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House Passes Bill To Reopen IRS And Other Agencies, White House Threatens Veto; President Trump Heads To Border As Shutdown Talks Fall Apart; Canadian Border May Pose Bigger Terror Threat Than Southern Border; CNN Reality Check: Interview with Rep Adam Kinzinger (R-IL). Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired January 10, 2019 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A Republican congressman is crossing party lines, voting to reopen parts of the government. We're going to ask him if he expects more of his colleagues to do the same, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Today, House Democrats are voting on the second of four funding bills aimed at reopening parts of the federal government. Yesterday, the House approved the first bill to fund the IRS and other financial agencies, which the White House has threatened to veto. During that vote, eight House Republicans broke ranks and voted with the Democrats on that bill.

Joining us now is one of them, Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois. Congressman, thank you so much for being with us.

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL), MEMBER, HOUSE FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: Good morning.

BERMAN: Why did you cast your vote to reopen or fund at least part of the government?

KINZINGER: Well, I think shutdowns are stupid. I think it's the dumbest way to do government in the world and people laugh at us when we can't get our act together. And we use shutdown as a way for leverage.

This goes to both sides, by the way. This isn't an attack on the president or just the Democrats.

I voted for this because I said look, I want to build a border wall. I support it, I voted for the money.

I think the president is right to say that if we're going to have a negotiation, Nancy Pelosi has got to get off her 'absolutely no wall' position because from that position it's untenable.

[07:35:03] But my view is when we can open parts of government and, in essence, kind of release hostages in this process -- in this really bad way of doing government -- I'll vote for it if the bill's agreeable. So for the next three bills that are going to come up, if they're

agreeable -- if they're close to what I believe should be the priorities, I'll vote for them. And if they're not, I'll vote against them. But I'm going to operate by looking at each bill on its merits.

BERMAN: Seven of your Republican colleagues in the House joined you. What's your message to the others? Do you think they should vote with you?

KINZINGER: No, I think everybody has to make that internal decision. I mean, I think there's no doubt that there is this idea that it's not going anywhere. I mean, the House is going to pass it and the Senate's not going to do anything with it, and it gets into the politics at that point. What gives the president more leverage? And I think people are right to vote their conscience on that.

For me, I just looked at it and said I represent 700 and some thousand people and I'm going to vote on the bill based on its merits. And the more hostages we can get out of the room in this terrible process of government, I'm going to do that. I'm going to vote for it.

BERMAN: It's been widely reported by everyone who was in that meeting that the president put his hand on the table -- either he slammed it or hit it -- walked out, and said bye-bye.

Is that an effective way to negotiate an end to this?

KINZINGER: No, and I also don't think, though, if it's true, that the president said hey, if I reopen government will you talk about a wall, and she goes absolutely not. That's not an effective way either.

And I think we have to be fair on this, which is the president has never said that he will not do Dreamers or not do DACA ever. Nancy Pelosi has said she will never do the wall, ever. If she can come off that position, I look at this and say this is an issue I think we can solve. We can get DACA and Dreamers, we can get the wall money done.

Immigration, honestly, is one of the easiest issues to solve out here if we would all get past our desire to give the other side no wins whatsoever.

We are like eight days into this new Congress and we're already in reelection mode. There's got to be a moment for God's sake so we can take even just a week and actually govern before we return to reelection politics.

BERMAN: I saw something which blew my mind yesterday which was that the Coast Guard -- the Coast Guard support organization put out tips to the Coast Guard members who --

KINZINGER: Yes.

BERMAN: -- who won't receive paychecks tomorrow and these are just some of them.

These people won't get paid so the Coast Guard had a suggestion to them if you need the money have a garage sale, sell unwanted items on the newspaper, babysit if you have to. You know, walk dogs if you have to.

The Coast Guard, for whatever reason, they took this down. I don't know if it was because it was embarrassing to have it out there.

But, Congressman, you're a lieutenant colonel in the Air National Guard. When you see this, what do you think?

KINZINGER: I think it's stupid. I mean, I think -- you know, look, it's -- they're all going to get paid. I want to be clear about that. When this ends they're going to get paid for these days, so they're not going to lose the money.

But it's obviously a cash flow issue and many people --

BERMAN: Yes.

KINZINGER: -- live paycheck-to-paycheck. This is not how the federal government should operate.

And again, in our broken political system -- and if you're sitting here saying well, it's the other side's fault -- it's the Republicans -- or you hear Republicans say it's the Democrats, you're the problem because the problem is it's everybody's fault.

This has started years ago. When we start using these stupid shutdown leverage points to try to get our way because we can't give the other side any kind of a win -- if we -- I get that there's issues that are like the holy grail out here and fight for those. But there are also issues that are really easy to solve and immigration is one of them.

But we're stuck here with we can't give the other side a win because it will help us in the next election. I think it's frustrating.

BERMAN: All right. I want to talk to you about Syria now which is an issue you care deeply about. And I learned for the first time yesterday you actually met with the president to talk about his decision to pull U.S. troops out of Syria.

The Secretary of State -- I'm not sure you've had a chance to hear this. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is in Egypt. He just gave a speech. This is what he said just a few minutes ago about pulling troops out of Syria.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: And it's possible to hold in your head the thought that we could withdraw our forces -- our uniformed forces -- from Syria and continue American's crushing campaign where we have taken down 99 percent of the caliphate in Syria and continue that. And we are intent upon that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: I honestly don't know where that leaves us now because initially, the president said we're pulling troops out of Syria now, then it became four months, then it became conditional on John Bolton's words. And now, Mike Pompeo is back to we can do it and still fight ISIS.

What do you think it is?

KINZINGER: Well, I think the president needs to put clear guidance out. I think there's an idea hub (ph) where he recognizes that look, withdrawing from Syria is a good plan but we need to do it in the right conditions. We need to make sure Iran's defeated.

We need to make sure our base in Tanf that is blocking the proverbial highway of resupply to the enemies of Israel, and continue to execute the fight against ISIS. I mean, ISIS will triple their numbers overnight if we leave and basically, declare victory without victory.

So, I think it's going to be the president having to put more guidance out. But my hope is this is -- and he deserves compliments for this -- is reassessing the idea of an immediate withdrawal and saying that wouldn't be right.

You know, we'll have to see. The proof is in the pudding. But I'll tell you, just leaving Syria all of the sudden will be the biggest boon to ISIS in a long time.

BERMAN: I think we're all waiting to hear from him directly on it --

KINZINGER: Yes.

BERMAN: -- because we've heard things that confuse the matter from John Bolton and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.

[07:40:01] Last question, again, on something I just learned yesterday. In this "BuzzFeed" lawsuit over the Steele dossier --

KINZINGER: Yes.

BERMAN: -- which was part of the investigation or whatnot into Russian meddling, it's reported that you got a copy of this dossier in the fall -- late fall-early winter of 2016. You were on the first people to get it.

Explain this and what you did with it.

KINZINGER: Yes. Thank you for asking me about it because this has been like on the Internet troll kind of thing.

About a few hours before this was released on "BuzzFeed," I was handed a copy of the dossier. I looked at it and put it away. I never met Christopher Steele. There's implications that somehow I got it from Christopher Steele.

I think there was an attempt to before this came out on "BuzzFeed" to disseminate this as widely as possible and I happened to be in the crossfire of that. So, I obviously didn't do anything with it. There's no conspiracy

here. But the person who did it named me in a lawsuit because he remembered having given it to me in a deposition and that's how that came out. But any idea of a conspiracy of me being involved is ludicrous and silly.

BERMAN: And do you have any sense why it was you or one of the people who was given it?

KINZINGER: No, no idea. I just -- I think they were trying to push this thing out as widely as possible. And I happen to know the guy that was doing it from prior stuff in foreign policy and I think he just came by and goes here you go. Three hours later, it's out on "BuzzFeed."

BERMAN: So you never had a chance to give it to anybody else or --

KINZINGER: No, and I never would have. No, no -- absolutely not.

BERMAN: Adam Kinzinger, congressman from Illinois, thanks for joining us this morning and talking about a range of subjects. Appreciate it.

KINZINGER: Yes, you bet. Take care.

BERMAN: Alisyn --

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right.

CNN is at the southern and northern borders of the United States this morning. So do people living there think there is a crisis that requires a border wall -- or any crisis? We talk to them, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:45:25] CAMEROTA: President Trump heads to the southern border today to make his case for a border wall. McAllen, Texas is the area with the most illegal crossings in the country.

And, CNN's Polo Sandoval talked to people who live there and he joins us live now. Polo, what did they tell you? Polo, can you hear us?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the south Texas city of McAllen, most people we talked to disagree with the president about his proposed border barrier.

Ahead of Trump's arrival, the mayor feels like most do in this Democratic stronghold, that the wall is not the answer to the country's immigration problem. He also says the real crisis is not happening here.

MAYOR JIM DARLING, MCALLEN, TEXAS: The crisis over -- is really over for them when they hit the border and they can seek asylum. The crisis for them in their home country in the journey across Mexico is over. SANDOVAL: Since 2014, Mayor Jim Darling's McAllen has become the epicenter of the border debate. It's where the tens of thousands of undocumented families apprehended in the region by border patrol are released with future immigration court dates.

After their release, illegal asylum seekers make their way into Sister Norma Pimentel's humanitarian respite center.

SISTER NORMA PIMENTEL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CATHOLIC CHARITIES OF THE RIO GRANDE VALLEY: The crisis is a crisis that we create when we don't facilitate a safe passage for families who are innocent children, moms, infants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, sister.

PIMENTEL: Hi, there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you?

SANDOVAL: As an opponent to Trump's border barrier, she's among the majority in this predominantly Democratic region of a red state.

But upriver from McAllen, Ruperto Escobar supports not only building Trump's wall but letting it cut through his 600-acre ranch.

RUPERTO ESCOBAR, SUPPORTS BUILDING OF BORDER WALL: In my opinion, nothing has changed other than him -- and I'm talking about the president -- not being able to find a way to get it done.

SANDOVAL: For Escobar, a Trump supporter, it's about securing the rugged south Texas ranchland that's been in his family since 1767. He says he's seen the influx of people and drugs crossing the border illegally firsthand.

ESCOBAR: One night, two men -- two armed men stood right in front of that gate right there -- the last gate we passed by, and they stopped my men from coming to shut down the pump. They told him we're going to shut the pump down -- leave it. We need this place. This place is ours tonight.

What were they going to do with it if they were armed like? They were passing -- they were going to smuggle drugs or humans.

I have no idea. I didn't come to check. It's not my part. It's my government's duty to secure my border.

SANDOVAL: Escobar believes the wall is a solution, but that opinion isn't a popular one. The mayor of McAllen says given the vast majority of people coming across the border or who are legally seeking asylum, there is no simple solution.

DARLING: We all agree national security is important, border security is important. We live on the border and we think it is important. But living on the border you realize there's different ways of accomplishing that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL (on camera): In addition to what you just heard here, I can tell you after growing up and working here, this is certainly not that usually that friendly territory that the president is used to traveling to make his pitches to the public. As you just heard, there are many people -- not all -- that just do not see eye-to-eye with the president's policies.

We did find out that Sister Pimentel, who you just heard from, was considered by many here as the leading humanitarian dealing with this. She will have a seat at the roundtable today with President Trump. Of course, she plans to express how she feels about this all to the president -- mainly, that this is a humanitarian crisis, John.

BERMAN: Polo Sandoval for us in McAllen, Texas.

We're going to do something interesting now. We're going to from the southern border to the northern border. Why? Because people close to the president in the White House have been trying to stir up threats of terror crossings in the south. But we're going to talk about the security situation in the north.

Alex Marquardt is in Derby Line, Vermont. Oh man, does that look beautiful. Alex is in Derby Line, Vermont -- Alex.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is absolutely stunning, John.

And experts will tell you that if there is a border that is more problematic when it comes to terrorism, where there's a greater potential for terror -- terrorists to get into the United States -- it is not that southern border. It is here on the northern border.

And you can see right here, very easily, why. This is the border. You can see here it says the United States; on the opposite side it says Canada. I'm not going to cross it.

That house right there, that's in Canada. This is a library right here and we went inside and there's actually a line of tape that cuts through the middle. One side is Canada, the other side the United States.

[07:50:02] People from this Canadian neighborhood can come and use that library without going through any sort of customs.

And, in fact, John, my producer Julie and I were driving around yesterday and we accidentally crossed that border into Canada unbeknownst to us. When we came back we got stopped by border patrol and had to show our passports.

But let's break down some of the figures for our viewers to show why this border might be more problematic.

First of all, the border in the south with Mexico is far shorter -- about half. It's just over 1,900 miles long. The border here with Canada is almost 4,000 miles long, so double that distance. And that does not include the border between Alaska and Canada.

And then when you look at the number of people who have been apprehended on the terror watch list, in the fiscal year of 2018 -- so that runs from October 2017 for a year -- down on the southern border around a dozen people on the terror watch list were apprehended, while in the first half of that period some 41 people. So more than triple who were stopped here on the northern border. And those -- that second figure is according to NBC News.

But when you talk to people in this neighborhood who have family and friends on the opposite side of the border, they say that they feel perfectly secure. That border patrol is doing their job. That they don't need any more -- any kind of structure or any kind of wall to keep them safe.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DENNIS ROBERTS, LIVES ON THE UNITED STATE-CANADIAN BORDER: Well, we've got a lot of people trying to cross but they don't make it very far.

MARQUARDT: There's no fence, though. There's no wall.

ROBERTS: No.

MARQUARDT: Do you feel like that's needed?

ROBERTS: No, no. I don't think it's needed down there either but that's just my opinion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: And, Alisyn, these are, of course, people who live across from a country that has seen some terror incidents in the past -- that have seen cells -- terror cells broken up. But, of course, they do not say that any sort of that -- more security is needed -- that any sort of structure is needed.

And, in fact, many of them find the concept of a wall on the southern border to be, in the words of one person, quite silly -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Well, Alex, just really interesting context. Really interesting context to try to define what the risk is, how people feel about a risk.

Thank you very much for standing in the beautiful snow for us in Vermont.

All right, it's day 20 of the government shutdown and at this hour there's no end in sight. But, John Avlon has found immigration issues on which both sides actually agree. He's going to tell us about that in our next reality check.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [07:56:25] CAMEROTA: Well, it's hard to remember now but it was not that long ago when President Trump could have gotten everything he wanted at the border and more. So why did he pass on that $25 billion deal?

CNN senior political analyst John Avlon has it all for us in our reality check. Hi, John.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hey, Ali.

So here we are just two days away from the longest shutdown in American history. And if you were thinking that Washington would step up and move past sandbox politics -- well, get ready to face-palm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: We saw a temper tantrum. He sort of slammed the table. He just walked out and said we have nothing to discuss.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: The president then turned to the speaker. She raised her hand and said, "No, not at all."

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The president walked in the room and passed out candy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: Great job, everybody.

Look, we've got grudges and complaints galore but solutions seem in short supply. So let's go there and look at the border security and immigration reform policies that both parties have backed in the recent past to see if we can find some common ground. And you don't even have to go that far back.

Almost exactly one year ago today, President Trump told lawmakers that his goal was to sign comprehensive immigration reform. And just a few weeks later there was a bipartisan Senate bill that offered $25 billion in border security -- nearly five times what the president wants today -- including, quote, "physical barriers, fencing, tactical infrastructure, technology, and personnel."

What's different is that the bill and a competing conservative version included a pathway to citizenship for one 1.8 million Dreamers. They were hot-policy debates, but there were carrots and sticks designed to appeal to both Democrats and Republicans.

Then, President Trump blew up the bill he backed under pressure from anti-immigration advisers -- I'm looking at you, Stephen Miller -- and the right-wing media.

Now, Democrats control the House. Their leverage has increased. But, President Trump is pushing a one-sided version of compromise that doesn't reflect political reality. But as Trump points out, Democrats have supported a border fence in

the past, but Sen. Schumer, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton all backing the 2006 Secure Fence Act which led to a decline in border arrests. And yes, John Berman's favorite chart.

And in 2013, more than a dozen Republican senators voted for an Obama- era immigration reform. It increased border security by $46 billion and provided a pathway to citizenship in exchange for, in President Obama's words, quote "passing a background check, learning English, paying taxes and a penalty, and then going to the back of the line behind everyone who's playing by the rules and trying to come here legally."

House Republicans refused to even consider a vote on it.

Look, I wish I could say anything resembling confidence that Donald Trump would see the opportunity to go big here and pull a Nixon and China on immigration reform. But it's clear that any progress on border security is going to depend on a balanced plan.

Now, Republicans could point with some satisfaction to this 2000 speech by Sen. Schumer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHUMER: The American people will never accept immigration reform unless they truly believe that their government is committed to ending future illegal immigration. And any successful compressive immigration reform bill must recognize this fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: And, Democrats can point to Donald Trump's past support for comprehensive immigration reform and ample evidence that he employs undocumented workers at his resorts. Physician, heal thyself. And, Washington, stop fighting and start fixing.

And that's your reality check.

BERMAN: Yes, you have a big electric wall there but we have paper and it's the same chart. It's the same chart.

AVLON: Ooh. That's your favorite chart in the world.

CAMEROTA: He'll do anything to use that chart.

BERMAN: I'm just saying.

CAMEROTA: I know.

BERMAN: John, it's a great point, though. This deal has been -- versions of this deal have been out there for years.

AVLON: We can do this.

BERMAN: All right, thanks, John. CAMEROTA: Thank you.

AVLON: Thanks, guys.

CAMEROTA: All right, a shutdown stalemate. What will happen today? We have the latest for you right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHUMER: We saw a temper tantrum.