Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Trump Administration Strives to Block Congressional Inquiries; Pompeo's Moscow Trip Canceled as He Meets with European Allies on Iran; Rep. Dan Kildee (D-MI) is Interviewed about Committee's Effort to Obtain Trump's Taxes. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired May 13, 2019 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are seeing a breakdown. There is a failure to respect the significance of Congress's duty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[07:00:08] ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Good morning. And welcome to your NEW DAY.

We begin with breaking news and what appear to be increasingly urgent international situations, particularly U.S. tensions with Iran that seem to be ratcheting up. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo abruptly cancelled a trip to Moscow today. Instead, he just landed in Brussels to meet with the foreign ministers of the U.K., Germany and France to talk about Iran.

This comes as the U.S. deploys more Patriot request missiles. A new deployment of Patriot missiles to the Middle East. Pentagon officials say intelligence reports indicate that Iran and its proxies could be planning to threaten U.S. forces -- forces and interests in the region. The secretary still plans to fly to Sochi tomorrow to meet with Vladimir Putin.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Meanwhile in Washington, the White House stonewalling continues. President Trump and his allies are blocking more than 20 congressional investigations.

House Democrats are frustrated by what they call the unprecedented lack of cooperation. And they're discussing fining or even jailing Trump officials who do not comply with subpoenas.

So let's about it. Let's bring in David Gregory, CNN political analyst; Margaret Talev, Bloomberg News senior White House correspondent and CNN political analyst; and Seung Min Kim, White House reporter for "The Washington Post" and CNN political analyst.

OK, guys. Just to remind everybody what some of these 20 investigations are, because you can be forgiven for losing the thread of where we are with some of these. Let's put this up on the screen. I know it's hard to see, because there are so many.

But there are things -- there are still -- they're still investigating whether there's been a violation of the Emoluments Clause, with the president's businesses. They're still looking into the hush money payments to Stormy Daniels. They're still looking into what went so wrong with the family separation policy, where kids were taken from their parents; with security clearances that weren't supposed to happen; with Puerto Rico and the lax response that led to 3,000 people dying. I mean, these are just a few of these.

And basically, Seung Min, are they saying that -- well, I mean, it's the White House's position. "Well, we've already talked about all this. We don't need to provide any more information"?

SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: That and they're also saying these investigations are politically motivated, that Democrats don't have a legitimate legislative purpose in seeking documents, briefings, information about all of these information [SIC].

But you're right that the breadth of congressional investigations that we looked at, launched by House Democrats since the beginning of the year, is just -- just striking. I mean, and a lot of these -- a lot of our focus lately has been on issues stemming from the Mueller report. You know, Don McGahn's testimony. Obviously, there was a lot of news on the tax returns last week.

But again, if you look at that graphic that you just put up, a lot of these issues really do deal with policy. Democrats want to know whether -- or what was the decision-making behind the administration's decision not to defend the Affordable Care Act. They're still investigating the roots of the family separation policy.

And I want to also note, with the Puerto Rico investigation, that actually stems from a bipartisan request that House Republicans and Democrats had made to DHS and FEMA all the way back in 2017. So these are -- these are answers that Democrats and some Republicans have been seeking for a long time.

But the White House and the White House allies say this is not oversight. Lindsey Graham told me oversight is one thing; revenge is another.

BERMAN: So Seung Min, you know, yes, the number of House investigations is large. But the breadth of White House defiance is unprecedented. And I would like to quote to you, Seung Min, from an article written by Seung Min Kim of "The Washington Post."

You quote Kerry Kircher, who served as a House council for the last GOP majority. She said the standoff marks "a complete breakdown and complete obstruction of Congress's role. If the court signs -- signs off on this stuff, then we'll have an imperial presidency. We'll have a presidency that will be largely unchecked." That sounds like a dire warning there, Seung Min. KIM: Exactly. And I think that's another reason why House Democrats

are so insistent on pursuing these investigations. Because they don't want to set a standard for future presidencies, where the Congress is essentially diminished by the executive branch. And I think that's another element that's playing a role in whether -- whether the House will actually impeach the president.

We all know that, if the House pursues impeachment proceedings, that the Republican-controlled Senate will almost certainly not convict the president. However, an increasing number of House Democrats are saying that's not a good enough excuse to not proceed with impeachment proceedings if we feel the president deserves to be impeached. And they don't want to set that standard for future administrations.

CAMEROTA: Before they get to impeachment, David, different committees are still looking into things. You know, the president's position seems to be, "Well, we've cooperated for 18 months with Robert Mueller. We're done. You have everything you need."

But of course, that investigation only raised more questions. I mean, it raised more questions than it answered, frankly. And some of the things, for instance, is that Don Jr., the president's son, did testify.

But there were inconsistencies in his testimony. And when other witnesses came, now investigators are trying to figure out who was telling the truth.

And so the Senate Intel Committee, Republican-led, wants to hear from Don Jr., again. They are subpoenaing Don Jr. And Lindsey Graham, one of the president's most ardent supporters, said over the weekend that they should stop that. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): As I understand it, this subpoena relates to what Michael Cohen said about some meetings and about the -- the Trump Tower in Russia. And if I were Donald Trump Jr.'s lawyer I would tell him, "You don't need to go back into this environment anymore. You have been there for hours and hours and hours. And nothing being alleged here changes the outcome of the Mueller investigation." I would call it a day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: How's that going to go over, David?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, with his Republican colleague who's the one who issued the subpoena, Richard Burr, I don't think so well. And I think Senator Graham ought to really think back to his own position around congressional oversight and his involvement in impeachment proceedings and ask himself, what's happened to him and his view of what Congress's role is. Because it's ridiculous.

You know, the problem with all of this is that there's an absolute right and obligation for Congress to do its job. That seems to be what's at issue here when an administration says we're going to dismiss you. We're going to marginalize you. That's not new in and of itself. Right?

All administrations will fight against their political opponents and say what they're doing is overly political; it's revenge; it's -- you know, it's trumped up in some way. Forgive the pun.

But here, it's being taken to a different degree and that there shouldn't be any questions whatsoever. We know with regard to the Mueller report that Congress absolutely has a role to look specifically into the obstruction of justice charges.

And how about looking to prevent this kind of interference in the future, active measures by Russia? That's what's so difficult.

But Congress also has to be careful to set priorities. And there is a tonnage to all of this investigation work. There's not a lot of political momentum behind it. It allows the president to keep luring them, luring them closer and then saying, "See, this is just revenge. They want to undo the effects of an election." That's a difficult position that Democrats find themselves in.

BERMAN: I'm struck by the first part of what you said, David. Committee Chair Lindsey Graham just told a witness to ignore the subpoena from another Republican committee chair.

GREGORY: Yes.

BERMAN: I'm not sure I've ever heard anything like that before. You?

GREGORY: Yes. I mean, it's -- but it's striking, because it's -- this is the one area where the president wants to marginalize Democrats coming after him, but these aren't Republicans. This is a Republican chair and a committee that's handled itself appropriately, even where there's been disagreement.

And for the head of the Judiciary Committee to start doling out really unhelpful advice, I'll put it charitably. And Lindsey Graham, who wants to be relevant for this administration, that's the difficulty. He wants to stay relevant instead of, you know, really asserting his job, which is to be kind of a more -- even if he's politically conservative, a centrist guy, someone who can represent all the institutions of government well. I don't think he's doing that at the moment.

CAMEROTA: Margaret, let's talk once again about, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has had a surprise change in travel plans. And so we're left trying to piece together the bread crumbs of what's happening and why there's different urgencies that seem to take him off-track.

So he's now going to Brussels instead of going to Moscow. And as we know, there's all sorts of things unfolding with Iran. But we haven't been given a lot of information about what's happening.

MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, Alisyn. That's right. This is sort of the second change of plans and itinerary that you've seen the secretary of state make within the last week or so.

And this all takes place against this backdrop where John Bolton on behalf of the White House and also the Pentagon announced that there would be this carrier deployment in the Middle East.

And we're hearing messaging both from the Pentagon, as well as from inside the White House and the NSC that this is actually based on real concerns, real vulnerabilities and a need for the U.S. to be prepared and get in position. But we don't know what it means.

And so there are a lot of questions not just from journalists, although we have many, but from members of Congress in both parties about what the new information is and about whether the U.S. is purely in a defensive position that will allow them flexibility, or whether this makes the U.S. or western allies much more vulnerable for a situation that could spin quickly toward more conflict.

I also want to say that what is also happening today is that the leader of Hungary is coming to the U.S. And when the president defies Congress, when the president kind of pushes for the courts to set new rules, he also sends signals to the rest of the world, to leaders -- some of them authoritarian leaders -- in other countries, both about their own conduct and about whether the U.S. president would support unilateral or authoritarian conduct in their own countries.

[07:10:15] So there's a lot to watch as we start this Monday.

BERMAN: What I'll be watching very closely is what they say in this meeting when they're together today. Because that's what really matters.

Sorry, David, I didn't mean to -- go ahead.

GREGORY: Just a point about Iran. I think it's worth laying out the -- kind of the strategic framework here that is -- that's difficult, that makes this a difficult problem. Because the administration pulled out of the Iran nuclear deal and now Iran is threatening to do the same and is putting pressure on European countries to -- to improve this situation.

Now these European countries, who are not getting along very well strategically with the Trump administration, are in effect, being asked to choose between the Iranian position and the U.S. position amid escalating tensions. It's going to be a very difficult diplomatic play here.

BERMAN: I've got to say, in many areas right now in international relations, the United States has gone further out on a limb and alone. You see it in Venezuela. You see it in North Korea. You see it with Iran, and you see it with China this morning. And I suppose we'll close on this, Seung Min. Because the president this morning is continuing to insist that China actually pays for the tariffs that the U.S. --

CAMEROTA: Tell that to Larry Kudlow. BERMAN: Tell it to Larry Kudlow. I mean, the fact of the matter is,

it does hurt the Chinese economy. There's no question about that. But it is U.S. importers and companies that pay the tariffs. That is not a matter of opinion. That is a water is wet fact.

And the president is struggling with that this morning as he defends U.S. actions, which may be defensible. The answer might be it's worth it. But that's a different argument than saying that China is the one paying for these tariffs.

KIM: Exactly, and these prices are passed down to all of us, the U.S. consumer. And that's why Republicans have been nervous about the increased rhetoric towards China in the last several -- in the last several days. And they were hoping that this tough posture would actually help the U.S.'s negotiating position, that it would help the president make a trade deal with China, clearly, by the end of the deadline on Friday. That did not happen. The tariffs have gone up.

But this also shows this precarious strategy that the president has had in going at it alone in some of these very difficult and tricky issues that he is navigating in his presidency.

You're seeing it with trade right now. That's making Republicans very nervous. You've also seen it with immigration and just several weeks ago when we were talking about how the president -- the president was circumventing Congress to try to, you know, obtain money for a border wall that Congress did not approve for him. And that -- now that money is tied up in the courts, and you're funneling money away from the Pentagon for this project.

So this is a president that -- who, you know, proclaimed in his presidential campaign that he alone could fix it. But he's certainly seeing the ramifications of that right now.

CAMEROTA: All right. We're watching Dow futures as we speak. They're --

GREGORY: And a quick --

CAMEROTA: Quickly, David.

GREGORY: Yes. The coda to this is what you're referring to, the Dow futures if we have a bad day on Wall Street. But I think the president, in all of these issues, he feels so emboldened right now because of the strength of the economy. He thinks the economy could withstand a hit from a trade war with China. He feels like he's got enough political momentum to ignore Congress. A lot of this comes from his feeling that the economy is strong enough that it gives him a lot of room to maneuver.

CAMEROTA: So Dow futures are down 300 as we speak. We'll see what happens closer to the open. Thank you all very much for all of the reporting.

OK. Another deadline for the Treasury Department and IRS to hand over President Trump's tax returns. What will Democrats do if the stonewalling continues today? We talk to a member of Congress next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:17:42] CAMEROTA: The Trump administration facing a new deadline to turn over six years of President Trump's tax returns to House Democrats. The chairman of the Ways and Means Committee issuing subpoenas to get the documents by this Friday. But what will Democrats do if that request is not met?

Joining us now is Congressman Dan Kildee. He serves on the House Ways and Means Committee.

Congressman, thanks so much for being here.

REP. DAN KILDEE (D-MI): Thank you.

CAMEROTA: OK, so your chair, Richard Neal, has issued subpoenas now to the commissioner of the IRS and to Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin. And if they don't comply, what's next?

KILDEE: Well, we will do whatever we have to do to enforce these subpoenas. This section of the tax code is very clear. The chair of the Ways and Means Committee has the absolute authority to order the delivery of a tax return to inform our deliberations on a legislative issue.

The chairman -- or I'm sorry, the secretary of the Treasury or the president or the IRS commissioner or some lawyer that the president hires, they don't get to choose what is a legitimate area of legislative inquiry. We are looking at this question as to how the IRS audits and enforces tax laws on the president of the United States. And we need this information to inform that deliberation.

CAMEROTA: But I think that Americans want to know what teeth these committees have. So if they don't comply because, as we know, the president has seemed very reluctant to comply ever since the Mueller report came out. So what does this mean? Fines? You hold somebody in contempt? Somebody goes to jail or not?

KILDEE: Well, the chairman will make that decision, because it's his authority.

My view is that we have a process to enforce a subpoena. The courts are there to enforce these legitimate legislative orders. This is something that is really plain language in the law that says that the chairman has the right to this information.

And it's really important that people understand. We are just really performing our check on the power of the presidency by examining whether or not legislation is required to make sure that the tax laws actually apply to him. This is not something that is, you know, anything other than us performing our constitutional obligation.

CAMEROTA: Some people have already suggested that Chairman Neal should hold Secretary Mnuchin in contempt. Do you agree?

KILDEE: I think we have to see what happens with the subpoena. We're going to give them a chance to comply.

CAMEROTA: If they don't comply by Friday, you think that he should hold the secretary in contempt?

KILDEE: I think the court would have to make a decision as to whether to enforce that subpoena. And then if -- if, in fact, they continue to deny what is a clear authority under the statute and under the Constitution, then we have to take everything, every step possible to enforce this -- this order.

CAMEROTA: President Trump says he won the election based in part, he thinks, on his lack of taxes. Here's what he wrote: "I won the 2016 election partially based on no tax returns while I am under audit, (which I still am)," he says, though he's provided no evidence of that, "and the voters didn't care. Now the radical left Democrats want to again relitigate this matter. Make it a part of the 2020 election!"

What's your response to that?

KILDEE: First of all, Mr. President, everything is not about the 2016 election. This is about the Constitution. This is not some election question. This is about whether or not we have the authority under the law to exercise our oversight responsibility.

He was elected president. A lot of us weren't happy about that, for sure. But we move on. And we try to work with him where we can. I certainly have. But that doesn't mean that we walk away. Because he won the election, that he can say, "I won," which gives him the justification to do anything he wants, to ignore the Constitution, to ignore really specific statutory language.

Yes, he won the election. He's the president. Now we have a Congress who, we also won our elections. We have our job to do. We read the same Constitution that he somehow fails to read. And we're not going to allow him to decide for himself as some sort of a dictator when the Constitution applies and when it doesn't.

CAMEROTA: How confident are you that your committee and/or voters will see these six years of President Trump's tax returns before the 2020 election?

KILDEE: I think ultimately we will.

CAMEROTA: You think that the time -- the timing works on your side, you think?

KILDEE: I think it does. I mean, who knows what the timing will be? But, you know, the law in this case is really clear. The president is trying to obfuscate that.

But if you read Section 6103 of the tax code, it doesn't say that the IRS may or shall or could deliver a tax return. It says that they will.

CAMEROTA: It says "shall," actually, "shall." KILDEE: It says "shall." It says "shall."

CAMEROTA: Which means will.

KILDEE: Right. And they absolutely have to do it, no question.

CAMEROTA: I know that your chairman has been consulting attorneys about this. Before he jumped into this process, he tried to have it all buttoned up legally and, in fact, moved more slowly than some other Democrats had hoped.

What is counsel telling you all about how long this will take in the courts?

KILDEE: We really don't have an idea. The hope is that they will comply with the subpoena. This is uncharted territory, though. And this is one of the reasons that the chairman, I think, has been properly but very deliberate about this. Very cautious, to make sure that we get this right; 6103 has always been followed. We haven't been down this path where the IRS commissioner or the secretary has denied a legitimate order. So we're making sure that we do it right.

CAMEROTA: Quickly, you disagree with the House judiciary chair, Jerry Nadler, who believes we are already in a constitutional crisis. How do you describe this moment in time?

KILDEE: Well, I think until we have a situation where we can't get a legitimate order enforced by the courts, we have to follow that process.

If, in fact, we come to a brick wall at that point in time, then obviously, we have to look at other -- other possibilities. And, you know, we have to make sure that the president understands that all possibilities are on the table. If he continues to deny our rightful role in this constitutional government that we have and the separation of powers, we will have to exercise every authority we have.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Dan Kildee, thank you very much for giving us a report on this Monday. We'll see what this week brings.

KILDEE: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: John.

BERMAN: All right. The Trump administration juggling several international crises -- that's plural -- at this hour. Iran, China, North Korea. Are there real strategies here on any of them? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:28:22] BERMAN: There's a whole lot brewing on the international stage this morning. The secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, touched down in Brussels just moments ago. He abruptly cancelled a trip to Moscow, rerouted the plane, essentially, before takeoff. The secretary's meeting with European allies amid escalating tensions with Iran. The United States has deployed a new round of Patriot missiles to the Middle East.

Joining us now is Michael Smerconish, host of CNN's "SMERCONISH" and a CNN political commentator.

So things are heating up, there's no question, between the U.S. and Iran. The United States claims that Iran has plans for attacks on U.S. interests overseas. European allies are asking, "Let's see, what exactly do you have here," and what does it mean for these rising tensions, Michael?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Would we be in this position if we had not unilaterally withdrawn from the Iranian nuclear agreement?

I mean, the question that I have is what really began the ratcheting up process? And it's hard not to come to the conclusion that we had the Iranians on ice, so to speak, for a decade; then we decided to dismantle that agreement to the best of our ability, put our thumb once again on the side of the Sunni scale with Saudi Arabia, despite what we've just seen from their leadership. And this is the result.

So I don't know that it's all that surprising that the dominoes would have fallen this way.

CAMEROTA: And Michael, do you have a sense of what is happening with Iran? I mean, it doesn't sound like, you know, members of Congress, for instance, are being that well-briefed on what's happening with this ratcheting up of tension.

SMERCONISH: Alisyn, it's -- it's beyond my comprehension. It's above my pay grade. But standing back and looking from the sidelines, it seemed like we had this situation quelled for at least a decade.

[07:30:00]