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Lockhart and Starr Debate 20 Years Later; Sen. Angus King (I) Maine is Interviewed about the Manafort Sentencing; Rep. Brad Wenstrup (R) Ohio is Interviewed about Jobs Numbers, Trade and Budget Deficits and Manafort Sentence. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired March 08, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Or we're looking at these investigations. I think people are tribal and they've made up their minds. People like me, who oppose the president, but might defend him here or there. We are irrelevant. We are the minority.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Oh, contraire.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: No.

CAMEROTA: Contraire.

CUPP: No, I heard that message loud and clear. We are not -- we are no longer the party. But I think -- think we're the minority. And I think most people are just sunk in.

BERMAN: One legal point -- I won't replay the sound because we don't have time, Jeffrey, it was interesting to hear Judge Starr say that he does not agree with the Justice Department guidelines that a sitting president can't be indicted.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, his staff researched that and came to an opposite conclusion. I actually think the Justice Department policy is right. I don't think under Article Two of the Constitution you can indict a sitting president. I don't think it is -- it would -- it is permissible that, you know, a -- someone elected by the entire country can sit there in court every day listening to evidence against him.

But, you know, this is a live constitutional debate. You know, again, you know, you have a conservative like Ken Starr, someone who generally believes in broad executive power, concluding that at that time that a president can be indicted. Again, you know, we always see these facts through political lens.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Can I -- can I just --

BERMAN: Very quickly, David, we're just about out of time.

GREGORY: All right. Well, maybe -- I just quickly for Jeffrey, do you think that if we look at, you know, where an investigation starts, the fact that it lead to Monica Lewinsky and perjury, is that, in your judgment, fundamentally wrong and is there a -- is there an analog that you're seeing so far on the Trump side?

TOOBIN: No, I don't think it's wrong. I mean I think prosecutors are entitled and indeed obligated to follow evidence where it leads and you could see how Whitewater turned into Monica Lewinsky. How that investigation was handled is a separate -- is a separate question, but I don't think it's (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: Can I just tell you, we've been waiting for a statement from the president of the United States on the Manafort sentence yesterday. We now have it.

Both the judge and the lawyer in the Paul Manafort case stated loudly and for the world to hear that there was no collusion with Russia. But the witch hunt hoax continues as you now had these statements to House and Senate Intelligence and Senator Burr. So bad for our country.

CUPP: No surprise that's what he heard.

TOOBIN: Yes. I mean --

GREGORY: Yes.

TOOBIN: You know, we didn't have a chance to talk about it. I mean the disgrace of how Judge Ellis handled this case from the day of the indictment all the way through is pretty extraordinary. But it is, you know, it is good fodder for the president, and, you know, he is wise to cite it because it's helpful to his position.

BERMAN: All right, that just raises so many more questions.

TOOBIN: Yes, I know.

BERMAN: We'll have to wait for some of the answers.

TOOBIN: Some other time.

BERMAN: Jeffrey Toobin, David Gregory -- thank you, David.

GREGORY: Thank you.

BERMAN: S.E., always great to see you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, guys.

BERMAN: Be sure to watch "S.E. Cupp Unfiltered" tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. Eastern.

CAMEROTA: All right, outrage from some after Paul Manafort gets less than four years in prison for tax evasion and bank fraud. So, we've just heard from the president. Does he plan to pardon his former campaign chairman? We'll discussion that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:36:01] CAMEROTA: The former Trump campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, will serve less than four years in prison for financial crimes that include cheating on his taxes and bank fraud. Sentencing guidelines in Virginia called for 19 to 24 years.

Joining us now is independent Senator Angus King. He serves on the Senate Intel and Armed Services Committees.

Senator, thank you very much for being here.

How did you see the Manafort sentencing of less than four years in prison?

SEN. ANGUS KING (I), MAINE: Well, I have to tell you, if I was on the jury in that case, I'd be scratching my head this morning and say, why did they take, you know, months out of my life for this. He was found guilty after a trial on eight felonies stretching back a number of years. He didn't cooperate. He -- and, most shockingly to me yesterday, he didn't express any remorse. His remorse seemed to be about getting caught, not about what he did. And he -- you know, some of the people he defrauded, Alisyn, were you and I. he defrauded the United States government out of $6 million on his taxes.

I just find it an astonishing sentence and I can assure you that every defense lawyer is America is now going through cases and we're going to be hearing -- we're going to be flooded with stories in the next 24 hours about people with relatively minor offenses selling an ounce of marijuana or, you know, stealing quarters from a laundry room with an equal of greater sentences.

This is an issue that I think needs to be discussed generally, the disparity between the penalties for white collar crime and what I would call street crime.

CAMEROTA: Yes. In fact, Senator Elizabeth Warren has already tweeted to that effect.

But in terms of what you were saying where he didn't express any remorse, do you think that he was intentionally setting himself up for a potential pardon from the president?

KING: Well, that's really hard to say. But, you know, the president's reaction that you just read before the break about, you know, no collusion, this trial wasn't about collusion. In fact, that was the other thing that surprised me. The judge gratuitously made that comment yesterday from the bench when the trial had nothing to do with it. And I don't know what the judge was talking about or why he would make such a statement.

This case doesn't prove there's no collusion because that wasn't the subject of the trial. So I think, you know, a -- the president has the absolute power to pardon. There's no question. But the question then becomes, what's the intent? What's behind it? Is there a corrupt intent?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KING: Clearly I think everybody would say, well, the president can't issue a pardon if he's paid 100,000. So if the president's issuing a pardon because he thinking it will keep him out of trouble himself, that's getting close to the line.

CAMEROTA: Senator, I want to ask you about something that troubles you, and that is, as you know the president has a habit of de- legitimatizing things that he doesn't like, or that he doesn't agree with, from the FBI, to the press. And now you worry that he is already planting the seeds to de-legitimatize the outcome of the 2020 election if he were to lose.

Here's something that he tweeted last month. He said, the Democrats in Congress yesterday were vicious and totally showed their cards for everyone to see. When the Republicans had the majority, they never acted with such hatred and scorn! The Dems are trying to win an election in 2020 that they know they cannot legitimately win.

What do you hear there?

KING: Well, he's said that and he said it during the last campaign, but he said it even more explicitly in the last few days about, if he loses it's rigged.

Alisyn, I can't tell you how concerning that is. One of the fundamental premises of our system is the peaceful transfer of power. That's what distinguishes us from most other societies and civilizations in the last 10,000 years. It's a precious part of it. And for him to say, if I don't win it's rigged or to de-legitimize the election is really troubling.

Plus, it's a gift to Putin. This is -- this is exactly what the Russians want to do is divide us and de-legitimatize democracy. That's their whole game plan. And to -- for the president so say something like that -- and let's say only 1 percent of his base acts on it. The danger is violence. One percent of the president's base is probably a million people. You've got a million people who are feeling the president is telling them this isn't legitimate, you better take up arms.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

[08:40:24] KING: This is -- this is one of the most dangerous things I think that is -- has happened during this extraordinary period.

CAMEROTA: I think it's really important that you are pointing this out, that that peaceful transfer of power should be sacrosanct.

We only have five seconds, but this is really a burning question, Nickelback, friend or foe?

KING: Yes, Alisyn, I have a question for you.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KING: Really? Nickelback? Come on.

CAMEROTA: Yes, senator. Yes. This is what the Congress took up yesterday, as you know. Senator Angus King, I'm going to -- I'm going to go with that meaning you have it on your play list. So, thank you very much for being on NEW DAY?

John.

BERMAN: Political posturing there from Senator King of Maine there at the end, piling on Nickelback.

Was the judge too lenient on Paul Manafort with this sentence? We're going to get reaction from a Republican in Congress, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: We have a little breaking news on the economic front.

New numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics on jobs here. Last month just 20,000 new jobs created in the U.S. economy. That is a very low number. The lowest in a long, long time. You can see right there.

The last few months, the last few years, frankly, a jobs machine in the United States. But February, not strong at all. The unemployment rate did tick down to 3.8 percent as fewer people were looking for work.

[08:45:11] Joining me now, Republican member of Congress, Brad Wenstrup of Ohio. He's on the Intelligence and Ways and Means Committee.

Congressman, you're getting this jobs news at the same time I am.

REP. BRAD WENSTRUP (R), OHIO: Correct.

BERMAN: I know you would like to see a higher number than 20,000 for February jobs created.

WENSTRUP: Well, we've certainly been on a role as a nation. Fortunately, we've seen unemployment going down and we've seen jobs being created. You know, as a former employer, I think sometimes as you're growing your business, and maybe as a nation, that's where we are. We've got to take a deep breath and allow yourself to do that.

But, certainly, I'd rather see jobs created than jobs lost. But I -- but we'll always try to seek to get higher numbers. That's part of what we're here to try and accomplish for the American people.

BERMAN: And you and I will both be digging through these numbers after this segment --

WENSTRUP: Sure.

BERMAN: To find out what exactly the case is there.

When we're talking about the economy, there were some pretty glaring numbers about the budget and the budget deficit. The shortfall in revenue is actually up about 2 percent. About 2 percent less revenue collected in the first quarter of this year. And the deficit up 77 percent over last year. Does this concern you?

WENSTRUP: It concerns me greatly. It has, and it's part of why I first ran for office. You know, the reality of things that we face today are in our mandatory spending. You know, most people hear about, and we talk about, discretionary spending and how we're going to spend money there. The mandatory spending has to be addressed.

Fifty years ago it was about 34 percent of the budget. Today it's about 70. And they predicted in 2030 that it's going to be all of our budget, which would cut out our military, our roads and infrastructure, the National Institutes of Health, education, all these things that we value so much. So, really, to be realistic, both sides of the aisle have to get together and say, to be truthful, we have to start looking at mandatory spending, as well as this strategy.

BERMAN: And spending is part of this. Mandatory spending is part of it. Discretionary spending is part of it. Spending is up. But revenue is down. You're bringing in less money and the tax cut is part of that.

WENSTRUP: Well, I believe last year revenues started to increase and that actually things like Medicare and Social Security were -- were being (INAUDIBLE) --

BERMAN: It's down -- it's down 2 percent October to January. Those are the numbers just out yesterday. Revenues down just about 2 percent. So you are bringing in less among.

WENSTRUP: Well, that's a concern. And we'll see how it plays out throughout the year, especially as we go to -- into our tax season.

BERMAN: I want to get your reaction to the sentence yesterday from Judge T.S. Ellis, Paul Manafort, 47 months in prison, far less than the recommended sentence of 19 to 24 years.

Your take on that?

WENSTRUP: Well, first of all, I'm a doctor, and I'm not an attorney or a judge. I would have to really sit down -- and you talk about looking at numbers -- and really see, is this inconsistent with other --

BERMAN: Huh?

WENSTRUP: Is this consistent with crimes like this and the sentencing that has taken place.

BERMAN: OK, so that is something you want to look at there. That's noted.

You are on the Intelligence Committee, which has heard testimony this week and last week from Michael Cohen. I know Republicans -- and I'm sure you're one of them -- have questions about whether Michael Cohen lied under oath to the Oversight Committee when he said that he never asked for a pardon, correct? Do you think he lied?

WENSTRUP: Well, I -- I can't tell right off the bat whether he lied, but there certainly is concern. He said he would never -- I believe, and I'm paraphrasing, he said he would never ask for a pardon, but then we've seen reports where he supposedly had asked for a pardon. So that remains to be seen. And I think that we should get to the bottom of that. We --

BERMAN: Have you seen evidence though -- OK, we'll stipulate there are serious questions about whether Michael Cohen lied to Congress when he said he never asked for a pardon. Now his lawyer says, what he meant to say was, never asked for a pardon after his new legal representation came on. Leave that aside.

There's also testimony now, and reporting, that lawyers connected to the president, and in some cases working for the president, we're discussing this issue. Is it of concern to you that there were even discussions about a possible pardon?

WENSTRUP: Well, it depends on how those discussions took place, I guess. I don't know. I wasn't there, obviously, and neither were you. But, at the same time, was it Michael Cohen saying, hey, is there any chance I can get a pardon? I don't know what conversation took place.

I will tell you that the interviews that we had with Michael Cohen this past week, I hope you can get the whole transcription from that.

BERMAN: Me too.

WENSTRUP: I think the American people would like to see it. I'm sure you would too.

BERMAN: Last question to you, congressman, because I know you care deeply about the Warmbier family being from Ohio.

WENSTRUP: Yes, sir.

BERMAN: The president, last week, when he was in North Korea, taking Kim Jong-un's word, making a point of saying, I don't think Kim Jong- un knew about Otto Warmbier's treatment? Do you think Kim Jong-un knew and do you appreciate the president saying that in front of the world?

WENSTRUP: Well, I -- I have deep respect for the Warmbier family, as you can understand, and worked with them closely. We're all saddened by this tragic event, obviously. This's no doubt about it that the Kim Jong-un regime was behind this. Maybe it wasn't supposed to happen that way, I don't know, but there's no doubt about it that, you know, the buck stops at the top and he should be held accountable and responsible in some way, shape or form. Whether it happened with him knowing or not, that I don't know, but I do feel that he and his regime are fully responsible.

[08:50:20] BERMAN: Congressman Brad Wenstrup, thank you for being with us this morning covering a range of subjects.

WENSTRUP: You bet.

BERMAN: I appreciate it.

WENSTRUP: You bet. Thank you.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, John, just moments ago, an unmanned space capsule splashed down on earth. We'll tell you --

BERMAN: Really?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: Who was in it?

CAMEROTA: I'll tell you all about it.

BERMAN: Oh, I guess it's unmanned.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

Thanks for ruining the surprise, John.

BERMAN: I know. I know.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right, it's time now for the "5 Things to Know for Your New Day."

Number one, breaking news, the Labor Department releasing the new jobs report. Just 20,000 jobs were created in February. That's the fewest since September 2017. The unemployment rate fell to 3.8 percent as fewer unemployed people actually looked for work.

[08:55:08] CAMEROTA: President Trump's former campaign chairman Paul Manafort sentenced to nearly four years in prison, well below sentencing guidelines that call for 19 to 24 years.

BERMAN: President Trump's long-time lawyer Michael Cohen is suing the Trump Organization. Cohen claims the company broke its promise to pay his work-related legal bills after he began cooperating with federal prosecutors.

CAMEROTA: Moments ago Elon Musk's unmanned SpaceX capsule crashing down on Earth after a brief stop at the International Space Station. NASA hopes to resume human space flight from U.S. soil later this year.

BERMAN: Demonstrations and celebrations taking place all around the world for International Women's Day. This year's theme calls for a more gender balanced world.

CAMEROTA: And you and I are wearing purple as a result.

BERMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: For more on the "5 Things to Know," go to cnn.com/newday for all the latest. BERMAN: All right, we've covered a lot.

CAMEROTA: I feel we've really put in our time today.

BERMAN: Nevertheless, there is breaking news.

The jobs report, a really strangely low number. We need to find out much more about that.

Plus, the president's new response to the Paul Manafort sentencing. That's all next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:00] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Friday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Poppy has the day off.

It is a busy news day on this Friday.

President Trump about to leave the White House to survey tornado damage in Alabama.

END