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Interview with House Democratic Caucus Chair Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY); Critical Week for Biden's $1.9 Trillion Pandemic Relief Package. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired February 08, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And it's a critical week for President Biden's $1.9 trillion relief package. Democrats also expected to unveil legislation today to increase child tax credits. And this morning, concerning new information about the spread of coronavirus variants. South Africa has now halted its AstraZeneca vaccine rollout after researchers found it offered only minimal protection against that variant.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are going to begin with the impeachment trial. Joining me is Congressman Hakeem Jeffries. He's the chair of the House Democratic Caucus, and he was an impeachment manager in the first trial of the former president. Congressman, thanks so much for being with us this morning. "The New York Times" reporting the trial at this point expected to last about a week. What can you tell us about the expected length of the trial?

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES, (D-NY): Well, that's still to be worked out as I understand it between the Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and the Senate Republicans, presumably with input from both the president's lawyers as well as the House impeachment managers.

But John, this is an open and shut case. We all have heard the president's inflammatory rhetoric throughout the duration of the final few months of his presidency. We all know that the president lied about the election, said that it was stolen from him, held "Stop the Steal" rallies, perpetrated the big lie that resulted in the mob coming to Washington, which he summoned. He then inflamed and incited the mob, and then directed them to march on the Capitol. And we saw what happened with deadly consequences of violent attacks on the citadel of our democracy. It's an open and shut case.

BERMAN: You say it's an open and shut case. I also know you have been speaking with the current House managers, talking to them about your experience. What have they told you, or what information do you have about whether they will call witnesses to make that open and shut case that you just described?

JEFFRIES: Well, they'll make that ultimate determination. And my conversations with them, of course, have been confidential, but we haven't discussed witnesses. We've just discussed an overall approach. And I believe that they are prepared to make a compelling case with a lot of evidence that they're going to present in terms of the accountability that rests with Donald Trump. This would not have happened had Donald Trump not perpetrated the big lie. No reasonable person can argue to the contrary.

BERMAN: What is the most compelling piece of evidence that you think exists to make your case?

JEFFRIES: Well, I'm not going to get out ahead of the House impeachment managers in that regard. But we do know that this was a violent attack on the Capitol. American blood was spilled. Officer Sicknick died. Urine and feces was left behind. The Capitol was desecrated. The mob was there to assassinate Nancy Pelosi, hang Mike Pence, and hunt down members of Congress, all to stop the peaceful transfer of power prevent the certification of Joe Biden as the 46th president of the United States of America. And every single one of those senators, whether they are a Democrat or a Republican, yes, they are sitting in a court of impeachment. They were also witnesses and victims.

BERMAN: Ben Ginsberg, who is a prominent Republican lawyer, not a fan of President Trump, former President Trump, I should tell you, he says there is one missing piece of testimony here that could help the House managers' case, and that's testimony to what the president was thinking, what the president was thinking during the insurrection, itself, while these people were invading the Capitol. How important do you think that piece of evidence is as to the president's state of mind, what he was thinking and saying at that moment?

JEFFRIES: Well, I do think that's important. But we do know what he was thinking. As myself and several of my House colleagues who were actually in a secure location because the mob had violently assaults the Capitol and we needed to be evacuated in the midst of debating the false objections that House Republicans were articulating with respect to the state of Arizona at the time. Donald Trump came out of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and told us what he was thinking. He again lied, and he did not strongly urge his followers to stand down, because I think it was clear he wanted to see what was happening. He ignited that fire, poured gasoline on it, and then I think may have even refused to send the firefighters to put out the blaze.

[08:05:02]

BERMAN: Do you need to prove that? Do you need to prove that? You just made a claim there that he refused to let the firefighters put out the blaze. Do you need to prove that?

JEFFRIES: No, John. I said he may have even. And so I think that's something that should be explored during the trial. It's not necessary to prove, but it's just additive in terms of the president's reckless conduct that I believe took place, which showed a depraved indifference to human life. Why do we think that Vice President Mike Pence barely spoke to him during remaining week or so of Donald Trump's presidency? It's because he knows Donald Trump was responsible for what took place. That's why.

BERMAN: The former president's lawyer, Bruce Castor, we know that the House managers are going to put together a video presentation which pieces together the former president's words with the words of the people who invaded the Capitol. The former president's lawyer saying, yes, well, they have video, too. Listen to what he says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE CASTOR, DONALD TRUMP'S LAWYER: There is an awful lot of tape of cities burning and courthouses being attacked and federal agents being assaulted by rioters in the street cheered on by Democrats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Your response to that, Congressman?

JEFFRIES: It's sad and pathetic, and shows that the president really doesn't really have any meaningful defense to the fact that he incited a violent insurrection that resulted in the spilling of American blood. And so when all else fails, play the race card. That's been the M.O. of this president long before he was actually president. This is the same person who for five years perpetrated the racist lie that Barack Obama was not born in the United States of America as a part of an effort to delegitimize America's first black president, and many people believe he then rode that big lie into the White House. Now he then rode a lie out of the White House that he was actually elected, which was not the case. He lost big time to Donald Trump -- I mean to Joe Biden. And that resulted in the events that we saw on January 6th.

BERMAN: You are the House Democratic Caucus Chair. The Republican Caucus Chair is Liz Cheney. And as you know, she voted to impeach the president of the United States, and she spoke out against him even yesterday. What conversations have you had with your Republican counterpart?

JEFFRIES: Well, I'm not going to share any private conversations that I've had with Republican Conference Chair Liz Cheney. But she voted consistent with her principles and her beliefs, which she continues to articulate. Chairwoman Cheney is an authentic conservative, I think voted with Donald Trump 90-plus percent of the time on policy. But as she's indicated, the impeachment vote was a vote of conscience. And this was an extraordinary abuse of power that costs lives and was designed to halt the peaceful transfer of power perpetrated by Donald Trump. And so Liz Cheney's words speaks for themselves, and I was pleased to see that she decisively held on to her chairpersonship last week.

BERMAN: The House Ways and Means Committee chaired by Massachusetts Congressman Richie Neal will apparently propose today or make clear a plan for a pretty large child tax credit. We're talking up to $3,600 depending on where the income is. This is a big piece of legislation and could be a big piece of this $1.9 trillion relief plan. What's the goal with this? And how permanent do you think it should be?

JEFFRIES: Well, thank you, John, for asking that question, because we as House Democrats have been focused on trying to decisively address the COVID-19 pandemic that has brought so much pain and suffering and death to the American people, and we know that poor children, low income children have disproportionately suffered the adverse impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic. And so this is a part of the continuing effort to be big and bold and our response.

Joe Biden, who has provided great leadership here, along with Speaker Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, have said, we need to build back better. That means we can't go back to the normal that existed prior to the pandemic, because normal was problematic for so many low income children and working families, middle class folks and those who aspire to be a part of the middle class. And so I wholeheartedly support this effort in terms of the child tax credit. It will, by the account of many economists, be one of the most important things that we can do to eliminate or alleviate substantially child poverty in America. This is the wealthiest country in the world. The least we can do to try to take this meaningful step.

BERMAN: Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, we appreciate you being with us this morning. We look forward to speaking with you again as this trial progresses and as this legislation works its way through the House. Thank you.

[08:10:10]

JEFFRIES: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: Joining us now, CNN legal analyst and Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsberg. Ben, I continue to be curious/surprised how little we know of the nuts and bolts of the process of an impeachment trial of a former president of the United States. This is big history we're going to see in less than 24 hours. We don't know how long it's going to last. We don't know if there are going to be witnesses. We don't know even the structure of the rules in place here. And I am wondering why, first of all, and I'm wondering if you have thoughts as to why, if this is intentional on the Democrats part. What possibly could they be getting from this?

BEN GINSBERG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think this is actually pretty traditional, John, that the majority and the minority leaders work out the rules of the trial. I doubt if the senators or even the House managers are quite as in the dark as we are. I think they do it in part because if they were to put out these ground rules ahead of time, there would be a lot of public comment on whether they were fair to one side or another. But these rules are sort of steeped in the history of impeachments, and they are likely to perhaps not come out until 12:30 tomorrow just before the proceedings start.

CAMEROTA: Ben, you have seen the same, what looks to the layperson, as a mountain of evidence, that the mob felt that they were at the Capitol because of President Trump. They say time and again that they were following instructions. What advice did you give House managers for what to do starting tomorrow?

GINSBERG: I think we need to focus the states on the 50 Republican senators, 45 of which have shown in the preliminary vote a reluctance to vote to convict President Trump. And the way to get to them is to present more evidence that has appeared before on tying him directly to the mob. Yes, there are certainly members of the mob who said they were there because of Donald Trump. You need the conversations in which Donald Trump told organizers at the march, here's what you need to do. Go into the Capitol if you think that it works, go in there and tell them that America is not knocking on the doorstep. Or you need somebody who is in the White House with him on Tuesday afternoon the way John questioned Congressman Jeffries.

BERMAN: Another argument they're going to need to blunt, the House managers, is the defense case that this is somehow unconstitutional. And the managers got a boost over the weekend from a Republican, not just a Republican, a very conservative attorney, Chuck Cooper, who he last saw in a public setting defending John Bolton, keeping John Bolton from testifying in the last impeachment trial. And Cooper writes that the ideal that this is unconstitutional is bunk. Let me read you part of what he says. He says "a vote by the Senate to disqualify can be taken only after the officer has been removed and is by definition a former officer. Given the Constitution permits the Senate to impose the penalty of permanent disqualification only on former officeholders, it defies logic to suggest that the Senate is prohibited from trying and convicting former officeholders." I wonder what you think of the merits of his argument, Ben, also the impact of it coming from someone like Cooper?

GINSBERG: Well, I do agree with the merits of the argument, and coming from Chuck Cooper, who has represented many of the conservative senator who's are the potential swing jury pool is going to be very meaningful. But it's important to remember this is a question about whether a former president can be impeached. That has never been litigated, never been tried, and in fact in other settings, the courts, the Supreme Court said we're not really going to mess with the impeachment proceedings because they are strictly of congressional function under the Constitution.

So the bottom line is that the argument of whether this is unconstitutional or not comes down to a political vote by the senators. Now, Chuck Cooper's argument is very persuasive, and potentially has impact. So it is a combination of the Republican senators feeling really embarrassed to have to stand up for Donald Trump, not only for the riot, but also for his charges of there being fraudulent elections, and his desecration of the process and the peaceful transfer of power, plus that argument actually taking some root.

BERMAN: Ben Ginsberg, thank you as always for helping us understand what we are hearing.

GINSBERG: Thank you.

[08:15:00]

BERMAN: So President Biden's $1.9 trillion relief package facing a critical week. We have new details about what will be announced today, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: You are looking at live pictures of Air Force One. This is President Joe Biden about to depart Delaware to head back to Washington for a very busy week.

The President's $1.9 trillion pandemic relief package is facing a critical week. We'll get into the details now. Joining us is CNN White House correspondent John Harwood.

John, great to see you. Before we get into the details of what they're going to do to ready this $1.9 trillion package, have there been conversations with Republicans, or for all intents and purposes is that effort over?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think it continues to go on while Democrats move through that process of setting up a reconciliation package, which they can pass with only Democratic votes.

The President hadn't foreclosed those conversations. But it does seem pretty clear Republicans are not likely certainly in sufficient numbers to overcome a Senate filibuster to meet him anywhere close that he can make a deal.

He said on Friday they are just not willing to go as high as I think they need to go. Now, as the process moves forward and Republicans see that it's going to pass anyway, that's where people who want to influence the process may have conversations and may ultimately decide to vote for the package.

But the point is, Joe Biden doesn't need their votes, and he is not waiting for their votes. It's sort of up to them in how they respond with their next step.

[08:20:14]

BERMAN: And it is moving ahead, very quickly this week and a lot of it will happen behind closed doors even as there is an impeachment trial going on.

One of the things we are going to hear about today is this idea for a very big child tax credit, a boost of a child tax credit. This is coming from the House of Representatives. I guess, it's not a hundred percent clear it will be a part of the $1.9 trillion plan, but I would bet on it, John.

Why is this so significant? Because this would have a huge impact on a lot of people.

HARWOOD: Well, the increase on the child tax credit, the increase in the earned income tax credit, which is all contemplated as a part of Joe Biden's plans, those are permanent changes that would have the effect of changing the economic fortunes of large numbers of low income American families.

Some of the elements of the package, those $1,400.00 checks are one- time things and that's not -- that is going to have a transitory effect to try to get them to the other side of this pandemic. But there is a lot of long-term policy that is in this plan and certainly will be in the following up infrastructure plan. So Joe Biden is set up right now to have a consequential first couple

months of his presidency, and you know, we have talked about the impeachment trial as a potential distraction or impediment. It also has the effect, I think, as it goes on as House Committees do their work and Senate staff continues to move their process along, it also has the effect of reminding Democrats of the stakes and the nature of their opposition, and that has a unifying effect.

We have not seen deep cracks in this Democratic coalition so far.

CAMEROTA: Part of why Joe Biden and the Democrats want to move with alacrity, the clock is ticking, their goal as I understand it is to have this done, the huge relief package by March 14th because that's the date when Federal unemployment payments run out.

HARWOOD: That's right, and appears that they can meet that challenge. Nancy Pelosi, the House Speaker, has said she is going to get a bill to the Senate by the end of February and with these filibuster approved procedures, the Senate should be able to move it forward.

You know, there is some debate on the Democratic side, some liberal economists are saying well, maybe the package doesn't have to be so big, maybe those checks can be smaller or more targeted, and that's a legitimate debate.

It hasn't cracked the Democratic unity yet. The same thing with issues like the minimum wage or some of the protocol issues. Joe Manchin being concerned that the Vice President had done interviews in his home state, all those things have been at the level of minor irritants so far, but nobody right now is holding back their support, and there is no indication that the Democrats are not going to be able move this package.

BERMAN: John, you wrote a really interesting piece over the weekend that describes the decision or the analysis of the Biden White House is making about the Republicans, about which Republican Party this is.

Is this a Republican Party that can work with this White House? Or is willing to in anyway or is it the party of the former President that just wants to blow things up?

To a certain extent, it is the discussion the Republicans are having about themselves, but the White House is trying to figure it out as they are deciding how much effort to make? Which way do you see this going?

HARWOOD: Well, right now, Joe Biden is leaning toward pushing ahead without them, but the COVID relief debate is only a part of that discussion. We have that discussion again when the proposal hits the infrastructure plan and down the line when Democrats move other things that are important to them, like voting rights legislation.

Do they decide to bypass or short-circuit or end the filibuster in the Senate in order to move those packages? They've got to decide: are the Republicans a reasonable counterparty to the Democrats, people that we can do business with? We've seen so far that the bare minimum of 10 Republicans who would be

needed to overcome a filibuster made an offer initially which was not anywhere close to Joe Biden's offer. That is a bridge that cannot be joined at this point, so that's why Democrats are moving ahead.

But that issue is going to come up over and over and over again, and when you see the Republicans grass roots, Republican Party's censuring Members of Congress like Liz Cheney who have said look at the facts, look what happened. It wasn't Antifa, it was inspired by the President.

If you've got a major political party that's not willing to look at that reality, Democrats are going to have to ask themselves, can we really do business with them? That's going to be a recurring issue throughout Joe Biden's first year.

CAMEROTA: John Harwood, thank you very much for all the reporting and analysis.

Okay. Do you remember this video? This is a Target store. It was last summer and it captured a woman -- actually she captured herself on a cell phone -- she was a follower of QAnon, and she was destroying a rack of face masks. Because I guess they're a part of the Deep State.

Anyway, she snapped out of it, after this. She tells us why she decided to abandon the conspiracy theories, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:29:07]

CAMEROTA: An Arizona woman says last year she became brainwashed by QAnon conspiracy theories which led to this scene she made in Target at a display of facemasks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been looking forward to this [bleep] all my [bleep] life, so Target, I am not paying [bleep]. This [bleep]. [Bleep] over. This [bleep] --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: That video went viral and her long fall down the QAnon rabbit hole nearly cost her, her marriage and her career.

Joining us now is that woman, Melissa Rein Lively. Melissa, what a story. Oh my gosh. Good to see you. Thanks for being here.

Melissa, what was happening in that video that you were seeing where you were destroying that rack of facemasks? What were you trying to accomplish?

[08:30:09]