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Government Shutdown Continues over Border Wall Funding; Mitt Romney Writes Op-Ed in "Washington Post" Critical of President Trump; Interview with Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 02, 2019 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it is still not clear who else is with him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can expect the president is going to come out with his tweets blazing on this one.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Trump has invited both parties to the White House.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't appear that either side really has an endgame in sight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not just a legislative battle at this point. This is a public relations battle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has painted himself into a corner here, and it's not clear how he gets out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota on John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning and welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Wednesday, January 2nd, 2019, 8:00 in the east. You know what they say?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: What?

BERMAN: Mitt happens. Mitt Romney, the one-time presidential nominee who will be sworn in as Utah's newest senator tomorrow, he is coming to Washington with a gift for the president, a scathing op-ed in "The Washington Post." This is what he wrote. "The Trump presidency made a deep descent in December." And there is more. Romney writes "The president has not risen to the mantle of the office." There is no love lost between these two. Romney once called Donald Trump a phony and a fraud whose promises were as worthless as a degree from Trump University, but the question is, what does the former governor and future senator want now? How far will he push the president from inside or maybe outside the Senate? Is he a possible primary challenge for President Trump?

CAMEROTA: Just throwing it out there, are you? You're just throwing that out there.

All right, President Trump is responding to Mitt Romney in a tweet, writing just moments ago, "Here we go with Mitt Romney, but so fast." Not so fast?

BERMAN: That's what he wrote.

CAMEROTA: All right. "Question will be, is he a flake?" I get it. "I hope not. Would much prefer that Mitt focus on border security and so many other things where he can be helpful. I won big and he didn't. He should be happy for all Republicans, be a team player, and win!"

All of this comes as the government shutdown hits day 12. At this hour President Trump and Congress are at an impasse, but President Trump has invited Congressional leaders to the White House this afternoon. CNN's Boris Sanchez is live at the White House with all the breaking details on this meeting. What do we expect, Boris?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, good morning, Alisyn and John. Yes, it is not clear how much this meeting is set up to accomplish. We are getting some breaking details of the set-up for this meeting, though. A source on Capitol Hill telling CNN that the meeting is going to take place this afternoon in a bit of an unexpected location in the Situation Room here at the White House. That's an area of the White House that's typically associated with monitoring and handling military conflicts, international crises. It just underscores the way that this administration feels about immigration.

As you know, the president has repeatedly referred to immigrants as invaders, to the migrant caravan as an invasion. Part of this meeting is going to be a briefing from the Department of Homeland Security on the issue of immigration, something that a Congressional source told CNN just a short while ago was likely going to be a stunt, not an attempt to actually bring up a discussion on how to solve the issue of immigration, the debate between the two sides, and how to reopen the federal government.

We should point out the last time that Democratic leaders were here at the White House, Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi made for quite an interesting moment with the president. But of course, the Situation Room is a secure area, so it's unlikely that cameras will be here for this morning.

All of this happening of course on the heels of this scathing op-ed from former governor and incoming senator Mitt Romney. Not really a new attack on President Trump from Mitt Romney. As John mentioned, he's called him a fraud and phony before. The two men have exchanged all sorts of words. The question here is really the timing, why Mitt Romney chose to take this stance to make his voice heard at this point one day before being sworn in as a Senate of the United States by none other than Vice President Mike Pence. That's likely to make for an awkward moment as well, John and Alisyn.

BERMAN: I suspect they will smile through it. Boris Sanchez for us at the White House, thanks so much.

Joining us now, McKay Coppins, staff writer for "The Atlantic," who has written extensively on Mitt Romney, Alexandra Pelosi, documentary filmmaker and my mentor, also Errol Louis, political anchor for Spectrum News and a CNN political commentator. McKay, I want to start with you because of everything you've written about Mitt Romney before. He knew that President Trump was going to have to respond to this because that's the way that President Trump works. And here we have the response from President Trump. "Question is, is he a flake," the president is asking about Mitt Romney, the reference there being to Jeff Flake, the outgoing senator from Arizona. Why do you think Mitt Romney did this?

MCKAY COPPINS, STAFF WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": This is an important point. When I talked to people about Mitt Romney, they would all say the same thing, which is that he wants to define himself as a senator by his own views, by his own agenda, not by his relationship to Donald Trump. But then he comes out with this op-ed just two days before being sworn in.

And as you point out, he knew that Trump would respond. He also knew how he would respond, more or less. This is a guy who has known Trump for a while. He knew that an attack on his character in the hated "Washington Post" would get under the president's skin, and he wrote it anyway.

[08:05:05] And what I've heard kind of talking to people around Romney is that he's come to terms with the fact that everyone in Washington when they get here is kind of sucked into the vortex of Trump to some extent. And he's not going to be able to duck and dodge and avoid questions about the president. So he set the scene right away, saying, look, I'm going to be an independent senator. I'm not going to be loyal foot soldier to this president. I'm going to be my own man. And I think that's the message he wanted to put out there with this op-ed.

CAMEROTA: Errol, it also sounds like something that for Mitt Romney December was a breaking point for him. In the op-ed he writes, I'll just read a portion, "The Trump presidency made a deep descent in December. The departures of Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and White House Chief of Staff John Kelly, the appointment of senior persons of lesser experience, the abandonment of allies who fight beside us, and the president's thoughtless claim that America has long been a sucker in world affairs, all defined his presidency down." And I just think that it's interesting because there's always been this contradiction of Republicans who say, well, we object to his style, but we really like his policies. And Mitt Romney this morning is saying not good enough.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's right. If there is going to be a conservative response to Trump, and remember, there were a lot of conservatives including "National Review" and other respected that were never really on board with Trump. And they warned about exactly these kinds of issues around temperament and style, vulgarity, and so forth, personal conduct. If they are going to have a resurgence, it's going to be led by people like Mitt Romney. That's partly how I read this.

As to why December, well, it was after the election. And it points to I think where things are going to head. When Donald Trump tweets this morning, hey, I won, and he didn't. "I won" is usually how he answers questions from within the Republican Party, within the conservative movement. He says I can win, and that's what counts. After November, after you lose 40 seats, after you lose control to a bunch of state houses, after you really get a thumping, it is maybe not so clear.

And part of what happens on November 8th is what you got from Mitt Romney. So he's clearly I think positioning himself coming from a state, by the way, that Donald Trump lost in the Republican primaries in 2016. Utah, he came in third behind John Kasich and Ted Cruz was the winner. So I think we're going to see, if there is going to be a real fight within the conservative movement, within the Republican Party against Trump, it's going to be along the lines of I think what Mitt Romney just said out.

BERMAN: Alexandra, it is so interesting that this comes out at the same time you have this piece you put together for "Vice" where you interviewed all kinds of outgoing members of Congress, the likes of which we've heard from before. And they are the ones who have had criticism of the president. They've all commented how uncomfortable the president's comments have made them in the past. What did you hear from them as they are going which might inform us as to why Mitt Romney is speaking today?

ALEXANDRA PELOSI, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: What I think is really interesting is, I like sucked into the vortex. Now Mitt Romney is being sucked into the vortex. I like the idea, Washington is an ecosystem, right? And there are rules. And first you have to play the game. Then you have to win the game, right. And so what my whole show is about is talking to members of Congress that can show us how the game is played. Washington has a certain game book that you have to follow. Mitt Romney has thrown that playbook out the window on his first day here, right. He's not even here, and he's already ripped up the play book.

So I think it is a really interesting conversation about how you play this game. Trump has completely destroyed all the rules of engagement. So there are no rules left. My 12-year-old would be more qualified to tell you about the rules of how Washington is played than this president. So it is an interesting moment in time where the rules of Washington are being completely rewritten of how the game the played. The reason I was here was to tell you about all I learned from -- I interviewed all the outgoing members of Congress about what they learned from being in Congress. If you knew now when you ran, there's a whole new crop of freshmen coming in, right. So the question is, what do they need to know, including Mitt Romney. He's new to Washington. It's different than being governor. It's different than running for president. It's a whole new game that you need to learn how to play. And so my show is just to teach all new members of Congress coming in how to play the game.

CAMEROTA: And can you boil that down to a headline of what rule they need to know most in this day and age? PELOSI: Be nice. Make friends. This is a town where you have to

make friends if you want to accomplish anything. You can go on Twitter and make enemies. That's easy. But it's true what they told about what you learn in Kindergarten. You have to make friends. You can't come in burning. You have to make some friends and get along if you want to accomplish anything -- if you want to accomplish anything. It is one thing about getting on CNN. That's one thing. You can be a show horse or a workhorse.

[08:10:04] If you want to get something accomplished, you have to actually make friends and try and accomplish -- if you want legislation passed that involves working with the other members of your party and with the other party. I know that sounds really elementary, but it seems like a lot of members of Congress don't even know that.

BERMAN: I am so confused these words you are speaking right now. My head can't take it. And McKay, Alexandra's mother is going to be in the Situation Room today with President Trump. We learned of this meeting that the president wants to hold with Congressional leaders to talk about negotiations to reopen the government. I'm struck by the fact that he's having it in the Situation Room. Clearly, he wants to create this dramatic setting. What are you expecting, some kind of an ambush here?

COPPINS: I think it's clear that President Trump is trying to message this as a national security issue, which is how he's always framed immigration, and that's probably part of why he's doing this. But the other thing here is that we're entering this new period of divided government where Democrats are going to control the House of Representatives. We've already had a fair amount of dysfunction. This is not even the first government shutdown in an era of unified Republican control of Congress and the White House. So I think there is more dysfunction to come.

But I also think the Democratic leaders, both in the Senate and the House, don't have a lot of incentive to show President Trump they can be easily pushed around by him, right? And so as people return from their vacations, plug back into the news a little bit more, as political heat about this shutdown intensifies, I think there is going to be a good amount of pressure on both parties to try to strike a deal. But I also think that Pelosi and Schumer aren't going to be quick to give in to President Trump's demands to fund a border wall. This is going to be -- there are going to be a lot of fights over the next two years and they are going to want to show that they can't be easily bullied into doing whatever President Trump wants.

CAMEROTA: Errol, I'm not even sure it is a border wall, still. We have been talking about how this is a moving target. Chuck Schumer said that negotiating with the president is like negotiating with Jell-O, because even the definition of a wall changes all the time. It started as a thousand miles of 32-foot cement wall. Then it became 700 miles. Then it went down to 500 miles. Then it was steel slats. Here is where the president head was yesterday, which I think gets to my point. "Border security and the wall "thing" and the shutdown is not where Nancy Pelosi wanted to start her tenure as speaker. Let's make a deal." Why didn't he say the wall thingy?

LOUIS: The president is looking for a way out of this. He is looking for a way to claim victory, and he'll need some small kind of something, whether it's a beaded curtain, as Nancy Pelosi put it, or slats.

CAMEROTA: A divider.

LOUIS: It could be anything. The reality is if you think back to when we overheard or we got access to the transcript of a conversation that he had with his Mexican counterpart a couple years ago, right, where he's saying, look, just say that we can do it. Give me something so I can go back to my supporters and say that we're making progress on the wall. Nancy Pelosi is much too sharp to be trimmed in that way. She is going to simply I think force him to acknowledge publicly at some point that he's not getting his wall. He's going to have to turn it into something else. He's going to have to calm down his base. He's going to have to take whatever small amount of money he might be able to wrest out of congress, and that's going to be it.

Let's hold out hope, by the way, Alisyn and Matt, that in the Situation Room that the professionals in the national security staff are going to make clear at least some facts on which they can agree about tunnels, about drones, about the numbers who are coming about, whether there is any kind of factual basis that they can all agree on. And then they'll get to the hard politics. But the hard politics are the president wants somebody to rescue him from this blind alley that he has walked down. He wants somebody to give him the victory. And we'll see if and how he gets anything out of all of this.

BERMAN: I love, Alexandra, how you sat here patiently and waited as we spoke about the incoming speaker of the House, who happens to be one of the people who raised you. But if you can tell us what Speaker Pelosi thinks about --

PELOSI: John, we had known you for two decades. Do you think I'm going to come on CNN and talk about my mother? Is that who you think I am?

BERMAN: I'm asking you, you are a fantastic political reporter. How does she approach meetings with President Trump, A? And, B, just what are your feelings about this person who you know quite well becoming speaker of the House for a second time?

PELOSI: She'll cut your head off and you won't even know you're bleeding. That's all you need to know about her.

(LAUGHTER)

PELOSI: No one ever won betting against Nancy Pelosi. She's persevered. You have to give her credit. No matter what you think offer, you have to give her credit, because, think about it, think about all those presidents she's endured, right? The Bush, the Bush, the Clinton. She's been through it all. So she's been around.

[08:15:01] This is not her first rodeo, as your friend George Bush would say.

So, she knows what she's doing. So, that should make you sleep at night knowing that at least somebody in this town knows what they're doing.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: How do you feel, given that this person whom you said will cut off your neck and you wouldn't even know you're bleeding, will be the speaker of the House for a second time tomorrow?

PELOSI: Well, I think it says a lot about if you look out into the crowd who you are going to see in that crowd. It's not just her, think about those women you're going to see. It's going to be -- you know, when Nancy Pelosi came to town, it was a boy's club. That was 30 years ago, a boy's club.

Look around tomorrow. It will be a whole new America. You are going to see something so magical that you have not seen before. I know Trump gets all the attention and his wall.

But if you think about it, when you think about how this country is changing fundamentally, when you look at who is representing us, it is going to be a beautiful menagerie -- is that a real word?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, well-played.

PELOSI: It is going to be a beautiful America. My 12-year-old would be proud. I got that off the twelve words every middle schooler should know.

It's going to be a beautiful America and I think we should all be proud of that, and we should just take one moment to exhale and say we should be proud of ourselves because we have a beautiful-looking Congress.

CAMEROTA: All right. Alexandra, Errol, McKay, thank you all very much for the reporting and the insights.

We have a programming note. Incoming Senator Mitt Romney will give his first live interview after that scathing op-ed on "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" today at 4:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

BERMAN: All right. President Trump will hold that meeting with congressional leaders in the Situation Room. Is the president using this dramatic backdrop to talk politics? What do the Democrats expect? We have a crucial member from the House Democratic leadership joining us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:20:01] BERMAN: All right. We have breaking news. The president has invited congressional leaders, bipartisan congressional leaders over to the White House for a meeting this afternoon, he says, to try to figure out a way to end the government shutdown. The breaking news is we learned this meeting will take place in the Situation Room.

So, why? What's the president trying to do here, create some sense of drama?

Joining us now is the incoming chair of the Democratic Caucus, member of House Democratic leadership, Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York.

Thanks so much for being with us. Congratulations on the new post. A powerful position.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D), NEW YORK: Thank you.

BERMAN: The Situation Room, the president wants congressional leaders to sit with him in the Situation Room. What do you think is going to happen in this meeting?

JEFFRIES: Well, it's s an interesting decision he's made to finally engage soon to be Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer in a dialogue, because several weeks have passed and we haven't heard anything from the White House in the midst of this reckless shutdown. We certainly need to have a mature conversation about our broken immigration system and figure out how we can fix it in a bipartisan and sustainable passion.

Hopefully, today will be the start of that mature conversation. But the first order of business has to be ending this reckless shutdown that is holding 800,000 hard working federal employees hostage.

BERMAN: So, you sound encouraged that this meeting is happening. Is that a fair assessment?

JEFFRIES: Well, it's a modest step in the right direction. I'm encouraged by the fact that tomorrow. Democrats are going to take control of the House of Representatives. Nancy Pelosi will be speaker, and our first order of business is going to be to take a step to end this reckless shutdown and then begin to do the business of the American people.

BERMAN: I have a good sense of what Democrats don't want in these negotiations. You do not want $5 billion for a concrete border wall. What do you want?

JEFFRIES: Well, in the bill that we're going to put on the floor tomorrow, we're going to allocate $1.3 billion in additional funding to allow for enhanced technology, cell phone towers, satellites, drones, enhanced fencing, increased communication capability, the things that the experts have said are necessary to improve border security.

We also want to make sure that we can conduct ourselves in a humane fashion on the border. Never again should we see two young innocent children killed on the border in U.S. custody.

BERMAN: You just said enhanced fencing. Let me read you. You said this before with Martha Raddatz on ABC. You said we're certainly prepared to provide additional funding for enhanced fencing, the things that experts say they want. At the end of the day, what is the difference between enhanced fencing

and a concrete wall? If you are willing to have, you know, smart, big fences with all kinds of technology, isn't there room to negotiate between that and concrete?

JEFFRIES: Well, there are areas along the border where there are currently fences that are put up or barriers that are put up that need to be enhanced and consistent with what the policy experts have said are helping to improve our security along the border.

What we're unwilling to do is to pay a $5 billion ransom note for a medieval border wall that Trump wants to put forward that he initially said, as you know, John, that Mexico would pay for. Mexico has not paid for it. The great deal maker has failed.

Then we've had two years where Republicans controlled the House, the Senate and the presidency, no border wall. So, why in the world would it be reasonable to expect at this time the American taxpayers would pay for a ridiculous border wall?

BERMAN: Mexico is not paying for the wall. That's why you are having these negotiations right now over $1.3 over $5 billion. I will stipulate that to be the case, period. We all know that.

However, you say additional funding. Does that mean more than $1.3 billion?

JEFFRIES: Right now, it's $1.3 billion, and here's why.

BERMAN: Right now, that --

JEFFRIES: In the previous year where Congress in a bipartisan way allocated $1.3 billion, the administration has only spent approximately 6 percent of that amount. So that's part of the reason why it is totally unreasonable for him to now shut down government, hold the American taxpayer hostage and want to extract through a ransom note billions of dollars in additional funding. We are prepared to provide additional funding, but there is no justification for the amount that is being requested.

BERMAN: And, again, he said in that last Oval Office meeting that he would own this shutdown, that he's willing to shutdown the border. Again, there is no argument about that. This was his decision. He backed out of the agreement. The Senate all approved that before.

I'm just trying to understand completely where Democrats are now about it. You indicated maybe there is some wiggle room about additional funding $1.3 billion ultimately. You also come out in support of enhanced fencing.

Does that mean any new fencing? Could you support any new fencing?

[08:25:00] JEFFRIES: Well, we will have to see what the particulars are as it relates to justification for enhanced additional fencing along a 2,000 mile border. But in terms of a political promise that Donald Trump made during the campaign and is trying to now extract from the American taxpayers, that's completely unreasonable. And the hope is really we can begin to focus on issues of importance for the American people connected to the agenda, which is what we want to begin to work on moving forward.

BERMAN: What about if the government is able to reopen even until February with some kind of continuing resolution? Would you be open to some kind of broader negotiation, which might include more money for either enhanced fencing or the president may say some barrier or wall and legal status for Dreamers or the undocumented workers of the country?

JEFFRIES: Well, we certainly need to resolve the issue with the Dreamers with a great deal of urgency. We can't do it in the context of the shutdown. And I do look forward to having that level of a mature conversation about bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform.

But in terms of any particulars, we've got 60 plus new members, young, dynamic, exciting, smart, getting ready to contribute. We've got to have a broader conversation with the House Democratic caucus before I can commit to anything particular.

BERMAN: Sixty new members, a lot of them young. This is your problem now as the incoming chair of the Democratic caucus. You will have to keep them in line.

"Politico" did a profile of you, a glowing profile which says that you could end up being the next speaker of the House, maybe even a presidential candidate at some time. You didn't want to weigh in on that, on the "Politico" interview. I'm assuming you don't want to weigh in on that now.

JEFFRIES: I'm looking forward to the job I currently have as caucus chair.

BERMAN: I was anticipating that dodge. However, in this interview, you did say you acknowledge that you felt that scrutiny of him and other younger members of the team is increasing as the audition to take over the caucus once Pelosi and her deputies finally move on. What is the increased scrutiny that you feel?

JEFFRIES: Well, I think I have now the responsibility to serve as the chair of the House Democratic Caucus, 235 strong. And part of the job I have been given will be to make sure we can continue to message with discipline, proceed with operational unity, legislate with precision and enact our for the people agenda where we're going to focus on lowering health care costs and protecting people with pre-existing conditions and enacting a real infrastructure plan, cleaning up corruption.

And so, I think all of us feel a sense of responsibility to deliver on those promises that we have made to the American people.

BERMAN: In your race for caucus chair, you ran against Barbara Lee. She -- there were those who said you are not as progressive as Barbara Lee. You are saying no one is as progressive as Barbara Lee. But you know there is tension between some of these new members and some of the people that have been around a long time.

How are you going to balance that?

JEFFRIES: Well, I think the House Democratic Caucus is a big tent and the beauty of what we represent is that we are authentically connected to the gorgeous mosaic of the American people. We are progressive, we have new Dems, we have blue dogs, but we're all committed to making sure that we fight to make life better for the middle class. That's going to unify us moving forward over the next two years.

BERMAN: Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, tomorrow, I will call you chairman of the House Democratic caucus. Thanks so much for being with us. Big few days ahead of you. Appreciate it.

JEFFRIES: Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: OK, John. President Trump starts the New Year facing mounting legal troubles. What is Robert Mueller's next move? Jeffrey Toobin joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)