president is getting when he is here at this club where he has open access, essentially, to the president, expect that today along with that Thanksgiving tradition for the president.

[08:10:03] BERMAN: Is it a public meal or a private family meal for the Trumps today?

COLLINS: That's the question. They typically eat in the dining room here at the club going forward. Whether or not that happens today or whether the president brings some friends in, we'll have to wait find out.

BERMAN: Kaitlan, Irin, Joe, thank you all for being here. Happy Thanksgiving to you all.

In just minutes, the Macy's 92nd annual Thanksgiving Day parade, the one with the balloons, kicks off here in New York. Spectators are facing record breaking cold temperatures. There is some good news, though. We are told as of this minute the balloons will be able to fly despite the cold and wind. Miguel Marquez live at the start of the parade with the very latest. Miguel?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I want to show you what's happening here. They just took the net off of Chase from Paw Patrol, so that is a very good sign. Organizers announcing that winds are about 10 miles an hour, gusting up to 20, so well within that 23, 34 range for not allowing the balloons. They have thousands of balloon handlers to keep them going. You can see these balloons down here as well. These are the smaller balloons. It is 43 smaller balloons, 16 of the bigger balloons, and right now it looks like they are in very good shape.

Joe, you were interested in clowns earlier. I have something special for you here, John. I have a clown. Where is he? Matthew! Matthew Hutchison (ph) from Haskell, New Jersey. Eight, nine years as a clown?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

MARQUEZ: And is the coldest it's ever been?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So far. It's not that bad, though. It's cold, yes.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is cold. It is cold.

MARQUEZ: How cold is it, Matthew?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no idea because layered, I'm under here.

MARQUEZ: But you are cold. And do you always dress as a prisoner?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I have been different clowns. I've been a nutty professor. I've been a patriot clown. I have also been Santa's elf. So I have been various clowns.

MARQUEZ: And these are all your clown buddies?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes!

(LAUGHTER)

MARQUEZ: Hi, clown buddies! Happy Thanksgiving!

It is going to be a good day?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it's going to be a good day.

MARQUEZ: Balloons are going to fly?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. They took the netting off Paw Patrol.

MARQUEZ: It's all happening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's all good. It's all good.

MARQUEZ: It's all good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

MARQUEZ: Excellent. Thank you very much. A very Happy Thanksgiving to you.

It's looking very, very good out here. Organizers do say they do get that wind shear in New York along the parade route sometimes as well, so they can even call an audible along the parade route and bring balloons down if need be. But right now, it is looking all very good.

BERMAN: They took the net off of Paw Patrol.

HILL: Chase is ready to go. Chase is ready.

BERMAN: We had it for your live. Miguel Marquez, thank you very much.

MARQUEZ: Chase is on the case.

BERMAN: See, he knows.

HILL: That was strong. Strong move, my friend. See, the cold can't do anything to this. You are just on fire. Thanks, Miguel.

BERMAN: I'm still shaking from the New Jersey clown. I'm sorry.

HILL: John is having a hard time with the clown, so we're going to move on to weather. This Thanksgiving could be one of the coldest in 100 years, not just in New York City, though. There are some other areas of the country that will have a slightly more rosy forecast. CNN meteorologist Chad Myers has a closer look for us. Happy Thanksgiving.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: To you, too. The western half of the country is really nice, well above normal over there. It's just this one little spot that we're caring about today, New York City, that has been so cold and will stay cold. Right now, Central Park is 19, but the wind is somewhere around 15 miles an hour, way below where we would have to bring these balloons down. So we're in good shape.

But look at this. Montpellier, it's one. And your windchill factor there is 16 below. There are a number of people up here in Vermont, New Hampshire, and the like that are wanting to go skiing today. And you will have to bundle up for sure. It should be 52 in New York. Today it's going to be 27. Morning low of 17. That's somewhere in the ballpark of 20 to 30 degrees colder than normal. But look at Montana. It's 49 in Billings, warmers than Washington D.C. You wouldn't expect that. Snow on the Rockies as well. We'll keep an eye on that. Air travel doing very well today. Not as many planes, not as many flyers, but all the airports are on time, at least for now. Guys, back to you.

BERMAN: Chad Myers, thank you very much. Look at Billings, Montana. It always gets my attention.

Opposition to Nancy Pelosi becoming the next speaker of the House appears to be collapsing. Does she now have the votes? We're going to speak to a congressman who just days ago had his name on a list of people saying they would not vote for her. But now he's changed his no to a yes. Why?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:18:15] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The opposition to Nancy Pelosi becoming the next speaker of the House appears to be eroding. One of the 16 Democrats who signed a letter saying he would not vote for her as speaker now says he will.

Congressman Brian Higgins, a Democrat from Buffalo, he went from no to yes after five conversations with Nancy Pelosi in 72 hours.

Joining me now is Congressman Brian Higgins of New York.

Congressman, happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

I just want to get your perspective on where you were not long ago on Nancy Pelosi. This was November 14th, one week ago yesterday. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BRIAN HIGGINS (D), NEW YORK: The issue is after 16 years of the same leadership, we need a new direction. And that's what people voted for this November. And I think that's what people are looking for in the new Congress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, that really wasn't that long ago, Congressman. What changed?

HIGGINS: Well, I broke with the Democratic leader in June. It was a principled argument over a legitimate issue. I want to see people between the ages of 50 and 64.5 to be able to buy Medicare as a health insurance option because that age demographic is getting clobbered by private insurance. So, as protections that I believe needed to be made public as to what we would do if we became a majority, we had a disagreement. I do believe we need new leadership in the United States Congress.

I supported a candidate by the name of Karen Bass, a member out of California, former speaker of the assembly, a member, a leader in the Congressional Black Caucus. She announced she is not going to run. There is not an alternative right now. I believed I had to use the leverage that I had at the moment to advance two very important public policy objectives, and that is providing patient protections to 25 million Americans.

[08:20:06] And, finally, after a decade and a half, doing a trillion dollar infrastructure bill which will put America back to work and create demand in the steel industry and the construction trades and the supplying materials industry. So I'm a politician. My vote is my legislative tool, and I used that to advance two very, very important public policy objectives.

We will have new leadership in Congress. There will be a new speaker sooner rather than later. But the reality is you can't oppose somebody without an alternative candidate. And there is no alternative candidate.

And while all of the members that had signed that letter with me, they're good principal members, the fact of the matter is you're going to seek and it is unlikely to work, you are seeking to deny the speakership to someone, to give it to somebody else who really is undeserving. If you want to run for speaker, stand up and announce your candidacy and advance the arguments as to why people should support you. There is nobody to do that right now.

BERMAN: All right. There was a lot in what you just said. I want to take a few bits of it point by point.

Number one, you said you do think there will be a transition in leadership when? Did speaker Pelosi give you any assurances of when she would step down?

HIGGINS: No, she didn't. But what she has characterized herself as, she's characterized herself as a transitional leader. There is no date specific to that.

But the reality is whoever the speaker is, you don't want to undermine their ability when they have to enter into very tough negotiations with the White House and with the Senate on issues like a Medicare buy-in bill and on infrastructure bill. So -- but I do believe her when she says that she is a transitional leader, and I think that --

BERMAN: Let me --

HIGGINS: Sure.

BERMAN: I'm sorry to interrupt. It's just I want to get you to your Thanksgiving meal as soon as possible here.

You also --

HIGGINS: It's early. I got a lot of time.

BERMAN: You seem to have a message for the other 15 people that signed that letter. You seem to be telling them maybe it's time for them to change their minds as well, correct?

HIGGINS: No, I speak for myself. And the fact of the matter is here is what I believe: The United

States Congress is the most powerful branch of the federal government. The most powerful branch of Congress is the House of Representatives.

We have extraordinary constitutional powers that we're not using and haven't been used for two decades. I simply want Congress to exercise those powers towards the advancement of a public policy objectives that are designed to grow the economy and to help people who are getting clobbered by high insurance premiums. That's what I was elected to do, to use those powers to help my neighborhood, individually and collectively, but also help the nation.

So whatever individual members decide to do, each member, every member of the House, there's 435, everybody can't have their own way. You've got two things. You've got your voice and you've got your vote. And what you do with it represents what it is your primary objectives are.

BERMAN: You said you did have a feud with Nancy Pelosi. And you called her aloof, frenetic and misguided. Do you still feel that way?

HIGGINS: Yes. That was my conclusion based on my engagement with her in the previous year on the specific issue that I made reference to. I said those things, and I believe them to be true at the time.

The fact of the matter is I want to move forward toward the goal of making the 116th Congress very, very productive. And I think the agreement that I have in principle with the Democratic leader is toward advancing a Medicare buy-in bill and a major infrastructure bill that will solve a lot of problems in this country and has been deferred and delayed for too long.

BERMAN: Brian Higgins, congressman from Buffalo, thank you very much for being with us. Thanks to you for your time and happy Thanksgiving to you.

HIGGINS: Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: Erica?

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Robert Mueller could have more questions for President Trump, so will the president answer them?

BERMAN: Plus, a frightening ride for Amtrak customers. What happened after two cars broke away from a moving train?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:20] HILL: Rudy Giuliani says special counsel Robert Mueller is not done seeking answers from President Trump. The president's attorney telling CNN Mueller could still ask the president more questions on obstruction of justice.

Joining us now, former special assistant to FBI Director James Comey and CNN law enforcement analyst Josh Campbell, and former lawyer for Rick Gates and CNN legal analyst Shan Wu. Gentlemen, good to have both of you with us. Happy Thanksgiving to

both of you. Always thankful for your expertise and your insight on some of these matters.

Shan, I want to begin with you.

You know, a couple of things just to pick out what Rudy Giuliani told us probably shouldn't come as a surprise to any of us that Robert Mueller may have more questions for the president. But one of the things that Giuliani said that he would fight questions of obstruction of justice because he would violate executive privilege.

Is that clear to you?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's not at all clear and it's not at all clear to most legal experts. I think that Giuliani sounds extremely overconfident on that point, but that's part of his spin.

The executive privilege has always been a murky area. I mean, it's been used as far as back as George Washington and Eisenhower. Most recently, in the espy (ph) matter, the Clinton administration kind of had an up and down luck with it. It basically was not upheld. But in espy it was for purposes of aides gathering information to brief the president.

So I think that's probably been studied rather carefully by the Trump team, but it is by no means a well settled area. So I think the big question is really important Mueller's team is going to want to press this all the way to the Supreme Court and open up a big fight over it, the implication of executive privilege.

HILL: Which will be interesting to see. Rudy Giuliani also told he wasn't given any sense of time line, any sense of when this may end. That's probably not surprising to a lot of people. We know how tight lipped the Mueller has been, Josh.