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Michael Cohen Breaks His Silence After Sentencing; CDC: Gun Deaths Reach Highest Level In Nearly 40 Years; Chief of Staff Search Yields Lots Of Laughs. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 14, 2018 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:31:21] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news. President Trump's former lawyer, now convicted felon Michael Cohen, is breaking his silence. His first interview after being sentenced to three years in prison.

Here's what he says he told Robert Mueller's investigators.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: The special counsel stated emphatically that the information that I gave to them was credible and helpful. There's a substantial amount of information that they possess that corroborates the fact that I am telling the truth.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC ANCHOR, "GOOD MORNING AMERICA": So you're done with the lying?

COHEN: I am done with the lying. I am done being loyal to President Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Done being loyal.

We have our legal and political analysts with us here -- Elie Honig, Bakari Sellers, Marc Short.

Bakari, actually, before we break down, I think, the nuances of what Michael Cohen said, I do want to ask you because you were a defense attorney among many other things. You say the fact that he's talking like this, you would never advise him to do this. You think he's hurting whatever case he might try to make --

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN COMMENTATOR, FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA HOUSE MEMBER: Oh --

BERMAN: -- going forward to reduce his sentence.

SELLERS: What we do know is Michael Cohen hasn't been listening to anybody's advice soundly throughout this whole period.

After you get sentenced -- I mean, what most people would say is in the federal system, of course, they don't haul you off to jail like they do in the state system. They usually -- they usually allow you to get your belongings together, get your life in order. And in that time you want people to be quiet. You want people to focus on their family.

If they're doing any cooperating, you want them to continue to cooperate fully because you have an opportunity, as you know, for a downward departure -- a Rule 35 -- which usually comes at the end of your sentence.

And I think by speaking and by going out here and being boastful, as he is -- even as he tries to be humble it doesn't come off as such -- he ruins any chance for any downward on the back end. I'm not even sure the prosecution would give him that because that fully lies in the hands of the prosecution. However, if he had a chance, it's ruined now.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Marc, you are a person who gives us a window into the White House. You were there recently, of course, as the legislative director.

And so, when people in the White House, including the president, hear Michael Cohen, who was his dutiful, loyal soldier for so long say that the special counsel believes that he provided credible evidence and that he believes that Robert -- that he knows that Robert Mueller has a substantial amount of information, some of which he's provided, how nervous are they this morning in the White House?

MARC SHORT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER DIRECTOR OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: I don't think we know, Alisyn because we don't know what that substantial amount of information is.

What we do know is that Michael Cohen was prosecuted for multiple things -- multiple things from his own tax evasion, from his own bank fraud, as well as his own lying to Congress.

And so naturally, for a prosecutor to say look, you need to confess as well to campaign finance violations and it might help reduce your sentencing, that is a reality we face. But we don't know what's in --

CAMEROTA: But, I mean, does that lessen the fact that it was a -- a crime was committed and that Donald Trump directed him to pay off women?

SHORT: It does not lessen the fact that Michael Cohen has committed multiple crimes. I think there's an outstanding question that it's -- whether or not it is a campaign finance violation. There's a former FEC commissioner who has said it is not. I think that's an open question.

Just because you get -- you basically accept that -- the prosecutor's argument to get a reduced sentence does not mean that as the case has been tried.

SELLERS: This is not -- and one of the things -- and that's the line of argument that my good friend and home state senator Lindsey Graham made. This is a tough case against Donald Trump. Any prosecutor would have a tough case.

Well, it's really not. And the reason it's not is because you have two independent witnesses who say that Donald Trump instructed these payments and for what purpose he did so. You have David Pecker, you have AMI -- the "National Enquirer" -- and you have Michael Cohen.

So you have two independent witnesses who are saying that the president instructed these payments and for what intent he did so. And so, when you add these independent witnesses -- OK, Michael Cohen's a liar, so what -- but why does his storyline up directly with that of the "National Enquirer," you have a -- you have an insurmountable amount of evidence that any jury, I think, would find him guilty.

[07:35:07] BERMAN: Stand by for one second, Elie, if you can because we are getting more of this interview in at this moment. Let's play a little bit more right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: -- a change. I will tell you that the gentleman that is sitting now in the Oval Office, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, is not the Donald Trump that I remember from Trump Tower. He's a very -- he's a very different individual.

STEPHANOPOULOS: What's happened to him?

COHEN: I think the pressure of the job is much more than what he thought it was going to be. It's not like the Trump Organization where he would bark out orders and people would blindly follow what he wanted done.

There's a system here. He doesn't understand the system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Elie, I promise we'll get to you in just a minute.

But because Michael Cohen, right there, was talking about Donald Trump in the White House not understanding that the job of being president is different than being in charge of the Trump Organization, I want to go to you, Marc.

You heard what Michael Cohen said there. You've been in the White House. Was it your observation that being president was different than Donald Trump expected?

SHORT: I don't know if anybody knows what to expect when they come in to be President of the United States. I think that the Americans elected an outsider for intentional reasons. They wanted to disrupt and change the system.

But I never found, honestly, that Donald Trump wasn't up to the job or feels less sort of comfort or change there. I think he actually relishes the job. He appreciates the opportunity to do this and I don't -- I don't see any change in him. CAMEROTA: Does it surprise you that Michael Cohen says that everything that happened in the Trump Organization had to be authorized by Donald Trump?

SHORT: No. There's no doubt the president wants to be in the center of most decisions that are made.

And I will say, Alisyn, I think that the biggest challenge here -- I don't -- I don't want to question Bakari's legal guidance because he's a smart guy, but I think there's FEC commissioners who would disagree with that.

But I do think there is a challenge that the president and the White House needs to rectify. I think statements that are not corroborated, meaning saying that I didn't know about the payments and then saying that there's evidence that he did. That, I think, is a fundamental problem for the White House and the president that they need to address to regain confidence.

But at the same time, I'm less concerned about this campaign finance angle because I don't think it is.

BERMAN: That's a very nice way of saying their story changed a lot over the last year and someone along the way, whether it was the president or Sarah Sanders or someone else, was clearly lying about what the president knew and what the president did there.

Elie, I'm so sorry. You've been very patient.

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, FORMER ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, NEW JERSEY DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: I was so eager because you're going to -- you're going to see the rare opportunity to see a prosecutor and defense lawyer agree.

A key question is whether this was a campaign contribution or something else. Was it designed to help him in the election? Was it designed to protect the family from humiliation? And, Bakari, I think, laid out some of the -- some of the argument that it is -- it should fall in the campaign side of the ledger.

But there's other facts, as well -- the lies, right? Why is everyone lying about this all the time?

The timing. These affairs happened about a decade before the payments but the payments were made two, three weeks before the election. It's kind of hard to explain why if that's not an election purpose.

The tape. Again, we go back to the tape that Michael Cohen secretly made of the president. They're talking about we just need to push this out a few more weeks until after November, right? So again, they're focused on the campaign.

And then, the manner of payment. They made these payments through shell companies -- why would you do that -- with these falsified invoices. Why would you do that? So I think Bakari and I -- maybe we could team up and prosecute this case together. But I think there's a pretty strong case that it's campaign contributions.

CAMEROTA: Also, I just got the impression from Michael Cohen and what he has said this morning -- and we'll play more of it in a moment -- that there's more than just these payments to, you know, Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal. That he says he's provided a substantial amount of evidence. We don't know what that means.

HONIG: Yes, sure.

CAMEROTA: What else there is.

HONIG: We don't know. I mean, one of the things I'm very interested -- and remember, when Michael Cohen pled for the second time a few weeks ago, remember what he pled guilty to -- to lying to Congress about how long Donald Trump was trying to build this $100 million tower in Moscow.

CAMEROTA: In Moscow, yes.

HONIG: And it went into June of '16 -- well into the election well after Trump was already the presumptive nominee.

And there are some hints and suggestions in the paperwork in court that Cohen vetted that false testimony through others in the White House. And anyone else who was in on the creation of that false testimony is going to be on the hook as well.

BERMAN: We have more sound that we played some time ago where Michael Cohen does lay out -- does tell George Stephanopoulos that he was directed by the president to make these payments. Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: I will not be the villain of his story.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He's saying, very clearly, that he never directed you to do anything wrong. Is that true?

COHEN: I don't think there's anybody that believes that.

First of all, nothing at the Trump Organization was ever done unless it was run through Mr. Trump.

He directed me, as I said in my allocution and I said, as well, in the plea -- he directed me to make the payments.

He directed me to become involved in these matters, including the one with McDougal which was really between him and David Pecker, and then, David Pecker's counsel. I just reviewed the documents in order to protect him.

[07:40:00] I gave loyalty to someone who truthfully, does not deserve loyalty.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He was trying to hide what you were doing, correct?

COHEN: Correct.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And he knew it was wrong?

COHEN: Of course.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And he was doing that to help his election?

COHEN: He -- you have to remember at what point in time that this matter came about -- two weeks or so before the election, post the Billy Bush comments. So yes, he was very concerned about how this would affect the election.

STEPHANOPOULOS: To help his campaign.

COHEN: To help him and the campaign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, Bakari, Michael Cohen there just responded in a way to Marc Short's claim that it's just a simple violation -- there's not a crime. He making the legal case to counter what you just said, which is that the president directed him, that he knew it was wrong, that it was to win the election, and that he tried to cover it up.

SELLERS: Well, let me -- let me say this. Michael Cohen is a liar, OK? I think we know that. I think he -- he pled guilty to being a liar.

But what I do believe is that the individual that we're seeing on this tape is not lying in this instance because he has no reason to because he's going to prison for three years. That's a long time for someone of Michael Cohen's stature. It's a substantial amount of time no matter how many -- no matter how many times people say it, but he is going to jail for three years and will be away from his family. So I do believe he's telling the truth there.

But I think even when you go back to David Pecker and the "National Enquirer" you have to give that some credence.

But I want all of us to take a step back if we can and just realize politically how low the bar is for this President of the United States because we went from Barack Obama having a tan suit to now talking about the President of the United States paying off porn stars.

And so, I want us to kind of see where we are in the country to what we're settling for and what we have, and really see if this is what the country wants and is this the discussions we want to be having.

SHORT: Well, as we expand that and how low the bar is, there is an irony that we have continually, Democratic congressmen coming on making an allegation about campaign finance. Yet, in Congress today, there's taxpayer funding to provide cover-up for sexual harassment. SELLERS: That's not --

CAMEROTA: Yes, they're --

SELLERS: That bill just passed.

CAMEROTA: They're working on that -- fixing that.

SELLERS: But I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think that's a --

CAMEROTA: We did a whole story about that.

SELLERS: We've been agreeing more than we've been disagreeing. That's an awful piece of legislation and it's passing and it -- correct.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and we've covered it. And when it came to light they fixed it.

SELLERS: Correct, correct.

CAMEROTA: So --

SHORT: Came to light, Alisyn? It was -- it was --

CAMEROTA: Yes, well, we talked about it.

SHORT: OK, but it's not just that it came to light.

CAMEROTA: Listen, I agree. Listen, I --

SHORT: It's been -- it's been -- it's been the law --

SELLERS: But that's what -- that's whataboutism, though.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

SELLERS: That's whataboutism.

But I agree with you. All I'm saying is that the bar is so low for this President of the United States.

And one of the things that I'll caution my Democrats in the House majority is allow Mueller to do his work because we don't know what Cohen has provided. We don't know the information that's there. We don't know the conversations that have had.

And we do know that the Senate Intelligence Committee and Mueller are doing their work. So allow them to do it. Don't rush.

BERMAN: What does Michael Cohen think might come from all of this?

CAMEROTA: We know the answer to this because he has just spoken out and here's some new sound from that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) STEPHANOPOULOS: You look back at the Michael Cohen who spent 10 years with Donald Trump. What would you say to him on that first day?

COHEN: What were you thinking? You knew better. You know better.

STEPHANOPOULOS: How does this end for Donald Trump?

COHEN: You know, that sort of gets into the whole investigation right now between the special counsel's office, the attorney general's office. You also have the Southern District of New York.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: What?

CAMEROTA: Are we doing this? Are we cutting the -- oh -- are we cutting this for cliffhangers or is that what ABC is putting out? OK.

SELLERS: Who is responsible for that?

CAMEROTA: Yes, what's happening?

Look, Elie, I hear a lot there. Any time you talk to, generally, victims of crimes -- he's in a different situation -- the answer -- the question they always want from the culprit is why? Why did you do this, why? That's what they always want.

And he wants to -- of course, Donald Trump will not answer this for him but --

HONIG: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- that's what his burning question is.

HONIG: He's certainly no victim. But, you know, this is a human drama that you see playing out a lot of times in criminal cases. I grew up doing mafia cases here in this city and it -- this reminds me of that in so many ways.

When two people come up and they're close and they're doing, let's just say, improper things together -- arguably, illegal things -- they're incredibly close. They trust each other with trusted secrets. And then, somebody -- and then they -- you know, the chickens come home to roost and they're both in trouble, and someone flips and starts talking about the other one.

And these feelings of betrayal, and disloyalty, and anger are really sort of pretty common in what you see. And it's a riveting drama and if Michael Cohen were ever to take the stand we'd probably see a dynamic cross-examination and it would ultimately come down to -- as Bakari said, he's a liar and I don't think you could ever ask someone to take him at face value. But if what he says is backed up by common sense and other evidence, then I think he can back it up.

SELLERS: But you're going to have an opportunity. This is what -- this is what people aren't paying attention to because Michael Cohen, between now and March ninth, is going to have an opportunity to testify in public in the United States Congress.

Now, it's going to be a complete "S" show, right? It will be. But that is going to -- we're going to see that and we're going to see Michael Cohen be able to sit there and be cross-examined by members of the United States Congress in public.

[07:45:03] I'm afraid for Michael Cohen to do that. He doesn't look like a man -- he looks like he needs some sun, a good meal. I mean, he looks like -- he looks disheveled. He looks like a man who is going to prison. You and I have both seen that.

HONIG: Yes.

SELLERS: But I think that we're going to see more of Michael Cohen than less of Michael Cohen, and that's a problem for Michael Cohen. And that just means that Donald Trump is going to have a mess on his hands, as well.

BERMAN: Very quick, the last word, Marc.

SHORT: Well, I mean, I think what we sit here and talk about is the drama. It's a tragedy -- that's the reality. This is -- this is sad all the way around.

SELLERS: Yes.

SHORT: And look, I think that -- I hope the best for Michael Cohen and his family.

But I think we're sitting here saying -- you know, we call him a liar and then we say but we have to trust this part of his testimony. Let's just wait and see.

CAMEROTA: Gentlemen, thank you.

BERMAN: All right.

Gun deaths in the United States have reached a staggering new level. Dr. Sanjay Gupta with the alarming new numbers, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:50:36] BERMAN: So, the CDC says gun deaths have reached the highest level in almost 40 years. Last year, nearly 40,000 people died from being shot here in the United States. Equally alarming, CNN's analysis of these numbers show that more than half died from suicide by guns.

Joining us now is CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, again, the number alarming in and of itself, but the underlying analysis -- the rise in suicides here in the United States is deeply troubling.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It really is. And, you know, we decided to analyze these numbers again just to confirm this and to not only see what is happening right now but to also get a sense of how have these numbers changed over time.

And as you mentioned, John -- I mean, if you look at the numbers overall, nearly 40,000 people died from gun violence -- and it was 39,700. More than half -- 60 percent - were suicides. And if you -- if you add up all those numbers there you'll find that the suicide rates were about 23,000.

But look at the very top there -- top left corner of your screen. Much higher among white men. Much, much higher than any other demographic in the country. And that number there, one of the highest in the world per capita in terms of suicide deaths.

We have -- we can look at homicide deaths, as well. They're going to reflect a different picture with regard to the demographics. But it is -- you can see there, black men much more affected there by homicide deaths. This is all from 2017 data.

But again, if you add them up, you're looking at some of the highest gun violence rates, really, anywhere in the world.

CAMEROTA: Yes, Sanjay, and I think that that is what -- all of this is so staggering, but when you look at what's happening in the world and put the U.S. in context, we are the second-highest country that has firearm deaths. The second-highest of the world, OK? So we're above Mexico, we're above Colombia, we're above Venezuela, we're above Guatemala.

Clearly, something has gone wrong. You can't fight with these numbers. The U.S. is doing something wrong.

And what does the research show about why this has spiked?

GUPTA: Well, you know, it's interesting. When you look at that pie graph, first of all, that's about gun violence deaths overall. The vast majority of those other countries are from homicides. And as we've just been talking about in the United States, the vast majority of gun violence deaths are from suicide.

So, just -- that's something to stick in the back of your mind when you think about gun violence. And think about -- OK, if you look back to 1999, fast-forward now 18-19 years, what has happened -- the numbers have gone up almost 25 percent. So it's 40,000 now. It was closer to 30,000 back in 1999. So clearly, an upward trajectory.

What has happened over that time? Why have the suicide rates gone up that much?

There's been a lot written about this. One of the terms that gets used a lot -- and it's a tough term to hear -- is deaths of despair -- deaths of despair, meaning that the economy has been up and down, you've had all these problems where it feels like these are more desperate times.

And as a result, not only have you seen gun violence go up, you've seen life expectancy in the United States go down three years in a row. Life expectancy in the United States has gone down three years in a row. That hasn't happened anywhere else in the developed world and that hasn't happened in the United States in the last 100 years.

And what was happening 100 years ago? A world war, a plague. Those are the sort of things that reduce life expectancy.

Now, it's gun violence and another issue that we've talked a lot about on this show -- opioid overdose deaths. So those two things, in combination, have led to this -- I mean, it's disheartening that life expectancy continues to go down.

BERMAN: And again, I think the rise in suicides is something that needs to be addressed and needs to ask the big question why?

The U.S. admiral that took his own life in Bahrain a few weeks ago, which is tragic, and people said oh my gosh, this is so unusual. The truth is no, no, there's something happening and we've got to start paying attention to it.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you very, very much.

GUPTA: You got it. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: The president says he has a short list for the chief of staff position. Jeanne Moos has a list of a different kind. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:57:05] CAMEROTA: President Trump's search for a new chief of staff has come up empty so far, but the laughs about it keep coming. Here is Jeanne Moos.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the list of finalists to replace John Kelly shrinks --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Five people -- really good ones.

MOOS: -- the jokes expand.

JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, ABC "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!": Trump found out yesterday that his second pick, Colonel Sanders, isn't available.

TREVOR NOAH, HOST, COMEDY CENTRAL, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH TREVOR NOAH": So many Americans don't want this job. Trump might have to let a Mexican do it.

JIMMY FALLON, HOST, NBC "THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JIMMY FALLON": If anyone here wants to be President Trump's chief of staff just raise your hand and the job is yours.

MOOS: Sure, there've been volunteers.

Former baseball slugger, Jose Canseco pitched himself for the job in a tweet but probably won't get it after telling "little buddy," the president, "worried about you looking more like a Twinkie every day. I will buff you up -- daily workouts."

British commentator Piers Morgan also applied, promising that if the president is doing something dumb he would tell him.

PIERS MORGAN, BRITISH COMMENTATOR: And if you continue to do it, you're an idiot. Don't do it.

MOOS: Given the tone of the coverage --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He can't even get people on the D-list.

MOOS: -- no wonder the president is described as "super pissed."

SETH MEYERS, HOST, NBC "LATE NIGHT WITH SETH MEYERS": Apparently, he crossed his arms so hard that they went all the way around.

MOOS: He's been getting lots of unsolicited advice.

STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, CBS "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT": You know, he should try "Me Harmony."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have one word for him, Anderson -- Craig's List.

MOOS: But the president says --

TRUMP: We have a lot of people that want the job, chief of staff.

MOOS (on camera): Wow, discrimination. Why limit it to people?

MOOS (voice-over): Obama's official photographer suggested Bo, the dog. He's smart, doesn't leak in the Oval, has never talked to a Russian.

And a "New Yorker" cartoon recommended this Central Park mandarin duck, noting "His approval ratings are through the roof."

We did find one eager applicant using the Twitter name "No One." "No One" says, "I want to be Trump's White House chief of staff."

That takes guts, considering what's happened to the previous chiefs hired by the magician in the White House.

Jeanne Moos, CNN -- abracadabra -- New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: And, of course, that was that picture of John Kelly and Reince Priebus -- you know, once former chief of staff and soon-to-be former chief of staff.

There he is, you know, cheesing hard -- John Kelly. I'm going to keep using that phrase.

CAMEROTA: That is super cheesing.

BERMAN: He is cheesing hard. Have you ever seen a bigger smile than John Kelly, who'll be departing as chief of staff?

CAMEROTA: He looks really strangely happy. I wonder what that's about?

BERMAN: Michael Cohen is speaking out after -- for the first time since he was sentenced to three years in jail. Let's get right to the breaking news.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CAMEROTA: All right, good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Friday, December 14th, 8:00 now in the east.

And we begin with breaking news because Michael Cohen, President Trump's former lawyer -- now, as you know, a convicted felon -- he is breaking his silence for the first time this morning. These are his first public statements since being sentenced. It is an extraordinary new interview.

Michael Cohen contradicts the president. He says that Mr. Trump told him to make those illegal hush money payments.